Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Basketball Association

Recognized content subpage

Is there any opposition to creating a subpage for the recognized content like many other wikiprojects have? That way JL-Bot updates the content including good and featured articles weekly, instead of editors having to do it by hand, which makes it easier to miss things.

I mostly bring this up because the main page currently only lists 85/135 GAs and is missing a couple pages in other sections as well. -- ZooBlazer^talk 21:50, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and made the page. It can be found right here. The bot should run in a few days and add all the current recognized content as long as the pages have {{WikiProject National Basketball Association}} on their talk pages. If it's done right and others agree, it can be added to the main page of the WikiProject or at the very least linked to. -- ZooBlazer^talk 06:15, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

List of NBA regular season records

List of NBA regular season records has bloated again in size, almost doubling its size from two weeks ago. What do yall think of the recent changes? ^{Engr. Smitty Werben} 23:33, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

I'd at least cut back on the overly-specific "ESPN stats" ("Only players to average 33 minutes or more at age 39 or older"). Zagalejo (talk) 05:51, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

"Most wedgies (basketball stuck between rim and backboard)" Seriously? How is that even a relevant record lol. ^{Dieter Lloyd Wexler} 16:57, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Overcategorization?

Does anyone think Category:National Basketball Association first-overall draft picks is necessary (improper use of hyphen aside)? SportsGuy789 (talk) 04:59, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Arguably meets WP:CATDEF.—Bagumba (talk) 05:27, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Kyrie Irving

Nationality in basketball infobox has always shown FIBA eligibility (“national team”) but now a NA tribe is being added as a third entry. There are no FIBA entries for tribes. I am not going to WP:RRR but this issue needs to be resolved. Perhaps the field name should be changed to clearly state “FIBA affiliation” or something similar. Rikster2 (talk) 06:09, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

Even Australia has crept back in, when the previous consensus at Talk:Kyrie Irving § Nationality was to exclude it. Incidentally, I don't think there's necessarily consensus to only limit it to the national team. For example, at Giannis Antetokounmpo, there's enough coverage about his Nigerian citizenship, and he's publicly identified as both Greek and Nigerian. Both are listed.—Bagumba (talk) 06:28, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style and WP:CONLEVEL: "Consensus among a limited group of editors, at one place and time, cannot override community consensus on a wider scale. For instance, unless they can convince the broader community that such action is right, participants in a WikiProject cannot decide that some generally accepted policy or guideline does not apply to articles within its scope." Per WP:TRIBE and MOS:CITIZEN, his Standing Rock Sioux Tribal citizenship is not a racial term and is not implied by simply being "American". Native tribes are sovereign nations and it's sourced within the article that he's a citizen of that tribal nation. The infobox for NATIONALITY is under the Personal Information heading, not necessarily related to his qualifications of which team he plays basketball. These Wikipedia policies cannot be override by editors in this discussion, it would have to be taken up by as a policy change to all of Wikipedia.  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 06:42, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

The intent of the Nationality field was to denote countries a player suits up for in FIBA competition. If the field is redefined for its original purpose - OR ELIMINATED ALTOGETHER since it is only used about half the time anyway if the birth country is the same - then it is not going against anything. No one said the article should not mention it since it is sourced. Rikster2 (talk) 07:47, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

I don't believe there is a community consensus on handling dual nationalities. Per MOS:CONTEXTBIO:

The opening paragraph should usually provide context for the activities that made the person notable...Similarly, neither previous nationalities nor the country of birth should be mentioned in the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability.

It does not say we must exhaustively list all of a person's nationalities. The spirt of the guideline is to list the one (or those) from which they receive their core notability.—Bagumba (talk) 07:50, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

First consensus in this group doesn't override the MOS policies on Wikipedia about how nationality is included. And there has been significant coverage of his Native American citizenship and he incorporates it into his ongoing basketball activities through comments to the media, wearing cultural items to games, smudging before games, honoring his ancestors through his gear. He is active in his community as well. MOS:CONTEXTBIO includes Native American citizenship examples. Secondly, he was born in Australia, so it's not easily implied that he also has Standing Rock and American citizenship besides his Aussie citizenship by simply looking at place of birth. All should be listed in his case. There's no need for erasure of his Native American heritage or Aussie citizenship because of a personal preference for FIBA. Everything in regards to his career in the infobox is clearly labeled in the career section, including FIBA nationality is described in the medal infobox (Olympics, World Cup etc), which is different than Personal Information nationalities.  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 08:16, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

