Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ice Hockey

NHL division championships, 1981-82 to 1992-93

For the 1981-82 to 1992-93 team seasons, I recommend we go with the regular season criteria. That's, the team that finishes first in their respective division. GoodDay (talk) 15:10, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

There is already a discussion about that above (Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ice Hockey#What does "division title" and/or "division championship" mean in NHL-related articles?) so there is no need to duplicate it. – sbaio 16:29, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm aware of this, but it died out. So... I'm asking 'here', shall we go by regular season results. GoodDay (talk) 18:51, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Yes Conyo14 (talk) 21:01, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Nothing should be changed until there is a clear consensus. – sbaio 18:20, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Sorry for not answering earlier and for starting the original discussion without doing my research. But I think I now understand the basic points. And I have tried to gather some additional information regarding division titles and would like to make another suggestion how to handle them.

Here is the additional information that I have gathered:

• I have checked the infoboxes and the "List of <Team> Seasons" pages for all teams which are currently active and it looks like all but three teams consistently use the regular season division titles. The three outliers are the Oilers, the Flames and the Canucks. The Oilers and Flames use the playoff division finals wins between 81-82 and 92-93 for the "Seasons" pages and for the infoboxs, while the Canucks use the regular season titles in the infobox and are inconsistent in the "Seasons" pages.
• I have also tried to find out what kind of division titles the teams themselves claim. So I did some Google and Getty image searches to find out what banners the teams have put up in their arenas. I did that for all teams which had least one regular season division title and/or won at least one division final between 81-82 and 92-93. Of course I cannot be sure that the images that I found always showed the complete information and are current but from what I've seen it looks like this:
  • Only regular season division titles: Boston, Philadelphia, St. Louis, Hartford, Washington, Los Angeles
  • Only playoff division titles: Edmonton, Calgary
  • Both playoff and regular season division titles, but marked on the banner: Detroit, New Jersey
  • Both playoff and regular season division titles, but not marked on the banner: Vancouver, Pittsburgh
  • No division titles at all, only Conference titles or higher: Montreal, Toronto, Islanders, Chicago
  • No division titles for that timespan, but for later years: Rangers
  • I have found no images for Quebec and Minnesota

My suggestion is the following: I think it is possible to have a consistent definition of "division title" an explanation of the concept and its ambiguities without losing any of the information that we already have (e.g. the information about the playoff division titles for Edmonton). The basic idea would be to do the following:

• have a chapter somewhere in the NHL article which describes the concept of "division titles" and the ambiguities,
• to clearly qualify the term "division title" when the context is not clear
• to count all division titles, be it regular season or playoffs.

Here are the changes that I think would reach that goal:

