Wikipedia:VisualEditor/Default State RFC

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

I've closed this RFC in response from a plea on Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard for a non participant. Below is a summary of the questions and my read on the consensus -- in some cases the individual subsections have more detail. Overall, community participants indicate strong feelings the current Visual Editor implementation isn't good but there is support for the concept as long as it doesn't preclude direct wikisource editing. I was disappointed to see opposition to visual editor on the basis that we should keep it harder for newcomers to edit which, of course, is contrary to a core Foundation principle.

3.1 Question 1: When a new account is created, should the preference be set to disable VE ("opt-in") or to enable VE ("opt-out")?

Opt-in

3.2 Question 2: When an editor is editing anonymously, should VE be presented by default?

No

3.3 Question 2.5: If VE is presented to anonymous users, how visible should it be?

Link should open wikitext editor and provide link to Visual Editor

3.4 Question 3: Should the preference be set to disable VE for all existing accounts, requiring editors that choose to test VE to specifically enable it?

Consensus is editors should make explicit choice to become beta testers, therefore the preference state for existing accounts should be changed

3.5 Question 4: Should the user interface explicitly warn editors that pressing the "edit" button is using beta software?

Yes

3.6 Question 5: Should the VisualEditor support basic wikimarkup shortcuts, such as bold, italics, and Link?

Yes

4.1 1. That visual editor, in its present form, should NOT be made available to unregistered users, and that it should not be made available to anonymous IP users in the future, without a community-wide discussion & vote.

This proposal failed

4.2 2. That visual editor should be shelved completely, and things go back to how they were before.

A majority of editors felt that, in its current state, the Visual Editor should be scrapped, but many editors felt that a well done implementation would benefit Wikipedia.

4.3 3. Visual editor should display two editing panes by default, one WYSIWYG pane and a smaller pane for source code editing.

There's support for a two pane option but not necessarily by default.

4.4 4. The section edit tabs should be removed for the visual editor

No consensus

4.5 5. Visual Editor should always be optional

Yes

4.6 6. "Edit source" after section titles on talk pages should be changed back to "edit"

No consensus

4.7 7. The default action upon clicking a section edit link should be "edit source", not to open VE

No (apparently this option is bad for mobile devices)

4.8 8. Should we add a link in the edit page to switch between wikitext and VE?

No consensus

NE Ent 14:42, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

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Note RfC format

This page is a Wikipedia Request for comment (RfC). Please avoid editing the top 2 page sections, and instead, reply in the sections below, in response to various questions or topics below.

Overview

VisualEditor is the new interface that people currently get if they click on the "edit beta" button at the top of an article. The word "beta" means it is new software which still has some bugs in it. VisualEditor (VE) is an attempt to provide a really easy "what you see is what you get" interface, which does not require any knowledge of markup language. Markup language is a simple kind of computer code that Wikipedia editors have been using to edit since 2001. Editors who do not wish to use Visual Editor and who prefer to work using the markup language use the "edit source" button instead.

WMF has now provided a preference that allows individual editors to disable VisualEditor. This preference currently defaults to enabling the software, meaning that any new editor is exposed to VisualEditor, although that editor is not warned in advance that the editor is in beta test and may damage the article or behave in unexpected ways. Similarly, the option of using VE is presented to editors who are not logged in, although those editors are not warned in advance that the editor is in beta test and may damage the article or behave in unexpected ways.

This RFC (Request For Comment) is intended to seek English Wikipedia's consensus on whether this is the correct behaviour for this preference. It is true that the WMF is not bound by this consensus, but they have shown a willingness to respect the decision for both the Dutch and German Wikipedias, both of which have persuaded WMF to default to disabling VE until an editor changes his preference, making it an "opt-in" preference.

This RFC is structured around a few simple questions. It is not a vehicle for insulting WMF, nor is it a vehicle for venting any frustrations about VisualEditor. The options are purposely not mutually exclusive: it would be quite possible, for example, to favor leaving the switch unchanged for existing editors while making it default to "disable" for any new accounts. Similarly, one could believe that it is legitimate to leave VE enabled for anonymous editors and also favor changing the user interface to clearly indicate that VE is in beta.

Questions

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Question 1: When a new account is created, should the preference be set to disable VE ("opt-in") or to enable VE ("opt-out")?

Opt-in

1. Opt-in until out of Beta. My experience is that nothing drives people away from a program /web site faster than buggy soft ware. But wiki mark up is not perfect either, and possibly t reason VE bombs is because we have so many styles and transcluded templates. This discuss also does have tones of "Bah! Pictures! what s wrong with pen and paper?)"Jabberwoch (talk) 20:18, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
2. Opt-in. Nguyen QuocTrung (talk)
3. Opt-in because beta software should always be opt-in. --Robertiki (talk) 11:05, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
4. Opt-in because the software itself requires tweaking and because I think editing the source acts as a useful barrier against poor editing. Making editing easier and more visual is likely to encourage vandalism - we'll have exactly the same number of productive editors as before, we'll simply add some noise on top of that. Bandanamerchant (talk) 09:45, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
5. opt-in because the Visual Editor is not ready for prime time yet.
   Yellowdesk (talk) 02:50, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
6. opt-in wikicode takes effort to understand. those are facts.
7. opt in because with a new product not everyone may know how to opt out so then you can't get an accurate poll of who supports it, it should be very visible, but not opt out. 0alx0 (talk) 16:42, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
8. Opt in because it doesn't currently work in my browser (Opera) - it just sits there loading forever. It doesn't seem good practice to make something a default before it's out of beta testing, which by definition should mean it's not yet fully tested. That way those who want to test it can, but the fact that it's not yet ready won't put off less experienced users. --Tremolo (talk) 11:31, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

   You should report this as a bug -- VE is supposed to be disabled entirely on browsers which don't support it. SAnanian (WMF) (talk) 15:06, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

9. Beta software should always be opt-in. Not all editors want to test new code.—Kww(talk) 01:25, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
10. Opt-in until more of the bugs are fixed. VE (in my experience) is not ready to be the default yet. (Just to be clear, I think VE is going to be a great thing someday, and is the way of the future; for now, though, it's not ready. ~Adjwilley (talk) 01:35, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
11. Opt-in. The software just isn't there yet. Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 01:41, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
12. MUST be Opt-in. VE is a disaster for new editors. It's just too darned slow. Guaranteed to make them lose interest in the project. A discussion on this (with pretty strong unanimity) is underway at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Editor Retention#Visual editor's slothfulness is an editor retention issue. HiLo48 (talk) 02:36, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

    slowness? I don't notice any. even on my cheapo laptop. unless you're running a 10-year old system (and then it's way past time to upgrade), it shouldn't be significantly slower, unless it's coded inefficiently -- Aunva6^{talk - contribs} 04:34, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

    Aunva6 - did you bother to look at the link I provided? Or just assume that your experience is common to everyone? I learnt that was a bad approach to life when I was about 8 years old. HiLo48 (talk) 07:13, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

    sorry, misunderstood. i thought you meant it slows the site down even when not in use. my bad. it is really, really slow to load up, even on my i7-920. not sure how they managed to make it so slow, but that alone should put this into the Alpha status, it's not even ready for beta! -- Aunva6^{talk - contribs} 00:52, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

    HiLo48 - That was a pretty unpleasant and unnecessary flaming - but looking at your history and general weaselling I guess to be expected.Plingsby (talk) 18:42, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    Anytime you'd like to go buy that upgrade for me, no strings attached, you go right ahead. -- Joe (talk) 19:05, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

13. Snow, until it is more stable.--Canoe1967 (talk) 02:40, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

    Hi Canoe1967. I'm having difficulty understanding your comment here. What do you mean by "Snow"? --MZMcBride (talk) 09:07, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    It should be a 'snowball' change because as of now the vote is 212/20. I think it is obvious that there are still issues that should be resolved. Until then editors should be given the opt-in option after being warned of the downside issues.--Canoe1967 (talk) 15:44, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

14. Opt-in, per the above comments. I've tried using VE three times over the past few weeks, on three separate pages. Each time, it didn't work right, and when I went to report the problems, I saw that the issues had already been reported (but not fixed.) I expected bugs, but not a 0% success rate. This tells me that the software is not yet ready for widespread use, although I think anyone who wants to help beta test it should be able to do so. 28bytes (talk) 02:45, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

    Hi 28bytes. As you may or may not be aware, each edit made with VisualEditor (VE) is tagged. For example, here is one of my edits made with VisualEditor. According to this same search, you currently have 0 VisualEditor edits. Can you please elaborate on the issues you're having with VisualEditor? --MZMcBride (talk) 07:36, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    Sure, I'll be happy to. First, I tried to edit a section of a large page, and got this, repeatedly. Apparently you cannot edit a section (it looks like you were the one to report that problem originally, in May: T50429), so VisualEditor attempts to do its thing with the entire page, which it can't reliably do on large pages. I first tried this a month ago, and double-checked yesterday to see if this was still an issue: it is. Second, I tried to fix a bit of broken markup, which VisualEditor interpreted to mean I wanted to retain the broken markup but wrap it in <nowiki> tags. This led me to T51686, which even Jimbo acknowledged ought to be addressed: However, it is extremely well known, even by non-editors, that square brackets make a link, and the odds of someone actually wanting literal square brackets are very very small. Making the visual editor default to interpreting square brackets as a link sounds right to me. Why does Visual Editor assume someone typing brackets wants literal brackets? That seems like a very strange assumption. As has been pointed out earlier today, Visual Editor both requires editors to be familiar with the bracket syntax in one location (when editing linked elements of an infobox, for example) but refuses to accept it in another. Either treating [[ as a trigger to bring up the link insertion dialog or simply converting a properly formatted link to what the editor intended would be so much better than just giving them the stern warning You are using VisualEditor - wikitext does not work here. Click "Edit source" to edit the page in wikitext mode – unsaved changes will be lost. Speaking of which, why will unsaved changes be lost? When I'm using the WYSIWYG editor on other websites, I can quickly toggle between WYSIWYG mode and markup mode. That's a pretty basic feature. Why was that not included in the "beta" release? So you are correct, I have not saved any VE edits, because VE would either not (easily) let me do what I wanted to do, or would not even load the page at all. Don't get me wrong, I love the idea behind the VisualEditor – Wikipedia badly needs this. But the JavaScript warnings and lack of a toggle between two modes are dealbreakers for me. (Side note: there's a handy "–" link in the standard editor that inserts an en dash; is there a VE equivalent to that?) 28bytes (talk) 15:39, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    I find it quickest to type Alt-0150 on a PC (easier on a Mac of course). Andreas JN466 16:02, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    Thanks. I guess I was hoping VisualEditor offered a more... visual... way of doing it. 28bytes (talk) 20:17, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

15. opt-in, beta software is, by definition, that which is too buggy for a full release. this might even be borderline alpha, but it still got pushed out. there is a reason that beta is typically an opt-in testing phase. you get more focused feedback from those who will know what is the fault of VE, and what is not. -- Aunva6^{talk - contribs} 04:34, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

    Hi Aunva6. I'm trying to understand your concerns with VisualEditor. As you may or may not be aware, each edit made with VisualEditor (VE) is tagged. According to a search of your edits, it looks like you currently have one edit made with VisualEditor, which looks completely fine to me. Can you please elaborate? --MZMcBride (talk) 07:40, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    my problem is that "beta" software was forced on all users of the wiki. beta's are opt-in for a reason. not only does it save the project from looking bad due to all the bugs, the users who opt-in are more likely to know what problems are likely caused byu the software, and what is due to the nuances of the wiki markup. -- Aunva6^{talk - contribs} 15:14, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

16. opt-in. As a host at The Teahouse, I have been watching discussions revolving around use of and confusion about use of the VE from new editors who swing by to ask questions about it (see [1], [2], and [3]). The experience has generally been confusing for new editors and, as a host, I and others have found it difficult to feel motivated to give advice on how to use an interface that is frustrating to a new editor. It should therefore certainly be an opt-in feature. I, Jethrobot ^{drop me a line} (note: not a bot!) 05:12, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
    • To be fair, there is now a full opt-out option in the editing section of preferences (which two of the links you point to asked about), and references have been improved since the comment you posted (to get rid of the confusing first step to select an existing citation). Still a lot of room for improvement, to be sure.--Eloquence* 06:29, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
17. New editors sign up (hopefully) to improve the encyclopedia, not to serve as involuntary beta testers. m:Research:VisualEditor's effect on newly registered editors/Results shows that bugs in VisualEditor are destroying new editors' productivity and enthusiasm. MER-C 05:42, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

    Hi MER-C. I took a look at the link you provided (m:Research:VisualEditor's effect on newly registered editors/Results) and I'm not quite sure which fact or figure you're pointing to that shows bugs in VisualEditor are "destroying new editors' productivity and enthusiasm." Can you please be more specific? --MZMcBride (talk) 07:41, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

18. One stage further, new editors should have a substantial number of edits behind them before they are give the chance to opt. On many of the most popular pages we have substantial comment messages to help new editor from embarrassing themselves- they need to see these as they start to edit. New editors should not be exposed to software that is not rock solid stable. No-one should be given an open choice before they understand the implications, and they need to have experience in the basics before the choice is meaningful. -- Clem Rutter (talk) 05:57, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
19. Opt-in. I am still of the opinion that traditional wikitext editing is easier for newbies as they can quickly learn from the wikitext typed by other Wikipedians. See also comment by User:I Jethrobot. --AFBorchert (talk) 06:05, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
20. Opt-in during beta period. If things get fixed, we can talk again... Carrite (talk) 06:07, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
21. Opt in. Until serious bugs and limitations are fixed and there is consensus that the software is no longer alpha or beta status. Begoon ^talk 06:17, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
22. Opt in for the time being. Once bugs are fixed and VE is more feature full, we can change this after discussion. --NicoV ^{(Talk on frwiki)} 06:24, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

    With the answer to T52527 (the main problem that add spurious nowiki tags to hundreds of articles every day) being "WON'T FIX", I would even go for totally disable VE now. --NicoV ^{(Talk on frwiki)} 20:45, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

23. Opt-in. It's a failed experiment. How we treat new editors (especially) should not depend on crystal-balling that something will someday work. Yngvadottir (talk) 06:38, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

    Hi Yngvadottir. I'm trying to understand your concerns with VisualEditor, particularly why you feel it's a failed experiment. As you may or may not be aware, each edit made with VisualEditor (VE) is tagged. For example, here is one of my edits made with VisualEditor. According to this same search, you currently have 0 VisualEditor edits. Can you please elaborate on the issues you're having with VisualEditor? --MZMcBride (talk) 07:47, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    It's causing everyone who does try it to break articles, and it was launched without adequate support for references, templates, alt chars ... and it takes ages to load and freezes/crashes. I did not volunteer for the true beta test, and saw all the bug reports from that test before it was made the default, let alone after. Those are my problems with it ... since you ask! Yngvadottir (talk) 12:28, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    Well, not everyone. :-) If we filter Special:RecentChanges to only edits tagged with "visualeditor", we can see that plenty of edits are perfectly fine. But many are not.

