Wikipedia:In the news/Candidates

This page provides a forum for editors to suggest items for inclusion on In the news (ITN), a protected template on the Main Page, as well as the forum for discussion of candidates. This is not the page to report errors in the ITN section on the Main Page—please go to the appropriate section at WP:ERRORS. Archives of past nominations can be found here.

This candidates page is integrated with the daily pages of Portal:Current events. Under each daily section header below is the transcluded Portal:Current events items for that day (with a light green header). Each day's portal page is followed by a subsection for suggestions and discussion.

A blurb is a one sentence summary of the news story. An alternate suggestion for the blurb is called an altblurb, and any more suggestions get labelled alt1, alt2, etc. A blurb needs at least one target article, highlighted in bold; reviewers check the quality of that article and whether it is updated, and whether reliable sources demonstrate the significance of the event. Other articles can also be linked. The Ongoing line is for regularly updated articles which cover events that remain in the news over a longer period of time. RD stands for the "recent deaths" line, and can include any living thing whose death was recently announced. In some cases, recent deaths may need additional explanation as provided by a blurb; this is decided by consensus.

Henry Kissinger Former U.S. secretary of state Henry Kissinger (pictured) dies at the age of 100. All 41 workers trapped in a road tunnel collapse in Uttarakhand, India, are rescued after 17 days underground. In motorcycle racing, Francesco Bagnaia wins the MotoGP World Championship. The novel Prophet Song by Paul Lynch wins the Booker Prize. Somalia is admitted as the eighth member of the East African Community. Ongoing: Israel–Hamas war Myanmar civil war Russian invasion of Ukraine timeline War in Sudan Recent deaths: Sandra Day O'Connor Shane MacGowan Mali Douglas Ahlstedt Charlie Munger Russell Norman view — page history — related changes — edit

How to nominate an item In order to suggest a candidate: Update an article to be linked to from the blurb to include the recent developments, or find an article that has already been updated. Find the correct section below for the date of the event (not the date nominated). Do not add sections for new dates. These are automatically generated (at midnight UTC) by a bot; creating them manually breaks this process. Nominate the blurb for ITN inclusion under the "Suggestions" subheading for the date, emboldening the link in the blurb to the updated article. Use a level 4 header (====) when doing so. Preferably use the template {{ITN candidate}} to nominate the article related to the event in the news. Make sure that you include a reference from a verifiable, reliable secondary source. Press releases are not acceptable. The suggested blurb should be written in simple present tense. Adding an explanation why the event should be posted greatly increases the odds of posting. Please consider alerting editors to the nomination by adding the template {{ITN note}} to the corresponding article's talk page. There are criteria which guide the decision on whether or not to put a particular item on In the news, based largely on the extensiveness of the updated content and the perceived significance of the recent developments. These are listed at WP:ITN. Submissions that do not follow the guidelines at Wikipedia:In the news will not be placed onto the live template. Headers Items that have been posted or pulled from the main page are generally marked with (Posted) or (Pulled) in the item's subject so it is clear they are no longer active. Items can also be marked as (Ready) when the article is both updated and there seems to be a consensus to post. The posting admin, however, should always judge the update and the consensus to post themselves. If you find an entry that you don't feel is ready to post is marked (Ready), you should remove the mark in the header. Voicing an opinion on an item Format your comment to contain "support" or "oppose", and include a rationale for your choice. In particular, address the notability of the event, the quality of the article, and whether it has been updated. Please do... Pick an older item to review near the bottom of this page, before the eligibility runs out and the item scrolls off the page and gets abandoned in the archive, unused and forgotten. Review an item even if it has already been reviewed by another user. Maybe the previous reviewer has missed a problem, or an identified problem has now been fixed. Piling on the list of "support!" votes may also help administrators identify items that are ready for promotion to the ITN template on MainPage. Point out problematic areas in the nominated article and, if appropriate, suggest how to fix them. If you know exactly what to do, by all means, go ahead and fix it as you see fit. Please do not... Add simple "support!" or "oppose!" votes without including your reasons. Similarly, curt replies such as "who?", "meh", or "duh!" are usually not helpful. Instead, explain the reasons why you think the item meets or does not meet the ITN inclusion criteria so a consensus can be reached. Oppose an item solely because the event is only relating to a single country, or failing to relate to one. This applies to a high percentage of the content we post and is generally unproductive. Accuse other editors of supporting, opposing or nominating due to a personal bias (such as ethnocentrism). Conflicts of interest are not handled at ITN. Comment on a story without first reading the relevant article(s). Oppose a recurring item here because you disagree with the recurring items criteria. The criteria can be discussed at the relevant talk page. Use the discussion section of an item as a forum for your own political or personal beliefs. Such comments are irrelevant to the outcome of a nomination and are potentially disruptive. Suggesting updates A posted ITNC item that needs correcting can be addressed in two ways: Simple updates, such as updated death tolls in a disaster, linking issues, spelling or grammar corrections, or otherwise anything that does not change the intent of the blurb should be discussed at WP:ERRORS in the ITN section. More complex updates that involve a major change in the blurb's intent should be discussed as part of the current ITNC nomination.

December 3

Portal:Current events/2023 December 3

December 3, 2023 (2023-12-03) (Sunday) Armed conflicts and attacks Moro conflict At least four people are killed and several others are injured in a bombing during a Catholic Mass at the Mindanao State University in Marawi, Lanao del Sur, Philippines. (The Guardian) Politics and elections 2023 Venezuelan referendum Venezuelans vote in a referendum to measure popular support on the territorial claim to Guayana Esequiba, which is part of Guyana. (BBC News) Health and environment 2023 United Nations Climate Change Conference COP28 President Sultan Al Jaber dismisses proposals for a fossil fuel phase-out, for which he has been accused of climate change denial. (The Guardian)

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December 2

Portal:Current events/2023 December 2

December 2, 2023 (2023-12-02) (Saturday) Armed conflicts and attacks Spillover of the Insurgency in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa Eight people are killed and 26 more injured as unknown gunmen open fire against a bus on the Karakoram Highway near the town of Chilas, Pakistan. (Al Jazeera) Islamic terrorism in Europe, Terrorism in France One person is killed and two others are injured in a stabbing near the Eiffel Tower in Paris, France. The suspect is arrested by police. (Reuters) Disasters and accidents A person is killed after a 7.5 magnitude earthquake strikes off the coast of Mindanao, Philippines. Tsunami warnings are issued for the Philippines and Japan. (AP)

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RD: Faustin Twagiramungu

Article: Faustin Twagiramungu (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): BBC News
Credits:

• Nominated by Jmanlucas (talk · give credit)
• Updated by Connormah (talk · give credit), Kelisi (talk · give credit) and Mohamad Darilin (talk · give credit)

