Talk:Israeli demolition of Palestinian property

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Arutz Sheva as a source[edit]

I am confident the editors can find a better source for the claim that home demolitions are a deterrent. While this issue is contested, there must be stronger sources that argue for the deterrence theory. Whatever your personal feelings are, I advise editors to prefer the most persuasive and authoritative sources available - Arutz Sheva is not one of these. Seraphimsystem (talk)

Clear up of old material[edit]

This very dated material (15 years old) is moved from the article here in case it should ever be of use:-

According to the Israeli human rights organization B'Tselem:

  • From October 2001 to December 2005, Israel has demolished 668 homes as punishment, leaving 4,182 people homeless.[1]
  • Israel has demolished 1,746 homes for alleged military purposes since B'Tselem started keeping statistics in this category in 2004.[2]
  • According to the UN, about 1,500 homes were demolished by the IDF in the Rafah area in the period 2000–2004.[3]

In November 2008, B'Tselem filmed an armed Israeli Policeman wearing a riot helmet headbutt a Palestinian women. The confrontation occurred during a protest, after the Jerusalem municipality destroyed two houses because it said they were built without permission.[4]

Statistics for Jerusalem[edit]

Demolitions[edit]

Statistics have been compiled by ICAHD recording the number of demolitions of existing houses in the two parts of Jerusalem. According to ICAHD, there are many more building violations in the western (Jewish) parts of Jerusalem, but the great majority of actual demolitions are carried out in the eastern (Palestinian) parts. ICAHD statistics on house demolitions in Jerusalem were cited in the "2005 County Reports on Human Rights Practices" by the United States Department of State.[5] For 2004 and 2005 ICAHD's figures are as follows:

2004 2005
West Jerusalem East Jerusalem West Jerusalem East Jerusalem
Infractions 5583 1386 5653 1272
Charges filed 980 (18%) 780 (56%) 1529 (27%) 857 (67%)
Administrative demolishing orders 50 216 approximately 40 approximately 80
Demolitions 13 (0.2%) 114 (8.2%) 26 (0.45%) 76 (5.97%)

ICAHD's report[6] further claims that building inspectors record only a small proportion of the infractions in West Jerusalem (usually illegal extensions or porches), and say that no entire residential building in the Western section has ever received demolition orders or been demolished. ICAHD claims that: "The Jerusalem Municipality expropriates land, prevents preparation of a town planning scheme for Palestinian neighborhoods, and refuses to grant building permits, causing a severe housing shortage, forcing residents to build without a permit, after which the Ministry of Interior and the Municipality demolish the houses, so the residents move into homes outside the city, and then the Ministry of Interior revokes their residency and banishes them from the city forever".[7]

ICAHD's conclusions have been disputed by the Israeli Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, who argue on their website that the larger number of Palestinian demolitions is simply because many more Palestinian homes have been built illegally. They claim to have "document[ed] a pattern of politically-motivated behavior and criminal profiteering that characterizes much of the construction in the Arab sector of the Holy City",[8] notwithstanding the punitive house demolitions, which have been effective as a deterrent against terrorism by means of a 'significant decrease' Palestinian terrorists attacks.[9]

Permits[edit]

Statistics quoted by CAMERA[10] and FMEP:[11]

2001[11] 2003[10] 2004[10] 2005[10]
West Jerusalem East Jerusalem West Jerusalem East Jerusalem West Jerusalem East Jerusalem West Jerusalem East Jerusalem
Permits requested 1519 219 1719 138 2079 224 2256 265
Permits approved 1087 191 1425 118 1579 116 1717 135
Ratio 72% 87% 83% 85% 76% 52% 76% 53%

Though the statistics do not show the nationality of the permit requestee nor the nationality of the land owner, CAMERA argues that these figures show that the denial of permits to Arabs and Jews is not based on the ethnicity of the applicant, but instead is generally meant to uphold Israeli master plans and building codes.[10]

In contrast, Amnesty International highlight in these figures the small number of Palestinian permit requests (only about 10 percent of the Israeli requests), and argue that this is indicative of the tiny (and ever-shrinking) percentage of land that the Palestinians have available for their use.[12] In 2008 Nicoletta Dimova wrote in the Palestine-Israel Journal that "today, the city's Palestinians are only allowed to build on about 9% of the 17,600 acres of land comprising East Jerusalem",[13] the remainder having been expropriated by Israeli authorities for use by Israeli settlers or as land where Israel currently permits no construction.