    I understand and appreciate that VisualEditor very frustratingly continues to mangle certain edits, often without the user ever being aware. We need to fix this. If you have any more specific information about how/when VisualEditor freezes or crashes (which browsers, which operating systems, etc.), your feedback at Wikipedia:VisualEditor/Feedback or directly at Bugzilla would be invaluable to making VisualEditor suck less. Thank you very much for taking the time to respond to me and to elaborate on why VisualEditor isn't yet up to par. I really appreciate it. --MZMcBride (talk) 14:09, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

24. Opt-in. You're not there yet, by a country mile. The VE beta may even need to be brought back to the initial requirements stage and recast. →StaniStani  07:57, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

    Hi Stanistani. I'm trying to understand your concerns with VisualEditor. As you may or may not be aware, each edit made with VisualEditor (VE) is tagged. According to a search of your edits, it looks like you currently have two edits made with VisualEditor, which both look completely fine to me. Can you please elaborate? --MZMcBride (talk) 07:45, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    Hi MZMcBride. Aside from the numerous unsaved attempts, and the non-support of Internet Explorer(!), and the three folks I've sat with (software engineers all) who cheerfully did a bit of stress-testing as new editors, and concluded that the interface "Looked like a feature-deficient port of CKEditor." <-- nicest comment (comma) there are these two links I've taken into consideration: VisualEditor Feedback & VisualEditor Assigned Bug List - Any further questions? →StaniStani  02:33, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

25. Opt-in. Considering the current state of the Visual Editor, we're only doing a disservice to the new editors by trying to get them to figure out this, clearly, currently broken system. Having it be as an opt-in option for them would mean that just as many new editors (and anyone else) can try it if they'd like, but it isn't forced on them by default. Silverseren^C 09:01, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

    Hi Silverseren. I'm trying to understand your concerns with VisualEditor. As you may or may not be aware, each edit made with VisualEditor (VE) is tagged. According to a search of your edits, it looks like you currently have one VisualEditor edit. This edit looks fine to me and it seems like you've had no issue continuing to use the wikitext (or source) editor and/or avoiding the use of VisualEditor. Can you please elaborate on your concerns, particularly the fear that VisualEditor is being forced upon users? --MZMcBride (talk) 08:20, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

26. Opt-in or get rid of it. It fails (and actually does harm to) it's intended purpose. North8000 (talk) 11:06, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
27. Currently not suitable for public consumption.  Sandstein  10:52, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
28. No-brainer. Anything that is not finished should not be released as the default, when a perfectly usable alternative is already in widespread use. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 11:18, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

    Hi Lukeno94. I'm trying to understand your concerns with VisualEditor. As you may or may not be aware, each edit made with VisualEditor (VE) is tagged. According to a search of your edits, it looks like you currently have 0 VisualEditor edits. Can you please elaborate on your concerns? --MZMcBride (talk) 07:53, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    I have 0 edits because I'd seen the mess VE made in my watchlist before I'd even thought about using it. I'm well aware VE edits are tagged; the nowiki error is obviously a common one, but there are plenty of other weird things I use. I fail to see why I need to elaborate on the above anyway; even the WMF admit the VE isn't finished, and the rest of my statement is common sense. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 08:03, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    Hi Lukeno94. Thanks for getting back to me so quickly. :-)

    So you're commenting on VisualEditor without ever having tried it yourself? I'm not sure what you mean by "other weird things" that you use.

    I think we all agree that VisualEditor has a long way to go, but when you talk about software being "finished," I don't really follow along. Software is never finished. I'm reminded of this comic about having realistic criteria. Do you agree with this? --MZMcBride (talk) 09:29, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    I tried it briefly. It is unsuitable to power users like myself (or anyone who prefers to work with the source directly). When I talk about software being finished, this refers to there being a stable, almost bug-free version, that is feature-complete; the version that is released to end-users, and then only gets some minor bugfixes and general maintenance updates. This is a pre-alpha program that is being presented as a beta, which in itself is totally wrong (betas are supposed to be almost feature-complete, this isn't close to that); add in to the fact that the WMF are forcing this half-finished, half-functional, half-assed editor on experienced editors and rookies alike, and you get the shit-storm that's going on at the moment. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 09:35, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    Hi Lukeno94. I somewhat agree with the labeling and I agree with you regarding power-users, however I'm not sure why you say users are being forced by the Wikimedia Foundation. Who's being forced and how? As far as I can tell, the current interface provides side-by-side wikitext (or source) editing and visual editing, with a user preference to completely disable VisualEditor from the interface altogether. If you have the time, I'd really appreciate any feedback you might have about why you feel this is being forced upon you (you're hardly alone in feeling this way, as demonstrated on this page). It would help to get a better understanding of this feeling so that the Wikimedia Foundation's behavior can be adjusted accordingly, as necessary and appropriate. --MZMcBride (talk) 09:40, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    I'm struggling not to get very incredulous here. This editor was enabled by default for everyone, regardless of if they wanted it or not. The WMF have made the "edit" button refer to the VE; so muscle memory will end up causing people to use the VE without wanting to. Also, making the old editor work on the "edit source" button will confuse new users, irregular users or even untechnically minded users, since it introduces a confusing term for them. The fact that the VE was rolled out to new users and IPs, even after it had been clearly demonstrated to be completely unready is a CLEAR example of the WMF not giving a shit and just barreling on regardless. As is the half-assed nature of the "turn off VE" debacle; first refusing to instate the switch, then enabling it with the "Temporarily disable VisualEditor while it is in beta", which is NOT what people want - we want a proper on/off switch that the WMF can't remove at their will by falsely claiming the VE is "finished". And the button is still invalid, because VE isn't a beta. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 09:48, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    Hey Lukeno94. I apologize if my responses came off as badgering or trolling or anything of that nature. I assure you they're not.

    I completely agree with you that parts of the way that this has been deployed have been subpar. I screamed louder (and frankly meaner) than most about the deliberate removal of the user preference to completely disable VisualEditor and I was very glad when it was restored. I agree that the half-assed compromise (i.e., labeling the user preference as temporary) is not a sustainable solution, but as a temporary measure, it's a step in the right direction.

    I also think you're absolutely right, after having read beta software, that calling VisualEditor "beta" is not a good idea at this time. VisualEditor simply isn't beta software. I noted this at Wikipedia:VisualEditor/Improvements with this edit and I'll be filing a bug shortly to try to get the software re-labeled here as soon as possible.

    Thank you very much for taking the time to explain your frustration with VisualEditor and its deployment. If you have other ideas for ways to make VisualEditor less annoying/cumbersome/painful/awful, please share at Wikipedia:VisualEditor/Improvements. The community absolutely should be able to set priorities and triage what's most important to them and their work throughout VisualEditor's development. --MZMcBride (talk) 14:16, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    Luke wrote: " Also, making the old editor work on the "edit source" button will confuse new users, irregular users or even untechnically minded users, since it introduces a confusing term for them." I support this comment whole-heartedly. I've edited here for years, though perhaps irregularly, and I'm untechnically minded. Source to me means something connected to citation/reference. I (still) find "edit source" confusing. --Hordaland (talk) 23:01, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

29. Opt-in. At the very least until all the bugs are fixed and it is able to support all the commonly used features that the normal editor allows. Although even then such a major change to the default editor should have community consensus before becoming opt-in. Sarahj2107 (talk) 11:48, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

    Opt-in by default iff the option for no default (see discussion section) is not possible or as a temporary state until it is. Thryduulf (talk) 12:02, 30 July 2013 (UTC). Withdrawn. 13:52, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

30. Not ready. Andreas JN466 12:35, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

    Before anyone asks me: I have made plenty of edits with VE on German Wikipedia. The reason I haven't made any here is that on English Wikipedia I have never been able to get the VisualEditor to progress past the blue bars, which just keep flashing forever, without ever letting me edit the article. :) Even that I only get when I right-click on "Edit" and open VE in a new window. If I just left-click on "Edit" in the normal way, nothing happens. At all. There are people on German Wikipedia with the same problem in reverse: they can use VE here, but when they click on it on their home wiki, nothing happens. Andreas JN466 13:51, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    Hey Andreas. That's really good to know. :-) If you have the time/inclination, filing a bug report in Bugzilla might be very helpful in diagnosing the issue that you're having.

    Off-hand (and with very little information), it sounds like a JavaScript conflict of some kind. Your Web browser has a JavaScript error console somewhere within it. If you can try to use VisualEditor and simultaneously check that browser JavaScript error log (sometimes called an error console) for any unusual output, it may help diagnose the issue you're having (e.g., a conflicting local user script or local JavaScript gadget). It's bugs exactly like this that need to get filed/reported so that the developers who are actively working on VisualEditor can fix them. Thanks again for expanding on your previous comment; I really appreciate it. --MZMcBride (talk) 14:01, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    Thanks MZMcBride, will have a look. I'm not on Bugzilla, but have reported it over on de:WP. Andreas JN466 15:58, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    Error message on left-clicking is "Uncaught TypeError: Object function (E,F){return new o.fn.init(E,F)} has no method 'Deferred'". Opening the error console after right-clicking shows "Uncaught TypeError: Not enough arguments". Andreas JN466 16:09, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

31. Opt-in. – Plarem ^{(User talk)} 13:02, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
32. Opt-in. Until community consent on VE's readiness. -- Hillbillyholiday ^talk 13:33, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
33. Opt-in - per User:Kww. →Davey2010→→Talk to me!→ 13:42, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
34. Serving the innocent public with adulterated Kool-Aide, which does not quench thirst, is ill-mannered. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 14:11, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

    Hi Kiefer.Wolfowitz. I'm trying to understand your concerns with VisualEditor. As you may or may not be aware, each edit made with VisualEditor (VE) is tagged. According to a search of your edits, it looks like you currently have 0 VisualEditor edits. Can you please elaborate on your concerns re: Kool-Aide? --MZMcBride (talk) 07:56, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    @MZMcBride: Editing music (GNU Lilypond) and apparently mathematics are beyond the scope of Visual Editor. You might have looked at my comments on VE or at my article contributions. Nobody in their right mind uses VE, and so perspicacious intelligent editors have zero edits using VE. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 08:51, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    That is an insulting, prejudiced personal attack that suddenly declares all users who have edited with VE insane. Insulam Simia (talk) 18:18, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

35. Beta -> opt-in.--Aschmidt (talk) 14:45, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
36. Beta -> Opt-in, no question. -- Andreas Werle (talk) 16:14, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
37. Opt-in, per the above. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 16:49, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
38. Opt-in. No question at this stage. Intothatdarkness 16:56, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
39. Opt-in. It should have been opt in all along. Kumioko (talk) 17:05, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
40. New editors first experiences editing articles can't be *crash*. And that's the only behaviour I can get out of the VE on any article of any decent length. Courcelles 17:27, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
41. Opt-in, at least until the bugs are worked out. Albacore (talk) 17:33, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
42. Gilderien Chat|List of good deeds 17:47, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
43. When I first saw "edit" and "edit source" above the subsection of an article a few weeks ago, I actually thought that it might have some practical use to it; nothing wrong with keeping an open mind, right? But after using the new feature, I feel very confident in saying that it is a textbook example of a solution in search of a problem. When I first started editing all the way back in 2007, I had no issues with learning basic Wiki markup. I remember the first time I wanted to add a link to another page — so I looked around on the editing screen for examples on how to do it. Every other piece of text that appears as a link in the article was surrounded by two square brackets on each side. Typing [[The Sixth Sense]] as shown here results in an interwiki link: The Sixth Sense. Then I wanted to figure out how to add a link to another article while making it so that the text was different from its title. Just by looking around, I learned that by typing [[The Sixth Sense|this]] as shown, with a line between the article's title on the left and the featured text on the right, it'll give me this (I only learned several years later that this technique is called "piping"). Are we to assume that the average person isn't competent enough to figure this out for themselves? Even if they just wanted to make a minor edit, like adding the word "sold" to a paragraph, all they have to do is click the "edit this page" button at the top of the article (or just the "edit" button at the top-right corner of the relevant section), scroll down, and type it in. It's not rocket science! And now that I think of it, having two separate options for altering the page actually strikes me as more intimidating to newcomers, because the "edit source" part gives the impression that there's a steep learning curve to picking up on Wiki markup, and that's simply not the case at all. So I think it should be an opt-in feature for registered accounts at most; I wouldn't lose any sleep if it were removed from the MediaWiki interface entirely. Kurtis ^(talk) 18:12, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
44. Opt-in: too much missing functionality.--ukexpat (talk) 18:30, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

    Hi ukexpat. I'm trying to understand your concerns regarding VisualEditor. Which functionality do you find missing? Can you please elaborate? It will help development efforts. :-) --MZMcBride (talk) 08:01, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

45. It's still beta, and there are a lot of known issues. If a new editor thinks that's the way editing will always be, it's likely to put them off, and they may not come back even once VE has reached release-ready performance and functionality. To address Jimbo's concern below, a new editor could be explicitly asked, at account creation, if they would like to use the beta editor as the default, with instructions on how to disable it and a warning that it's beta software and will have issues. That will give them the choice. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 19:12, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

    Hi Seraphimblade. I'm trying to understand your concerns with VisualEditor. As you may or may not be aware, each edit made with VisualEditor (VE) is tagged. According to a search of your edits, it looks like you currently have 0 VisualEditor edits. Can you please elaborate on your concerns? In particular, do you think it's reasonable to say that the wikitext (or source) editor might put off an untold number of potential editors as it's arguably very intimidating? --MZMcBride (talk) 08:00, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    MZMcBride: It is correct that I have not completed an edit with VE, because I was unable to. I did try it, but the slow performance made it essentially unusable. I don't disagree with the idea of having an assisted editor in principle, and in fact I think it's a great idea, as long as editors always have the option to directly edit the source. It's the current implementation that's the problem. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 15:21, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    Sorry, I realized I didn't fully answer your question. For the type of edits a new editor will likely be doing (typo fixes, adding a sentence, etc.), I don't think the wikitext editor is terribly intimidating at all. However, there are some people who see any type of code-looking markup and run away screaming. By all means, give them the option of using the beta visual editor, but make sure they know it's beta. That will have two benefits: They'll know what they're in for, they'll know an alternative is available, and know to expect bugs and problems and that reporting them is encouraged and appreciated. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 15:28, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

46. Opt-in. That way new users don't get turned off by a plugin/software that isn't fully functional and may have some serious bugs. —Jeremy v^_^v ^Bori! 19:33, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

    Hi Jéské Couriano. I'm trying to understand your concerns with VisualEditor. As you may or may not be aware, each edit made with VisualEditor (VE) is tagged. According to a search of your edits, it looks like you currently have 0 VisualEditor edits. Can you please elaborate on your concerns? --MZMcBride (talk) 08:10, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    My concerns come from interactions with new users who have used VE and come to #wikipedia-en-help on IRC, who had just as much problems using VE, bugs or no, as they did using the wikisource editor. I made this clear in the last RfC. How about, instead of you playing devil's advocate with ad hominem attacks on the integrity of everyone demanding opt-in, you actually look at this from the point of view of the new users who were effectively forced to use this buggy piece of software? Until then, you and I have naught to discuss. Got me? —Jeremy v^_^v ^Bori! 21:59, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

47. – Juliancolton | ^Talk 19:38, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

    Hi Juliancolton. I'm trying to understand your concerns with VisualEditor. As you may or may not be aware, each edit made with VisualEditor (VE) is tagged. According to a search of your edits, it looks like you currently have 0 VisualEditor edits. Can you please elaborate on your concerns? --MZMcBride (talk) 08:09, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

48. Opt-in in it's current state (unless you claim every user with an account is a beta-tester, which is nonsense of course, but the kind of nonsense WMF actually seems to believe in). --Patrick87 (talk) 19:54, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
49. Forcing beta onto newbies is simply destructive - it obviously goes diametrically against our editor-retention aim. Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 20:10, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
50. Opt-in until a stable and quick version is obtained.  Ronhjones  ^(Talk) 20:12, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
51. Opt-in. This shouldn't be forced on us anyone. Manxruler (talk) 21:10, 30 July 2013 (UTC) And by opt-in, I mean always opt-in, and not opt-in for a limited period. Manxruler (talk) 20:43, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    Hi Manxruler. It looks like you currently have about 33,000(!) edits here, of which 0 (or none) are VisualEditor edits. Can you please elaborate on why you feel VisualEditor is being forced on anyone when you're capable of continuing to use the wikitext (or source) editor and you've successfully avoided using VisualEditor altogether here so far? --MZMcBride (talk) 08:26, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    Hi MZMcBride. Yes, 33K+ edits. And not at any point, even when I first started more than eight years ago, was wikitext challenging to use, unlike VE. Yes, VE has had a negative impact on my editing, in that: 1. It took quite a while to get rid of that VE button labelled "edit", which was tiresome. 2. VE slowed things down for me, especially to begin with. I have a slow computer and a poor internet connection, which doesn't play well with VE, even when it's hid and just running in the background. 3. When I was recently offered the option to turn it off, it was also happily announced that "This option is recommended, as it will automatically give you a chance to try VisualEditor again when it's more developed and fully-featured." How lovely. No thanks. 4. I severely dislike having to make a regular effort to avoid VE. 5. Being "capable" of/allowed to edit with wikitext by jumping through various loops hoops isn't what I want, I want to be able to turn the VE thing off, and not be asked ever again. Period. And to not have made any edits with VE isn't the same thing as not having tried to use it. Manxruler (talk) 16:02, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    Further, I think that rather than spend time looking into the edit history of each of the individuals here, you should be looking into the complaints and wishes expressed. Manxruler (talk) 16:54, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    Hi again, MZMcBride. I just lost some more editing time, due to having to yet again disable VE, which I no doubt will have to do once again, as soon as VE is declared no longer beta. Manxruler (talk) 08:49, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

