Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Law

Updating Template:Cite court

Hello, I've done some work on {{Cite court}}. I've made live two updates that I believe are uncontroversial. The template now supports |archive-url= and |url-status=, and an obscure formatting bug is resolved. I have questions about a few changes. I'm testing these in the sandbox but have no plans to implement them unless there is a demand.

[A] Access-date

Should the template display the access date as the CS1/CS2 templates do? The |access-date= parameter does nothing and has never done anything, but 4,600 out of 10,600 uses of the template contain an access-date.[1] After recently discussing this on Template talk:Cite court with a very knowledgeable editor, it seems like legal citations generally do not place an emphasis on the URL.

[B] Should the template make a link

Currently the template provides a link if an editor places one in the |url= parameter. If no url is provided, there's no link. If the template can auto-generate a URL to the case on CourtListener from its other parameters, should it?

[C] Aliases

Currently the template only uses one alias (alternative parameter name). Over the years editors have asked for several parameters to have an alias more in line with other templates. Which of the following aliases (if any) would be useful:

• |title= for |litigants=
• |volume= for |vol=
• |work= for |reporter=
• |at= for |pinpoint=
• |year= for |date=

Thanks, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 23:54, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

I have fairly strong opinions on [B] — Linking, as you can see from the Template talk:Cite court discussion. But one of the big issues here is that there are multiple templates with overlapping scope that behave in different ways, but those differences aren't principled or reasoned, they just seem to be personal preference, with the result that Wikipedia is annoyingly inconsistent as to legal citation. I also only care about legal citation in the American legal system, and none of these templates are defined to be specific to the US system, but in practice that's what they're generally used for.

We have:

Template:cite court (5,500 transclusions)

Template:law report (137 transclusions)

Template:caselaw source (4,000 transclusions)

I think it doesn't make a lot of sense to discuss the behavior of one of these without discussing the others, nor is it clear to me that all three of these should exist.

Template:Cite court's documentation suggests favoring Google Scholar. Template:Law report creates links to courtlistener.com. Template:caselaw source gives ten different sources they could possibly use, many of which might conceivably have the underlying opinion (but some are for other stuff, like Cornell's LII has laws: statues and regulations).

It's my considered opinion that of the available choices Google Scholar gives the best reading experience for readers, especially ones who care about legal citation and need to resolve pincites, because it gives reporter pagination in the left margin. Courtlistener gives paragraph numbers in the left column margin, which is nice in the abstract, but in practice is almost never used in the legal citation world in general (with some particular local exceptions), so is not helpful to readers. We could walk through the other 8 options (cornell, findlaw, justia, leagle, loc, openjurist, oyez, vlex), but I'm not sure that's productive right now.

It would be great if the template could make a link to Google Scholar based on the reporter/volume/page, but Google Scholar doesn't support that. Instead you have to do a search to get the case=11156910755936011541 parameter.

I do not think we should make it easy for editors avoid the work to put in a Google Scholar link by autogenerating a link to one of the other sites (including Courtlistener). That results in a less usable encyclopedia and that's not great.

As to [A] — access-date, the discussion really came up about support for archive-url, but it seems like it's hard to argue that it's wrong to have access-date there, and most Wikipedia citation-ish templates use it. But I'm not sure I can come up with an actual real live situation where it is important to have it, so it feels a little bit like clutter. But I don't oppose it.

No opinion as to [C] aliases, at least right now. jhawkinson (talk) 00:55, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for working on this. In general, I think we need an overhaul of these citation formats so that they can be used for multiple jurisdictions, not just US (BlueBook) citation style. I think that could be done using a parameter with a country code that changes the output based on the most popular citation style for a jurisdiction. One way to decide what to support would be to look at how many articles we have on cases from each country, but I would say at least US and UK citation formats should be included. UK would also probably capture other commonwealth countries. To answer your specific questions:

• A – No, do not include access dates.
• B – Maybe? I need to think on it.
• C – Caption, not title, and changing vol to volume and year to date is fine, but keep everything else as is because that's how cases are cited and it's less confusing when citing. Can't those parameters be passed in as aliases of title, volume, etc., so people can still use those if they want?