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Former Prime Minister of Rwanda who took power in the wake of the Rwanda Genocide Jmanlucas (talk) 18:41, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Support on notability, and article quality is generally good. --MtPenguinMonster (talk) 22:47, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Notability is not a critera for RD, all that matters is that the subject has an article, which all valid RD nominations have by definition JM (talk) 05:03, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

RD: Maria Martin

Article: Maria Martin (journalist) (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): NPR
Credits:

• Created and nominated by ForsythiaJo (talk · give credit)

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: American journalist, known for her contributions to Latino and Latin American affairs. ForsythiaJo (talk) 00:09, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

• Weak support Article feels a little barebones, but it's well-cited and longer than a stub. The Kip 07:53, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

December 1

Portal:Current events/2023 December 1

December 1, 2023 (2023-12-01) (Friday) Armed conflicts and attacks 2023 Israel–Hamas war 2023 Israel–Hamas ceasefire The ceasefire between Israel and Hamas ends after a deadline expires on the seventh day. Mediator Qatar says that efforts are ongoing to renew the ceasefire and expressed regret over the resumption of Israeli bombardments. (AP) More than 180 Palestinians are killed and hundreds more are injured by Israeli airstrikes on different parts of the Gaza Strip, including the community of Abasan al-Kabira and a home northwest of Gaza City. (Al Jazeera) (AP) Aid is stranded near Egypt’s border with Gaza, with truck drivers saying they expected further delays to a complex delivery process that had briefly speeded up during the weeklong truce. (Al Jazeera) 2023 Israel–Lebanon border conflict Israeli shelling kills a woman and her son in Hula in southern Lebanon. (Al Jazeera) Hundreds of Malawians travel to Israel to work as farm labourers. Kondwani Nankhumwa, leader of the Democratic Progressive Party has questioned the secrecy of the deal amidst the governments awareness of the ongoing war. (Al Jazeera) Iraqi conflict Kurdish–Turkish conflict The Turkish Air Force launches airstrikes on Kurdistan Workers' Party positions in northern Iraq, reportedly destroying 16 of their targets and killing a number of militants. (Reuters) At least eleven civilians are killed in an attack by an armed group in Miqdadiyah, Diyala Governorate, Iraq. No group has claimed responsibility for the attack. (AP) Moro conflict Eleven Dawla Islamiyah and Bangsamoro Islamic Freedom Fighters militants are killed during a raid by the Philippine Army in Datu Hoffer Ampatuan, Maguindanao del Sur. (AP) Myanmar civil war Allied Karenni rebel groups and local PDF forces launch attacks on junta bases in Kawkareik, Karen State. (The Irrawaddy) Somali Civil War The United Nations Security Council (UNSC) lifts an arms embargo on the Somali Armed Forces and the Somali government, while continuing sanctions against the Al-Shabaab jihadist group. (AFP via The Defense Post) War in Sudan The UNSC adopts a resolution to end the mandate of its United Nations Integrated Transition Assistance Mission in Sudan (UNITAMS) by December 3. (Radio Dabanga) Arts and culture For his role in the film Passages, Franz Rogowski is honored by the New York Film Critics Circle as best leading actor of the year. (Der Spiegel) (Variety) Business and economy Sri Lankan economic crisis Sri Lanka's efforts to restructure its debt run into difficulty when an ad hoc group of private creditors object that the official creditors and Sri Lanka itself are being insufficiently transparent about their talks. (Reuters) International relations 2023 Guayana Esequiba crisis The International Court of Justice (ICJ) orders Venezuela to refrain from any action that would alter the status quo in Guayana Esequiba ahead of a referendum on its rights to the disputed territory, but does not forbid Venezuela from going ahead with the referendum as Guyana requested. (Reuters) Child abductions in the Russo-Ukrainian War The International Committee of the Red Cross suspends the Belarus Red Cross after its Secretary General Dzmitry Shautsou refuses to resign following statements that the organization was involved in bringing Ukrainian children to Belarus for health improvement purposes. (AP) (Nasha Niva) Territorial disputes in the South China Sea The Philippine Coast Guard establishes a surveillance station on the disputed Thitu Island in the South China Sea. (AP) Law and crime A serial killer is suspected of having fatally shot three homeless men over the past week in Los Angeles, California, United States. (ABC News) Politics and elections 118th United States Congress George Santos is expelled from the United States House of Representatives over criminal corruption charges and accusations of misspending campaign money. (Reuters) 2023 Malagasy presidential election Madagascar's supreme court confirms Andry Rajoelina's election as president after dismissing several challenges against the provisional results. (Reuters) Science and technology South Korea launches its first military reconnaissance satellite from the Vandenberg Space Force Base in California, United States, carried by a SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket. (AFP via SCMP)

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RD: Bob Albright

Article: Bob Albright (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): AL.com
Credits:

• Created and nominated by Kafoxe (talk · give credit)

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Former Alabama state legislator. Died November 27, reported in media on December 1. Kafoxe (talk) 06:25, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

• Support Article appears to be well-cited and holistic, good work. Curbon7 (talk) 18:49, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

  As an aside, more sources can likely be found on Newspapers.com, which is available through WP:The Wikipedia Library. Curbon7 (talk) 18:51, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Thank you, I was not aware of this resource, as I'd been relying on ones that were publicly available online, outside of the database. I've also corrected his time of tenure, as AL.com appears to have been mistaken. Kafoxe (talk) 19:58, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

• Support sufficiently sourced for posting. Polyamorph (talk) 18:54, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

RD: Brigit Forsyth

Article: Brigit Forsyth (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): BBC Guardian
Credits:

• Updated and nominated by Black Kite (talk · give credit)

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

• British actress, known for Whatever Happened to the Likely Lads? and multiple other TV/film/stage work. Fairly short, but cited. Black Kite (talk) 09:53, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
• Comment: The infobox currently gives her birth name as "Brigit Dorothea Connell", but I can find no source for that. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:44, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

• Whilst I've no reason to doubt it, nor can I, so I've removed it. Black Kite (talk) 17:58, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

  Ok. But I found a couple of things - see Talk page. A bit baffling. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:49, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

• Yeah ... and then there's this interview... Black Kite (talk) 23:51, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

  Place of birth now resolved. Likely birth name has been removed. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:14, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

RD: John Byrne

Article: John Byrne (playwright) (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Guardian
Credits:

• Nominated by Yorkshiresky (talk · give credit)
• Updated by Johnbod (talk · give credit) and Sahaib (talk · give credit)

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Noted Scottish artist and playwright, could do with a few citations. yorkshiresky (talk) 19:54, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose per nom, article is orange-tagged. The Kip 22:17, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
  • Support, article quality issues have been fixed. The Kip 07:55, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
• Comment Been updated, think issues have been addressed. yorkshiresky (talk) 14:43, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