• The fact that there are no officially sanctioned "division titles" but that teams still claim them and that the teams are inconsistent with each other is a interesting fact in itself and should be documented on Wikipedia. And I even found an article which discusses the topic a little bit: [1]. I would suggest a subchapter in the "Trophies and awards -> Teams" section of the NHL article. Maybe call it "Unofficial titles" and have it read something like:
  • Apart from the NHL-sanctioned trophies, which teams normally recognize by putting up banners in the rafters of their arena, most teams also claim inofficial titles, often also by putting up banners in their arena's rafters. One example is the division title or division championship. In most of the years of the existence of the NHL, the meaning of that term was unambiguous: the team that received the most points in its division at the end of the regular season claimed the division title for that division. But between the 1981-82 and 1992-93 seasons, the playoffs were organized along divisions, with the Stanley Cup quarterfinals being named the division finals. During these years, some teams, e.g. the Calgary Flames and the Edmonton Oilers, claimed the division title when they won the playoff division finals, while other teams still used the regular season results and some teams even used both definitions. This could lead to situations where two teams would claim the division title for the same division in one season or one team would claim two division titles for the same season.
• Since there is no consistent handling of division titles between the different teams, we are not bound to a certain definition. Instead we could chose one which is used by at least one of the teams and which seems the most consistent to us and gives the most information. And to me, that's the one Detroit is using: we could count regular season and playoff division titles separately and clearly qualify each title. We could do that the following way:
  • Infobox:
    • we could qualify each division title from 81-82 to 92-93. We would not have to qualify any division titles outside of these seasons.
      • Example Edmonton: 14 (1978–79 (WHA), 1982–83 (regular season + playoffs), 1983–84 (regular season + playoffs), 1984–85 (regular season + playoffs), 1985–86 (regular season), 1986–87 (regular season + playoffs), 1987–88 (playoffs), 1989–90 (playoffs), 1990–91 (playoffs), 1991–92 (playoffs))
    • We could link the "Division championships" entry to the new "Unofficial titles" subchapter, see above, to give the reader a way to understand what this term means.
  • "List of <Team> Seasons" pages:
    • Rename the orange key to "regular season division champions" and move it from the "Division" column to the "Regular season -> Finish" column. We would have to change the contents for Edmonton and Vancouver. For some of the Original Six teams, e.g. for Montreal, this would clash with the O'Brien Trophy key, which is also in the "Finish" column. But we could move that key to the "Season" column.
    • Create a new key with a new color and symbol and call it "Playoff division champions". This key will then be used for the seasons 81-82 to 92-93 and be put in the "Division" column.

Spike (talk) 21:12, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

I have edited the part of my comment regarding the current situation for the teams because I had overlooked something _again_ Spike (talk) 21:22, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Just qualify the term division title when the context isn't clear. Conyo14 (talk) 21:40, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

We did go by only regular season titles, until an editor changed some of them (team season & team infoboxes), earlier this year. Thus muddying the waters. As result we have (for examples) the Kings & the Oilers of the 1990-91 season, being shown as Smythe Division champions. The Oilers & Canucks as Smythe Division champions, in the 1991-92 season. GoodDay (talk) 22:58, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

I've restored the team regular season & team infoboxes to regular season criteria. This was required for only the Oilers & Flames. If anyone objects or reverts? Then we'll need a RFC to settle the matter. GoodDay (talk) 19:39, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

@GoodDay: I also implemented the changes at Template:NHL seasons by team. – sbaio 18:44, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

I have added the chapter regarding division titles that I had suggested further up to National_Hockey_League#Trophies_and_awards. I would also suggest the following changes to remove possible ambiguities:

• changing "Division championships" in Template:Infobox NHL team to "Regular season division championships" (or "Regular season division titles" to not make the term too long).
• changing "<division name> Division champions" to "Regular season <division name> Division champions" in Template:Infobox ice hockey team season
• changing "Division champions" to "Regular season division champions" in the "Key of colors and symbols" on all team season pages.

Spike (talk) 17:54, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

I have reverted your addition at NHL's page, because you based half of that paragraph on a single source, while the other half is unsourced so that is WP:OR to say the least. In addition, there is no need to alter Template:Infobox ice hockey team season and Template:Infobox ice hockey team season since there officially is no "regular season" or "playoffs" champion regarding divisions. A simple note would be the best solution for that. – sbaio 18:28, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

I totally understand your issue with the second part of the paragraph. But as you may have seen from the discussion above at #What does "division title" and/or "division championship" mean in NHL-related articles? and the discussions linked in that discussion, there seems to be confusion about this topic on here and I wanted to document it and provide the explanation as best as I understood it. There would be a possible way to reference it: by linking to photos which show the division title banners in the arena rafters. I know that those are terrible sources but I think they are the best possible sources.