52. Opt-in. Given the NOWIKI issue, where the VE managers have now stated that a bug that is damaging multiple articles by the hour will not be fixed and it is to be left to editors to clear up the mess, this is now imperative. Black Kite (talk) 21:15, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
    • "The nowiki issue" is really several issues. The nowiki tag is used for escaping wikitext. We will always escape, rather than parse, wikitext that's entered into VisualEditor. We've already inserted a warning when this occurs to reduce accidental insertion of wikitext, and are open to other options. There are other contexts in which wikitext is sometimes escaped where we can do more to reduce over-escaping.--Eloquence* 22:09, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
      • That's not really the point Erik, and I think you know it. Regardless of how many articles the NOWIKI issue is breaking (and it is breaking articles on a regular basis, and you're requiring someone to clean up after it) the main issue is that code that is not functional is still being used. Frankly, Opt-In isn't the issue here; IMHO VE really needs to be turned off until it's not causing multiple errors and problems. Black Kite (talk) 02:13, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
53. This software simply isn't ready. I can't believe we are now having serious discussions about writing bots and scripts to clean up mess made by this that the developers have said they're not even going to try to fix. The WMF's own research shows the software is damaging editor recruitment and Kww has a point that new editors shouldn't be involuntarily used as software testers. Hut 8.5 21:33, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
54. Per all of the above. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:41, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

    Hi Tryptofish. I'm trying to understand your concerns with VisualEditor. As you may or may not be aware, each edit made with VisualEditor (VE) is tagged. According to a search of your edits, it looks like you currently have 0 VisualEditor edits. Can you please elaborate on your concerns? Unfortunately, "per all of the above" doesn't really explain to me what issues you're having with VisualEditor. :-) --MZMcBride (talk) 09:09, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    Thank you for your attention to my editing history (maybe I'll be notable soon). In fact, I did try VE numerous times, but I decided not to save any of my edits because I was concerned each time that I might end up doing something unhelpful. However, I did acquire a reasonable amount of experience with it, and I went to the VE feedback page with a list of specific issues in mind. When I got there, I observed that other users had already reported everything of which I was aware, and there were already open Bugzillas on each of them. As for opt-in, I believe that something that is still as buggy as this should be something that users can choose to use, as opposed to having to choose not to use it. The defense rests. --Tryptofish (talk) 14:27, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    That's fair enough. We'll leave Tryptofish as a red link for now. ;-)

    Thank you for expanding on your comments. It's comments such as yours that are giving me more clarity into editor frustration. The lack of a fast enough response to reported issues seems to be at the heart of many complaints (similar, in some ways, to the wiki principle "I didn't hear that"). Feeling as though feedback isn't being heard or isn't being acted upon quickly enough, especially in conjunction with the seemingly rigid deployment timeline, is going to create strife and anger. Thanks again for taking the time to flesh out your thoughts, Tryptofish. I appreciate it. --MZMcBride (talk) 14:37, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

55. Opt-in, with a notice to tell them that there is a new experimental VE available to test, directing those who are interested to a page listing pros, cons and expected problems, how to report bugs and linking to the user guide. (It is apparent from the number of new editors tripping Filter 550 that many of them have some prior experience of wiki markup, having edited as IPs). JohnCD (talk) 21:57, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
56. Of course beta software should be opt-in. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:57, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
57. Opt-In Let the newbies choose down the line, hopefully when it's out of beta. GenQuest ^{"Talk to Me"} 23:24, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
58. Opt-In Until community consensus that it is stable. TheOverflow (talk) 23:45, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
59. Opt-In though I rather see it removed completely as a failed project. Secret ^account 23:57, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

    Hi Secret. I'm trying to understand your concerns with VisualEditor. As you may or may not be aware, each edit made with VisualEditor (VE) is tagged. According to a search of your edits, it looks like you currently have 0 VisualEditor edits. Can you please elaborate on your concerns, in particular why you view VisualEditor as a failed experiment? --MZMcBride (talk) 08:23, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

60. (edit conflict)Opt-in - Unless we want this buggy beta to cause us to lose more new editors than we would gain without it! PantherLeapord (talk) 23:58, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
61. Opt-In (edit conflict) at least 6 months to re-evaluate. The study of 19,500 new usernames revealed that 41% of VE-enabled users (2 of 5!) did not save the edit, while most non-VE users did save (given option to quit the edit). VE has revealed a new interface format: WYSIWYG-WASTE ("Without Anyone Saving The Edit), because new users should be warned to Save changes, and those 41% who neglected to Save were likely thinking the words were typed on the screen to update the page (so, What is Save?). The July edit-activity stats should show a huge reduction in edits, due to 41% not saved by new usernames, even though perhaps nearly as many people were trying to edit. Turn off VE for new users to require Opt-in, for 6+ months. -Wikid77 (talk) 00:15, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
62. opt-in per basically everyone. Sailsbystars (talk) 00:42, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

    Hi Sailsbystars. I'm trying to understand your concerns with VisualEditor. As you may or may not be aware, each edit made with VisualEditor (VE) is tagged. According to a search of your edits, it looks like you currently have 0 VisualEditor edits. Can you please elaborate on your concerns? Unfortunately, "per basically everyone" doesn't really explain to me what issues you're having with VisualEditor. :-) --MZMcBride (talk) 08:31, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    HiMZMcBride, I actually participated in the testing back in January and found VE less than useless (so I didn't make the edits) because it couldn't handles refs at that point. I also dithered around in the new editor without saving changes because it didn't do what I wanted to do at that particular time. Heck, I even filed a polite feedback item. The new version is vastly improved since what I tried back in January but still not at a level that it should be used as default. Sailsbystars (talk) 16:55, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

63. Opt-in because new users should not have an incomplete, non-intuitive, and buggy interface as their default editing experience. postdlf (talk) 01:05, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
64. Definitely opt-in: the first comment pretty much said it all. Jsayre64 (talk) 01:42, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
65. This is too buggy to have otherwise. TCN7JM 02:23, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

    Hi TCN7JM. I'm trying to understand your concerns with VisualEditor. As you may or may not be aware, each edit made with VisualEditor (VE) is tagged. According to a search of your edits, it looks like you currently have 0 VisualEditor edits. Can you please elaborate on your concerns about VisualEditor being too buggy? --MZMcBride (talk) 08:39, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    I don't have to have used it personally (though I did try it for a little while before it was officially released, don't know whether or not I saved an edit) to know of the errors it has considering sources and its inability to do section edits, et cetera. TCN7JM 09:05, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    Hi TCN7JM. Thanks for getting back to me so quickly. :-) While earlier versions of VisualEditor did not support section-editing, the current version certainly does. Have you tried section-editing with VisualEditor? Does it work for you? If you could elaborate on what you mean by "errors... considering sources," that would also help with VisualEditor development. --MZMcBride (talk) 09:33, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    Well I mean, like, section edit buttons are there, but you can still edit the whole page after clicking it, which kind of defeats the purpose of a section edit, since editing the whole page might still cause the edit conflicts et cetera. As a courtesy note, I will say that it is 4:40 AM over here and I probably should get some kind of sleep, so I'll be unable to respond for a few hours. TCN7JM 09:41, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

66. Opt-in at this time, please. - Dank (push to talk) 02:23, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
67. Opt-in. My personal distaste for WYSIWYG editors aside, I stridently object to making something new and poorly tested the default choice. Most new editors will have no clue how to disable this, or even that an alternative exists. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 02:53, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
68. Strong Opt-in. I am a software developer and quality assurance analyst by trade. If a QA analyst were to let software as buggy as this slip past in this state, he'd be looking for a new project, if not employer. If a Project Manager were to suggest putting it in front of a client for anything other than milestone review (let alone acceptance testing), he'd be laughed out of the room. VE is simply not production ready.  Jim Reed (Talk)  03:05, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
69. Beta -> Opt-in. Mkdw^talk 03:36, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
70. Opt-in. Spencer^T♦C 04:12, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
71. Nothing in beta should be default. StringTheory11 (t • c) 04:52, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

    Hi StringTheory11. I'm having difficulty understanding your comment here. The current user interface provides a wikitext (or source) editor alongside VisualEditor, both in the tabs at the top of the page and with section-edit links. What do you consider to be the default if both options are being provided to users? I'm confused. --MZMcBride (talk) 09:12, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

72. Riggr Mortis (talk) 05:19, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

    Hi Riggr Mortis. I'm trying to understand your concerns with VisualEditor. As you may or may not be aware, each edit made with VisualEditor (VE) is tagged. It looks like you currently have one edit using VisualEditor. That edit looks perfectly fine to me. Can you please elaborate on your concerns with VisualEditor? --MZMcBride (talk) 09:22, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

73. Opt-in per Kww. —Bruce1ee^talk 05:34, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
74. Opt-in even though as an Opera user I haven't been able to actually try it... Dsergeant (talk) 06:09, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
75. Opt-in. Until VE is not in beta. LT90001 (talk) 07:32, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
76. Opt-in. Certainly. Insulam Simia (talk) 07:49, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
77. Opt-in. If and when the software is stable and well-developed, then we can reassess. Until then, it should not be the default. Modest Genius ^talk 09:54, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

    Hi Modest Genius. I'm trying to understand your concerns with VisualEditor. As you may or may not be aware, each edit made with VisualEditor (VE) is tagged. According to a search of your edits, it looks like you currently have 0 VisualEditor edits. Can you please elaborate on your concerns re: VisualEditor being stable and well-developed? --MZMcBride (talk) 08:46, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    What, are you trying to catch people out here? What relevance does my number of saved edits have? For what it's worth, I tried using it when it was first enabled, but had the following problems: a) it took forever to load and responded slowly to everything I tried to do, b) using the 'preview' button I realised that it was about to break other bits of wikitext (tables, nowiki tags etc.) c) I couldn't get it to sensibly use references d) I've seen a large proportion of edits using VE which have had to be reverted (mostly on my watchlist) e) there was no working opt-out, which itself shows the software wasn't fully developed. Once it became unavailable I opted out. Unless the software has substantially improved in the last couple of weeks (given its long gestation, that seems incredible), my concerns are still valid. Many people have raised a large number of legitimate concerns over VE, and hounding people who !voted for this proposal with a boilerplate reply does nothing to address them. Modest Genius ^talk 10:33, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    Hi Modest Genius. I'm not trying to catch anyone, I'm just trying to understand the pattern I'm seeing here. It's quite clear that many don't like VisualEditor. It's not nearly as clear why that is. Knowing the latter may help resolve the former. Your expanded comment gave me a better understanding of why you feel the way that you do (and likely why others feel the same way that you do). I'm not sure if you following m:Tech/News, but VisualEditor is in fact undergoing rapid development. It isn't the same software it was a month ago or even a week ago. Changes are being made daily and being pushed weekly (if not several times a week). In any case, thank you very much for taking the time to expand on your comments. --MZMcBride (talk) 14:42, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    Well then that work should have been done before the premature launch of untested software. Perhaps during - here's an idea - an opt-in beta testing phase. As it is the community has overwhelmingly turned against VE, and changing that is going to require a lot more than just saying it's being improved. The damage has been done. The best response by the WMF would be to disable VE completely, do some proper surveys of what does/doesn't work, fix the bugs, run an opt-in beta for a few months, then try again when it's working better (in say 3-6 months time). Modest Genius ^talk 16:55, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

78. Opt-in Armbrust ^{The Homunculus} 10:09, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

    Hi Armbrust. I'm trying to understand your concerns with VisualEditor. As you may or may not be aware, each edit made with VisualEditor (VE) is tagged. According to a search of your edits, it looks like you currently have 0 VisualEditor edits. Can you please elaborate on your concerns? --MZMcBride (talk) 08:48, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

79. Opt-in --Meno25 (talk) 10:42, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
80. --Eingangskontrolle (talk) 10:50, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
81. Opt-in Since it's known to be buggy, have it "Opt-in" for those that want to help debug it. New users, realistically, shouldn't be expected to look for bugs in Beta software as well as learn the Wikipedia itself.  KoshVorlon. We are all Kosh ...  11:12, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
82. Opt-in I support the idea, but let's make it work a little better, so we don't lose editors. Particularly the ones who are not entirely familiar with Wikipedia and beta testing. I have peers who dont realize the new editor is in Beta, so they gave up on editing megacephalic 12:15, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
83. Opt-in. VisualEditor is not yet in acceptable state to be the default editor. --Zundark (talk) 12:23, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
84. Definitely Opt-in per the above comments, VE is not at all ready for becoming the default editor yet. 2Flows (talk) 12:35, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
85. Opt-in. VE is full of bugs and not ready for prime-time, causing a lot of problems for others (i.e. the people who have to do the clean-up). Another (though probably not politically correct) reason for opt-in is that VE IMHO makes it too easy for new inexperienced editors to make big edits and large changes that they're not ready for yet. Thomas.W ^{talk to me} 12:40, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
86. Opt-in VE has many problems and a lot of time is required to fix them. The current interface might be a little boring but it much better than VE. ♛♚★Vaibhav Jain★♚♛ ^{Talk Email} 13:34, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
87. Opt-in - I'll pile on. Let me add that recently I started using STiki to revert vandalism, since I seemed to notice a lot of it on my watchlist. A large percentage of vandals use VE, I am finding. Maybe we should call it VV instead... Visual Vandalizer. Jusdafax 13:49, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
88. Opt-in. Frankly, the thing is way too buggy to be rolled out in the first place.  Yintan  14:17, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

    Hi Yintan. I'm trying to understand your concerns with VisualEditor. As you may or may not be aware, each edit made with VisualEditor (VE) is tagged. According to a search of your edits, it looks like you currently have 0 VisualEditor edits. Can you please elaborate on your concerns, particularly what you find to be buggy with VisualEditor? Any insights you have will be valuable to further development of VisualEditor. :-) --MZMcBride (talk) 08:51, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    I've used VE as an IP, experienced it, and read the many, many bug reports. Can you simply accept my opinion without checking my edit count? Thanks.  Yintan  09:22, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    Hi Yintan. It's important in a discussion such as this to understand why people don't like VisualEditor. Actionable feedback helps improve the software. Simply saying the software is "buggy" doesn't give developers or others an idea of what to work on or fix. If you can provide any edits that were hurt by VisualEditor (as an IP or otherwise), that would be great. Thanks for getting back to me so quickly, I appreciate it. --MZMcBride (talk) 09:35, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    If you need "an idea of what to work on or fix" I suggest you check Bugzilla. But I assume you're already a regular there, so I fail to see the point of your question. You want me to list all VE's problems with tables here, for example? Elaborate on the <nowiki> problems? Or how cut-and-paste doesn't work properly? Or how references can vanish? In short, tell you everything you already know? No, thanks.  Yintan  10:00, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    By the way, I don't like your comment that this RFC "does not seem to be particularly constructive"[4]. I'd say you got plenty of feedback here. Detailed, too.  Yintan  10:46, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    Hi Yintan. I'm one of the most active users in Wikimedia's Bugzilla installation. I've been actively following VisualEditor's development for a few months now and I'm certainly aware of the large number of bugs I've personally hit and the even larger number (mountain, really) of bugs that other users have hit. I'm trying to figure out how to make VisualEditor more tolerable, both in the short-term and in the long-term, so that its development can continue without a community revolt. (There have been serious suggestions of forking the project over this, which I think would be incredibly damaging to Wikimedia.)

    I believe that VisualEditor is the future, but that can't be true in a vacuum. Knowing why you or anyone else has decided to not use VisualEditor or to avoid using it is invaluable in figuring out ways to either make VisualEditor better or find ways to make it easier to hide (e.g., a much more prominent on/off switch).

