Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard

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Contentious topic edit notices

I've searched to find whether using these mean that an editor does not need to have an alert to be considered aware and couldn't find a statement - although I could have missed one, obviously. Just asking to clearify the issue as if they still need an alert I don't see a need for an edit notice. Thanks. Doug Weller talk 08:59, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

The editnotices fulfill two main purposes:

• Reminding users to be careful when editing
• Informing users about article-specific restrictions such as a one revert rule.

They do not remove the need for user talk page alerts. They are additionally required, though, for taking administrative action against editors who breach article-specific restrictions (Wikipedia:Contentious_topics#Enforcement_of_restrictions, point 2). Thus, administrators are required to place such edit notices when creating a page-specific restriction (Wikipedia:Contentious_topics#Restriction_notices). ~ ToBeFree (talk) 10:48, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

@ToBeFree If you read Template:Contentious topics/editnotice it says "This template can be used as a editnotice on pages that are covered under a contentious topic. When using this template you must specify what contentious topic this page is under using one of the decision codes. If the page has active restrictions Template:Contentious topics/page restriction editnotice should be used instead of this template." Note the "If". The only way that I can interpret that is that this edit notice is for pages with no active restrictions. So the edit notice I'm asking about is presumbably just there as a reminder but doesn't satisfy awareness? Even though it says the article is a contentious topic? I'm not sure I follow the logic. It looks to me as though this was missed at the time. Doug Weller talk 11:22, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

{{Contentious topics/editnotice|a-i}} looks as follows: [1]

• If there are topic-wide restrictions, they're displayed by {{Contentious topics/editnotice}}.
• If there are page-specific restrictions, {{Contentious topics/page restriction editnotice}} needs to be used to manually describe them.

If none of both is the case, {{Contentious topics/editnotice}} can be used as a friendly reminder, but an edit notice never creates formal awareness by itself. I understand that this may be counter-intuitive. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 11:33, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

@ToBeFree Yes, it's counter-intuitive. I just remembered that I encounter editors who have never responded to anything on their talk page and may not know it exists. Which could be an acceptable excuse for saying they shouldn't be sanctioned. But if the page or pages they were editing did have edit notices .... Doug Weller talk 11:53, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Assuming that edit notices were sufficient and talk page notifications were not, how would you inform users about a topic ban placed in response to disruption? ~ ToBeFree (talk) 12:19, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

@ToBeFree Block so they find their talk page seems to be what people do, generally seems to work. Doug Weller talk 18:46, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Okay, so my point is: There is no way around the user's talk page in the end. I could claim not having seen an editnotice, but "I haven't seen the message on my talk page" is generally not accepted as an excuse. The talk page message, though, informs the user about the existence of page restrictions and their requirement to comply with them. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:27, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

@ToBeFree Definitely. And I know I miss both talk page notices - I usually edit without looking at the talk page - and can miss edit notices. Doug Weller talk 20:52, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

I did suggest at the time that the use of edit notices for pages without page-specific restrictions be discouraged. However the committee chose to keep the status quo: the template is available should any admin choose to make use of it, without guidance on the advisability of doing so. isaacl (talk) 18:32, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

As per Wikipedia:Contentious topics § Awareness of contentious topics, an editor must be alerted once about the contentious topic system using a specific template placed on their talk page. After being made aware of the system, they can be notified through other means about specific areas that have been designated as contentious topics. Footnote m lists some specific circumstances when an editor is presumed to be aware of a specific contentious topic area. I don't know if things have changed, but at one point no area other than COVID-19, across both arbitration committee-designated and community-designated discretionary sanctions topics, had edit notices for articles for which no specific editing restriction has been enacted. (This was before the arbitration committee assumed responsibility for the COVID-19 designation.) To avoid exacerbating the banner blindness issue, personally I feel it is better not to have edit notices simply to identify that an article falls within the scope of a designated contentious topic. Because edit notices are frequently overlooked, and they aren't displayed to editors on mobile devices, in my view (as an ordinary editor) I do not feel that a message in an edit notice should be considered to be adequate notification. isaacl (talk) 11:01, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

@Isaacl I take your point. But in that case maybe it shouldn't be used at all. Doug Weller talk 11:23, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Yes, as I said, I agree edit notices for this circumstance shouldn't be used. isaacl (talk) 17:59, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

@Isaacl I’ve r never used one and don’t intend to. I think I understand the issue as much as is possible now. Thanks. Doug Weller talk 18:48, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

(Edit notices are displayed to editors on mobile devices.) ~ ToBeFree (talk) 11:23, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

I vaguely remembered something was done, but I couldn't remember the details. I've updated Wikipedia:Editnotice with a reference to Wikipedia:Mobile communication bugs. Thanks for the correction. isaacl (talk) 17:59, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Oh! Thanks for yours too ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:11, 29 May 2023 (UTC)