  There's a single CN tag in the "Writer" table, but rest of the article's fine. Switching my vote. The Kip 07:55, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

RD: Badar uz Zaman

Article: Badar uz Zaman (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Radio Pk
Credits:

• Nominated by Fahads1982 (talk · give credit)

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

 Fahads1982 (talk) 17:36, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose Fairly significant amount of unsourced content. The Kip 22:16, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

(Closed) George Santos expelled from US Congress

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Article: George Santos (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ George Santos is expelled from the United States House of Representatives. (Post)
News source(s): BBC
Credits:

• Nominated by 331dot (talk · give credit)

Only the sixth time in history someone has been kicked out of the House(and three of those were due to the Civil War) and the first since 2002. 331dot (talk) 16:36, 1 December 2023 (UTC) We also have a great article to post. 331dot (talk) 17:09, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Support Very rare evert QuarioQuario54321 (talk) 16:42, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose "Sixth time..." already indicates this is not exceptional, and given the weak consensus for the outing of McCarthy from House Speaker, I don't think getting this far into US politics is a good idea. --Masem (t) 16:43, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

  It's not six times this week, it's six times since 1787, and three of those were on one occasion(the Civil War) so really it's only four times. 331dot (talk) 16:44, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

  Happy to support expulsions from other national legislative bodies, too. 331dot (talk) 16:46, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

  As mentioned, it's the sixth time in history, across a span of years that exceeds the duration of pretty much every legislature on the planet besides the UK's Parliament. It's only the third time in the past 160 years. If we wanted to go with a Eurocentric view comparison here, this would be equivalent to something that'd just not been done since WW2 happening again. - Nottheking (talk) 20:50, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

• In a different version of ITN, this would be a great nom. We should be posting articles that have substantial or interesting updates due to recent events, and this one has that in spades. This guy has been in office for less than a year and has a longer article than Nancy Pelosi (probably). GreatCaesarsGhost 16:52, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose so what? Nor does it seem to affect legislative normalcy or party domains. I suppose it is highly advisable that we look at the parliamentary activity (and its history) of other countries. Open the vision. _-_Alsor (talk) 16:54, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

  "So what?" could be applied to most news stories we blurb. PrecariousWorlds (talk) 18:41, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

• Support - it's not the US's fault that all the breaking news is happening here this week. Rare event, great article, etc. Have we ever posted the expulsion of a member of any legislature? --Rockstone^{Send me a message!} 16:54, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

  Expulsion of members of legislatures is not as rare as you might think. If it has not been posted, it is because the editors have made the previous exercise of thinking that it is not significant. _-_Alsor (talk) 17:00, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

  Can you list some other expulsions? It's rare in the US. 331dot (talk) 17:02, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

  The senate has expelled 15 members. However, 14 were during the Civil War and 1 was in 1797 for treason/conspiracy. Noah, AA^Talk 17:04, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

  Thank you, but I was wondering about expulsions in other legislative bodies(to respond to the assertion that this isn't a rare thing) 331dot (talk) 17:08, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

  In fairness, we kind of have to exclude those expelled during the Civil War. That was both some 160 years ago, and during a very different environment. This would be analogous to saying something happening in a European country is unusual just because it happened a number of times during World War 2. We're talking about an entirely different period of history. - Nottheking (talk) 21:15, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

  In Spain: Laura Borràs, Alberto Rodríguez Rodríguez, Oriol Junqueras and others Catalan independence leaders.

  In Argentina: Angel Luque, Varela Cid and Ancari de Godoy.

  In Ukraine: Serhiy Vlasenko.

  In Russia: Gennady Gudkov.

  In the UK: Horatio Bottomley, Peter Baker, Garry Allighan.

  To give a few examples. _-_Alsor (talk) 17:17, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

  I would argue that Have we ever posted the expulsion of a member of any legislature? actually works against inclusion on ITN. I don't think we have before, and I don't think we should (rationale below in my Oppose vote). Bremps... 17:26, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

  Agree. _-_Alsor (talk) 17:48, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose Certainly an exceptional event, but one that I feel doesn't have too much of an impact. Kevin McCarthy being ousted as Speaker just barely made ITN, and that was an even more unprecedented event. PolarManne (talk) 16:55, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose Domestic political scandals below the level of a head of state/government are not ITN material. I can't remember the last time (if ever) we posted anything like this. Crooked pols exist all over the world. -Ad Orientem (talk) 16:58, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose Criminal expelled from congress... little impact on its functioning and not really that important of an event. This wouldn't be considered for any other country.

Noah, AA^Talk 16:59, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

I would. And this does have an impact on functioning, reducing the already narrow GOP majority by one. 331dot (talk) 17:01, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

This is the first time that someone has been expelled who has not been yet convicted of a crime. He can't even be legally called a criminal yet.

FictiousLibrarian (talk). 20:37, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

@FictiousLibrarian: He accepted a plea deal in Brazil for check fraud.

Noah, AA^Talk 21:12, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose - this is not really that noteworthy in my opinion, basically just political trivia. - Indefensible (talk) 17:06, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
• Support, agreeing with 331dot. -- Tavix ^(talk) 17:09, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose - We are confusing the issue by suggesting that this has earth-shattering political significance on the basis that the last such expulsion came during the Civil War. Rather, this was someone who was federally indicted for fraud and refused to resign as most other politicians would normally do in this scenario. Nixon's impeachment would have been significant whether or not he resigned or stayed until the bitter end, just because of how massive the fundamentals of the case were. Contrariwise, we would not be talking about this if Santos had simply resigned. Indefensible is right in that this is trivia. _{Duly signed,} ⛵ WaltClipper -(talk) 17:11, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
• Support per 331dot. This is historic and making global headlines, and as others have mentioned, we have a great article on this topic and this is the best moment to feature it. Davey2116 (talk) 17:20, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
• Support This is the second Congressional expulsion of the 21st century. Not to mention one of 3 representatives who have been expelled on anything else than insurrection during the civil war. On top of the fact that the media is clearly covering this story extensively, this expulsion will set a new precedent in the operation of the United States House of Representatives. How this event will impact the house in the long term remains to be seen, regardless we are witnessing history unfold before our eyes. I strongly support this article's nomination FictiousLibrarian (talk). 20:35, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

  FictiousLibrarian, Traficant was expelled in 2002. Curbon7 (talk) 21:28, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose What would be the wider significance of this event? He is not a national leader. Removal of Kevin McCarthy as Speaker of the House was debatable, as he held a major position and because it was the first time it ever happened. Santos, on the other hand, is one representative out of more than 400 and is not the first congressperson to be expelled. Bremps... 17:24, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Weak Support - Notability is a bit iffy but I could get behind putting it up due to how rare this event is and how much coverage it has generated. PrecariousWorlds (talk) 18:32, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose I knew this was going to get nominated. A member of a legislative body getting expelled does not mean its life changing. It did not have a huge impact in the House, and isn't considerate for other countries outside of the U.S.