    Some of the comments here I have indeed found less-than-helpful, as there's an active group of hard-working VisualEditor developers who are trying to look through a sea of noise and find signal and parts of this discussion make that really difficult. Actionable items such as "when I tried VisualEditor, it broke my edit in this way" are objectively more useful than simply saying "let's turn it off or make it opt-in again because it's buggy." We all know it's buggy—and at times deeply frustrating—but it can't improve without developers being able to figure out how to make it better, particularly by seeing which problems are being hit most frequently. Thank you for taking the time to expand on your comments. They added a bit of clarity to the underlying frustration that I'm seeing here and for that I'm grateful. --MZMcBride (talk) 14:27, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    I don't doubt there are a lot of hard-working VE developers and I'm sure that some of the comments here are frustrating, but basically a lot of people appear to say "You've already got a massive To-Do list, fix that first before making it the default". A fair and very sensible point, IMHO. VE is a tool that isn't up to the job yet. From what I see on my RC patrols it appears to break as much as it's fixing. Limiting VE to dedicated users and beta testers makes perfect sense to me, rolling out an unfinished product to the entire wiki community doesn't. Regards,  Yintan  14:47, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    That is the second time I've seen the edit count remark. Well, my edit count is likely zeero, but that does not mean I have not spent hours trying to edit with the stupid thing before giving up and using the plain editor. I've not saved any VE edits, but only because I have no idea what the result will look like.--Robert EA Harvey (talk) 05:57, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

89. Opt-in because it's not ready for primetime (YET). Experienced editors (at least myself) greatly prefer to simply edit source rather than use a laggy WYSIWYG tool. CaseyPenk (talk) 15:02, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
90. Opt-in. I am utterly astonished that this is even being asked, given the experience the community has had with this not-yet-ready-for-prime-time interface. I have tried VE on several occasions, both on my main account and a new one, and neither way has it been worth while; in fact, i'm not certain i've actually managed to save any worth-while edits with it, and if i, relatively experienced and motivated, can't, why would a new editor, with less or no experience and motivation, bother to try? Cheers, Lindsay^Hello 15:13, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
91. Opt-in - it's a beta product, not suitable for general release just yet. Keep it opt-in for those who wish to help beta test but don't force it on unknowing editors Cabe6403 ^{(Talk•Sign)} 15:58, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

    Hi Cabe6403. It looks like you currently have about 7500 edits here, of which 0 (or none) are VisualEditor edits. Can you please elaborate on why you feel VisualEditor is being forced on anyone when you're capable of continuing to use the wikitext (or source) editor and you've successfully avoided using VisualEditor altogether here so far? --MZMcBride (talk) 08:53, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

92. Opt-in. Too many problems with the beta.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:04, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

    Hi Bbb23. I'm trying to understand your concerns with VisualEditor. As you may or may not be aware, each edit made with VisualEditor (VE) is tagged. According to a search of your edits, it looks like you currently have 0 VisualEditor edits. Can you please elaborate on your concerns, particularly what you mean by "too many problems with the beta"? --MZMcBride (talk) 09:24, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

93. Opt-in. There's a decision to be made about whether I'll spend my volunteering time beta-testing the software or editing the encyclopaedia. Since I'm the volunteer, I should be the one that makes that decision. The "opt-out" model of the initial rollback was cheeky because it was an example of the WMF trying to manage how my volunteering time would be spent. I'd like to be treated with more respect in future please.—S Marshall T/C 16:53, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

    Hi S Marshall. It looks like you currently have over 18,700 edits here, of which 0 (or none) are VisualEditor edits. Can you please elaborate on why you feel anyone is trying to make a decision about whether you should be a VisualEditor beta-tester when you're capable of continuing to use the wikitext (or source) editor and you've successfully avoided using VisualEditor altogether here so far? --MZMcBride (talk) 09:06, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    Well, Mz, I'm one of the people who somehow managed to miss all of the notifications telling me that the Visual Editor was going to be enabled, so it came as a complete shock to me back when it was first switched on. I'm really not in the target demographic for the Visual Editor----I'm a Linux user. Therefore I'm obviously a speed-obsessed control freak with a gigantic beard who's accustomed to all computer-related changes no matter how small requiring my personal permission and password, and I'm obviously comfortable with text terminals... Anyway, when I logged in and found they'd changed things and slowed down the interface, I didn't try to edit. I immediately focused on working out how to turn it off. This was less than easy because at this point nobody had produced a shut-off guide, and there was a discussion taking place about how prominent the shut-off guide should be (with WMF employees openly advocating making it less obvious so that more people would try the editor).

    In short, the reason why I've avoided using the VisualEditor is because I've put effort and research into avoiding it. Which, I don't mind telling you, has put my back up and made me disinclined to co-operate.—S Marshall T/C 10:48, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    Hi S Marshall. Thank you very much for expanding on your views. I completely agree that it was a mistake for the VisualEditor team to remove the user preference that completely disables VisualEditor and I'm very glad that it's been restored. Though even today it's currently being marked as a temporary user preference, which is really unfortunate. I hope that this mistake on the VisualEditor team's part does not end up being a fatal mistake, but the frustration that you and many others are expressing makes me worry, of course. I recognize that a certain set of users will always want to use wikitext/source editing (I'm likely among them, to be honest). I think finding a way to demonstrate clearly and forcefully that this user preference to completely disable VisualEditor is a non-negotiable would go a long way toward resolving editor tension and building trust between the VisualEditor team and active editors here. --MZMcBride (talk) 14:32, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

    I don't think we can allow it to be a fatal mistake. I think we're either going to have to make the wiki software easier to use or face up to the consequences of declining editor numbers. The visual editor, when fixed, is clearly the best of a bad set of alternatives. My point is that it has to be introduced in a respectful way without alienating existing users any further, in other words, each user needs to be asked before the editor's turned on for them.—S Marshall T/C 16:22, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

94. Opt-in. people want to get on with editing not beta-testing. Those that have spare time on their hands can opt-in. Agathoclea (talk) 16:55, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
95. Opt-in. I have seen several bugs here and there, and it is not at the moment, ready for new editors. Prabash.Akmeemana 18:20, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
96. Opt-in. I didn't have to spend very long trying out VE before I got frustrated, and I kind of have a clue what I'm doing. On the other hand, when I first came to WP years ago I thought that learning the basics of wiki markup was amazingly easy. I agree with those above who believe that VE is nowhere near ready for prime time, it really shouldn't even be considered a beta. There are hopefully enough people willing to sacrifice their time to testing this thing, but until it actually works, neither new users or average everyday editors should have deal with it. -Wine Guy~Talk 18:59, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
97. Opt-in: VE's user experience looks to have been designed by programmers for programmers rather than for the general population. Clicking on various places on a page shows mysterious shade changes and little jigsaws, then brings up dialogues blathering about "transclusion" and "parameters"; is this really something fit for a new user's first experience? Wikitext is clear by comparison, which was after all its original virtue. (Incidentally, try putting Jacques Lacan into VisualEditor - even more obscure than the man's works.) AllyD (talk) 19:20, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
98. YE ^{Pacific Hurricane}
99. Opt-in: Don't give new editors a buggy, unpleasant experience. Reify-tech (talk) 19:49, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
100. Opt-in. I too find the Visual Editor too slow to be useful. Axl ¤ [Talk] 20:24, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
101. Opt-in but with a visible pointer to the VE which is clearly described/marked as a beta version--Kmhkmh (talk) 20:26, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
102. Opt-in--Jezebel'sPonyo^{bons mots} 21:05, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
103. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 21:34, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
104. Opt-in United States Man (talk) 21:39, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
105. Opt-in The software is not production ready and the arguments behind its premature roll-out do not live up to empirical scrutiny. It is beyond my comprehension why this is being pushed upon user in a live environment when the extension itself is marked as experimental and comes with a warning to "[use] this at your own risk; it ... is not generally ready for real-world applications". --RA (✍) 22:14, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
106. Opt-in: It may be working better now, but not sure it should become the most prevalent editing option on Wikipedia. If any faults develop, or they take its early track record at face value, it might put new users off. --ProtoDrake (talk) 22:24, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
107. Opt-in which is how it should have been done in the first place instead of having the stupid thing imposed on editors. VE is permanently turned off for this editor....William 22:31, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
108. Opt-in: I'm sick of fixing good faith edits screwed up by the VisualEditor. Ginsuloft (talk) 22:28, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
109. Obviously Joefromrandb (talk) 22:30, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
110. Opt-in- Launching a buggy, poorly-tested editor was a bad idea. Imposing it on new editors would be a worse one. Reyk _YO! 22:30, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
111. I'd prefer it was removed and brought back for beta testing when its ready for testing. But yes it needs to be opt in - with a warning that it is slow and buggy. ϢereSpielChequers 22:32, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
112. Opt-in. New users join up to edit articles, not to screw around with new software.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 22:32, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
113. No one likes this thing do they? I can't stand it. Haven't read anything but hatred towards it. Went to my preferences to turn it off so I didn't keep accidentally hitting the wrong edit tab and having to exit out of it. The first step should be to find if anyone actually wants it, and if so then after you get it working right, you can let people decided if they want to try it or not. You shouldn't force everyone to use something that most/all won't want. Dream Focus 22:36, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
114. This thing sucks on ice. I'd prefer getting rid of it altogether, but the WMF devlopers would whine about that and/or try to sneak it back in the back door. We can at least focus on shoving it in the background wherever we can. I haven't contributed to Wikia in ages because it uses some wacko javascript editor that won't run in my browser. I had minimal contributions there so it didn't matter much, but I'd miss proper Wikipedia and I'm not sure it could do without me. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 22:43, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
115. Opt-in. Its terrible. Its so unuser friendly and down right confusing. Near impossible to edit with it. It glitches, it causes the website to load slow. --Rushton2010 (talk) 22:44, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
116. Opt in. I shudder to think how much money has been poured down the VE pit when we can't get access to databases for our content contributors.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:48, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
117. Opt in. Its doesn't look finished to me. --Marianian^(talk) 22:50, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
118. Opt-in. Not fully baked yet. -- Mufka ^{(u) (t) (c)} 22:53, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
119. Opt-in at the moment. --Stryn (talk) 22:56, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
120. Opt-in until it can better handle references Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 22:58, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
121. Opt-in until the major bugs have been sorted out and we are at a stable build. Even Twinkle is opt-in. Though I realize this is a component of Wikipedia that is meant for everyone, it shouldn't be rolled out if one doesn't want it. Now, when it hits a stable level, I'll change my position, but for now, I think that it would harm editor retention. --Jackson Peebles (talk) 22:59, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
122. Opt-in when it is beta and maybe longer. QED237 (talk) 23:01, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
123. Opt-in for obvious reasons that have already been stated a few dozen times. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 23:03, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
124. Opt-in visual editor is frustrating and difficult to use.--William S. Saturn (talk) 23:04, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
125. Opt-in I think someone else said this, but I personally think that only experienced editors (that actually want to) should be testing beta software. ALH (talk) 23:04, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
126. Opt-in, as the software is still in beta. Beta software should be always have to be enabled by choice and not be the default for editors, since the software is not yet stable. Lugia2453 (talk) 23:06, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
127. Opt-in indefinitely, even when it comes out of beta. --Zcbeaton (talk) 23:07, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
128. Opt-in Poorly planned and poorly implemented. This should have been tested out thoroughly first especially on the Wiki with the most traffic. Elockid ^(Talk) 23:08, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
129. Opt-in I've been with Wikipedia for a long time, and when I first used the new editor, I was very frustrated by its slow speed. New users are more likely to make minor edits, for which the plain-text editor is much faster and just as easy to use. --Bowlhover (talk) 23:08, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
130. Opt-in I originally didn't want to use VE, because I had heard how slow it is. If they are fine with slow times, then they can Opt-in. If they don't, they don't have to do anything. buffbills7701 23:09, 31 July 2013 (UTC)\
131. Every software should be opt-in. —$\mathrm {ITAC}$ $\mathrm {aaaaaaaayyy}$ 23:10, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

     Huh? Should people be able to opt out of the spam blacklist? Of the account-creation throttle? Of the abuse filter? I'm just saying... it's one thing to support disabling the VE, but you're making far too vast a generalization. — PinkAmpers&^{(Je vous invite à me parler)} 00:25, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

132. Opt-in,I think KWW the very first vote for opt in pretty much said the critical thing. That is the way you do a beta test. Its very unusual for a beta test to be the default for anyone let alone new users. MadScientistX11 (talk) 23:11, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
133. Opt-in It appears that a very good idea has been very badly handled. Opt-in ensures that editors who are not so confident about editing are saved from broken or fractured programming doktorb _words^deeds 23:14, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
134. Opt-in  This editor is only an option for a subset of users; so design-wise, it is better to default to a common starting point for everyone.  Unscintillating (talk) 23:16, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
135. As stated above, VE is buggy and not ready for prime time. New editors would likely become frustrated and stop editing, because they wouldn't know how to opt-out of VE. SMP0328. (talk) 23:19, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
136. Opt-in. Here's how this should have been done (even if it was much better tested and had less limitations), and how I would support it remaining in the interface as opt-out: VE is made the second option after wikitext editing (with always an option of making it the default in the future); regular editing is not utterly marginalized by the deceptive label "edit source", in combination with VW being just "Edit", so that even some old hand users think VE is the only option and wikitext editing is gone, and some kind of note is floated above the two saying something about the new two-option editing system, maybe providing a link to an explanation page.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 23:23, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
137. Opt-in Take it away and fix it. When it is fixed, ask who wants it. Bielle (talk) 23:21, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
138. Opt-in, but VE should somehow be advertised to new/anonymous users. BlueRidiculous (talk) 23:24, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
139. Per the numerous testimony that it being enabled by default is causing more harm than good. --ThaddeusB (talk) 23:25, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
140. Opt-in - The VisualEditor is awful to begin with. I shudder to think about new members simply avoiding learning Wikicode and thus lacking a proper understanding of how all the formatting and mechanisms work. If people don't gradually learn about all the features of MediaWiki, they're bound to come up with suboptimal ways of doing things especially as regards templates and such.--Newbiepedian (Hailing Frequencies) 23:24, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
141. Opt-in. A good idea, but it isn't ready.— James Estevez (talk) 23:28, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
142. Opt-in. Code that is not RFP should not be on by default. — xaosflux ^Talk 23:38, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
143. Opt-in, of course. Everyking (talk) 23:42, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
144. Opt-in I decided to go from an IP account to a registered account in order to change the preferences so I don't see the Visual Editor. I kept hitting "Edit" by mistake (hundreds of times) instead of "Edit Source". If you have done ANY editing on Wikipedia and used mark-up language, Visual Editor is confusing. I still don't know what I can do besides edit text. I never figured how to wikify or create links. I'm not sure whether the VE backlash is so bad because VE has a bad user interface or because it just appeared one day and the community didn't get to choose. Newjerseyliz (talk) 23:43, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
145. Opt-in until VE improves. Unfortunately, the current opt-out structure means that new and anonymous users are essentially beta-testing something that experienced users know to avoid. Opt-out should be the eventual goal, but VisualEditor isn't there yet. Until VE is as fast and intuitive as making a comment on Facebook, it should not be the default. Andrew³²⁷ 23:45, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
146. Per Andrew in its current form VE is just as difficult to use as wikicode but for different reasons. If VE was improved I !vote otherwise but as per Andre above until VE is signiicantly improve Opting In is the best solution--Cailil ^talk 23:48, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
147. Opt-in. It works fairly well, but the bugs still need to be worked out, in my humble opinion. Michael Barera (talk) 23:48, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
148. Opt-in I think I've gotten VisualEditor to work properly twice? pbp 23:49, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
149. Opt-in. The stated purpose of Visual Editor is to encourage editor retention. But the reason editors leave the project isn't because they find the editing to be too difficult. By orders of magnitude, the issue is with social aspects of Wikipedia. Visual Editor is a technical solution to the wrong problem. I predict that, contrary to the aims of the WMF, it will not encourage more quality editors to stay with the project. Instead it will result in a net negative effect: a greater share of the contributions to the project will be poor, incoherent, or outright vandalism. Sławomir Biały (talk) 23:51, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
150. Alfie↑↓© 23:53, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
151. Strong opt-in. I second #90 AllyD, #133 Newbiepedian, and #83 LindsayH , just to name a few. Get it
     1. working reliably
     2. easy to use
     3. with good clear documentation
     4. that doesn't assume the newcomer knows almost as much as the old-timer does.

