User talk:VenHongyang

Welcome!

Hello, VenHongyang, and Welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions to this free encyclopedia. If you decide that you need help, check out Getting Help below, ask me on my talk page, or place {{Help me}} on your talk page and ask your question there. Please remember to sign your name on talk pages by using four tildes (~~~~) or by clicking if shown; this will automatically produce your username and the date. Also, please do your best to always fill in the edit summary field with your edits. Below are some useful links to facilitate your involvement. Happy editing! XLinkBot (talk) 22:45, 9 September 2012 (UTC) Getting started A tutorial • Our five pillars • Getting mentored How to: Edit a page • Upload and use images • Create your first article Intuitive guide to Wikipedia • Article Creation Wizard Getting help Frequently asked questions • Tips Where to ask questions or make comments Request administrator attention Help desk: A Wiki Styled page to ask questions on Help directory: A comprehensive list-style help contents page Policies and guidelines Neutral point of view • No original research Verifiability • Reliable sources • Citing sources What Wikipedia is not • Biographies of living persons List of policies • Three-revert rule • Sock puppetry Copyrights • Policy for non-free content • Image use policy External links • Spam • Vandalism • List of guidelines Deletion policy • Conflict of interest • Notability The community Build consensus • Resolve disputes Assume good faith • Civility • Etiquette No personal attacks • No legal threats Community portal • Village pump Signpost • IRC channels • Mailing lists Writing articles Be bold in editing • Develop an article The perfect article • Simplified manual of style Stubs • Categories • Disambiguation Peer review • Featured content Miscellaneous User pages • Talk pages Awards a registered contributor can achieve and award Clean up: General • Spam • Vandalism Join a WikiProject • Translation Useful templates • Tools • User scripts

September 2012

Welcome to Wikipedia. Although everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia, your addition of one or more external links to the page Pure Land Buddhism has been reverted.
Your edit here to Pure Land Buddhism was reverted by an automated bot that attempts to remove links which are discouraged per our external links guideline. The external link(s) you added or changed (https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.3386147454924.2131947.1306657726&type=3) is/are on my list of links to remove and probably shouldn't be included in Wikipedia.
If you were trying to insert an external link that does comply with our policies and guidelines, then please accept my creator's apologies and feel free to undo the bot's revert. However, if the link does not comply with our policies and guidelines, but your edit included other, constructive, changes to the article, feel free to make those changes again without re-adding the link. Please read Wikipedia's external links guideline for more information, and consult my list of frequently-reverted sites. For more information about me, see my FAQ page. Thanks! --XLinkBot (talk) 22:45, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Pure Land Buddhism

Translation by yourself is considered original research. Content in Wikipedia must be verifiable and needs to be reliably sourced (see citing sources) Please referece a translation in a book or from a web page. Avoid copying copyrighted material to Wikipedia. Also, please do not put your name into articles. Thank you Jim1138 (talk) 23:19, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Thank you Jim1138 for your constant deleting of my edits to Pure Land Buddhism. I'm sorry I'm not up on all the nuances of wiki yet. I am a Pure Land Buddhist, I have scholarship in the area and have published 5 books already. If that posting is yours and yours alone I would be happy to avoid it. Just tell me directly. I just want more up to date information for people to read, the Sanskrit is not used today, the one version of the dharani listed came from the original Chinese texts. There are various versions in several languages already. That is already well known. I provided the original text plus the phonetics in hanyu pinyin and a translation in English. I am sorry I put a signature in it, as I thought that It was required.

WIKI policy WP Policy: Non-English_sources

This is from WP directly:

Translations and transcriptions

See also: WP:Translation Shortcut: WP:TRANSCRIPTION Faithfully translating sourced material into English, or transcribing spoken words from audio or video sources, is not considered original research. For information on how to handle sources that require translation, see Wikipedia:Verifiability#Non-English sources.