TomMasterReal^TALK 19:06, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Weak Support This is a highly unprecedented move. This marks a very unusual threshold (as I've seen others mention) as this is the first time ever (out of thousands upon thousands of people to serve in Congress) person to be expelled for any reason other than "they directly participated in a rebellion against the Union" or "they were convicted of a felony but refused to resign." This will certainly have serious implications for the USA as a whole (which is sufficient reason for ITN: almost all news posted in ITN only directly impacts a single country, and isn't inherently an international event) but as of yet this total effect is unclear. It's understandable to note that this doesn't hold up to the standard for level of impact of, say, the prior posting of Henry Kissinger, as Kissinger was a truly international figure that had a greater impact on multiple countries than any of their respective heads of government they've had since.

At the minimum, this clearly will appear in the past as an "OTD" item, but I can see there being legitimate arguments that it doesn't meet the threshold for ITN. (mostly centered around how the greater impact outside of the GOP is unclear, and that such claims to notability might be construed as speculation) Unfortunately, whenever a news primarily focused on US national politics shows up, the !votes are cluttered with a number that directly ignore the rules for voting, but do seem to routinely get counted all the same. - Nottheking (talk) 21:07, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

He is has not been convicted of a crime in the United States. FictiousLibrarian (talk). 22:43, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose per above and no offence, but "global news" is not a synonym for "news in the Western world." —M3ATH (Moazfargal · Talk) 17:48, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Moazfargal We can only consider what is nominated. Very happy to consider non-Western nominations. That's not a reason to exclude nominations. 331dot (talk) 18:12, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

@331dot: I think I was misunderstood. I was referring to some comments that described this as global news, so I said that being in the news in the West doesn't make something global news. —M3ATH (Moazfargal · Talk) 18:44, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

It has made global news though. The ascension of Somalia to the EAC or the India tunnel collapse were region-specific too, but they got in PrecariousWorlds (talk) 20:21, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose The only reason I can think to post the expulsion of a member of a legislature was if it tipped the voting balance from one party to another, and even then I'd be dubious. Black Kite (talk) 18:15, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

• Support It is far harder to expel someone from either house of the U.S. Congress due to the required two-thirds supermajority than it is from the UK or Canadian House of Commons (in the latter, from what I've read, only a majority is necessary). Santos is the first member since the Civil War to be expelled in the absence of a criminal conviction, breaking a long custom that only members who refused to resign after being convicted should be expelled. This event marks a crossing of the Godzilla Threshold; it is more of a black swan than people here are giving it credit for.

  And as for it being U.S.-centric, the story has gotten a lot of traction in Brazil (for obvious reasons), and I've seen in my news feed plenty of British coverage as well. Daniel Case (talk) 18:20, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

  We have a chronic allergy to anything to do with Domestic US Affairs. But next week we'll happily post the Ecuadorian Netball Tournament or whatever PrecariousWorlds (talk) 18:37, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

  This is not us.wiki, this is en.wiki. We look to a global aspects, not just what may be important users from one country. Masem (t) 18:54, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

  They're as "domestic" as any other country's affairs. Since you're taking Ecuador as an example, would you post the removal of a congressperson from Ecuador? (which happened two years ago) ChaotıċEnby(t · c) 19:01, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

  If it had wide impacts, yes. -- Rockstone^{Send me a message!} 19:27, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

  In this case it doesn't really have wide impact, as the Republicans still have a majority. It's just very talked about, but ITN standards and journalistic standards don't fully overlap. ChaotıċEnby(t · c) 19:29, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose, we are not posting stuff about individual congresspeople. The removal of McCarthy from speaker could've been ITN-worthy, the removal of a single congressperson certainly isn't. ChaotıċEnby(t · c) 18:57, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose; this is not particularly consequential even in the US outside of his district, as it does not materially change the balance of power, and rarity in and of itself is not newsworthy. For the record, I would oppose posting the expulsion of a member of any national legislature unless there were other circumstances making it exceptionally newsworthy. Vanamonde (Talk) 19:13, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose I don't think we posted Johnson's election as Speaker, which is more significant as a news story. This doesn't change a whole lot even within the U.S. as others have said. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 19:51, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

  Under the long-running precedent, selection of a Speaker (or even that of a Prime Minister in Westminster Systems) isn't considered a landmark, notable event, mostly because their formal selection is usually tied to a prior event (e.g, the general election) and thus their eventually ascension to premiership is seen as inevitable; that, for instance, the UK has a new PM or the USA has a new Speaker upon reconvening after an election isn't major news; it was expected.

  In the case of Johnson, this was somewhat unique because it'd taken multiple ballots (and candidates) for one to emerge, but the outcome itself was ultimately predictable: "Republican majority elects Republican speaker on party-line basis." Had something particularly unusual happened (e.g, the House elected a Speaker that wasn't a sitting GOP member) that would've warranted its own event. But as it was, it was the closure of a story already posted to ITN: the ouster of McCarthy & "interregnum" that followed. - Nottheking (talk) 21:13, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose; per presidentman. The election of a Speaker is more significant than the expulsion of a regular representative. Maj. Warden (talk) 20:30, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose - definitely a rare event, but not unprecedented. The impact is pretty narrow, even though his seat will probably flip and narrow the already narrow republican majority.--estar8806 (talk) ★ 20:31, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
• Weak Oppose - Rare event? Yes. Internal U.S. politics, yes. CoatCheck (talk) 20:33, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
• Suggest Close We are deep into WP:SNOW territory here. No need for the pile-on to continue. -Ad Orientem (talk) 20:39, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose - rare but not all that important. One of 435 districts in the US does not have a representative in one of two legislative chambers. nableezy - 20:42, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

  That's not what the story's about. After all, no one has been proposing blurbs for the deaths or resignation of unknown incumbent... Those are very common. However, to expel one is an extremely strong move that is strictly political; it's the equivalent to impeachment & removal from office. That is the actual topic being discussed; to direct the argument against something else would be something other than a move in good faith. - Nottheking (talk) 20:56, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

  Yes, and that is rare, but it remains not that important, with the sum total of effect being one of 435 districts in the US does not have a representative in one of two legislative chambers. nableezy - 22:37, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

• Support but suggest closure as it's clear that consensus will not develop This post was made by orbitalbuzzsaw gang (talk) 20:57, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Concur with suggest close I already voted further above, but my count put it at something like 9 support vs. 12 oppose, (once excluding zero/invalid rationale votes, such as "only affects the USA") which is far short of a "consensus." - Nottheking (talk) 21:21, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