     Then, and only then, we can talk about opt-out. Until then, provide it as an option with clear warnings that it's in betatest, including what "betatest" means (see my #4) and may be is guaranteed to be unstable. --Thnidu (talk) 23:55, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

152. Opt-in VE is still in beta mode, and needs to be tested by users with experience. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 23:56, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
153. Opt-in, Informed consent. Jagnor (talk) 23:58, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
154. Beta software is always opt-in. Regardless if its "released" or not. Jguy _Talk^Done 00:01, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
155. Although its a huge step forward and to be welcomed, its still (approx -ve) beta. As somebody who spend a lot of time c/eing their own edits, I can see how when its developed further, it's going to be of huge benifit. I hope the developers are not too discouraged by all this fuss re the too early release; VE's time will come and the work will be appreciated. Ceoil (talk) 00:06, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
156. Opt-in, doesn't make editing easier. Pelmeen10 (talk) 00:10, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
157. Opt-in: Visual Editor is an awesome idea, and should have been started years sooner. But apparently it wasn't. This software is currently not suitable even for Beta release; this is still alpha software. If it's so slow that even experienced users with a persistent desire to fix things get frustrated waiting for it, it seems to reason that the very group it targets, new editors, would be turned off in droves.Eaglizard (talk) 00:14, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
158. Opt-in at least until fully developed, per Thnidu. --ELEKHH^T 00:17, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
159. A beta program should never be a default. --Holdek (talk) 00:19, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
160. Opt-in I've actively used the Visual Editor on both Wikipedia and my private wiki for the past few weeks, and while showing promise and being occasionally useful, it is currently too buggy to be usable by inexperienced editors. Major problems I've encountered include failure to properly render complex articles in edit-mode, semi-silent refusal so save edits after a medium-sized edit session, various corruptions of the wikitext on save (actual corruptions affecting the article, not merely cosmetic issues), and sluggishness when editing large and complex articles (even on very high-end hardware). I have no objection to changing this to an opt-out feature once the software is sufficiently stable. —Ruud 00:23, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

     Indeed several people have tried making larger VE edits, unable to Save, losing all keystrokes, wasting their time. -Wikid77 16:14, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

161. Opt-in the current software is just not advanced enough. It doesn't work well with templates, which makes using the referencing templates difficult. It also takes a little time to get used to, whereas anyone who has edited Wikipedia in the last 12 and a half years (a large number of people) will be familiar with editing the source. -teb00007 ^{Talk • Contributions} 00:25, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
162. Opt In. Because it doesn't work with small monitors. And don't don't tell me about changing the resolution. No person who isn't a geek (or at least a power user) is going to that, nor should anyone, geek or not, have to do that just to edit Wikipedia. Icedog (talk) 00:26, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
163. Opt-in until it's out of beta. Corn cheese (talk) 00:28, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

     Beta software should always be opt-in. Not all editors want to test new code. Even very experienced editors like myself with 117,000 edits, may find the Beta software tricky and often stay mostly with the current software editing. Indent duplicate, unsigned vote. Command and Conquer Expert! ^{speak to me...}_{review me...} 01:07, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

164. Beta software should always be opt-in. Not all editors want to test new code. Even very experienced editors like myself with 117,000 edits, may find the Beta software tricky and often stay mostly with the current software editing. --DThomsen8 (talk) 00:31, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
165. Opt-in. We want new editors to learn how to edit Wikipedia with a stable platform under their feet, and not have to deal with interface irregularities on top of learning policies and community norms. The Visual Editor is not ready for prime-time yet, and presenting new accounts with VE by default presents them with a bad first impression. —Scott5114↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 00:33, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
166. Opt-in --AmaryllisGardener (talk) 00:38, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
167. Opt-in unless you rewrite it to be completely server-side. The VE cannot be made fast enough by fixing the existing bugs. Giant monstrosities of Javascript are inherently slow. Connor Behan (talk) 00:45, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
168. Opt-in, please. Let the user choose. Cwobeel (talk) 00:46, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
169. Opt in Tintin
170. Opt inElectroPro (talk) 00:53, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
171. Opt in, When I tried VE, it was slow, confusing, and crashed my UP TO DATE browser running on an UP TO DATE operating system. No thank you, I want to be able to edit Wikipedia, not test crappy beta software that makes editing next to impossible. I can't imagine how many new users would be scared off by forcing them to use this. I've been using the standard Wikipedia editing interface for quite a few years and it is what I am used to. Command and Conquer Expert! ^{speak to me...}_{review me...} 00:58, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
172. Opt-in, there is no reason to foist a buggy beta on everyone. Dagko (talk) 01:00, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
173. Opt in -- Isn't it too obvious? ViswaPrabhaവിശ്വപ്രഭ^talk 01:13, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
174. It's just too problematic at this point to use as the default. LadyofShalott 01:20, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
175. Opt-in Learning curves are good. μηδείς (talk) 01:27, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
176. Opt-in – Let's not rush into this just yet – wait until all hiccups have been ironed out. —MelbourneStar☆^talk 01:35, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
177. Opt-in It's a mess, to say the least. --Geniac (talk) 01:37, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
178. Opt-in Per all above. DecafGrub47393 (talk) 01:38, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
179. Opt-in - It is beta, it's annoying. Also per all above. Thegreyanomaly (talk) 01:40, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
180. Apteva (talk) 01:44, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
181. Opt-in It was ridiculous to have not done this from the beginning with buggy beta software, but no time like the present to fix it. However (a) it should not be located under "Gadgets" (very user-unfriendly jargon apparently copied from Google) but under "Editing" (and possibly also the main page) in the user preferences and (b) it should be prominently explained and offered during sign-up. You could go as far as keeping an "VE" tab (do NOT replace the "edit" tab), but I'd only suggest doing that after the code is less cumbersome and buggy.
     
     As I've noted elsewhere, this entire project was wrong-headed: you added this to encourage new editors, but the problem is not difficulty or disinterest in Wikicode but aggressive page-owners; nooB-biters; and non-obvious templates. The VE is irrelevant to any of that & giving new users a buggy experience on top of everything else isn't going to help your cause. — LlywelynII 01:49, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
182. Opt-in I would not have been able to become an editor if VE was being used when I joined WP in 2006. I am elderly with little computer experience and I learned how to edit by looking at the way that others managed to do it. In fact, that's still how I do it. Gandydancer (talk) 01:51, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
183. Opt-in like any buggy, slow test version aiming at replacing stable, fast software. Love the idea, though. hgilbert (talk) 01:56, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
184. opt in, definitely, always for betasNickholbrook (talk) 01:52, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
185. Opt-in Is the logical setting with a beta version.--Mariordo (talk)
186. Opt-in. Definitely Girona7 (talk) 02:06, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
187. Opt-in - I'm a little conflicted...I'm not sure I would have discovered the VE for a while if it had not been auto-enabled for me. It's great but the increased potential for vandalism and/or accidental edits concerns me... Perhaps if it were opt-in, but when a user attempts to edit a page, there's a big info box informing them about this cool new VE that's in beta that they can try? Seems like a decent compromise to me... Jaardon (talk) 02:10, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
188. It's not ready for the public. -- ^t numbermaniac ^c 02:15, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
189. Opt-in always for new code. Malke 2010 (talk) 02:18, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
190. Opt-in, until it is out of beta. ★Saurabh P.  |  ☎ talk 02:23, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
191. Opt-in! Let the new users learn and adjust to it until they learn. RafaelPPascual (talk) 02:27, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
192. Opt-in I wondered what it was when I first saw it, and couldn't figure it out. I just go edit source and keep working. A new editor likely won't understand it without some tutorial first, which kind of defeats the purpose. Oaktree b (talk) 02:31, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
193. Opt-in. I will switch my vote the first time that an opt-out voter creates a single policy-compliant biography of a living person using only the Visual Editor. --j⚛e decker^talk 02:33, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

     This smells like a fun challenge... Legoktm (talk) 20:21, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

     Enjoy! Somewhere back in the archives on the Feedback page I include the 78-step process of adding a single reference. --j⚛e decker^talk 15:43, 2 August 2013 (UTC) (Added: Wikipedia:VisualEditor/Feedback/Archive_2013_07#Reference_Issues:_Omnibus_Edition here ya go. --j⚛e decker^talk 15:46, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

194. Opt-in always for beta code. The new editor simply isn't ready for prime-time use. Signalizing (talk) 02:42, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
195. Opt-in This is not ready for wide release. I regularly train new Wikipedians and features of the Visual Editor are not instinctive for new users to use. Besides being difficult to use, the Visual Editor runs slowly and does not have reference features which I would expect it to have. I regret that it was rolled out in Beta version and I question why this was even done. I also do not find it convenient for me to use as an experienced editor. Blue Rasberry (talk) 02:46, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
196. Opt-in during beta. i agree with what Bluerasberry said above. Neurosciency (talk) 02:55, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
197. Opt-in No one should ever have to opt-out of something like this...even after beta. Personally, from what I've seen of it, I think VE is a colossal waste of time. Seriously, this is what my donation goes to?--ColonelHenry (talk) 02:57, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

     I think many people wanted an "InstantEditor" not just Visual, to type "[[xx]]" and instantly see "xx" on the screen, but that simplicity was not understood and was rejected by developers as "invalid" input (error! error!). -Wikid77 16:14, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

198. Opt–in until it is fully developed. AutomaticStrikeout  ?  03:01, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
199. Opt–in - Beta software should NEVER be the default. Rock4arolla (talk) 03:23, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
200. Opt-in. Though I would like to see easier editing for newbies, IP vandals should be discouraged by still making them have to edit the source manually. Longbyte1 (talk) 03:26, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

     Vandalism formerly focused on the top paragraph, as the first text in the wikitext edit-buffer, but now they can click-and-move images anywhere as if "improving" the entire page layout. -Wikid77 16:14, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

201. Opt–in - Beta software should NEVER be the default. Rock4arolla (talk) 03:27, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
202. Opt-in--MichaelMaggs (talk) 03:30, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
203. Opt-in – The Visual Editor is only functional on a few browsers, and even then almost no earlier versions are supported. That is just unfair to people with older broswers who are expecting it to work! In addition, the whole point of the Visual Editor is to attract people with little to no knowledge of technology. And the little old guy who is still using Windows 4 is in that targeted demographic of people we still need to draw to the site, but he'll just get frustrated when it doesn't even load. My proposal is that we add a box of text just above the edit box of an new/unconfirmed user that directly points them to the associated Preferences section, but also informs them that it is still experimental (avoiding scaring them off with the word 'beta' is important). The box would appear until they were autoconfirmed, and by then they should be able to find it by themselves. Thanks, Nick1372 (talk) 03:57, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
204. Opt-in per User:Adjwilley. Chris Troutman (talk) 04:02, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
205. I agree with Kww: Beta software should always be opt-in. — Pseudonymous Rex (talk) 05:01, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
206. Jclemens (talk) 05:59, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
207. Opt-in Its useful for correcting things like minor typos, but difficult to use for making articles from scratch, with tables and references etc.Apwoolrich (talk) 06:42, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
208. Opt-in Beta software should always be opt-in. Leujohn ^{(talk, stalk me?)} 07:07, 1 August 2013 (UTC)+
209. Opt-in Tried it, disabled it. Even were it bug-free I think it will encourage vandals and careless editors. Dave.Dunford (talk) 09:50, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

     Indeed VE has been used for hack edits, and another danger is hiding the template structures where new editors do not see how articles follow special styles, or hiding internal warnings: "<!--do not change this date; see talk-page-->". When I first edited WP pages, I wanted to rewrite them for my style until I realized thousands of pages followed wp:MOS styles. VE encourages rampant rewrites by new editors, with no warnings, just inviting trouble, but we did not forsee that massive problem. Instead of VE, we need a smart text editor, not a visual editor, but a wp:talking text editor. -Wikid77 11:37, 1 August, 16:33, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