But, more generally, your revert, your mention of OR, and all these discussions lead me to a question: why do we even mention the topic "division titles" at all on Wikipedia? Why do we put them in team infoboxes or team season pages? Doing that also looks to me like original research because I know of no organization or publication which defines what an NHL division title is and I know of no organization or publication which records division titles. Further, the editors on Wikipedia do not even seem to agree on what a division title is. Or am I missing something? Is there some place we could cite for the division titles? Spike (talk) 19:04, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

@Spike: because I know of no organization or publication which defines what an NHL division title is and I know of no organization or publication which records division titles. – NHL quite clearly says so on their website that division winner is a regular season thing. – sbaio 14:38, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

I tried to find an explanation directly on nhl.com and I googled the terms "division champion", "division championship", "division title", "division win", and "division winner" with "site:nhl.com" and most of the hits were news articles, where the terms were used but not defined. The only explainer pages that I found were https://www.nhl.com/de/info/hockey-glossary and https://records.nhl.com/history/playoff-formats (where the phrase "division title" is only used in connection with the 1926/27 season, where it refers to the playoffs, not the regular season). Are you referring to one of these pages?

In general, I believe it would be very helpful for a reader to have the concept "division title" explained to them. Therefore I think a chapter about it would be a good idea. Maybe I could add the information from the NHL itself as references, to not make it as much of OR. How about the following?

==== Unofficial titles ====

Apart from the NHL-sanctioned trophies, which teams often recognize by putting up banners in the rafters of their arenas, many teams also claim unofficial titles, often also by putting up banners in their rafters. One example is the division title or division championship. Currently, the term unambiguously refers to the team that received the most points in its division at the end of the regular season. But in some previous seasons, e.g. the 1926/27 to 1927/28 seasons and the 1981/82 to 1992/93 seasons, when the playoffs where organized along divisions, the term without qualification could also refer to the team which won the corresponding playoff series.

Spike (talk) 17:20, 5 November 2023 (UTC) Spike (talk) 17:20, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

There’s a New York Times article that discusses the time when the Islanders attempted to hang a "Patrick Playoff Champions" banner and the NHL told them to remove it. I believe you may be able to find it linked on page 81 of this talk page archives in one of my comments (I’m not positive it’s page 81, but it should be a fairly recent one). 1995hoo (talk) 18:23, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Thank you very much for that info! I found the article and I have added the proposed chapter from above, expanded by information from that NYT article, to National_Hockey_League#Division_titles. Spike (talk) 22:00, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Those changes would introduce headaches & confusion, IMHO. GoodDay (talk) 18:40, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

References

Removal of retired numbers and HOF tables

An editor has removed tables for retired numbers (edit 1) and hall of famers (edit 2) at San Jose Sharks page citing MOS:NO-TABLES. Similar removal was done at List of New York Islanders award winners (edit). Is that supposed to be done for other teams or is that just a personal interpretation of the guideline? – sbaio 16:45, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

Looks like it should be both. Those edits appear to be fine in the context of MOS:NO-TABLES. Whether they are applied to other teams in similar circumstances is up to personal interpretation though. I'm sure User:Wracking could explain a bit too. Conyo14 (talk) 17:02, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

That was me! I think it's a pretty clear interpretation of MOS:NO-TABLES, which says that lists or prose are preferred for simple lists. This is generally considered an accessibility issue (for screen readers, editors, and mobile users). I did my best to not remove any content, but please correct me if I could've done it better.

As for whether this should be done for other teams, I think it's case-by-case. For example, I think a table at Toronto Maple Leafs#Retired numbers provides useful and navigable information as 19 players have had their number retired, but it is not needed at San Jose Sharks#Retired numbers as the Sharks have only retired one player's number. Wracking ^talk! 17:03, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

Personally, in the name of consistency; I feel that a prose list is fine for HOFers, but the tables seem to be a better layout for retired numbers. The Kip 04:13, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

We should keep the HOF/Retired numbers style consistent, across the 32 NHL teams. FWIW, I wish the team captains lists were also consistent, across all the NHL teams. GoodDay (talk) 17:31, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm not totally sure I understand if you think my edits were okay, and I don't want to proceed if there's an active dispute. While I understand the desire for consistency, I don't think it makes sense in practice. See above, where I provide the example of Toronto and San Jose, who have retired 19 and 1 players' numbers, respectively. I don't think it makes sense to present this information in the same manner. If a person is going from article to article for this information, they're better off consulting List of National Hockey League retired numbers, which is formatted in a consistent manner. Wracking ^talk! 22:15, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

I agree with the edits made by Wracking. Flibirigit (talk) 01:08, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

WP:NCIH again...