Please point to the MOS that requires that multiple nationalities always be included in the lead sentence. Also, I didn't refer to FIBA. Thanks.—Bagumba (talk) 09:14, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

I must note that this particular editor has been doing this since 2021 (despite the consensus being to only list the "American" nationality). Therefore, this behavior looks like WP:LTA given the length of it (or WP:DISRUPTIVE at least). And no, I am not going to discuss this further, because I rarely edit basketball-related pages these days and this WikiProject along with certain pages are on my watchlist. – sbaio 11:37, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

Wikiprojects consensus does not override Wikipedia policies. This "FIBA nationality" is a clear Wikiproject specific "rule" and goes against the linked policies. I can open up a case about this on one of the admin noticeboards to get more outside input.  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 15:10, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

There is no place in MOS that mandates use of nationality, citizenship or anything similar in the infobox. If this project chooses to eliminate the use or create a field for FIBA affiliation that is our business (with proper consensus of course). Rikster2 (talk) 11:57, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

That's clearly against WP:CONLEVEL to make Wikiproject-specific rules to MOS:CITIZEN.  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 15:12, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

Comment it is absolutely not against WP:CONLEVEL to remove nationality as a field in this infobox. It is also not against it to add a field the denotes FIBA eligibility. You are simply mistaken or misunderstand. I am not talking about redefining citizenship/nationality for this project. Rikster2 (talk) 19:51, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

You quite clearly agreed at Talk:Kyrie Irving/Archive 1#Lakota heritage to not list Lakota or anything similar in the infobox after Rikster2 wrote basically the same in that discussion as here. I advise you to stop your edit warring, because you are already at WP:3RR. – sbaio 15:40, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

That's an outdated discussion, my opinion has changed since then, especially with clarification about Native identities on Wikipedia and better awareness of policies. I'll bring this discussion to outside attention since this Wikiproject is being problematic about policies.  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 15:45, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

Can someone provide a link to the discussion in this Wikiproject that shows consensus on that to limit to nationality in the personal section to national team? Bagumba mentioned there was no consensus to actually to do. I'll link to it in upcoming noticeboard discussion for quick reference.  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 15:52, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

Interestingly, the soccer player infobox does not list such information; instead it lists the national teams (including under-xx ones) the player had played for. Perhaps basketball should do the same?— Preceding unsigned comment added by Howard the Duck (talk • contribs) 19:58, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

I would be in favor of some form of that, though sometimes the soccer format gets clunky if the player was a member of national teams at multiple levels (see Michael Owen). But right now the current basketball version only shows medals, so for a player like Hanno Möttölä who was on Finland’s national team for 20 years (but never medaled) shows nothing in the infobox about his significant national team career Rikster2 (talk) 20:07, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

We could treat national team appearances as "club teams" just as how the soccer infobox does it. The opposite argument is basketball fans generally do not treat national team competitions as more important, or even as important, than club competitions. Howard the Duck (talk) 20:11, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

NBA All-Star records for career averages, percentages

I saw that at Giannis Antetokounmpo § Regular season, he's marked as the ASG career record holder for points per game. However, there doesn't seem to be a standard for minimums. The NBA doesn't seem to publish an annual official guide anymore, so its unclear how they track this "record", if at all (anymore). At basketball-reference.com, they have a 3 game minimum.[1] At landofbasketball.com, Jaylen Brown is shown as the leader, but their minimum is 3 games or 50 points.[2]

Honestly, I think ASG career records for rates are trivial, and not defining. Totals like points, assists, games played are more oft-mentioned. I'd propose not marking them for that reason alone, but then there's also the issue of no consistent authority on the minumum requirements. —Bagumba (talk) 09:58, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

Why are all-star stats in the regular season section? Shouldn't that be on a separate section altogether? I do see this is being done for all players who had appeared on an ASG. Howard the Duck (talk) 12:28, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

Seems like it's been placed w/ reg season for the longest time at Wikipedia:WikiProject National Basketball Association/Style advice § NBA statistics—Bagumba (talk) 13:33, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

Yeah my suggestion of listing it on a separate section seems like a bad one if we'd list ASG stats per appearance. I suppose this is the best way to deal with it, but we should follow on how WP:RS determines how the record is tracked. Howard the Duck (talk) 16:41, 4 November 2023 (UTC)