Talk:F. W. Murnau

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Biography assessment rating comment[edit]

WikiProject Biography Assessment

The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Yamara 13:07, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Rumor[edit]

A nice way to smear a man is to report rumors about him. Who was in the car observing Murnau before he died? The homosexual interest group had to include their little piece of gossip in order to have it appear that their preferred behavior is widespread and acceptable.Lestrade 12:39, 29 June 2006 (UTC)Lestrade[reply]

"The homosexual interest group"? Damn, why don't I ever get invited to these things?
The article does state the verifiable facts: he did die in a car accident and Stevenson was driving the car. It also states the widely circulated rumor about what caused the accident, but does note quite clearly that it is only a rumor and gives its source as Hollywood Babylon. There's no support for the claim and it's surely false, but it is well known and has become part of the Murnau myth.
Or are you going further than that and saying that merely insinuating he was gay is a smear? But Murnau was gay. It was a well-kept secret in Hollywood, but then again, he wasn't in Hollywood very long. Back in Germany, it was widely known. Comparatively speaking, Wiemar Germany was a pretty good time and place to be out, as is evident from the numerous openly gay-themed films to come from it (Different From the Others, Michael, Pandora's Box, Sex in Chains, Diary of a Lost Girl, etc), and Murnau was known to mix in the various gay theatrical circles there. Murnau's own films, while by no means explicit, have the running theme of forbidden and ill-fated love. This isn't an example of revisionist history and certainly isn't a "smear". --Franz 13:23, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It is already stated in the article elsewhere that Murnau was Homosexual. But the death section is straight up offensive to homosexuals and heterosexuals alike. It blames his death on being homosexual (which is persecutory, and a form of victim blaming)instead of being in an automobile accident. Hairpin78 (talk) 15:51, 25 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

So would the events leading up to the death be relevant (and non victim blamey) if it had been a woman giving head to a man? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.222.123.30 (talk) 08:23, 10 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

remove that gossip[edit]

Why is that stupid gossip still in the page? The book where you can find that "information" is full of stupid rumors and legends. Murnau is one of the most important film director of all times, who don't deserves this treatment. The sexuality of this person is not important, we can write a lot about murnau's filmography but someone thinks that his sexual life is more important. This page offends not only murnau, but wikipedia.

There isn't a logical and plausible way to demonstrate that Murnau was doing a fellatio on the car driver, this rumor probably born from the ancient (stupid and racist) mentality that all gay people are pedophilians. So i remove it.

Bobbore

The New York Times article (mar 12, 1931) clearly states that only Murnau was killed in this accident. His valet, Garcia Stevenson, identified in the article as E. Garcia, did NOT die.

Sdave —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.147.236.194 (talk) 12:56, 14 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

He was incredibly tall, which helps to explain why he died in the accident, having fracturated his skull.85.243.17.173 (talk) 15:56, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Camera nonsense[edit]

"In films prior to The Last Laugh the camera was used solely as a stationary device, this feature was the first to incorporate techniques that involved camera movement, such as tracking shots, pans, tilts, and zooms." -- Anyone who has seen more than a few silent films knows that this is nonsense. All of these techniques were used well before TLL, tracking being particularly common. What makes TLL unique is the very advanced use of the techniques throughout the film, often to marked psychological effect.

Not very balanced[edit]

The third paragraph of the 'German Films' section sounds like it was copied from the back of the DVD box. I think that it is too positive, words like carefully composed and innovative and memorable performance are not objective, but too biased. Anyone agree it needs fixing? Benbenthehen (talk) 13:26, 6 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

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Homosexual[edit]

Wow! Where to begin? For one, the link provided DOES NOT say he was gay. It says there were suspicions by someone that he might be. Everyone suspected me of being gay too, until I finally got married and had a half a dozen kids!

Secondly...who cares? Why is it there is no "straight film directors" tag? That is discrimination.

Why is it wikipedia is also going and saying all famous dead Germans are gay now? This is clearly racism! It's as bad as using the racist term "vandalism" on their page! 73.220.34.167 (talk) 19:15, 8 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Removed the "openly gay" bit. Why is his sexual preference relevant to studying philology? It is not. Additionally, even IF he were gay (what is with this gay agenda creeping into every article?), the link states "For his part, he never made it a public theme." So that is actually the OPPOSITE of being "openly gay". By the way, why do we not point out actors that are openly straight?73.220.34.167 (talk) 20:05, 8 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Who cares ? You, apparently. Murnau was homosexual. His page mention it. That's all. What is with this new homophobic nationalist german agenda ? Everyone suspected Thomas Man of being straight with his 6 children too, but actually he wasn't, by his own admission. If you call "gay agenda" the truth, do what you want, but the homophobic agenda is at least not better. Frimoussou (talk) 14:34, 21 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I tried to delete the random statement that he was a homosexual since it was totally random even if it's true anyway. But of course it was undone by someone because "it was not constructive." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.32.47.158 (talk) 12:33, 4 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Deleting sourced material is certainly not constructive editing, in this case you deleted the material but left the three very reliable academic references effectively orphaned and confused the reading and meaning of the text. If you have reliable sources that verify that Murnau was not homosexual then by all means add that material or use this talk page to discuss the proposition. Otherwise please refrain from removing material because it doesn't further your agenda here in Wiki. Pjefts (talk) 15:49, 4 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Murnau's homosexuality is a documented fact. He was the lover of several men, like Walter Spies, the homosexual man who left him in 1923 to go to the Dutch West Indies. Get over it. ^^ 194.153.110.6 (talk) 10:19, 6 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