WP:NOTAVOTE. Curbon7 (talk) 21:29, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose Certainly interesting, but at the end of the day the removal of a backbencher who was already persona non grata is minor and insignificant. Curbon7 (talk) 21:32, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose Per above, agree with Curbon7, his impact is confined to at-most a national scale, he's essentially a backbencher and insignificant in the broader scope. Ornithoptera (talk) 21:56, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose per Curbon. Disgraced domestic politician with limited influence as a representative anyways, doesn't quite have the reach for ITN notability. The Kip 22:13, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Posted RD): Sandra Day O'Connor

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Article: Sandra Day O'Connor (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination
Blurb:  Former U.S. Supreme Court justice Sandra Day O'Connor (pictured) dies at the age of 93. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ First female U.S. Supreme Court justice Sandra Day O'Connor (pictured) dies at the age of 93.
News source(s): CNBC
Credits:

• Nominated by Ad Orientem (talk · give credit)
• Updated by DBlack2025 (talk · give credit) and Sunshineisles2 (talk · give credit)

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Ad Orientem (talk) 15:06, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Strong Support. Incredible woman, RIP. GuardianH (talk) 18:31, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

First woman appointed to the US Supreme Court. This news is just breaking so updating is needed. -Ad Orientem (talk) 15:06, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Clarifying My nomination is for RD. I oppose a blurb. She was an important person, but not that important. -Ad Orientem (talk) 15:54, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

• Support blurb Beat me to it. Perhaps some things need updating but is still a lengthy and well-sourced article. Jmanlucas (talk) 15:13, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

  I don't think so. We shouldn't be blurbing every SCOTUS member death, and while we did blurb RBG, she had far more influence (as well as was still sitting). While O'Connor is notable for being the first women on the court and having her hand in a few key decisions, her influence wasn't as strong as RBG. Masem (t) 15:15, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

  I don't think that's true, as she was at the ideological center of the Court and would be the one seeking compromise, whereas RBG being firmly on the left was frequently in the minority. Pawnkingthree (talk) 15:36, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

  I'm looking beyond just their role as a Justice (as one can argue for any Justice that they would be important in their role on the Court, either way, but again, we should not be trying to blurb all Justices). RGB was far more influential outside of the Court. Masem (t) 16:33, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

  I think O'Connor was important both as a Justice and as a major figure in U.S. women's rights. Her decision striking down single-sex admissions in Mississippi University for Women v Hogan was a critical step in Equal Protection law. (And it was the basis for RBG's more famous, but not actually legally groundbreaking, opinion striking down single-sex admissions at VMI, United States v Virginia.) O'Connor was on TIME Magazine's list of the 25 most powerful women of the 20th Century. She was not just a Supreme Court justice, she was also an icon. RBG (to her personal surprise) became a celebrity in her last few years because some law students called her the Notorious RBG, but pre-internet female law students turned out in droves to hear O'Connor. ALKinNYC (talk) 21:31, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

  While the circumstances of RBG's death were more notable, I’d say that O'Connor was more notable as a justice since she was the 1st woman on the Supreme Court & the swing vote in important cases. Blaylockjam10 (talk) 23:54, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

  There is no signficant article update to prompt such a feature. No section on her funeral or anything like that, nothing for us to show off. ~Maplestrip/Mable (chat) 15:24, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

  I don't think it's typical to enter an RD as a blurb prior to the funeral. That being said, there are heavy edits being made and it could possibly make sense to wait a few hours for this one. I also believe she was immensely influential, paving the way for justices such as Ginsburg, Kagan, Sotomayor, Barrett, and Jackson. Jmanlucas (talk) 15:44, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose on quality Not a lot but a handful of CNs and uncited statements at ends of paras. Also would be nice to see the proseline-type writing style fixed in the latter part of the article but that shouldn't stop posting RD. --Masem (t) 15:13, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
• Comment Article has been updated with news on her death.--Sunshineisles2 (talk) 15:16, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
• RD only. I agree with Masem that she was not quite as influential as RBG. 331dot (talk) 15:35, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
• Quilty issues, but Support RD only. Once fixed, she is a perfect candidate for an RD. I'd needed convinced for blurb, other than be just the first woman on Supreme Court. TheCorriynial (talk) 15:45, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose blurb Let's not propose blurbs to American personalities for the simple fact of being American. There are almost 200 supreme courts in the world with their respective first female members. _-_Alsor (talk) 16:18, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

  Like -Ad Orientem (talk) 16:34, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

  no one brought up this person's nationality as justification for a blurb. please try to contribute to the consensus with NPOV Belugsump (talk) 08:18, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

• Support RD The remaining uncited statements are minimal (given the article length) and non-controversial. I oppose the blurb; while I typically endorse some US bias in blurbs due to the influence of American culture and politics worldwide, there is little evidence of that here. GreatCaesarsGhost 16:45, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
• Support RD As much as my inner Arizonan wants a blurb, I have to concede that being the first woman on SCOTUS doesn't warrant one. We don't need two blurbs in a row being American politicians dying of old age. PolarManne (talk) 17:00, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose blurb - if you look at her impact compared to Kissinger's, they are probably in the same ballpark, or she might even be ahead. Simply raising the bar higher prevents contradictory outcomes. - Indefensible (talk) 17:04, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

  I don't think they are comparable. She was a run of the mill Supreme Court justice whose principle claim to fame was being the first woman on the court. Kissinger fundamentally changed the course of world history (for good and ill). He was the most consequential Sec. of State in US history and one of the most important foreign ministers in world history. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:19, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

  I think you underrate O'Connor and overrate Kissinger. O'Connor was the pivotal vote on a number of issues and was in office for over 2 decades while Kissinger was only SoS for 4 years. - Indefensible (talk) 19:55, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

  Those four years had a lot of impact that we are still feeling to this day, especially in the Middle East and in particular Israel. _{Duly signed,} ⛵ WaltClipper -(talk) 20:58, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

  You can't really just compare the offices held. Kissinger wasn't your average Secretary of State, just like RBG wasn't your average Justice. For O'Connor, while being the first woman on the court was an achievement, I don't think she rises to the same level. ChaotıċEnby(t · c) 19:07, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