Best, voorts (talk/contributions) 14:42, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

@Voorts: To clarify regarding, "Can't those parameters be passed in as aliases of title, volume, etc., so people can still use those if they want?" Yes, that's exactly how an alias works. You can test this or inspect the source[2] to see how it works with |date= and |year=, the only alias currently supported. The template emits the same output for either parameter name. Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 07:04, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

@Voorts writes, "I think we need an overhaul of these citation formats so that they can be used for multiple jurisdictions, not just US (BlueBook) citation style." Why? US citation is the vast bulk of the use of these templates, and has particular stylistic and technical aspects that are not shared by other legal systems (at least, as far as I am aware). It would seem better to have domain-specific templates rather than to try to make one template do everything. Less complexity, easier maintenance, better-looking output. (On the other hand, I'm not sure what problems there are with the current template for non-US usage right now. Has anyone reported or discussed them?). Note, to be perhaps hypertechnical, that Bluebook is not a great term to use for this, because that's a whole complicated citation system that is much more than just case names, reporters, pages, and volumes. But this style is certainly consistent with bluebook. jhawkinson (talk) 16:06, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

What I was getting at is that for an article, say, on a US case or US law, the average reader would probably recognize and expect case citations that are at least Bluebook-ish, whereas an average reader looking at an article on UK law would expect something similar to UK citation style. Currently, our template is loosely based on the Bluebook style, which I think is an issue.

I think it would be easy for this to be one template: just create a paramater that lets an editor input a two-letter country code (e.g., US, UK, etc.), and the template changes the output in the background. I don't think it would overcomplicate things for editors and probably wouldn't be too hard for a skilled template crafter to make. voorts (talk/contributions) 22:57, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Maybe? You'd have to build the template from scratch, I think. For the 3 mentioned so far, it's relatively easy (even for an unskilled template crafter) to move those closer to the US/Bluebook citation style. I really don't see how we could make them swap formats like that without essentially packing many templates into one, and making the load time multiply by the number of styles added.

For example, a |case= parameter like Jhawkinson mentioned above, could be added to create pinpoint links to Google Scholar that could override the URL parameters, but would only work for US cases. Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 23:53, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

I hadn't even thought of load times etc. I'm not an expert on templates. Fair enough, these should probably be separate templates, but I don't know if anyone is really asking for them right now. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:00, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

@Voorts: One of the good reasons to not make a huge complicated template is that this template is used in a lot of places and is editprotected, because mistakes could be high stakes. But a template for some UK style would be new, and would want to be able to evolve easily and freely, and ideally would allow unrestricted editing (or maybe semiprotection if it got enough use), so that it could be quickly changed. (Now, of course, this template could call out to a different template for UK cases, but…). Anyhow, I am still missing why "I think we need an overhaul of these citation formats"? Where's the demand? Where are all the requests? Who is making this case? This template has enough problems that are real and we should be worrying about, but I would like to avoid scope creep on these questions if it is not necessary. Thanks.

And @Rjjiii: I was not suggesting the template should have a |case= parameter! My point was that the Google Scholar URL has that parameter in it, and there's no way to generate it -- you have to do a search in Google Scholar and see what it returns. I don't think it would be particularly helpful to have a parameter that generates the Google Scholar URL versus just allowing/encouraging editors to drop in the full Google Scholar URL. jhawkinson (talk) 00:07, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

I've struck my comment above, Jhawkinson. I (mis?)took your case 11156910755936011541 parameter. comment as a reference to a potential template parameter on Wikipedia. Also, to be clear, I don't think there is enough interest in these templates to build consensus for major changes right now. Rjjiii (ii) (talk) 01:13, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Asking the potentially obvious question: Is there a reason this template is not a part of the WP:CS1 family? HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 21:08, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Please add the field |archive-date= to match the |archive-url=. —DocWatson42 (talk) 05:57, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