An editor has started a discussion at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (ice hockey)#The "no diacritics rule" is old-fashioned and disrespectful. Everyone is welcome to give their opinion about diacritics (again) in that discussion. – sbaio 12:29, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Johnny Beecher (ice hockey)#Requested move 25 October 2023

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Johnny Beecher (ice hockey)#Requested move 25 October 2023 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. estar8806 (talk) ★ 03:09, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Flyers' alternate captains, in 2022-23 & 2023-24 seasons

@Vancouver Canucks 1 fan: & @98.21.56.147:, it would really be helpful if you both would agree on whether or not Sean Couturier is/isn't an alternate captain for the Flyers in the 2022-23 & 2023-24 seasons. At the moment we have him as being one at Sean Couturier, Template:Philadelphia Flyers roster & List of current NHL captains and alternate captains, while 'not' being one at 2022-23 Philadelphia Flyers season & 2023-24 Philadelphia Flyers season pages' infoboxes. Which is it? GoodDay (talk) 02:23, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

So, I did my digging. The IP was correct in that only Scott Laughton donned the 'A'. Sean Couturier did not play a game last season (2022–23), so he could not have been an alternate captain. The source the IP gave is the best ref for it. If Sean donned the 'A' during the pre-season, then it's a different story. Conyo14 (talk) 03:45, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

I've contacted the IP (who likely isn't aware of being contacted) & I've contacted Van, who appears to be ignoring me. Yet both of them contacted me a few days ago. Also, both have been ignoring my pings to them. Maybe, you can get them to communicate. GoodDay (talk) 03:51, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

@GoodDay

Sean Gerald Couturier (born December 7, 1992) is an American-born Canadian professional ice hockey player and alternate captain of the Philadelphia Flyers of the National Hockey League (NHL). The Flyers selected him eighth overall in the 2011 NHL Entry Draft. Couturier won his first Frank J. Selke Trophy for his play in the 2019–20 season . that's his official wiki page.

Another page I found stated this,

Sean Couturier

Couturier officially became the Flyers’ longest-tenured player when Claude Giroux was traded to the Florida Panthers in March 2023, although he hasn’t played a game since becoming that. Still, there’s no doubting Couturier’s importance on and off the ice. He’s been an alternate captain since 2017-18, which is also the year he emerged as one of the game’s premier defensive centers.

It was no secret that center was one of the team’s biggest weaknesses last season, to the point where natural winger Noah Cates was moved there in his first full NHL season. Cutter Gauthier’s jump to the NHL level should help alleviate those concerns. But if that’s coupled with Couturier returning to form, the Flyers could have a wealth of centers, especially if Cates and Morgan Frost continue to grow.

Flyers' Couturier, Atkinson Set to Return to Lineup (thehockeywriters.com)

October 9, 2023 by Andrew McGuinness Vancouver Canucks 1 fan (talk) 04:19, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

also like i said before sorry i didnt reply im busy with school im a grade 12 and i have multiple massive assignments i only edit wiki pages or reply to messages when im available, sorry for the incovenience. Vancouver Canucks 1 fan (talk) 04:26, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

These don't prove anything. So, the source the IP provided is the best one. I agree with Good Day that if you can't come up with a reasonable counterargument in the time he gave, it should be reverted. Don't fret over this btw, school comes first. Conyo14 (talk) 04:30, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

honeslty i give up thing Couturier should not be captains @GoodDay and @Conyo14 i will personally remove him from the list myself have a good day guys. i feel that couturier is not coming back for a long time possibly he is gonna retire. Vancouver Canucks 1 fan (talk) 04:34, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