• Support RD, she was important but not enough for a blurb. QuicoleJR (talk) 19:04, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
• Support RD, weak oppose blurb The article has 2 CN tags, which should be rectified first, but it's in pretty good shape otherwise. We didn't blurb Dianne Feinstein, and I think O'Connor's impact is similar to hers. ❤HistoryTheorist❤ 19:09, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
• Support RD Article looks good enough. Weak support blurb Since she was the first female Supreme Court justice in the country's history. I'd support a blurb for a first female justice on any supreme court/high court of any nation. Her tenure also oversaw some landmark decisions as well. --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 19:46, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
• Strong support RD and blurb O'Connor opened the highest court in the United States to women, a truly enormous event in one of the most influential nations in the world, at a time when women's roles were extremely limited, both in the U.S. and globally. It was a huge deal. If you question whether this is worthy of international coverage, note that her death is currently on the front pages of El Pais, The Guardian, Le Monde, etc. That her death comes near another high-profile civil servant should be irrelevant. Girona7 (talk) 20:16, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
• Support RD, Oppose blurb I don't think this rises to the level of a blurb. Johndavies837 (talk) 20:22, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
• Support blurb - First of all, article looks good to go. The fact that O'Connor was the first woman on the Supreme Court and had several notable opinions during her tenure (namely Planned Parenthood v. Casey, among others) would lead me to believe she had enough long-term significance to warrant a blurb.--estar8806 (talk) ★ 20:28, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
• Strong support and blurb – First woman on the highest court in the USA. I second what User:Girona7 wrote above. Missvain (talk) 20:33, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
• Support blurb - Article is good to go, and I think that her being the first women on the Supreme Court makes it very noteworthy, like what User:Girona7 wrote. Maj. Warden (talk) 20:53, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose blurb - This does not rise to the level of importance we should expect to see for a blurb. _{Duly signed,} ⛵ WaltClipper -(talk) 20:56, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
• oppose blurb, support rd - not so widely covered as a death to merit a blurb imo. think the article fine at this point too. nableezy - 21:03, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
• Support RD, Oppose Blurb - Reviewed article, and it looks to be in great shape. While she was a significant figure, she wasn't very transformative in her field (a threshold that "first woman" falls short of) which is generally the requirement for a an ITN blurb for a death after leaving said office. (dying in office is unusual, and much more likely can merit a blurb, as the death itself has serious ramifications, as was the case for Justice Ginsberg in 2020) As it stands, definitely doesn't merit a blurb, but does seem ready to speedily post to RD: a good job to everyone who worked to ensure the high quality of the article! - Nottheking (talk) 21:26, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
• Support RD, Oppose Blurb, per above. Ornithoptera (talk) 21:58, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
• Removing ready tag There's still at least one CN, one unsourced paragraph, and the list of the notable decisions she was involved needs sourcing as well. --Masem (t) 22:05, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
• Support RD, oppose blurb per all above. The Kip 22:12, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose blurb, support RD per above consensus and my general policy of opposing all RDB This post was made by orbitalbuzzsaw gang (talk) 22:44, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
• Support RD, Oppose Blurb, article meets standards, old woman dies. JM (talk) 00:15, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
• Support RD, neutral on blurb but I've added an altblurb that highlights her significance in case this somehow makes the blurb, although this would definitely make a weak DYK when/if it becomes a GA. @Admins willing to post ITN: snowball's chance in hell of failing RD, could we post that rn? Aaron Liu (talk) 00:24, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

  I for one don't like posting bios where the date of birth is uncited. Schwede66 00:37, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

  @Schwede66 I have cited the DoB. Sunshineisles2 (talk) 00:44, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

  Thanks. I was beaten to posting this. Schwede66 00:52, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

• She's fabulous, her story was very inspirational personally for me and other young women, but "first woman on SCOTUS" probably doesn't raise her to the level of global significance needed for a blurb. Of course support RD once any quality issues are addressed, that should go without saying. Valereee (talk) 00:31, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
• Posted RD It looks good enough for RD, though it could use improvement with a few more citations and rewriting "Activities and memberships" to be less PROSELINE. – Muboshgu (talk) 00:47, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

  If it needs "a few more citations" it wasn't ready to be posted. As I pointed out, the section about the major decisions she was involved in is mostly unsourced, and that really should be sourced. Masem (t) 01:42, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

• Support RD, neutral on blurb—The thing that makes the passing of Sandra Day O'Connor different from that of Ruth Bader Ginsburg is the fact that RBG died while she was still a sitting justice, at a time when her absence from SCOTUS would effectively ensure a conservative supermajority. SDOC died of old age 18 years after she retired from the bench; it is far less consequential. On the other hand, there is something to be said for being the first woman to ever serve on the most powerful court in the most powerful country. For this reason, I can't outright oppose a blurb. Kurtis ^(talk) 01:26, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose blurb I can't imagine we would ever blurb the death of a judge from any other country in the world (except in situations where 'death is the story'). I don't see the need to blurb this person just because they are an American judge. Chrisclear (talk) 01:49, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
• Support blurb Ruth Bader Ginsburg got a blurb. I don't see why O'Connor shouldn't have one either. 159.118.77.237 (talk) 03:32, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

• Whether O'Connor was trailblazing aside, Ginsburg's death was unexpected and severely impacted the balance of power in the court. --Rockstone^{Send me a message!} 04:06, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose blurb The first woman on the US Supreme Court, yes, involved in some important decisions as such, yes. But beyond this (and the major siginificance being attributed to the "first" aspect) I am not seeing anything convincing enough to blurb especially when this position was held more than a decade and a half ago. Gotitbro (talk) 04:44, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

November 30

Portal:Current events/2023 November 30

November 30, 2023 (2023-11-30) (Thursday) Armed conflicts and attacks 2023 Israel–Hamas war 2023 Givat Shaul shooting Three Israeli civilians are killed and sixteen are injured in a mass shooting in the Givat Shaul neighborhood of Jerusalem. Two Palestinian gunmen are shot and killed by security forces. An armed civilian is mistaken for an attacker and is also shot, later dying in a hospital. Hamas reportedly claims responsibility for the attack. (The Times of Israel) (Haaretz) 2023 Israel–Hamas ceasefire A deal is reached to extend the ceasefire for at least one more day, after the ceasefire had been due to expire. (The Times of Israel) Spanish Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez has expressed doubts that Israel is abiding by international law in the war, due to the high number of civilian casualties and video footage of growing numbers of children dying. (Al Jazeera) United States Secretary of State Antony Blinken steps up calls for Israel to comply with international law and protect civilians during its military operations in southern Gaza, while reaffirming US support. (Al Jazeera) Russian invasion of Ukraine Attacks in Russia during the Russian invasion of Ukraine Ukraine says its special forces bombed a freight train as it was passing through the Severomuysky Tunnel in Buryatia, Russia. Russia's Investigative Committee acknowledges an explosion and fire inside the tunnel, and says that a preliminary probe is underway to determine the cause. (Reuters) Gunfire breaks out between the National Guard of Guinea-Bissau and the Presidential Guard after the National Guard frees two ministers from the opposition PAIGC from police custody. (BBC) (Al Jazeera) Business and economy Russian grain exports Somalia receives 25,000 tons of grain as humanitarian aid from Russia. The humanitarian assistance is part of an agreement announced at the 2023 Russia–Africa Summit to provide food assistance to African nations. (Anadolu) The insolvency of the Austrian Signa Holding leads to the insolvency of the German sporting goods retailer SportScheck. (rbb24) Disasters and incidents At least 13 people are killed in a fire at a hostel in Almaty, Kazakhstan, with preliminary reports indicating carbon monoxide poisoning as the cause of death. (AFP via France 24) Health and environment 2023 United Nations Climate Change Conference The United Nations Climate Change conference opens in Dubai, United Arab Emirates, with an agreement to provide funding to underdeveloped countries that are most at risk from the effects of climate change. (The Guardian) International relations Foreign relations of Argentina Incoming Foreign Minister Diana Mondino announces that Argentina will not join the BRICS group of nations, as it already has members of the BRICS bloc as the country's primary trading partners. (MyInd Markets) Law and crime LGBT rights in Russia The Supreme Court of Russia bans the LGBT movement, labelling participants as extremists. (Reuters) Politics and elections 2023–24 Bhutanese National Assembly election Citizens of Bhutan vote in the preliminary round of elections to elect members of the National Assembly. (Reuters) Salvadoran President Nayib Bukele is granted a leave of absence prior to the 2024 general election and is succeeded by his private secretary Claudia Rodríguez de Guevara as acting president. (La Prensa Gráfica)