References

  1. ^ B'Tselem, B'Tselem - House demolitions as punishment - Statistics:
  2. ^ B'Tselem, B'Tselem - Demolition for Alleged Military Purposes - Statistics:
  3. ^ Cite error: The named reference Israeli troops raze Rafah houses was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  4. ^ Bowcott, Owen (2008-11-25). "Israeli policeman headbutts woman in Palestinian demolition clashes - Human rights group B'Tselem films violence at demonstrations as police move in to destroy 'illegal' homes". The Guardian. London. Retrieved 2008-11-25. {{cite news}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)
  5. ^ 2005 Country Reports on Human Rights Practices, Israel and the occupied territories, United States Department of State, 8 March 2006
  6. ^ Cite error: The named reference Icahd was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  7. ^ Chronology of Permit Applications, Demolitions & Rebuilding Archived 2007-05-24 at the Wayback Machine ICAHD, Oct. 2, 2003
  8. ^ Cite error: The named reference JCPA was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  9. ^ Cite error: The named reference EffectfulTerroristsHomeDemolitions was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  10. ^ a b c d e Washington Post Watch CAMERA, February, 2007
  11. ^ a b Building Permits Issued in Jerusalem Archived 2008-05-11 at the Wayback Machine FMEP, 2001
  12. ^ Cite error: The named reference Amnesty-theft was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  13. ^ When Ideology Leads to Destruction: Home Demolitions in East Jerusalem Palestine-Israel Journal, 2008

"Although revoked by the British"...But started by who?[edit]

The section about punitive demolition says the policy was stopped by the British, but fails to say it was started by who. Was it started by Israel, by the Ottoman Empire, by the British? Mystery...

To be honest, the actual start date and the original legislator who started the policy of punitive house demolition is more important than the fact that in 1948 the policy was stopped by the British just before they stopped administering the region, to be started again by Israel right when they started administering their side of the region.

Since the British started it it should state : "The British administration introduced the policy of punitive house demolitions during the Great Arab Rebellion of 1936-39. The British used home demolitions to respond to Arab acts of sabotage. and stopped it at the end of their mandate in 1948 (https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/72837601.pdf). Israel reinstated the policy in 1948 at its formation." Patrick.N.L (talk) 10:52, 9 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The article is about the Israeli practice, more detailed information besides the citations about the British practice could be included in 1936–1939 Arab revolt in Palestine or perhaps Mandate Palestine.Selfstudier (talk) 16:47, 9 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Incorrect citation in the lead paragraph[edit]

The source citing 50000 demolitions is an account since 1947. However the lead sentence sets up the scope of the article as since 1967. This is incredibly misleading, and I noticed it because reading other numbers in the article 50000 didn't seem to add up. Also, the article purports to be about housing and there is a conflation between housing and structures.

This being in the lead of the article I feel is misinformation. I suggest that it be removed and replaced with a more accurate account of the houses that have been destroyed by the Israel government. 2601:240:C400:1480:415A:4DF6:4766:4D0C (talk) 21:52, 7 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

An editor incorrectly changed the lead opener to include a link to House Demolitions, property does not only mean houses, see Statistics section and the ICAHD stats. The ICAHD article does discuss demolition since 1947 but if that were the case, even only homes would amount to 131,000. I changed the url and updated the figure post 67. Selfstudier (talk) 22:31, 7 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Detached sentence in the "In favour" section[edit]

In the list in the In favour section of Justification and criticism, it currently states:

"The following types are labeled as "precautionary demolitions" by Benmelech, Berrebi and Klor, however punishing they may feel to the impacted families."

Tha sentence seems detached:

  • What "following types"?
  • Who are Benmelech, Berrebi and Klor? - A bit if googling suggests their common trait is being scholars; if that's the point, it should be in the sentence.

Overall, I think the sentence doesn't provide value in the article, but causes confusion; so I suggest we remove the item from the "In favour" list.

Troels Arvin (talk) Troels Arvin (talk) 11:19, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

IT refers to the following bullet points, which I have indented a level to clarify this. All the best: Rich Farmbrough 13:44, 27 March 2024 (UTC).[reply]

Removed from criticism section[edit]

"According to the UN, about 1,500 homes were demolished by the IDF just in the Rafah area in the period 2000–2004.[1]"

  1. ^ "Israeli troops raze Rafah houses". BBC News. 2004-08-12. Archived from the original on 2022-03-18. Retrieved 2010-05-04.

This, if needed, should go in the history section, which is currently a terrible mess. The word "just" should be removed, these types of weasel words are a plague on articles of this type.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough 13:44, 27 March 2024 (UTC).[reply]

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