210. Opt-in with a big, red warning that it is beta software and that it can make garbled edits. -- cyclopia^speak! 10:27, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
211. Opt-in, at the very least during the beta period. Excirial ^{(Contact me,Contribs)} 11:47, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
212. Faizan 13:57, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
213. Opt-in For now anyway. Too many bugs, plain and simple. — MusikAnimal ^talk 14:49, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
214. Opt-in Redalert2fan (talk) 14:51, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
215. Opt-in, if not disabled entirely and tested on a smaller site. It just doesn't work properly. Macktheknifeau (talk) 14:51, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
216. Opt-in. There's no way that this software should be enabled by default. — Richard BB 14:55, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
217. "Opt-in" until it is out of Beta. -- Safety Cap (talk) 14:57, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
218. Opt-in forever. The visual editor has numerous inherent flaws that make it unsuitable for the default view; it hides both comments and the underlying structure of the page. When dealing with smaller "easy" edits it has no advantage over editing plain text, and as soon as complicated formatting is introduced the visual editor becomes hopelessly complex -- its buttons and options are no more intuitive than the code is. It's also impossible to easily see how something was done by viewing its source, making it much much harder for new users to learn how something was done (that is, you can't tell which buttons on the visual editor you need to push to produce something by looking at how it was done elsewhere!) Users who learn how to edit Wikipedia via the visual editor are setting themselves up for long-term frustration that can only ultimately decrease editor retention, so it's important to never make the visual editor the default. --Aquillion (talk) 15:04, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
219. Opt- in until it is out of Beta. And it must stay in Beta until it is significantly more useable. nancy 15:06, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
220. Opt-in-Reasons: beta version, slow, difficulty in editing tables.
221. Opt-in. --Jasca Ducato (talk) 15:08, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
222. Opt-in Visual Editor makes it too easy for vandalism. Njaohnt (talk) 15:10, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
223. Opt-in -beta version, too slow, difficulty in editing tables R!j!n (talk) 15:17, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
224. Opt-in - shouldn't default to using a beta version of something, when a stable version exists. davidprior ^t/_c 15:18, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
225. Opt-in- It is still quite "wonky"; it could end disastrously for those who don't know how to use it. Perhaps later down the road, but certainly not now. It is not difficult to become autoconfirmed. UncappingCone64 (talk) 15:27, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
226. Opt-in while the software is in development and until it's much more stable and usable. ElKevbo (talk) 15:25, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
227. Opt-in while the software is in development and until it's much more stable and usable.Jytdog (talk) 15:45, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
228. Opt-in to avoid vandalism, both intentional and unintentional. It is very pleasant to use though, especially for small edits like grammatical error.--Rochelimit (talk) 15:46, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
229. Opt-in - right now not stable enough --TheMostAmazingTechnik (talk) 16:17, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
230. Opt-in, definitely. Users Seraphimblade, Manxruler, LlywelynII and many others have said it very well. Blue Elf (talk) 16:20, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
231. Salvio ^{Let's talk about it!} 16:31, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
232. Opt-in, needs more work. —Locke Cole • t • c 16:37, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
233. Opt-in Wikipedia is fundamentally a text culture. That's what makes the collaboration model possible. I don't think it's the markup syntax that puts new users off. I think it's disorientation within the hailstorm of unfamiliar symbols. What the visual editor offers is better orientation. You can see the pictures and breaks. You know where you are. Great. Having achieved that, edits are best made directly on the underlying syntax, but we don't need to force the issue. I would have gone more in the direction of Mylyn's task filter from Eclipse. The user could use the visual editor to select the scope of what they wish to edit, then switch to the underlying text representation with the undesired scope in dim letters, and which resists accidental modification. I'm generally opposed to default opt-in to a derivative culture. (It won't cease to be derivative until diff/merge/conflict resolution are equally visual.) Another way to do this would to be have two buttons: revise as well as edit. Revise could go by default to the visual editor, and commend itself for small changes. Edit would remain as always. Or the first time a new user clicks "edit" they could be prompted on whether they would prefer to make "revise" the default instead. There are many ways to skin this cat. I've used a personal wiki for all my own projects since about 1.6, logging ten of thousands of total edits. When I go to add a citation to an article on Wikipedia, I still suffer a moment of disorientation. The markup is so dense in places. The Mylyn trick would work a treat for me (preselect the ROI from a visual presentation and then have the edit box render regions to edit in bold and non-bold for semi protected, to override if you insist). In my view, this would have been a better compromise between aiding newcomers without shifting people into a derivative culture. — MaxEnt 16:54, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
235. Opt-in, it's still in beta, people may have become used to editing source only on other wikis, and it's confusing to see two different "edit" options. JIP | Talk 16:38, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
236. Opt-in. It is still in beta, first of all. Second of all, it should be presented as a direct choice to the user. Do they want markup or VE? The user should make the choice at account creation, not WMF. RGloucester (talk) 17:06, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
237. Opt-in. While it's clear from above that this discussion is in dire need of input from people with expertise in software development, I still think users should be able to opt-in to sweeping UX changes. No software feature is ever "finished"; it's simply deemed acceptable enough to release. This feature is not that great—running a simply set of heuristics on it reveals many fundamental UX problems. We don't want this to be people's default experience. --Laser brain (talk) 17:13, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
238. Opt-in. VisualEditor still shows a lot of room for improvement, so the editor should have a positive choice to make, at least for now. Kudu ^~I/O~ 17:14, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
239. Support Lfstevens (talk) 17:25, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
240. Opt-in. Until it's out of beta. Will someone close this already? Snowball! I find it's rarely useable for my edits, and believe the same applies to new users. Once the major bugs folks mention most are fixed, it should be the default. --Elvey (talk) 17:48, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
241. Opt-in. Editors should understand how the sausage is made before they start garnishing it. bd2412 T 17:51, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
242. Opt-in for the time being. In six months when the bugs have been ironed out and the most intricate aspects of template syntax can be reliably edited with VE, we can talk.Tazerdadog (talk) 17:56, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
243. Opt-in - On paper, the concept of the VE is of course sound, but in practice, as we know to our despair, it's just a no-go for the time being. Per Rochelimit above -- the Visual Editor should be opt-in to prevent vandalism of both an intentional and unintentional nature. Ronan McGurrin (talk) 18:00, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
244. Opt-in. I creatively suggest that VE be the manner an IP uses to edit; it will definitely slow down the IPs here to vandalize, and it gives us a new approach to suggesting benefits for an IP to create an account. :) John Cline (talk) 18:18, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
245. Opt-in. --Olsi (talk) 18:21, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
246. Always Opt-in. Even if VE was somehow "fixed," there simply isn't any reason for it to be used by default. Gnutronium 18:27, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
247. Opt-in. No doubt!--Soul Train (talk) 18:31, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
248. Opt-in I believe it is more confusing and intimidating then editing source code. Rejectwater (talk) 18:34, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
249. Optin With a full explanation of all the problems they are likely to suffer if they do opt in. Arjayay (talk) 18:45, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
250. Opt-in: It's a good idea, but when I try to use it, it's slow or just does not work; also, editing image captions seems very complex. Perhaps I'm just an old fuddy-duddy trapped in the past, but I do prefer the old system.  Giano  18:55, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
251. Opt-in for now Definitely opt-in for now, until it's further refined with bugs virtually non-existent, and features (such as citation inputs) increased Tom W (talk) 18:58, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
252. Opt-in This editor looks like it could be a great help to inexperienced editors, but at the moment, it's so slow and buggy that it's nearly impossible to use. Once most of the bugs and errors have been addressed, I will probably re-consider my choice. George Sorby 19:28, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
253. Opt-in VisualEditor, in its present state and probably for several months, will scare away new editors and damage Wikipedia articles. This shouldn't have been rolled in its slow and buggy condition just so some mid-level manager could claim that he got his project done on time. Chris the speller ^yack 19:41, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
254. Opt-in This was incredibly confusing to me, both as a new user (registred just yesterday) and an informatician. Kebabipita (talk) 19:48, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

     Yes, the VisualEditor was forced onto all users despite numerous warnings from experienced users and software experts about the many risks and potential to confuse or alienate new users with all the known problems in VE, long before it was released across the English Wikipedia. -Wikid77 (talk) 20:30, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

255. Opt-in. I don't even like it, but making it a default is even worse. Niteshift36 (talk) 20:17, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
256. Opt-in At least until it's more stable. elmindreda (talk) 21:39, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
257. Opt-in. It was absolutely unusable when I (inadvertently) tried it with my alternate account on my phone. But features still in beta should never be turned on by default. Rivertorch (talk) 21:43, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
258. Opt In - for everyone. Frankly, until it works properly we should not be having this discussssion, and once it is working it should not be forced on anyone. --Robert EA Harvey (talk) 21:53, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
259. Opt-in. I can't tell you how many times I accidentally clicked it to be greeted be the god-awful slowness. It's not ready for the red carpet yet. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:56, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
260. Opt-in. The default shouldn't be VE. Kittenono (talk) 22:08, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
261. Opt-in. For everyone, not just new users and anons. And for those, cough - MZMcBride - cough, that have been critising anti-VE comments from contributors with zero or few VE edits ... I've tried VE a few times but never saved in it either because it wouldn't load for me so was just generally not up to the task, always reverting to the text editor. This does not mean I'm not familiar with VE and its failings. WMF should leave VE where it belongs - in wikia.com FanN | talk 22:40, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
262. Opt-in. Still beta, not fully useful as of right now. DDima 00:24, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
263. Opt-in. Visual Editor is easier for spelling mistakes and other typos, however i feel it hurts the new editors more than helps. They never learn the wikitext that is required for harder edits. I feel to really help new editors, more editing help videos and simpler instruction guides need to be made. Especially when it comes to making tables and charts. --Jamo58 (talk) 00:29, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

     Other users have noted the need for a wp:Talking text editor, to give help and advice to users. -Wikid77 03:22, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

264. Opt-in-only for six months. Two fold advantages: (1) show our users that WP works reliably today; (2) take the heat off the developers and give them the chance to stabilise and debug the current iteration. After six-months advertise a one-week notice of changes and improvements; if this one-week period validates the improvements in reliability, speed and conformity, open a site-notice poll (like this) for switching from Opt-in→Opt-out. When it was deployed I believed that VE had the potential to be the future; I believe the negative experiences and reception are because (a) VE does not load/work/save (yes, I have reported bugs on bugzilla), (b) VE deployment was not (despite intentions) appropriately advertised at the point of deployment (to pre-empt MZMcBride, this was reported and documented with my assistance on MediaWiki talk:Sitenotice#Visual Editor and #mediawiki-visualeditor at the time; as was the request for sitenotices on interwiki deployment noted above in the same talk page). —Sladen (talk) 00:36, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
265. Opt-in. I also find it very slow, especially on large sections/pages, and especially on an iPad. The view of the page jumps up and down a couple of times in a confusing way. Another problem is that precision edits are pretty much impossible in tricky places, such as adding a comma after an italicised phrase or a quote or similar. 'Tis a great idea, since wiki markup is difficult or forbidding, but it needs a lot more refining. Ricklaman (talk) 00:49, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
266. Opt-in for reasons ably given above.Brozhnik (talk) 01:12, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
267. Opt-in. VE is still too unreliable to be pushed at new users - especially given the tidying-up work required of existing editors - and when I last used it was missing features that I'd consider essential for good editing. To be honest, the reasoning behind forcing a broken and incomplete beta release upon the community still escapes me - why not wait until it's finished, polished and fully-functional (as I'm sure it will be, provided Mr Moeller stops closing serious and widely-supported issues as WONTFIX) before pushing it out wiki-wide, rather than putting thousands of editors off it long-term? FLHerne (talk) 01:23, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
268. Opt-in: as I'm not able to use VE on en-wiki with my current settings, I tested it on fr-wiki, and found it quite confusing to use for anything beyond the simplest of edits - and sometimes not even those (See for example this edit, which didn't use VE: when I tried to remove the extra space, there was an error message declaring that I could only do so in source mode.) Adding common special characters like endashes or accented letters was difficult to do, particularly where the character needed didn't already exist on the page (and so couldn't simply be copied and pasted). There are also issues regarding templates/references. I can figure out why there are references in fr:Établissement_de_la_radio_tunisienne even though the VE-edit mode says there aren't; could a new editor?. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:38, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

     Nikkimaria, the references list is often truncated in VE; I and others have noticed the same. By the way, I have another problem similar to yours: I can use VE on German Wikipedia, but not on English Wikipedia. I know of at least one user on German Wikipedia who can use it here, but not on German Wikipedia. We're not alone. :) --Andreas JN466 02:45, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

269. Neither Kindly show a selection with help and let the user decide whether they want to choose visual or text editor during the signup process itself. Also, since Opt-in is shown as the first option in this questionnaire there is a likelihood of it getting maximum votes and hence biased views. On the other hand if wiki allows the user to choose both and take their opinion via a questionnaire after a month from regular users, wiki would know which if the two has more acceptance. Ideally A/B_testing must be conducted and its results must be considered to take appropriate decision. Ganesh J. Acharya (talk) 02:18, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
270. Opt-in: The wysiwyg will trash carefully maintained markup and make the articles harder to maintain. Also, if a potential editor can't be bothered to take five minutes to learn a simple syntax then they probably also can't be bothered to provide sources or do the other bits of honest work that it takes to make a good article. Craig Pemberton (talk) 02:26, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

     VE counter-culture hacking pages: Already many pages reveal the new VE users, unaware of wikitext (unseen), are mimicking lists by a counter-culture of nowiki-speak in hidden markup: "<nowiki> </nowiki> 3. Item". Ironically, VE, intended to simplify editing, is confounding new users unaware how lists can be easily aligned by simple asterisk-bullets '*' or '#' and footnotes easily grouped by reftags, plus long-term users encounter the VE nowiki-speak as complicating the simple nature of wikitext, with bizarre concoctions to mimic lists. VE appears to be one of the greatest software disasters ever, as the epitome of "design flaw" from an objective viewpoint. -Wikid77 03:22, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

271. Opt-in: After my own bad experience of making a large edit (without wikilinks) and then encountering a bug where the save mechanism failed, I think VE should not be a new user's experience. Wikipedia has attracted new users for years with the old interface, there is no reason to rush VE in until it is in better shape. —Megiddo1013 02:34, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
272. Opt-in during beta, opt-out afterwards: It is much friendlier to newbies than the source editor, but can result in frustration/confusion if it results in corrupted pages, etc. - ^Darwin/_Peacock ^[Talk] 03:04, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
273. Opt-in I'm no technical guy but this would have been the best way to go based on what I've read. I think there would be enough editors to tinker with VE before it was implemented to everyone. It was supposed to be for new editors but if there was an opt-in before there would be a lot more established editors who would then be experts after the tinkering and there would be much more help for the newer editors in the long-run. The most interesting man in the world (talk) 03:51, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
274. Neither Visual Editor should be removed from the system completely until it is fixed and works like a real application should. It is full of bugs and should only be available for use in user sandboxes.--Paul McDonald (talk) 03:55, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
275. Of the two options, opt-in. It's slow, buggy, and less user-friendly than the wikicode version. A preferable option would be to postpone having the Visual editor as an option until such time as the bugs have been removed (or preferably, abandon it completely - it sucks giant ones). Grutness...wha? 03:58, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
276. Opt-in: Judging by the number for opting in and the rationale (it's an absolute bugger!), I'm not the only one avoiding it like the plague & going straight to 'edit source'. I use Firefox, but have tried the visual editor on Chrome & IE Opera and it's equally flawed. On the rare occasions it has 'saved', I've had to go into the source & fix the errors it's made. Definitely & absolutely MUST be stabilised before being unleashed on newbies who'll be frightened off contributing. IMHO, it shouldn't be available for opting-in until a new contributor has put in quite a few hours working from the source. Sadly, it's a monster. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 03:59, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
277. Opt-in: Not only will it hide warnings like "<--do not change this date; see talk-page-->" to the new comers to the wiki inviting rampant editing but also obviously has many other issues noted above. Also I agree with #187. Can you really write a fully policy compliant article with just VE? --lTopGunl (talk) 04:19, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
278. Opt-in: I tried the new editor a few times and disliked its operation and how it misunderstood my intentions. It is not ready and I have gone to the trouble of removing it as a choice from my Preferences because I kept clicking on it by mistake because the Edit link defaulted to the irritating new editor, and the Edit Source option only appeared after a hover on the Edit link (which is stupid), and I drive the interface a lot faster than that: I can't hang around all day for a damned hover to be recognised and enacted. — O'Dea (talk) 04:21, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
279. Opt-in: The Visual Editor should be enabled by default to the new users because some of the new users are not familiar with the coding of the Wikipedia (and other Wikimedia families). While I understand most of the users are able to write an article, however the unfamiliarity of the Wikimedia coding may cause the page to shows some error messages exists in the article. Error messages in the article can compromise the reading experience. The Visual Editor is based on WYSIWYG (What You See is What You Get) concept in which when editing, it editing on preview view on real-time so that it can easily spot how does the article should be look like before saving to public view. Since this version is currently in beta, the editing system should come with ability to switch between Visual and Coding view through tab when editing. -- WPSamson (talk) 04:29, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
280. Opt-in: The visual editor is annoying, people shouldn't be encouraged to use it. Crypticfirefly (talk) 04:45, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
281. Opt-in: It's a great feature, but needs work. For the sake of users who come from other MediaWiki wikis, it should be disabled for ease-of-use until its problems are fixed. --GeorgeBarnick - Talk/Contribs 04:52, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
282. Opt-in until the VE has been thoroughly redesigned and made fit for purpose. -- The Anome (talk) 05:32, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
283. Opt-in is my first preference. My second preference would be for new editors who sign up to have to choose upfront which option they choose; they would also be informed upfront that they may go back and forth any time between disabled VE and enabled VE. allixpeeke (talk) 05:36, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
284. Opt-in before stable ver. Visual editor should not be encouraged to use before more functions are settled. Curisu | Talk 05:44, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
285. Opt-in. And please restore the edit tabs! Vegaswikian (talk) 06:19, 2 August 2013
286. Opt-in. When I began editing, I had many problems which tended to deter me from contributing. But using the source editor was not one of them. I think that having to use the confusing and buggy VE would have put me off. Maproom (talk) 06:42, 2 August 2013 (UTC) (UTC)
287. Opt-in. Its very good to have a visual editor. It really helps.User:Ajeyaajeya
288. Opt-in. First of all, it's in beta; there is no excuse for setting something that's inevitably buggy and unfinished as a default option. Second of all, I don't know if anybody else experiences this but I have large issues with absurdly slow loading times when attempting to use VisualEditor, which deters me from using it. I, for one, loathe VisualEditor in its current state; I've disabled it for the foreseeable future and will not be re-enabling it until it's much closer to being 'finished' or 'finished'. Aurora (talk | contribs) 07:02, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
289. Opt-in please. Re-open the question when opt-in's become majority. ~Michael Allan 07:19, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
290. Opt-in. VE should be available to everyone with a warning. It is in fact slower than markups. Moreover, it needs caution. Editorranjitksharma (talk) 07:38, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
291. Are we seriously discussing this? The visual editor is slow, buggy and, when it comes to edit anything other than plain text, actually less user-friendly than wikicode. Of course it should be opt-in; in fact, it should be filed under "obscure wikitools some people, for some reason, like to use". complainer (talk) 08:09, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
292. Opt-in until most of the bugs are fixed. Toffanin (talk) 08:15, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
293. Opt-in Fox1942 (talk) 09:00, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
294. Opt-in VE should be made available till they have certain number of edits. Ddineshk (talk) 09:10, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
295. Opt-in. I agree that the traditional editing process (in which editors must learn HTML markup) is probably daunting to new editors (although I, like comment #176 above, learned by following others' examples). I tried using VE when I edited an article on the ancient Greek-Persian wars. I made many minor edits (typos, grammar, clarifications, etc.), but VE did NOT save them. Very frustrating. Also, it was slow, it did not open to the section that I'd specified, and it does not offer special characters (Greek or Cyrillic alphabets, special punctuation marks, etc.). I think that making editing more like using Microsoft's Word processor is basically a good idea: I often find it confusing to insert a reference into a series of existing references since it's hard to see where one reference begins and the next one ends; the source text can be VERY messy and confusing. (BTW, what the heck is "transclusion"? Software engineers' jargon should be avoided whenever possible.) Cwkmail (talk) 09:13, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
296. Opt-in -- too many bugs. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149;^dissera! 10:15, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
297. Opt-in. The editor is not finished and makes editing very complicated and fiddly, especially for new editors. – Acdx (talk) 10:25, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
298. Opt-in --Roberto Segnali all'Indiano 10:39, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
299. Opt-in: The editor is incomplete and openly declares itself to be at beta level. Only after extensive testing by a small group of people who have a range of skills and editing styles should it even be considered for wider use!  DDStretch  (talk) 11:36, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
300. Opt-in: Really should not even be in beta yet (nowiki, nested sub/superscript markup, need I say more?) Double sharp (talk) 11:46, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