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(Closed) Botticelli's recovered painting

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Article: Madonna delle Grazie (Botticelli) (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ The missing painting Madonna delle Grazie by Sandro Botticelli is recovered in Italy. (Post)
News source(s): CNN, Guardian, etc
Credits:

• Updated and nominated by Brandmeister (talk · give credit)
• Created by TulsaPoliticsFan (talk · give credit)

Article updated

While lost paintings do occasionally pop up, this, being Botticelli's, looks particularly noteworthy. Brandmeister^talk 15:14, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

• Our article doesn't even say it was missing. Would be an embarrassing feature... Also how did we get an image of the painting in 2022 if it had been missing for fifty thirty years? ~Maplestrip/Mable (chat) 15:27, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
  • Actually quite simple. Scan/photo of a image in an old book/magazine. Or at least cropping from a news photo. Or taking a picture during the recovery, depends on luck. Brandmeister^talk 15:56, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
• Comment The article is kinda stubby and there is not much detail about what happened. -Ad Orientem (talk) 15:28, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose It would be different if this was like a major theft and has since been resolved, but this reads more like it simply got lost in a shuffle in protecting art from the earthquake in 1984. Its not the world's greatest mystery being solved here. --Masem (t) 15:32, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose on Significance, the recovery of art is usually not ITN-worthy, and it's not like this was some important or notable missing painting. Editor 5426387 (talk) 15:45, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

oppose - per above PrecariousWorlds (talk) 16:27, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose not that significant, but it’s an interesting nom. This painting is not one of Botticelli's most recognized works, nor is its "disappearance" historical, since it was due to a sale. _-_Alsor (talk) 16:56, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose I do not find this significant enough to post. QuicoleJR (talk) 20:08, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

LGBT rights in Russia

Article: LGBT rights in Russia (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ In a setback for LGBT rights in Russia, the country's Supreme Court bans the "LGBT movement" as "extremist". (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ In a setback for LGBT rights in Russia, the country's Supreme Court bans the "LGBT movement".
Alternative blurb II: ​ Russia's Supreme Court is condemned by LGBT rights supporters for banning the "LGBT movement".
Alternative blurb III: ​ In Russia, the country's Supreme Court bans the "LGBT movement".
Alternative blurb IV: ​ The Russian Supreme Court outlaws the "international LGBT movement" as "extremist".
News source(s): Reuters
Credits:

• Nominated by Chaotic Enby (talk · give credit)
• Updated by Sentries (talk · give credit) and Revangarde568 (talk · give credit)

Blurb is a bit convoluted in order to fit the primary article, open to rephrasing. ChaotıċEnby(t · c) 01:32, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

• Support a blurb of some kind, but "setback" might not be the appropriate word to use, since it is somewhat non-neutral. Maybe something closer to "Russia's supreme court is condemned by LGBT rights supporters for banning the LGBT movement." -- Rockstone^{Send me a message!} 01:53, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
• Support Pretty big setback for the LGBT community, considering this is coming from one of the most influential countries on the planet - although a different blurb would be better per Rockstone. qw3rty 01:57, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose solely on article quality. Once the article is up to scratch (it has not been updated and referencing is seriously subpar) I would support alt3 as factual and to the point w/o any editorializing. -Ad Orientem (talk) 02:03, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
• Support Considering that this genuinely might lead to the banning of any LGBT persons, this is a massive deal as countries around it may follow. Lukt64 (talk) 02:24, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Objectively, I think this news story meets the customary criteria for a blurb. However, Wikipedia, and ITN more specifically are not here to right great wrongs. And article quality is frankly nowhere near acceptable for posting. -Ad Orientem (talk) 02:46, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose solely on quality as target article is orange-tagged. Definitely notable enough, though - it’s not just the banning of a single organization, but the entire movement. Rather disturbing news, honestly. The Kip 03:11, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

• Neutral Emperor Putin has already effectively banned the LGBT movement for years. He classified the flag and references as pornographic material and has had people arrested. He also banned same sex marriage via the constitutional amendment he pushed through. Hard to see how this is any different.

Noah, AA^Talk 03:28, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose on quality - besides the CN, the summary table should have sources (which ought to reuse what's already present) --Masem (t) 03:42, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
• Support on notability, not ready on quality per Ad Orientem. Best case scenario is they've outlawed all public expression supportive of LGBT rights, worst case scenario is they've effectively outlawed being LGBT in public, and either of those are notable. All we know as a matter of fact is that the Supreme Court outlawed "the international LGBT movement". why does that terminology sound so familiar?  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 04:06, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

  Adding that my preference is for Altblurb IV - my !vote was originally going to have paragraphs of ramblings about how I don't like using the term "the LGBT movement" in Wikivoice and how that does not adequately tell the reader what actually got banned for a number of fairly obvious reasons, "the LGBT movement" is not an entity or organization that can be dissolved by a legal ruling, it is a category of person and those who are supportive of said people, hence why even the target article LGBT movement is actually named LGBT movements plural. But I got into edit conflict after edit conflict and lost the original ramblings, and at the time no other users had expressed issue with the language so I was worried I'd just look like a crazy nitpicker anyways. Thankfully, multiple other editors have said what I wanted to say (in much fewer words than I was going to use) and someone even offered up a satisfactory altblurb.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 13:03, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