You deleted my material in error.--Ven Hong Yang, Bhikshuni 00:03, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Talkback

Hello, VenHongyang. You have new messages at Wikipedia:Editor assistance/Requests.
Message added 02:14, 10 September 2012 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Your recent edits

Hello. In case you didn't know, when you add content to talk pages and Wikipedia pages that have open discussion, you should sign your posts by typing four tildes ( ~~~~ ) at the end of your comment. You could also click on the signature button or located above the edit window. This will automatically insert a signature with your username or IP address and the time you posted the comment. This information is useful because other editors will be able to tell who said what, and when they said it. Thank you. --SineBot (talk) 03:50, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

VenHongyang, you are invited to the Teahouse

Hi VenHongyang! Thanks for contributing to Wikipedia. Please join other people who edit Wikipedia at the Teahouse! The Teahouse is a friendly space on Wikipedia where new editors can ask questions about contributing to Wikipedia and get help from peers and experienced editors. I hope to see you there! Rosiestep (I'm a Teahouse host) Visit the Teahouse This message was delivered automatically by your friendly neighborhood HostBot (talk) 04:34, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Some cultural notes

Hello Hong Yang, and welcome to Wikipedia. To better understand how to use this site, it can be helpful to understand what it is and what it means to be. WP is generally, a collaborative project at building an encyclopedia. Because it's such an huge task, there are certain strategies and procedures that have fallen in to place, over time. Because there are lots and lots of people editing at once (thousands), there are policies to keep people from stepping on each other's toes- otherwise we would do that even more often. It's awkward and confusing, and always imperfect.

The three marks of existence apply here, just as they do among living beings. There are certain particulars that may be useful to keep in mind, that are part of the way Wikipedia does things, and the way people act and behave here, for better or worse.

• articles on highly-contentious subjects are watched closely, and those watching will usually want strong supporting evidence for any significant changes made. Pure Land Buddhism is one such subject.

• Wikipedia's standard is Verifiability rather than Truth. Just because something is true or factual, does not mean that it qualifies for inclusion. Strong documentary evidence from multiple Reliable Sources is the basis (or is supposed to be) for any content of any article.

• When editing, your own credentials are largely meaningless here. Not because of who you are, but because anyone can easily claim to be anyone else. Wikipedia doesn't check people's ID. That's a deliberate choice. Your words are weighted roughly as equal as anyone else's. But if you know better, through your own deeper research or understanding, there is a way...

• When content is disputed, conflicts are resolved through consensus. The place to start is usually the Talk pages of the article in question. If you can lay things out clearly enough, and if people recognize that you know what you talk about (and aren't a random Internet Troll) you may be able to build consensus for your proposed changes. If you can't build Consensus- the best thing to do is usually to let it go. That's tough, especially when a team of angry editors gangs up on you.

• Copyright use/abuse can be tricky here. People frequently upload things that are copyrighted which they have no (legal) right to copy. Most people who do this aren't aware of the conflict. The policies in place assume (by default) that any material that's been published elsewhere is assumed to be copyrighted, and not free. If copyright for the translations you've done are held by you, and not by an outside publisher, and if you agree to release those translations you post into the public domain, it's probably OK. You may want to clarify that you are releasing them under such license.

• Jim1138 is a Wikipedia administrator. Much of the discussion on his Talk page is from persons requesting assistance, and many/most of them are experiencing some very unpleasant conditions at the time they do. It's chaotic, but that's what Jim's here to sort out.

• Getting it "right" takes a lot of time and effort, even if the thing "wrong" is tiny. If the "wrong" is big and ugly, it takes even more time and effort to fix. This is partly because

• Wikipedia is a bureaucracy while at the same time, not a bureaucracy. There's a great deal of inertia. If we didn't have that, many more articles would be in a much greater state of confusion.

• Wikipedia strongly discourages Self promotion, because many people do come here for the primary or sole purpose of promoting their own book, or story, or product. When you refer to the books you've published in your very first edits, it looks "bad", and its likely that Wiki editors will mistake your efforts for promotion. In your case, I suspect that would be a mistake- selling books obviously isn't why you're here.