I second this. These have been repeatedly requested by multiple users at the template talk and are very beneficial to editors as not all court PDFs that are cited on here have readably accessible backups available. The Internet bot is currently attempting to add these though can only add archive-url though that itself causes some errors with the missing parameter of "archive-date=". Trailblazer101 (talk) 19:11, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

@Rjjiii: pinging so you'll see the above request. Trailblazer101 (talk) 19:13, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

@Trailblazer101 and DocWatson42: I have added |archive-date= as an optional parameter.[3] It will only have an effect if |archive-url= is used. It can be omitted without issue. The documentation and template data still need to be updated. Could you elaborate on the "errors with the missing parameter" and does this resolve those errors? Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 06:44, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

@Rjjiii: Thank you, and I'm glad you asked! I put together a little visual example of how this template currently looks compared to what is typically expected from other cite temps, just to ensure consistency throughout our templates. The examples and noted differences can be found in my sandbox here. Trailblazer101 (talk) 18:18, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

The comma separator is used by {{cite court}} and Bluebook on which it's based: Case citation#United States. Compared to {{Citation}}, which currently uses commas by default, it looks the same. There was no consensus for adding the |access-date= parameter, so I never implemented it in the live template. Thanks for the feedback, Trailblazer101, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 06:09, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

The easiest way to work with CS1 is to wrap an existing template (category link), as in legal formatting subtemplates like {{Cite Hansard}} (or my own attempt at a unified European legal citation template (discussion link)). I've worked a little on putting a basic law template into the CS1 module code the summer before last -- some of the maintainers were encouraging and some were discouraging from the beginning.

The reason for writing the template as a subset of CS1, as opposed to wrapping, is because the typical US legal citation is a bit out-of-order, when you think about what corresponds to metadata for "title", "author", "date", etc., and a wrapper can't really do too much in re-ordering. CS1 code has huge advantages that we'd want to preserve, and the disadvantage to just forking it (and not dealing with the existing maintainers) is that you are not on their update stream.

My plan was to start with a CS1 module fork (which I think is mostly finished (module link), and see my template draft page for documentation and testing) called "cite law" or something, that can then be wrapped for {{cite patent}}, {{tl:cite court}}, and the like. If the fork code works well enough, then I deal with the politics of CS1. SamuelRiv (talk) 19:30, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

If you plan on continuing to work on this project, I would suggest sub-templates, such as one that follow US-style citations (I think it should use the Indigo Book, which is a PD version of the BlueBook) and one that follows UK/commonwealth-style citations. voorts (talk/contributions) 19:36, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

For example, I think a U.S. case cite should look something like this: Marbury v. Madison, 5 U.S. 137 (1803). Archived from the original on March 22, 2024. Retrieved March 31, 2024. Another example (taken from the Indigo Book): Macy’s Inc. v. Martha Stewart Living Omnimedia, Inc., No. 1728, slip op. at 1 (N.Y. App. Div. Feb. 26, 2015), http://www.nycourts.gov/reporter/3dseries/2015/2015_01728.htm. Archived from the original on March 17, 2024. Retrieved March 31, 2024.

If you wanted to go even further, a sub-template for {{sfn}} that makes short cites easier (see, e.g., Shostakovich v. Twentieth Century-Fox Film Corp., where I had to do it manually) would be amazing. voorts (talk/contributions) 19:44, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

The basic law-style supertemplate for a CS1-style module needs to have its basic metadata-enabled fields in the order: "title [ie litigants or law], journal [ie reporter or journal], authors [ie legislature or court], date"; the wrapper problem is that no existing CS1 template style has this ordering, but almost every legal citation format can be shoehorned in this way. (Making a wrapper for CS1 doesn't allow you to change the order of the fields that are output.) Once the supertemplate is made, with the fields in that order, and a few field aliases are added, then a crapload of correctly-formatted subtemplates can just be wrapped on that. [Addendum: an ID/docket number varies greatly in placement with international citations, so probably wouldn't be universally wrapped.] SamuelRiv (talk) 19:47, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