On top of things.[edit]

1. Was the man's stolen skull ever located and returned to his tomb?

2. What became of the death mask that Garbo owned?

Thank you, Wordreader (talk) 04:42, 23 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Grossly exaggerated height[edit]

Pjefts insists on claiming 6 ft 11 because a book written in the 70s says it so it must be true. It's an obvious inaccuracy, a myth, does he look near 7 ft tall here [1] ? If he was those kids would be the size of grown adults. A 1928 edition of Theatre Magazine described him as "six feet, four inches in height", that looks nearer the truth. We should try to make this site as accurate as possible. If you reworded it to "xxx claimed that Murnau was 6 ft 11 that would at least be a compromise, has no place in the infobox and treated as fact when it's common sense it's not true.81.104.175.138 (talk) 12:42, 17 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Janet Gaynor (whom Murnau directed in Sunrise: A Song of Two Humans) described him as being about 6'4" when she was interviewed in the 70s for the TV series "Hollywood" (at 28.59 [2]; Gaynor would surely would have remembered if he was nearly 7 feet tall). I think both these sources clear that up. Crisso (talk) 13:41, 20 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Open grave[edit]

As this disturbance was not an isolated incident, the cemetery managers are considering sealing the grave.

So the "cemetery managers" are still "considering" after five years? 2A02:AA1:1617:D3BC:C5ED:BA69:A791:44EF (talk) 23:29, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Lack of primary source on Murnau's alleged homosexuality[edit]

I've searched far and wide looking for a primary source on Murnau's supposed homosexuality, but I've come up with nothing. I've went though the sources in this page, and they all lead to a trail that eventually ended at Hollywood Babylon as a the first source mentioning this, a book that has had numerous claims debunked over the decades. Unless anyone can provide a more reliable primary source that proves he was a homosexual, then it's safe to assume there is no evidence Murnau was gay and this article should be updated to reflect this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Torch5011 (talk • contribs) 04:36, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

These claims are also mentioned in the December 1957 issue of Cahiers du Cinéma. The issue features an article by Anger titled "Hollywood, ou le comportement des mortels", which seems to basically be a section taken straight out of Babylon, though published two-years prior. Obviously still not even close to a primary source, but at least dates it back a *little* further. --Double - U (talk) 14:32, 7 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Also of note, David Rollings claimed in interviews that Murnau asked to see and photograph him naked.[1] Not to mention the publication of Murnau's private photographs include nude photos of Rollings.[2] Doesn't prove anything, but then I'm not sure what would in this case, you're hardly going to get a handwritten note from Murnau saying "Yes, I'm gay". Indeed, speculating on a person's sexuality is a bit iffy to begin with, but at the very least you could see how, if he weren't gay, this might start gossip. I'm generally inclined to believe he likely was gay, however. The lack of primary sources in a case like this shouldn't be much of a surprise, the closet was deep and dark in those days. As you rightly say, Hollywood Babylon itself is far from a reliable source, though it does of course have truths sprinkled in there. But then, Babylon being unreliable is common knowledge to any film historian worth their salt, so the fact that they'll pick the book apart and call out every baseless story but still hang on to this detail about Murnau leads me to believe it has at least some credence. Certainly, "most likely false" is going a bit far in my opinion. Double - U (talk) 17:59, 7 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You're right, describing it as "most likely false" was perhaps a bit too uncompromising of a stance. I was so committed to fighting "citogenesis" that I didn't stop and consider any alternative perspectives. Anyhow, thanks for correcting me and providing sources. Take care! Torch5011 (talk) 23:18, 8 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Tony Villecco, Silent Stars Speak: Interviews with Twelve Cinema Pioneers (Jefferson, NC: McFarland, 2001), p. 166.
  2. ^ Friedrich Wilhelm Murnau: Die privaten Fotografien 1926–1931 Berlin, Amerika,Südsee, ed. Guido Altendorf et. al.(Munich: Schirmer/Mosel, 2013)

Garcia Stevenson[edit]

How come the Garcia Stevenson date of birth given here shows a man in his thirties in 1931, while he's mostly described (for instance in German WP) as a 14 year old, or as a "young man" (in Lotte Eisner's book)? 2A02:AA1:101C:C6F8:9DE2:AECB:2AA6:80C8 (talk) 20:03, 20 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"The driver was Eliazar Garcia Stevenson, Murnau’s approximately thirty-one-year-old valet, with John R. Freeland, a twenty-six-year-old chauffeur employed by the car rental company, in the passenger seat." [1] Double - U (talk) 22:12, 20 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Welter, Volker M. “SCHLOSS MURNAU, HOLLYWOODLAND, CA 90068.” Cabinet 63 (2017): 41-9.
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