• ??? I don't know the rest. I'm (relatively) new here too, and figuring it out on my own. I wish you good luck, and hope you stay. Thanks for coming. --Robert Keiden (talk) 07:44, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for your explanation. I assure you I'm not trying to put myself out there as way to self-promote. I'm just too busy. I've only just started wiki yesterday. I am having trouble getting links to work and sources to cite so they are clear to the readers. I don't like deleted edits, it's hard to replace the material. It would be better if editors would place the material in the talks rather than delete them entirely. Some of us work in other languages and it's really tedious to recreate it. I don't abuse copyright, I'm a published author in my own right. I do only provide material I've seen and read myself. I do not understand all the words in copyright release so I only plan to use links and easy to get at sources. I rarely like to cite page numbers because that is taking something out of context, so along with that page number comes a link or something to access the whole text or chapter. VenHongyang (talk) 15:42, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your response. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear; I know that your not here for "self promotion", but meant to caution you that some of what you did earlier (mentioning your own published books) gives that impression. Not your fault. It's an artifact of Wikipedia culture. And that impression should be past tense by now, anyway. I'm not an expert on copyright, but it's been my observation that Wikipedia will overcorrect, and err on the side of caution if there's any ambiguity. Page numbers are usually not necessary, and between different editions and printings are completely meaningless.--Robert Keiden (talk) 17:03, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Dharma Transmission

Hi Ven Hong Yang. Thanks for your contributions to Dharma transmission. They are very interesting, especially since they come from an insider. Nevertheless, I've moved them to Talk:Dharma transmission, since they lack references, and now read more like an opinion. Would you have any references available? Best wishes, Joshua Jonathan (talk) 10:56, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes I have references. Didn't they show up? Buddhist Monastic Code I, Buddhist Monastic Code II both of these are by Thannissarro Bhikkhu as I referred too already. Vinaya Precepts are covered in this and even though this is a work by Theravada Buddhism it is exactly the same in Mahayana Buddhism with very minor variations.

Taisho Tripitaka has different variations depending on the translator or lineage master CBETA in Chinese only for Tripitaka edition of Taisho Mahayana collection has online sources for these in the Vinaya Pitaka:

                T22n1028 4 Part Bhikshuni Precepts
                T22n1029 4 Part Bhikshuni Precepts
                T22n1030 4 Part Bhikshuni Precepts
                T22n1031 4 Part Bhikshuni Precepts

Of course there are bhikshu 4 part Precepts, same as the Thanissaro works I just gave you.

So far, I'm not sure if wikipedia is valid at all. If only one tiny group gets on promoting their views then what use is it as an encyclopedia? I am from the largest Pure Land group the monastic side, part of the orginating transmission. It really is suprising and if my edits continue to be downgraded then I may not promote wiki as source material for scholars and interested persons in Buddhist study.

I'm not adept at the buttons yet. I had the reference included, all the links when I add them are valid references too. Maybe you can suggest something you approve of as a verification format that I can use easily.

VenHongyang (talk) 14:23, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Hi Ven Hongyang. Pure Land? Interesting. Which monastery exactly, which country? And no, the references did not show up. Could you provide a chapter-number, plus link? For example: Access to Insight, Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta: The Discourse on the Setting in Motion of the Wheel (of Vision) of the Basic Pattern: the Four True Realities for the Spiritually Ennobled Ones. I'll also take a look at your contributions; it's also a matter of wording. And don't be dishearted too easily; it takes time to get too know how it works. Joshua Jonathan (talk) 14:36, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Buddhist Monastic Code I (English, translated from Pali) by Thannissaro Bhikkhu Buddhist Monastic Code I by Thanissaro Bhikkhu Buddhist Monastic Code II Khandhaka Rules Explained (English, translated by Thannissaro Bhikkhu Buddhist Monastic Code II the Khandhaka Rules explained by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

The ceremony is not normally discussed with the public. The actual transmission instructions are oral just at the moment of entering the ordination hall. However, the monastic codes together help one understand the training offered by Buddha in the form of precepts. Bhikshu/bhikkhu and Bhikshuni/bhikkhuni they both hold dharma transmission upon ordination completion of Sakyamuni Buddha. We are dharma heirs of Sakyamuni Buddha, the sons and daughters, the Buddha children/disciples. Usually taking the discipline as a whole is better approach than picking a page to cite.