I don't know much about the politics of CS1, but since there's no rules for citations, other than following WP:CITEVAR, I can't see why there should be any issues with developing a set of CS1-forked law citation templates. How long do you anticipate this project taking? voorts (talk/contributions) 19:50, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

It was supposed to just take the summer, but I seem to get discouraged and chased away easily. I think it's mostly done save for tweaks and updating with the latest CS1 code. Anyone is free to modify the module in my sandbox also, or else we should just move it to a stable module project -- it's not like there's no record of the original code. (And by "dealing with the politics of CS1" I meant someone else not me probably has to do that, should integration be a future option. There was apparently a lot of drama with {{cite patent}}.)

So let's do this as the timeline: get the current module base code from CS1 and update from my sandbox (all changes I made for the "cite law" style should be self-contained functions). (I'm generally familiar with this code base so I should probably be the one to do this, but anyone can do it themselves if they want to get familiar.) The new module and template name are Module:Cite law and Template:Cite law (the latter has to split from its redirect to {{Cite act}}, which wraps CS1 {{cite book}} -- in doing so an AWB script (or manual -- only 99 articles) has to rename all the existing "cite law" template calls). Alternatively, we can used Template:Cite legal, which is unused, but less snappy imo.

Next, fix the code and test thoroughly for existing templates to replace, starting with the smallest and working up to cite court and cite patent for the US, and simultaneously the UK templates, seeing how much can be kept as wrappers of the single supertemplate. Finally, expand the implementation to replace European and other templates as is practical. SamuelRiv (talk) 20:08, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

{{cite case law}} would be the most descriptive name for a template used to cite a legal case. Can that be usurped from {{cite court}}, and then any uses of that switched out by AWB or bot? Would that be a controversial change requiring a TfD discussion? voorts (talk/contributions) 20:29, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Nevermind, looks like {{cite case law}} is used on very few pages. Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:Cite case law voorts (talk/contributions) 20:31, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Because the supertemplate (or more precisely, the CS1 module "style" that can be called for a template wrapper) formatting seems applicable for typical styles of citations for not only Common Law case law, but also UK legislative acts, as well as French Civil case law and what I poorly understand of French decrees etc. So for the name of the supermodule style, and supertemplate (if needed), I'd rather have something broad ("cite legal" might be most descriptive on second thought). It's really just about getting the title to output before the author in the supermodule. (And the reason you can't just rename the fields is because they have metadata.) SamuelRiv (talk) 20:39, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm a bit confused. Is your intent for {{cite law}} to be a template to cite a statute only, or for the template to be used to cite both statutory acts and case law? voorts (talk/contributions) 20:46, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

CS1 can accommodate however many styles one wants to code up, and its modularity on that is... improving, but for each style adding it is politically like pulling teeth. So what I'm thinking, and what seemed feasible from before, is a single CS1 style that is put into a supertemplate ({{cite legal}}, I'm thinking now) that then can be called into wrapper templates like {{cite court}}, {{cite patent}}, international variants, etc. Minor formatting tweaks that wrapping itself cannot handle can instead be controlled within the CS1 style using flag parameters, (for which iirc I coded one). It might turn out that the the supertemplate is actually sufficient to call as a standalone for anything law related, but I'm not sure (and either way I think users prefer subtemplates that are semantically explicit about the content they are citing, even if the code being called is identical).

tldr: the lua module is coded to apply as generally as possible, while I see the wrapper templates, as they already exist, can remain specific to the type of legal work being cited. SamuelRiv (talk) 21:44, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Would there likely be consensus to change {{cite court}} and {{cite patent}} to call to the new modules and templates? voorts (talk/contributions) 21:53, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

> (and either way I think users prefer subtemplates that are semantically explicit about the content they are citing, even if the code being called is identical).