     No subscript insertions in VE, as of 1 August 2013, yet compare the ease: X{{sub|1}}Y{{sub|2}}Z{{sub|easy wikitext}} for "X₁Y₂Z_{easy wikitext}". -Wikid77 16:14, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

301. Opt-in per review. Kierzek (talk) 13:02, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
302. Opt-in now and forever. Per #102, #211, and others. Levdr1lp / talk 13:50, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
303. Opt-in --Kjetil_r 13:58, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
304. Opt-in. Vanquisher (talk) 14:01, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
305. Opt-in Its that buggy it gives out the wrong impression. --JetBlast (talk) 14:16, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
306. Opt-in OriumX (talk) 14:23, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
307. Opt-in It's not that I hate anything new, I like new things - if they work well. This doesn't. Ellin Beltz (talk) 14:35, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

     By comparison, the new Lua script was well-received in March 2013, and now "{{substring|one good example|4|4}}" instantly shows "good". -Wikid77 16:14, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

308. Opt-in It's beta-software. ~~Ebe123~~ on the go! 14:42, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
309. Opt-in, because it is beta and it is with bugs. Beta software is usually tested by skilled users.--Yopie (talk) 16:14, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
310. Opt-in for right now, and the forseeeable future. When VE is easier to use than edit source, only then would considering a decision to make it the default be appropriate. How much money and time we've invested in something should not be a criteria. --Bejnar (talk) 16:47, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
311. Opt-in it is too glitchy. It introduces too many errors into articles. Every edit that I've seen using VE has had to be reverted because it messes too many other things up in the article (duplicating content, messing up tables, etc.)Goodsdrew (talk) 17:23, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
312. I would say no, because one of the greatest features of wikipedia in my opinion is the infobox. Not all articles have one yet, and they are slowly getting added. Providing the code first gives a chance to show that you can use infoboxes, and you can also see the blank lines where something you know (say you know that a new mayor was elected and hasn't been added yet), Shouldn't that be added? They should know they can. Also it gives them a chance to learn wikicode. I think a best case scenario is everyone learns it and uses it. Techdude3331 (talk) 17:45, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
313. Opt-in The visual editor doesn't work properly. And it makes the website a little slower in some content than the normal. And it has many bugs. So, I think it will be wise enough to disable it. Sourov0000 (talk) 17:46, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
314. Opt-in I am not a fan of the visual editor; it doesn't work as seamlessly as other WISYWIGs I've used. New users shouldn't be offered this potentially confusing and destructive shortcut. LeavemealoneNSA (talk) 17:50, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
315. opt-in Big, slow, slow to load, not compatible with all browsers, just a bad idea all around. Sorry, I don't mean to impugn those who are working on it, but it's 2 steps forward and 12 steps back. It's great for people with FTTP for Internet connectivity and Core i5's or Bulldozers for examples, but worse for people with less-than-stellar Internet or older computers. Also, if JavaScript isn't enabled at all (think NoScript), it would presumably fail totally if enabled by default. Wikimedia markup just isn't all that tough to learn or to use. The most trouble I have is finding a closing </ref> when editing a page. Otherwise the markup is fairly straightforward. -- Joe (talk) 18:50, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
316. Opt-in (except for a limited trial where new users are randomly assigned in or out) as VE is so buggy as exaccerbate new-user frustration. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 19:57, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
317. Opt-in Users should not be forced to use the new visual editor as I currently am forced to use IE8 at work and the Visual Editor has not loaded correctly in this version, I just stopped tyring to load it, this would lead to me not being able to edit wikipedia pages at work which is where I mostly do my editing. Cmjdm (talk) 20:25, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
318. Opt-in But, I think that a user should have a right to choose, so they have to make a choice when they create their account. This means that the user has to make a choice whenever they sign up. No option is selected by default though. Thanks, George Georgeh109 (My Talk Page) 20:31, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
319. Opt-in' It's still too "beta". And not being available in all major browsers is likely to be a source of confusion to new users if they use different browsers in different situations. Kerry (talk) 20:55, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
320. Opt-in Currently it has too many bugs and should not be offered to new users until it has reached a reasonable llevel of stability. I currently have it turned off, but I am not averse to trying it out again when it is out of beta. Stigmatella aurantiaca (talk) 21:43, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
321. Opt-in newbies to visual editor don't realize a lot of the features they're enabling. They may unintentionally through pasting or misclicking clutter up our source code with unnecessary things. Wiki code is incredibly easy to understand and any users of value will be up to the challenge of mastering it. If they are not, I question how much benefit they can provide the wiki in terms of content. It's much harder to understand things like how to properly reference than it is our source code. Ranze (talk) 22:36, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
322. Opt-in satellizer (talk - contributions) 23:31, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
323. Opt-in The biggest problem with this is that it will encourage editors not to learn wikimarkup. As it is, it presents wikimarkup as something "other" or "hard". Without it, editors may just learn a tiny piece at a time, but once they get started, they can fairly simply progress to being able to use templates and more complex wikimarkup fairly simply. – Philosopher ^{Let us reason together.} 23:37, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

     Indeed the wikitext is much simpler to use for nested templates. Imagine using VE to insert a cite template, but also need to convert a quoted measurement into metres, as in "royal robe was 2x3 yards". The wikitext could use "{{convert|2|x|3|yd|m|1 |disp=sqbr}}" to show "2×3 yards [1.8×2.7 m]" and put that inside the template "{{cite_web |quote=royal robe...}}" but imagine editing in VE to insert that cite, then for the quote parameter, trying to insert the {convert} template, while already inserting the cite_web template. No wonder VE cannot even format some complex pages when trying to edit. -Wikid77 03:40, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

324. Opt-in I suppose if people wish to test and de-bug alpha and beta software not ready for prime-time, then they should be able to do so. — Ched :  ?  23:44, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
325. Opt-in Joining the opinion of "Sarahj2107 11:48, 30 July 2013 (UTC)" Uncle Scrooge (talk) 23:59, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
326. Opt-in, definitely. Alpha and beta software should always be opt-in. Not everyone wants to test new software. NealCruco (talk) 00:38, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
327. As many explained earlier, I think VE is not a good thing to have new editors start with. Mohamed CJ (talk) 01:09, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
328. Opt-in - too problematic and too many bugs. —IJzeren Jan _Uszkiełtu? 01:53, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
329. Opt-in As a new user, my experiences thus far with the Visual Editor have been negative. The issues I experienced are not new, based on the bug reports I have read- therefore, I will not be submitting duplicate reports. Please refrain from looking up my editing history and commenting that 50% of my edits have been made with VE; this is because I have only made two successful edits, and that statistic does not represent my negative experience with VE. Overall, I find the source editor to be faster (loading, editing text, and saving edits), easier to learn, and less prone to error. I believe that the simpler, more established editor should be the default, and that users should opt-in for the newer, bulkier editor that is still ironing out most of its bugs (not to mention that it is not even to the RC stage yet). Ehope.pandab34r (talk) 02:02, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
330. Opt-in, until VE is more complete and no longer beta. —ADavidB 02:10, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
331. Perhaps in the future it should be made default, but it's not ready yet. -Thunderforge (talk) 05:49, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
332. Opt-in, until users who decide to use it and keep it are many many more than everybody else. --FocalPoint (talk) 05:57, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
333. Opt-in, until VE is fully developed at a minimum. And please make it easy to find how to activate it. DPdH (talk) 07:36, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
334. Opt-in. New users should not be defaulted to a beta program. That is absurd. New users are always going to be on a learning curve of some sort, completely regardless of the editing platform. Their access should default to a well-established editing platform. Wiki markup is not that difficult to learn, it is well tested, and new users have a very good support community. New users can become as proficient as they choose or are able to, and any errors are relatively easily sorted out. My argument comes from both personal and observational experience. I myself have made various errors during the course of my learning curves (not to say there are not more learning curves to come). Many editors contributed to my learning, whether it be tips, comments, assistance, or outright criticism: it all matters. It is absurd to expose novices by default to a platform that is known to require debugging. It is true that for the purposes of debugging, one needs to test such a program on a sample of novices. But is exactly what it should be: a sample of novices who have consciously opted-in, after being informed of what it is they are opting into: some readers will recognise this as the concept of "informed consent", which is not just some esoteric human rights issue, but rather, one of pragmatism. Wotnow (talk) 08:25, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
335. Opt-in-- Dewritech (talk) 10:58, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
336. Opt-in for now (until it's out of beta).--Gregor K. (talk) 11:04, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
337. Strong opt-in until it is finished. {| class="wikitable" |- | cjquines || talk |} 11:28, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
338. Beta software should always be opt-in. Parsecboy (talk) 12:35, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
339. Opt-In should always be the default action on any function. All users should get, by default, the same (typically limited) functionality, and opt-in (as desired) to enable more functions. Truthanado (talk) 12:46, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
340. Opt-in - beta/unfinished software should not be used in a production environment and certainly not be put into the hands of the least experienced users. GraemeLeggett (talk) 12:56, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
341. Opt-in — there have been TONS of bugs IDed so far, and I saw somewhere that the devs will have their hands full with other stuff for the foreseeable future. There will be plenty of users who choose to keep using it, but until things are a LOT better we shouldn't force people to use beta software by default. (Because that's why it's called "beta" software.) Give them a choice, but don't make it default. Ignatzmice•talk 13:41, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
342. Opt-in – VE, while making it easier for new users to edit, has many known bugs, as stated above. Until a version of VE comes out that doesn't force users to scroll to the top to create a wikilink, make bold/italic text, or create section headings, I prefer to opt in. Epicgenius^{(talk to me • see my contributions)} 15:06, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
343. Opt-in — the VE breaks too many parts of the existing Wikipedia edit tool suite; should definitely be opt-in, so folks don't have to spend time figuring out how to turn the infernal thing off, as I did. Moreover, there ought to be a way to permanently disable the visual editor, not merely make it the second choice.N2e (talk) 15:15, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
344. Opt-in – except with very minor edits, I always review my changes before saving to make sure VE didn't add any <nowiki> tags or anything weird like that. New users will not look for that, or if they see it they will assume it is normal. ~HueSatLum 16:43, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
345. Opt-in — VE should be denied to anonymous logins, period. I could be wrong, of course, but IMHO the majority of anonymous users are just troublemakers looking to wreck havoc in the data. At the very least they're likely to be INexperienced and should not be given a powerful tool. You wouldn't hand _your_ two-year-old a pneumatic nail gun, right?! Experienced users hopping in for a quick fix don't care which editor they're using. And creating whole new articles or making major changes/additions (where the power of VE is actually useful) should remain in the venue of experienced users, again IMHO, because (1) they're experienced and know how Wiki articles should be approached, and (2) they're used to Wiki hiccups and won't go berserk when VE goes south (as beta software is wont to do on occasion LoL). And, last but NOT least, VE is STILL BETA!! To be honest, maybe it should be limited to a select number of users who are experienced Wiki-editors AND software designers. JimScott (talk) 16:51, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
346. Opt-in -- VE should NOT be denied to anonymous logins. None of these are really anonymous as their IP addresses are clearly shown. I don't see any benefit to making people put up a name instead of using an IP address. Besides that the posts should be considered on their own merits. From my looking at the debates where some people have used just IP addresses, the claim of preventing anonymous postings is really just a way to remove legitimate comments that others disagree with. Bobbys63 (talk) 11:51, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
347. Still horrendous, buggy, and limited. Wouldn't wish it on anyone. Stifle (talk) 16:52, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
348. Opt-in – and not just because it's beta or has bugs. I don't like the Visual editor, and I don't like Wysiwyg editors in general. I think there are many advantages to the old editor, in terms of ease of use, speed, simplicity, and helping users better and more thoroughly understand how Wikipedia works, and for this reason I'd always like the new editor to be opt-in only. The bugs just make me feel more strongly and urgently, but I would support opt-in even if there were none of the bugs mentioned here. Cazort (talk) 16:56, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
349. Opt-in at least until the visual editor is perfected. I think VE stands more of a chance of confusing and annoying new users than being required to learn the markup language. I am strongly in favor of putting an option in Settings to turn the damn thing off entirely. I will never use it. To me, it is a superfluous gadget that hinders my work, rather than supporting or facilitating it. Judging from the comments I've seen here, I am not the only one who feels this way. --Bluejay Young (talk) 18:05, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
350. Opt-in I have only been occasionally annoyed by it, though I haven't tried much serious content work with it and do not think it would be suited for such work. However, it is a great supplemental tool for various bits of small-time grunt work. Making it an opt-in function is best, though, until all the kinks are worked out.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 18:23, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
351. Opt-in Olaf (talk) 19:06, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
352. Strong opt-in Beta Software should always be Opt In. -- RWJP (talk) 19:17, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
353. Opt-in - It is not ready, yet. --Joshua Issac (talk) 19:25, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
354. Opt-in My 2 cents is that this whole VE thing is a fiasco. It seems to have resulted in a bump in anonymous vandalism and only frustrated and alienated established editors. The stated goal of VE was to attract more new users — but my feeling is that it has so far only managed to repel existing ones. The VE seems to have been developed by the WMF as an internal project by mostly hired engineers, and already in a March 2013 blog they seemed to admit that the task they were facing was an impossible one: VE simply can not be made to work right with our present wiki-markup using the approach they had chosen. The project seems to have been pushed through regardless. When the team hit the deadline, without much thought the WMF took a nasty dump on the whole en-wikipedia community by feeding the still-buggy software on every user without opt-in. I was surprised to see this happen, because after the blog post it seemed to project was infeasible and was not going to ship in many years, if ever. I tried to edit with VE maybe 2-3 times, and found it just as futile as I was expecting it to be, and turned it off from the preferences, just like I do with those banners that begin to haunt us around Christmas each year. Please make everyone a favor and revert the UI to how it was before, with VE as strictly opt-in. And WMF should probably quit wasting donor money on this project so you don't have to run so many banners again at the year's end, just saying. --hydrox (talk) 19:39, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

     Use of wikitext editor has rebounded: Edit-counts show users have re-awakened and returned to using the wikitext editor: edits by new/old usernames are 96% wikitext (up from 91% last week), and IP edits are 80% by wikitext editor (up from 70%, 30% were VE) in a sample of 3,000 edits on 3 August 2013. The overall IP edits are still 27% of total (799 of 3,000) as during last month. Be assured: people who write encyclopedia articles tend to be quick-learners and not long distracted by fads. Some people prefer power tools, circular saws and drills, while others might plod along with a chisel and handsaw, but not for long. -Wikid77 23:55, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

355. Opt-in. Does not allow edit of single sections? Thus, a newbie cannot cause extra work by mis-editing a page. Plus, it is beta. -(unsigned by JustAnotherJoe (talk) 22:04, 3 August 2013‎)
356. Opt-in. (1) The non-visual editor is in many ways easier and clearer to use, since it shows you everything that affects the appearance of a page. It's like the difference between raw HTML and Dreamweaver: the latter overlays a bunch of stuff, making it difficult to tell exactly what the results of a change wil be, while the former is plain and clear. (2) Why fix something that is not, and never was, broken? No one thus far seems to have much if any trouble learning to use the regular editor. Bookgrrl ^holler/lookee here 00:06, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