Umm, he's playing this season... Conyo14 (talk) 04:38, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

i think his career is winding down Vancouver Canucks 1 fan (talk) 04:39, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

their i edited it and removed Sean Couturier as the Alternate Captain of the Philadelphia Flyers. Vancouver Canucks 1 fan (talk) 04:38, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

@Conyo14 and @GoodDayi just noticed that capfriendly also lists couturier as alternate captain but i did remove him because i watch flyers games and he has No A i just watched his last game

Sean Couturier Contract, Cap Hit, Salary and Stats - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps Vancouver Canucks 1 fan (talk) 04:41, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

I've removed from all the other pages, Couturier as being an alternate captain. PS - Wish the IP would communicate more though & revert less, in future. GoodDay (talk) 04:43, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

the ip account doesnt exist anymore i looked i couldnt find it anymore. i think me and you are the main owners of the page now Vancouver Canucks 1 fan (talk) 04:45, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

Check his contributions, he's still around, being basically an SPA on this topic. GoodDay (talk) 04:49, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

oh ok thanks now i found it but i still think you @Conyo14 and me are the main editors Vancouver Canucks 1 fan (talk) 04:51, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

National ice hockey teams for the Soviet Union, CIS and Russia

User:Wayne Gretzky The Great One 99 has made repeated edits to merge competition results for the Soviet Union and CIS into the Russia men's national ice hockey team. As per previous discussion at Talk:Russia men's national ice hockey team, the results are kept separate. Any newer thoughts on this? Flibirigit (talk) 18:24, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Similarly, the user has repeatedly merged results for the Soviet Union men's national junior ice hockey team into the Russia men's national junior ice hockey team, without discussion. Flibirigit (talk) 18:29, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Keep them separate. On a side note, an IP is coming now and then to remove information about Russian teams' suspension from competition due to war. – sbaio 18:55, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Please see my comment in the following thread. Flibirigit (talk) 21:07, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

The Soviet national team, CIS national team & the Russian natonal team are separate entities. They should treated as such. GoodDay (talk) 19:19, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Seconding this. The Kip 19:40, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Thirded. Conyo14 (talk) 20:42, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. Kaiser matias (talk) 00:55, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

IP addresses persistently removing information related to international sport bans on Russia and Belarus

As noted above, an IP address removed information regarding Russia's ban by the IIHF. The problem exists across multiple articles related to ice hockey and figure skating, and possibly other sports with respect to Russia and Belarus.

Here are the regularly vandalized articles I am aware of:

Ice hockey

• International Ice Hockey Federation, Ice Hockey Federation of Russia, Russia men's national ice hockey team, Russia men's national junior ice hockey team, Belarus men's national junior ice hockey team, Luc Tardif

Figure skating

• Figure Skating Federation of Russia, 2022–23 figure skating season, 2023 European Figure Skating Championships, Alexandra Trusova, Anna Shcherbakova

Here are some of the problematic IP addresses:

• 85.160.0.13
• 85.160.1.205
• 85.160.3.255
• 85.160.4.67
• 85.160.12.47
• 85.160.20.178
• 85.160.34.133
• 85.160.39.136
• 85.160.41.122
• 85.160.43.11
• 85.160.43.122
• 85.160.43.136
• 85.160.47.41
• 85.160.49.19
• 85.160.58.235

Aside from reverting vandalism, any thoughts on how to handle this? Flibirigit (talk) 21:06, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

It's a range of IPs and should be handled at WP:ANI. Likely the same person using a dynamic IP. Conyo14 (talk) 22:29, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Bring it to WP:ANI. GoodDay (talk) 22:31, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

In case you haven't seen it before, {{IP range}} is very helpful for understanding IP contributors and giving the range to an admin. You can also then see the contributions by IP addresses in that range (helpful for finding other disruptive contributions). See here:

Extended content

Sorted 15 IPv4 addresses: 85.160.0.13 85.160.1.205 85.160.3.255 85.160.4.67 85.160.12.47 85.160.20.178 85.160.34.133 85.160.39.136 85.160.41.122 85.160.43.11 85.160.43.122 85.160.43.136 85.160.47.41 85.160.49.19 85.160.58.235 Total affected Affected addresses Given addresses Range Contribs 16K 16384 15 85.160.0.0/18 contribs 5126 4096 5 85.160.0.0/20 contribs 1 1 85.160.20.178 contribs 1 1 85.160.34.133 contribs 1 1 85.160.39.136 contribs 1024 4 85.160.40.0/22 contribs 1 1 85.160.47.41 contribs 1 1 85.160.49.19 contribs 1 1 85.160.58.235 contribs 2312 2048 4 85.160.0.0/21 contribs 1 1 85.160.12.47 contribs 1 1 85.160.20.178 contribs 1 1 85.160.34.133 contribs 1 1 85.160.39.136 contribs 1 1 85.160.41.122 contribs 256 3 85.160.43.0/24 contribs 1 1 85.160.47.41 contribs 1 1 85.160.49.19 contribs 1 1 85.160.58.235 contribs 1162 1024 3 85.160.0.0/22 contribs 1 1 85.160.4.67 contribs 1 1 85.160.12.47 contribs 1 1 85.160.20.178 contribs 1 1 85.160.34.133 contribs 1 1 85.160.39.136 contribs 1 1 85.160.41.122 contribs 128 2 85.160.43.0/25 contribs 1 1 85.160.43.136 contribs 1 1 85.160.47.41 contribs 1 1 85.160.49.19 contribs 1 1 85.160.58.235 contribs 525 512 2 85.160.0.0/23 contribs 1 1 85.160.3.255 contribs 1 1 85.160.4.67 contribs 1 1 85.160.12.47 contribs 1 1 85.160.20.178 contribs 1 1 85.160.34.133 contribs 1 1 85.160.39.136 contribs 1 1 85.160.41.122 contribs 1 1 85.160.43.11 contribs 1 1 85.160.43.122 contribs 1 1 85.160.43.136 contribs 1 1 85.160.47.41 contribs 1 1 85.160.49.19 contribs 1 1 85.160.58.235 contribs 15 1 1 85.160.0.13 contribs 1 1 85.160.1.205 contribs 1 1 85.160.3.255 contribs 1 1 85.160.4.67 contribs 1 1 85.160.12.47 contribs 1 1 85.160.20.178 contribs 1 1 85.160.34.133 contribs 1 1 85.160.39.136 contribs 1 1 85.160.41.122 contribs 1 1 85.160.43.11 contribs 1 1 85.160.43.122 contribs 1 1 85.160.43.136 contribs 1 1 85.160.47.41 contribs 1 1 85.160.49.19 contribs 1 1 85.160.58.235 contribs

Wracking ^talk! 00:01, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Could these IPs be related to Max Arosev (talk · contribs)? If I am not mistaken this particular editor used to run around and remove anything "anti-Russian". On a side note, you can always ask for these pages to be protected so that IPs would not be able to edit these pages. – sbaio 10:13, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

The behaviour is similar to Max Arosev (talk · contribs). Does anyone have time to investigate? I'm busy in real life this weekend. Flibirigit (talk) 14:03, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

• AIV or ANI are the proper venues for this. Ravenswing 10:28, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Here are more problematic IP addresses:

• 85.160.0.13
• 85.160.8.188
• 85.160.12.47
• 85.160.13.25
• 85.160.34.15
• 85.160.33.188
• 85.160.34.202
• 85.160.40.33
• 85.160.42.41
• 85.160.42.156
• 85.160.43.76
• 85.160.43.136
• 85.160.44.43
• 85.160.44.111
• 85.160.49.19
• 85.160.59.111

I will be busy in real life this weekend. I hope someone else can help in dealing with this! Flibirigit (talk) 13:02, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

I've sent the links & report over to the administrator's board, for them to check over. GoodDay (talk) 14:40, 25 November 2023 (UTC)