I for one prefer it. And I'm heartened to see that my suggestion has been picked up and the community is running with it. ^_^ —DocWatson42 (talk) 02:04, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Why are crime and law enforcement this project's ambit?

I don't find that most articles about specific instances of crimes require attention from law experts. Not unless the legal appraisal is complex or in dispute, or a novel legal issue is raised. Nor do I think that law enforcement is really our domain, except for criminal procedure law and such. Of course, prosecutors are trained in law, but I don't think that means we should automatically put articles about their actions in the scope of WP:LAW. I find it makes it harder to find articles that are actually mainly about law, and not just tangentially connected. Surely Wikipedia Project: Criminal Justice is more specialized?

To this end, I've posted at the Village Pump idea lab, under the section Excise the "crime" topic from the "law" topic; make "law, government and administration" an established grouping of topics". I'd appreciate everyone's input.

Incidentally, I also have some quibbles about poor delineations of scope for many law articles; often, they don't specify that they're specific to jurisdictions in the common law tradition, and don't say what the civil law equivalent would be. But I'll make that the subject of a separate section sometime later.

Thank you for your attention. §§ LegFun §§ talk §§ 20:33, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Could you post a link to your idea lab post? Generally, WikiProjects decide their own scope, not the Village Pump. voorts (talk/contributions) 20:35, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

WikiProjects deciding their own scope does make sense. I went to the Village Pump because my initial concern was for the categories that general pages like the FAC review processes use to group together candidates. They put crime in with law, which I find a bit deceptive. A big reform like that on a page like FAC that involves more people than just WP:LAW users made me think getting a broader consensus was the way to go.

But now that I think about it, this evening's comment and my earlier comment on the Village Pump idea lab page aren't identical. So I'll leave my Village Pump comment just for reference, and declare my comment on this page its own thing. I'd love to link my other comment, but I've encountered some difficulty because the title I chose for it contains quotation marks, so I'm afraid I don't know how to write out the bit after the # to make a working link . . . §§ LegFun §§ talk §§ 20:55, 17 January 2024 (UTC) — edited 20:58 UTC

Also, generally speaking, this WikiProject doesn't have any active projects going on right now. Some people watch this talk page and there are occasional posts/questions, but other than that, there's no coordination. voorts (talk/contributions) 21:02, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Ah, I see. I also get the feeling that law isn't the most active topic in general? Maybe with the exception of biographies and U.S. Supreme Court cases?

I suppose it's especially difficult to put into an encyclopedic format; doubly so because a worldwide perspective involves comparative law, which few people are trained in (yours truly isn't either . . . yet.) §§ LegFun §§ talk §§ 21:04, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

I'd say on the contrary that matters of law are frequently discussed at current events articles, and all too often people would rather interpret primary sources as written, or cite non-qualified secondary sources, than go by what is really existing P&G. (The discussion at the LAWRS VPP proposal linked above rather bothered me at the number of people saying no problem existed, or expert secondary sources weren't necessary.) Just from my watchlist this week: Talk:Alan_Dershowitz#Source_falsification (Epstein whodunnits), Talk:LGBT_rights_in_Indonesia#Legal_status, Talk:White_phosphorus_munitions/Archives/2020/January (I had to remove all this garbage that was re-added), Talk:War_crimes_in_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine (we gave up), Talk:Assassination_of_Qasem_Soleimani#Change_article_name_to_"Killing_of_Qasem_Soleimani" (et al over 6 archives, similar to every other assassination/killing/MDK page name). From pages I frequent, international law is the topic people seem to misunderstand most, yet think they can cite non-experts in most (which is convenient because international criminal law is almost never prosecuted -- by design afaiu). Anything that can be done to raise attention to the need for keeping to actually reliable RS is worthwhile in itself. SamuelRiv (talk) 00:01, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Mexico vs gun manufacturers