My Temple is Yuan Heng Monastery in Gaoshiung, Taiwan; I was ordained as bhikshuni in the Triple Platform Ceremony by the 2-part Sangha of bhikshuni and bhikshu which was led by the late Venerable Pu Miao who was the Upadyaya there, That monastery is a Pure Land and Chan. There was no separation of teachings of both as they were a part of monastic life. He is contemporary of Ven. Hsing Yun at Fo Guang Shan. My first Chan teacher was trained from a mountain Chan master a solitary monk, meaning he resided alone on a mountain after being trained in Shaolin as a young monk. most of my influence is from his teachings. I follow and am friends with some monks and nuns who are lineage in transmission originating from Ven. Xu Yun (Hsu Yun) teachings on Chan and other attained masters of Xu Yun's contemporaries.

Ven Huei Guang has the dharma transmission I spoke of explained fully in his facebook posting. Ven Huei Guang Facebook photo album with dharma transmission explaination Here is the English section of that photo post: "In Chinese Buddhist tradition, there are 3 systems of transmission: 1. Tonsure system: a person become tonsured as a novice monastic under the Master's school. He/she is given a Dharma name 法號 at the time of tonsure based on the Master's lineage. This name is also called "the outer name 外號" because it is use by all people to address you. This name is used for life. At the same time, the Master will give the novice sramanera (or sramanerika) ten precepts. 2. Ordination system: a novice will become fully ordained as a Bhikṣu monk/ Bhikṣuni nun with the Triple Platform Ordination (Observing the Śrāmanera, Bhikṣu and Bodhisattva precepts) . This ordination must be presided by 10 monks with at least 10 years of seniority with a pure practice in upholding the monastic precepts. In this ceremony, the 10 Masters represent the Triple Gem accepting the novice into the Sangha. At this time, another Dharma name 法名 is given. This name is also called "precept name 戒名 or inner name 內號" because it is use only by one's Master. This name represents your precept lineage transmission. 3. Dharma transmission system  : This system upholds the Treasury of the True Dharma Eye through the generations of transmission. This is the Mind to Mind seal of the Dharma that is beyond the scriptures. At this time, another Dharma name 法名 is given. This is also called "the inner name 內號" and use only by one's Master. This name represents your Dharma lineage transmission. After receiving this name, one will use this name instead of the name received during precept ordination to write one's Dharma name (Inner Name)(Outer Name). For example, my Dharma name is "Chang An Huei Guang 常安慧光", where "Huei Guang" is my name given at tonsure and "Chang An" is given at Dharma transmission.Therefore, these systems of transmission should not be ended.

It is customary to refer to one's own tonsure Master as "Gracious Master", precept Master as "Root Master" and Dharma transmission Master as "Venerable Master." In Chinese Buddhism, these 3 systems are separate and are not performed by the same Masters. Moreover, due to the strong emphasis on the Dharma, when a person receives the Dharma transmission, he/she is recognized as that Ch'an Master's Dharma son/daughter. Of course lay Buddhists may also receive this Dharma transmission, but there are very few incidences. Most of the monk/nun who received the transmission has already been tonsured and ordained by other Masters." VenHongyang (talk) 15:31, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

comment: I'm not sure whether Wikipedia is valid, but the way material gets added into any section is pretty standard across the site. It's through a process of consensus. The downside to that is, older editors who have been here longest will be over-represented in content disputes (because there are more of them, and because they are more familiar with the rules). Making additions or changes is fine. But removing them is also fine (they can be restored! Everything you added remains in the history tab, and will never have to be re-typed. At worst it can be cut-and-pasted back in). Disputes and disagreements are meant to be handled in Talk pages (like this one right here) or in the Talk page for the article in question. The way Wiki consensus works, if you have a group of people with differing WP:POV from yours, you must find a way to convince them- with logic and with citations, in the Talk pages. --Robert Keiden (talk) 17:27, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

You've been studying Buddhism for many years, and you're probably pretty good at it. But please understand, you've only been studying Wikipedia for a short time, and some of the people you're arguing with have been practicing THIS for many years, too. I suggest you try to think of this as a foreign country, or a school of a different lineage. Don't be discouraged; if you get lost, try to find your breath again. --Robert Keiden (talk) 17:27, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for you advice Robert Keiden. To my knowledge I am not arguing. I am replying to people who write me out of courtesy and an genuine interest in what they have written. I already know about being new here. It's rather unpleasant. I like what you wrote about the history section, I didn't know how to access that at all, it will save me lots of typing time. I am careful cautious person, I don't have loads of time to spend in talk. I consider all the matters I expressed settled. VenHongyang (talk) 19:25, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Hi Ven Hongyang. Maybe we can use your experiences in the Contemporary use in the Zen-traditions section. Do you also have a [[secondary source that confirms this description? (And do you have any suggestion on sources on contemporary Chinese Chán? I really would like to know more about it). For the coming few days I have hardly time to work on Wikipedia, but I find it awesome cool that a Taiwanese monk is contributing to Wikipedia. Really awesome!