     Problem is rambling footnotes which VE only hides: Instead, we need a tool which could semi-automatically move many reftag footnotes, which cluttered the text, into References as {{Reflist|refs=<ref name="x"></ref>}} and simplify the upper text with just "<ref name=x/>". -Wikid77 04:50, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

357. Opt-in. As much as I'd want to make editing more accessible, it's still in beta and simply isn't ready to be released Eemoso (talk) 00:56, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
358. Keep it opt-in at least while it is beta and it extremely slow — NickK (talk) 01:30, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
359. Opt-in. (Although I would rather lose it). It is too easy to screw up existing heading structures. Infindebula (talk) 01:36, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

     People do not know an extra VE backspace deletes the infobox. Imagine the puzzled users, unaware how typing one extra backspace in VE deleted the entire infobox (Gee, what happened?), and so some people want new users to edit with that?!? -Wikid77 04:50, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

360. Opt-in. Its buggy and its harder to use than the traditional editor where you have the benefit of seeing all the formatting Dimspace (talk) 01:41, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
361. Opt-in. I think new users should start learning the markup language.Neo139 (talk) 01:48, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

     According to Kaizen, if something seems difficult, then do it more and more, not less, and repeat until it becomes easy. -Wikid77 04:50, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

362. Opt-in. Learning how to work with the markup language is an important step toward becoming an effective editor. If you want to skip this step, you should have to make an active choice to do so. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 02:18, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
363. Opt-in --Camilo Sánchez Talk to me 03:09, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
364. Opt-in this is extremely buggy, I just wanted to change one single character or a page and the whole infobox was cleaned without me noticing... But I admit that I was not very careful at this point, but most noobs and anons are most probably even more careless. especially since html coded things (like Ruby) cant be changed in VE.
365. Opt-in, the traditional wiki markup editor is more reliable, more capable and more common across the web. A segment of potential editors may prefer a wysiwyg editor and can opt to try it. Bcharles (talk) 06:20, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
366. Opt-in. Permanently. I tried it twice and gave up. Like many others I learnt editing here through trial and error and pinging the talk pages of more experienced contributors. VE seems to lead to even more errors with pages. Valenciano (talk) 08:45, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
367. Opt-in: For at least as long as it is in Beta, it should be opt-in. I'd prefer the markup editor to remain the default even when the VE is out of Beta. Ahmer Jamil Khan (talk) 10:27, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
368. Opt-in. I had one experience with VE, and it was most displeasing due to extremely poor performance. I haven't tried many features, because scrolling made the editor unusable.MiniCampos (talk) 13:28, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
369. Opt-in: Keep this opt-in for a while longer, at least until the functions are more stable. Gautehuus (talk) 13:31, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
370. Opt-in for now: it's just not ready. Wait until hidden comments can be shown to editors, and it's impossible to accientally delete a template by backspacing, and the system for adding references is much more user-friendly, and ... (other VE users will have other pass/fail criteria). Then release a great, welcoming, new interface which will allow non-geeky subject experts to use their expertise to improve the encyclopedia much more easily. PamD 13:51, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
371. Opt-in. One must be able to concentrate on only the content. Hulten (talk) 13:54, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
372. Opt-in: Knowledge is structured. Anyone wishing to contribute to Wikipedia editing is necessarily obligated to understand that "knowledge" in the Wikipedia sense is not supposed to be just a vague stream of thought. Wikipedia is, by definition, elitist in this sense. New users should be encouraged to use mediawikicode and structured editing. Boud (talk) 14:06, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
373. Opt-in - I've taken a brief look at the new WYSIWYG editor, and it's great! I think it will really help new users... in 3 to 6 months, when the bugs others have found are worked out, and the lag is a bit more manageable (I wasn't even able to make an edit due to 30s+ lag times on each action I took using FireFox). I really like the idea of this editor and think it should be enabled by default... just not quite yet. Thanks for all the hard work to those working on this project. Keep it up! It's looking great so far:). — Gopher65_talk 15:07, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
374. Opt-in. Wikipedia is not a blog and not something to be edited haphazardly. It requires structure and focus. The VE makes it that much easier for new and anonymous editors to begin changing text without taking any steps to learn the basic standards and policies of Wikipedia. I also agree that the VE needs additional work. By opting in, individual editors can make the personal decision whether the VE is sufficiently useful for their needs. Factchecker25 (talk) 15:11, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
375. Opt-in. It makes vanadalism appear too easy. Mainline421 (talk) 16:46, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
376. Opt-in. I didn't like it and think it would lower the average quality of edits even if it worked like a charm. Muad (talk) 15:54, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
377. Opt-in. I can't believe this version would have been implemented for anyone, much less new accounts! Rust never sleeps. Trilobitealive (talk) 16:22, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
378. Opt-in at present. - Pointillist (talk) 16:55, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
379. Opt-in, or provide a choice between the traditional and VE systems without pre-selecting one or the other. The Rev (talk) 17:11, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
380. Definitely Opt-in. Trajing (talk) 17:30, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
381. Opt-in. The visual editor and the links to it everywhere are annoying and really cluttering up the reading experience of articles, and the tool doesn't edit the actual article text (which is the source, not its visual representation) and is not capable of handling the article text (source) responsibly. People using it are in danger of cluttering up the source (ie. the article) and should use this less than optimal tool at their own risk. Personally, I find the visual editor useless, and it would be best if new editors were encouraged to learn to edit the proper way as everyone else have managed in the past ten years. Using the visual editor is like driving a car with no sight. Tataral (talk) 17:39, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
382. Opt-in for sure while the code is in beta. -- RoySmith (talk) 18:12, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
383. Opt-in. It's beta code! Jdp407 (talk) 18:34, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
384. Opt-in. It's an invitation to vandalism. Peterrivington (talk) 19:14, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
385. Opt-in until out of Beta. My experience is that nothing drives people away from a program /web site faster than buggy soft ware. But wiki mark up is not perfect either, and possibly t reason VE bombs is because we have so many styles and transcluded templates. This discuss also does have tones of "Bah! Pictures! what s wrong with pen and paper?)"79.69.205.62 (talk) 19:19, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
386. Opt-in. I wouldn't want to make it *easier* for numbskulls to vandalize. I know I'm well intended, but I still like the fact that it takes a modicum of *effort* to make changes. Demodave (talk) 20:01, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
387. Opt-in doesn't work on some platforms I use. Stuartyeates (talk) 20:31, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
388. Opt-in. Because Beta. --Orangutanklaus (talk) 20:46, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
389. Opt-in, certainly as long as it's Beta. Plus, my own experiences with the VE have not been encouraging. --Craig418 (talk) 21:11, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
390. Opt-in always. Archolman User talk:Archolman 21:58, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
391. Opt-in. I've run into several bugs while trying to save edits with VE, and it's too unstable for new users. —DragonLord^{talk/contribs} 22:25, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
392. Opt-in because the VE sucks. And at no point in the future should it be any other way. -Kai445 (talk) 23:27, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
393. Opt-in mainly because of its buggy features, and vandalism. 7cc.19edv (talk) 00:08, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
394. Opt-in VE is so bad it should be abolished. It is too shaky to force on new users.PumpkinSky talk 00:27, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
395. Opt-in VE is still a beta, it's too slow and inconvenient.--Typing General (talk) 01:20, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
396. Opt-in. New users should not be automatically made beta-testers. --Stephen Gilbert (talk) 01:48, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
397. Fe Nite (talk) 02:02, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
398. Opt-in. If someone really wants it, they'll figure out how to turn it on. TiMike (talk) 03:04, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
399. ""Opt-in"" Until the Visual Editor can be proven to be fairly stable and bug-free, I believe it should be opt-in only. However, once it has a fairly good track record of stability, there's no reason we can't publicize it to all users so they are made aware of it if they weren't already. Wiki's aren't always the easiest site to get the hang of, at least when editing and creating content. There's a lot to learn - talk pages, user pages, main pages, etc. The last thing you want a new user to go through is being overwhelmed by a buggy experience. There's no reason all users have to know about it right now, we can always share a site-wide note like the request for comment on this very matter. Just my 2.5₵ Corey Edwards (talk) 05:15, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
400. Opt-in err on stability. kschiesser (talk) 05:48, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
401. Opt-in. Even just from the fairly limited testing that's been done so far, I've already had to clean up entirely too many cases where a new user or an anonymous IP used VE to bury an article in <nowiki> tags for no discernible reason whatsoever — as well as another article where an editor used VE to add numbers to a list that was already numbered, causing its entries to display as "1. 1.", "2. 2.", "3. 3.", etc. I understand that the tool has valid and productive uses, and not everything that people do with it is going to be as stupid as those examples — although I have to acknowledge that I can't figure the damn thing out to save my life, and I'm one of the most experienced editors on Wikipedia. Option for people who have demonstrated enough knowledge of Wikipedia to figure out how things work and how to use it properly, sure — default option for everybody including anonymous IPs, hell to the no. Bearcat (talk) 07:59, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
402. Opt-in, strongly, per Jabberwoch. "It's in beta" is reason enough. And per Wikid77: "People do not know an extra VE backspace deletes the infobox." Good grief! This is a Pandora's Box that should not be by default open to beginners (or anyone, really; I hope the issue is fixed while VE is still in beta.) --Middle 8 (talk) 08:41, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
403. Opt-in as long as it is in beta, Ter-burg (talk) 09:08, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
404. Opt-in until it is the easiest interface being regularly used by experienced editors. Don't hide the opt-in, or make it difficult to opt-in, but recognise that until the best editor-people are using it, it is not the best editor-interface. Paul Beardsell (talk) 10:44, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
405. Opt-in because it's easier for new user. inori989
406. Opt-in BUT only if: (1) it is more then clear how to switch to traditional, most users are familiar with the way used so far (2) there will be added everywhere a button "report a bug", as in many cases the proper way to use it is not obvious and need to be adjusted to common understanding of VE (3) it will be developed further, and there is not possibility of development without feedback from users, even when now it is a horrorware, I don't know how to do some things with VE (4) hence ought to be possible to switch easier between those two VE and traditional (5) in all screens will be added help explaining what options in current moment are aviable, as now it is not obvious (at last for me) (6) traditional way will NOT be removed, it is needed, some things are easier to do traditionally.
407. Opt-in from now until the end of time. Jhw57 (talk) 12:16, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
408. Opt-in. It's still beta. New users are the one who need VE the most, but a unstable version of VE will only make them have a bad experience about wikipedia. Tututudi (talk) 13:44, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
409. Opt-in given current state - proviso but aim for opt-out when more mature. Other future options such as testing on % new users "phased opt-out" most sensible. Widefox; talk 14:08, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
410. Most definitely Opt-in, and please consider changing the wording from "Edit / Edit Source" to something like "Edit / Edit in Visual Mode". Editing the source should always be the default. Visual Editors are always buggy to some extent and should never be seen as anything better than a rough tool for first drafts and the like. Luis Dantas (talk) 14:57, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
411. Opt-in even after the formal release. I fully concur with the goal of VE, however, someone who wants to edit should be held to the responsibility of learning the system including its protocols. clayjar (talk) 15:24, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
412. Opt-in VE should be disabled by default. Having to look up tags as I edit helps me learn more about WikiMedia. In another incarnation I also use Wordpress and Blogger, and I almost always use the HTML editor rather than allow TinyMCE or whatever blogger uses to litter my posts with unwanted formatting and style elements that I can't fix from the WYSIWYG editor. I understand you want new users to be able to add formatted content quickly. Is it worth the overhead to manually check and edit all the content tagged as being created by the Visual Editor? Let's make the VE only available to registered users who have already done some editing. Dreadfullyboring (talk) 15:56, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
413. Opt-in because it's (at most) beta. -- UKoch (talk) 16:07, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
414. Opt-in. Innab (talk) 17:01, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
415. Opt-in. --Markscheider (talk) 17:23, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
416. Opt-in. Unmismoobjetivo (talk) 17:29, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
417. Opt-in; there is no comment I can make that hasn't already been made above. — Scott • talk 17:27, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
418. Opt-in. PeaceLoveHarmony (talk) 18:00, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
419. Opt-in; "principle of least surprise", and I prefer the standard editor. Cgwaldman (talk) 18:28, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
420. Opt-in – this isn't even close to being ready for prime time; the lack of basic functionality like editing tables means that it should never be the default until it's really release-quality, not just meeting some arbitrary deadline. *** Crotalus *** 18:43, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
421. Opt-in. The visual editor is so uncomfortable to use right now. Learning to edit using the source might be a little more daunting and dry at first glance, but you end up learning how to do way more that way. The visual editor feels clunky and unstable. If the visual editor is what I had encountered when I first started using Wikipedia, I might have given up on trying to contribute edits early on. I know it seems backwards, but the visual editor actually seems less immediately comprehendible than the visual editor--and maybe that's the part of me that grew up with phpbb message boards and HTML code, but there you go. T. H. McAllister (talk) 19:20, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
422. Opt-in. Because it is easy and new users tend to mes up with an article. -Polytope4d (talk) 19:39, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
423. Useablity is an important thing, but at the moment VE is frustratingly slow, and the limitations of the beta code visually obvious (check the infobox of any football team for one example). The whole point of VE is to attract technophobic readers into the editing circle, which will in turn give us a more diverse editing base. Unlike many above, I believe that VE will eventually achieve these goals, but rolling out the current code would probably result in the precise opposite: driving away productive anons and putting off toe-in-the-water newbies. The one benefit to rolling the current code out for all IPs and new accounts would be to slow down vandalism, but that would be a pretty shoddy reason to go for this. —WFC— _{FL wishlist} 19:54, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
424. Opt-in; I agree with earlier comments that a not-entirely-functional beta test (labeled as the primary method of editing) is only going to dissuade new editors, at least until the kinks are worked out. Beige.librarian (talk) 20:11, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
425. Opt-in. It will encourage new users to learn the much more powerful wikimarkup Noahk11 (talk) 20:17, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
426. opt-in - partly because it's beta, partly because it could make serious vandalism easier. Heenan73 (talk) 21:40, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
427. Opt-in although it's all been said before. I do think VE would give vandals additional firepower. Second, syntax is more robust, isn't actually that difficult to learn, and is powerful when one has learnt how to use it. People who actually care enough to call themselves editors will go to those lengths. sabine antelope 22:37, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
428. opt-in I do not do a lot of editing, so my vote may not be worth a full tally mark. I primarily just fix the obvious things I see wrong while I am reading Wikipedia. I became aware of the visual editor when I found a horrible edit that looked like a random portion of a complex hyperlink/ref/image line of code was copied and pasted within itself (see my last edit of Statin). I was trying to figure out how such an edit could have happened when I noticed it was tagged with VisualEditor. My opinion is that no tool should be given precedence over an existing and functional tool until it is very mature and voluntarily adopted by the majority. Jbaylor (talk) 01:20, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
429. Strong opt-in for beta, weak middling opt-in for stable. At least until out of beta. I think that we should be more certain of how well this software works before we even consider making it opt-out. Further more, I am of the personal belief that all editors should be at least familiar with editing the source. Both methods can have different advantages. There's a lot of missing features right now, and we don't know which will be easier. Furthermore, I consider source editing both the inherent default, and to be longer lived and more likely to have more power... especially for things like editing sections of infoboxes. Repku (talk) 01:52, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
430. 'Opt-in I'm not liking the ides of beta being used by random accounts. User_talk:hawraalmana 6:21, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
431. Opt-in for Beta with a "edit markup" or "edit visually" as an option. For a quick edit, the visual editor is heavier to work with and it's easy to end up doing two edits in the place of one. --Betasam - Talk 05:36, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
432. Opt-in - way too buggy for new users. Neutrality^talk 05:38, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
433. Opt-in. Still buggy. —Wasell^(T) 08:23, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
434. Opt-in. A 15 second loading delay is below the standard of a minimal viable product. Thom2002 (talk) 11:17, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
435. Opt-in until out of beta. First time I tried it it loaded so slowly I killed my brow