I am looking for the case mentioned in [4]. But I was only able to find Estados Unidos Mexicanos v. DeCoster. How do I find the mentioned case? --Ysangkok (talk) 03:07, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

http://media.ca1.uscourts.gov/pdf.opinions/22-1823P-01A.pdf (I searched the First Circuit website for opinions released on 1/22/2024). voorts (talk/contributions) 03:43, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Invention Secrecy Act

Hi, I found this project/group from the talk page here after I started expanding the article linked. Are there any examples of laws that had limited duration impacts on individuals like this one did with its Secrecy Orders that I should look at when considering formatting? I'm thinking that a listing of notable individual situations that were later declassified would be very useful as examples. I wanted to find other articles that may have similar things so that I could see how they are arranged. Thanks. -- Very Polite Person (talk) 00:20, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

The Patriot Act has obvious similarities, but I am not sure to what extent anything in that article might be useful to you. John M Baker (talk) 00:37, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

I don't see why that should be written as a list, rather than written in prose in a section on the history of the Act. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:50, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

I assumed as prose, yeah. I just wanted to find something kind of along those lines to see how other articles did it. -- Very Polite Person (talk) 01:27, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

I can't think of any off the top of my head, but you might want to look at Featured Articles under this WikiProject. I am going to leave some comments on the article talk page. voorts (talk/contributions) 02:03, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Thanks again, your help was great, as well as looking at those. It let me add more of a broader array of sources that I can go back to now, and new directions to dig. -- Very Polite Person (talk) 15:36, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

Legal cases as Primary vs. Secondary

I am working with an editor who believes that legal cases are secondary sources. To me it is common sense that such decisions are WP:PRIMARY. I didn't see it clearly mentioned in WP:RS or here on this project. Is there any place where it is spelled out more clearly? If there isn't one, we could use a section on good legal sources. I did see it discussed here: [5]. --David Tornheim (talk) 22:03, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

We have RSLAW (there's been some discussion recently about getting it to a better state). Cases are primary sources because their holdings are open to interpretation and their factual findings are based on what the parties present to the court and the court's first-hand evaluation of evidence. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:02, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Furrer v Snelling

Can we comment on this article? Bearian (talk) 20:46, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

RfC related to law.

FYI. RfC related to legal cases:

• Talk:J._Sai_Deepak#RfC_on_lawsuits_inclusion

--David Tornheim (talk) 08:26, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Henry v London Greater Transport Services

I came across this article on an English law case; it could use some attention from someone interested in English law. For one thing, the lead trails off in an incomplete sentence, and looking at the history, it looks like that's how it was created! And much of the body of the article is hard to grasp for someone not knowledgeable in English law - like, is "reasonable, certain and notorious" really a thing? What does it mean? Brianyoumans (talk) 17:56, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

I removed the half-written sentence and tagged this as unreferenced. Pinging @James500, who works on UK law topics. Best, voorts (talk/contributions) 21:55, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

"Reasonable, certain and notorious" is the test for the legal validity of a trade custom that was given in the judgment in Bond v CAV Ltd [1983] IRLR 360 (a test that was said to be based on earlier decisions in Devonald v Rosser and R v Stoke upon Trent). This test is described in paragraph 28 of the judgment in Henry v London General Transport Services, and in paragraphs 28 and 29 it is said that the Employment Tribunal, and the parties to the case, all agreed with this test. "Reasonable, certain and notorious" is certainly "really a thing", and that fact should have been obvious from even the most cursory examination of the transcript of the judgment linked to, as a reference, from the article. There is, frankly, nothing surprising about that test. Local customs, for example, have been required to be reasonable and certain by cases and other authority from at least as early as the 14th to 17th centuries, and this is so fundamental and well known that it is covered in some detail in the most introductory (university undergraduate) books on English law: [6] (citing cases at least as far back as 13 Edw 3, which is approximately 1339). And, in all fairness, "reasonable, certain and notorious" is not difficult to understand, nothwithstanding that there is a certain amount of nuance in the precise meaning of those expressions. "Reasonable, certain and notorious" are ordinary English words. Any reader who cannot understand at least the gist of those words is a reader who cannot speak English. For example, in this context, "notorious" just means something to the effect that the custom is so well known that the relevant person could not have failed to assume that it was impliedly included in his contract. This is so obvious that, even if you did not know what was said in Bond v CAV Ltd (and you do know what was said in that case, because there is an external link to a source that quotes it), it should not be difficult to understand. "Something that everyone knows" is the ordinary meaning of the word "notorious" in any context, and readers should know what that word means. James500 (talk) 00:34, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