In the west there is very little information on Chinese/Taiwanese Chán, so please, don't give up! Take your time to get accustomed to Wikipedia. Joshua Jonathan (talk) 07:02, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Hi Joshua. Sorry I don't think that is a good fit to put in Contemporary Zen is not accurate. What I gave you is the traditional method in Chan temples in China, Taiwan and Hong Kong and generally outside of Japan; not a new one emerging. It's new to you and maybe the editors. Not new to the rest of us. I have started to provide some references to support the inclusion into Chan section as I originally edited. I wonder if the concept is so new to your editors as it seems only to be from the Japanese view which is odd in a Chan section.

• Adamek, Wendi L. (2006). The mystique of transmission : on an early Chan history and its contexts. New York: Columbia University Press. ISBN 0231136641.
• Neelis, Jason (2010). Early Buddhist transmission and trade networks : mobility and exchange within and beyond the northwestern borderlands of South Asia. Leiden: Brill. ISBN 9004181598.
• Tanaka, Kenneth K. (1990). The dawn of Chinese pure land Buddhist doctrine : Ching-ying Hui-yuan's Commentary on the Visualization sutra. Albany: State University of New York Press. ISBN 0791402975.
• Heisig, Henrich Dumoulin ; translated by James W. (2005). Zen Buddhism : a history. Bloomington, IN: World Wisdom. ISBN 0941532895. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
• Chen, edited by Pi-yen (2010). Fan bai = Chinese Buddhist monastic chants. Middleton, Wis.: A-R Editions, Inc. ISBN 0895796724. {{cite book}}: |first= has generic name (help)<
• Heine, edited by Steven (2008). Zen ritual : studies of Zen theory in practice. New York: Oxford University Press. ISBN 0195304675. {{cite book}}: |first= has generic name (help); Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
• The practice of Chinese Buddhism, 1900-1950. Cambridge: Harvard University Press. 1967. ISBN 0674697006.
• Heirman, edited by Ann (2007). The spread of Buddhism ([Online-Ausg.]. ed.). Leiden: Brill. ISBN 9004158308. {{cite book}}: |first= has generic name (help); Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
• Wu, Jiang (2008). Enlightenment in dispute : the reinvention of Chan Buddhism in seventeenth-century China. Oxford: Oxford University Press. ISBN 0195333578.
• Harvey, Peter (1992). An introduction to Buddhism : teaching, history and practices (Repr. ed.). Cambridge [u.a.]: Cambridge Univ. Press. ISBN 0521313333.
• Baroni, Helen J. (2002). The illustrated encyclopedia of Zen Buddhism (1st ed. ed.). New York: Rosen Pub. Group. ISBN 0823922405. {{cite book}}: |edition= has extra text (help)

Well this is enough to get you started. I added some to the above entries. Oh, I am a Buddhist Bhikshhuni a nun, not a monk. I did write as a bhikshuni, Chan we follow gender correct words for sake of protocol, not part of the fad in the West that uses male terms generically. Happy to finally get how to cite using isbn numbers!VenHongyang (talk) 15:10, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Hi Ven Hongyang. With "contemporary" I mean as it is today, not for example 8th century. Thanks for the links; I'll read them. Joshua Jonathan (talk) 18:07, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

I've added your description to Dharma transmission#Chinese Chán

In response to your feedback

Try using this tool to make citations:

There is a "Cite" toolbar at the top of the edit window which allows you to automatically generate the required wiki code.

You click one of the templates, e.g. "book", and fill in the details.

More information can be found in Wikipedia:Referencing for beginners or the citations tutorial (the below video will play best in Firefox or Chrome):

Hope this helps,

Ariconte (talk) 21:47, 10 September 2012 (UTC)