The article definitely looks improved. On the western side of The Pond where I reside "notorious" almost universally means "to be known for one's evil deeds", but you are correct that I should have thought of its original meaning of simply "well known". Thanks for the explanation! Brianyoumans (talk) 02:06, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Offence against the person#Requested move 24 February 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Offence against the person#Requested move 24 February 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. ASUKITE 03:00, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Women's month categorizations

Hello. In honor of the women's month, I invite members of this wikiproject and editors in general to help populate Category:Women's firsts, specially pages related to law, like Category:First women judges and Category:First women chief justices. Sincerely, --Thinker78 (talk) 00:37, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Please weigh in on Gibson Dunn.

I’m hoping to find editors with an interest in law to take a look at some suggested changes. The current page contains numerous policy violations leading to the mischaracterization of several prominent cases. I have a conflict, so I’ll leave it to neutral editors to decide:Talk:Gibson_Dunn#February_2024_Requested_Edits CaseyatLeicesterStreet (talk) 14:33, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

I'll take a look. Sorry the edit request has taken so long. I assume that's because it includes several changes. SilverLocust 💬 16:26, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for Ronald M. George

Ronald M. George has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Spinixster (chat!) 11:15, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Seton Hall reports#Requested move 28 March 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Seton Hall reports#Requested move 28 March 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 13:12, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

New article: Consciousness of guilt

I have finished enough of Consciousness of guilt to go public with it. Further development will be appreciated. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 19:04, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

I'd recommend looking at law reviews, law journals, and legal treatises on evidence. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:08, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Legal status of fictional pornography depicting minors#Requested move 20 March 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Legal status of fictional pornography depicting minors#Requested move 20 March 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. – robertsky (talk) 11:25, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Capital punishment#Requested move 1 April 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Capital punishment#Requested move 1 April 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. RodRabelo7 (talk) 01:58, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Capital punishment in New York (state)#Requested move 10 April 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Capital punishment in New York (state)#Requested move 10 April 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. RodRabelo7 (talk) 02:00, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Legal case is in dire need of sourcing

Can someone have a look at this article? Cheers! BD2412 T 15:48, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

It should be merged with Lawsuit. Currently Litigation is a redirect to the latter but, in my eyes, it should be the article with Legal case and Lawsuit as redirects to it. DeCausa (talk) 16:56, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

I think Legal case is a valid summary-style article, since it includes both civil and criminal cases, and a criminal case isn't called a "lawsuit" in common usage. Both Legal case and Lawsuit are in pretty bad states, though. voorts (talk/contributions) 21:42, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Exactly, a criminal case and a civil case are both kinds of legal cases, with many aspects in common (jurisdictional questions, proceedings, factfinders, processes for obtaining and admitting evidence). BD2412 T 22:17, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

It's difficult to say because "lawsuit" is an Americanism whereas "legal case" has wider usage across the anglosphere. Because of that, lawsuit and legal case is better wrapped up into "litigation" (which can be civil or criminal) which is the only word that avoids the whole WP:NOTDICTIONARY taint. DeCausa (talk) 22:40, 15 April 2024 (UTC)