  No you're right that the language wasn't adequate, wasn't sure how to phrase it but having the claim in quotes is much better indeed. ChaotıċEnby(t · c) 19:12, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Support on the basis of notability, but I think the blurbs currently proposed are unclear. I propose the following alternate blurb: Russian Supreme Court outlaws the "international LGBT movement" as "extremist". --MtPenguinMonster (talk) 06:55, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

I added this proposal as Alt 4. JM (talk) 07:53, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

• Support alt 3 since the other three blurbs are not neutral. MtPenguinMonster's proposed blurb is also OK. Banedon (talk) 07:10, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose on quality, way too many CN tags, and as far as I can tell there's only one line of update for this event, let alone having its own section. However if this ends up getting posted, if there ends up being a consensus to post, i would support Alt 4 because the first 2 blurbs are not NPOV, the 2nd altblurb is not the main story, and Alt3 definitely has the wrong bolded words (should be "bans" that is bolded, not "LGBT movement"). JM (talk) 07:46, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose any blurb which uncritically refers to "the LGBT movement". To the extent the phrase means anything (our wikilink redirects to the crucially more accurate LGBT movements), it is an unquestioning repeating of the conspiracist rhetoric used by the justice department, which Reuters translates as "the international LGBT social movement". Far better to reflect the term "activist" which Reuters uses when not referring to government statements, eg. "In Russia, the country's Supreme Court bans the LGBT activism." (Edit conflicted here, ALT4 is an alternative that presents the statement as a quote, which is another option resolving this issue.) CMD (talk) 08:00, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

  Yep, wasn't feeling too well about it but didn't know how to word it better. Thanks for the better wordings that make it clear that "LGBT movement" is not a real, specific thing, but at the same time that it will have an impact on actual LGBT people. ChaotıċEnby(t · c) 17:25, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose So, what? The LGBT movement is banned in much of Africa, Central Asia and Western Asia. There are even countries in which LGBT people get death penalties (e.g. Iran) or get tortured before death (e.g. Saudi Arabia). In addition, the LGBT community in Russia didn't have many rights prior to this decision so that this can be considered a major setback (note that death is regularly enforced in Chechnya). I think decrimanlisation in Iran or Saudi Arabia would be a much greater news than this decision that changes very little in practice.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 08:18, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

  Chechnya is an autonomous republic, and not representative of the laws in Russia at large. This is a much bigger and much more worrying change. ChaotıċEnby(t · c) 17:27, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose - Per @Kiril Simeonovski PrecariousWorlds (talk) 09:13, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. This ruling is not transformative. The LGBT movement was already restricted before this ruling. Thriley (talk) 09:35, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose – No significant update to the article in question. ~Maplestrip/Mable (chat) 09:48, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose On quality, as noted above by others, some statements have four cites, why other areas have nothing. There is a lot of sourcing in the article, but it is somewhat unbalanced. Also opposing per Kiril Simeonovski above, who I feel makes a valid point, there wasn't much difference on top of what was already banned. Govvy (talk) 10:44, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose solely on quality The news are definitely notable, but as others above have stated, there are far too many CN tags within the article. --Bucket of sulfuric acid (talk) 11:17, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose Russia is known for a history of anti-LGBTQ movements, and the article is notable in itself as per above, however the quality of the article is not really in the best shape, once the CN tags are removed, may lean toward Support. Editor 5426387 (talk) 14:27, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose The Russian government is already known for its anti-LGBT stance, this doesn't come as a surprise nor does it meaningfully impact Russian politics. PolarManne (talk) 17:02, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose: This doesn't change a thing; it just formalises what has already been in practice for quite a long time. —M3ATH (Moazfargal · Talk) 18:42, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
• Edited blurbs to reflect the point made by several people about contextualizing "LGBT movement" in quotes. ChaotıċEnby(t · c) 19:10, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
• Comment Looks like the practical reality of this is worse than the worst-case-scenario I suggested might happen in my !vote above. Looks like the real-life consequence of this is the banning of not just pro-LGBT speech or being LGBT in public, but a police crackdown of being LGBT behind closed doors in privately-owned spaces. Moscow police raid gay clubs after high court labels LGBTQ+ movement ‘extremist’ - Politico  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 22:15, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

RD: Elliott Erwitt

Article: Elliott Erwitt (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): The Guardian, The New York Times
Credits:

• Nominated by Mr. Lechkar (talk · give credit)

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

French-born American photographer, notable for documenting personalities such as Richard Nixon and Marilyn Monroe, as well as events such as the 2009 inauguration of Barack Obama and John F. Kennedy's state funeral. Mr. Lechkar (talk) 23:15, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

• Comment The unsourced tag on the article needs to be sorted out. 🛧Midori No Sora♪🛪 ( ☁＝☁＝✈) 01:14, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose Needs more sources in the early life and filmmaking career sections. If I see this improved, I'll change my stance. Jmanlucas (talk) 01:55, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose on quality Has an orange tag. QuicoleJR (talk) 19:20, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

RD: Alistair Darling

Article: Alistair Darling (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Sky News, BBC News
Credits:

• Nominated by BlakeIsHereStudios (talk · give credit)

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Former Labour Party Chancellor of the Exchequer and Member of Parliament (MP). BlakeIsHereStudios (talk) 13:03, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose: needs work on the citations. - SchroCat (talk) 13:40, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose per above - far too much unreferenced material. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 15:14, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
• Comment There are still some area's not sourced, but I don't know how strict to be for a yes or not on RD. Govvy (talk) 15:27, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

  1 or 2 CN tags is considered fine, any more than that is usually not. JM (talk) 07:54, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

  Since when? It most certainly wasn't considered fine 12 months ago. Polyamorph (talk) 14:52, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

  WP:ITNQUALITY one or two "citation needed" tags may not hold up an article JM (talk) 15:10, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

  I don't think that means one or two cns should not hold up the posting but rather that it's possible one or two wouldn't be seen by some/many people as a problem, especially if the content that is tagged isn't controversial. I don't think it's making a definite statement that one or two is fine, even if they're on contentious material and/or editors are objecting. Valereee (talk) 15:32, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

  That also states Biographies of living persons are held to higher standards of referencing because of their sensitive nature, and these rules also apply to those recently deceased. As such I don't think the 'one or two' cn tags flexibility applies for RD. Personally I don't think it's acceptable on any article, but it certainly hasn't been acceptable to have cn tags on previous RD discussions. Polyamorph (talk) 15:40, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

  There was just an argument about this in Kissinger's RD/blurb discussion, where Vanilla Wizard said the following: WP:BLP does not apply to the recently deceased when their death is confirmed by reliable sources. Any extension to BLP on such an article only apply to contentious or questionable material about the subject that has implications for their living relatives and friends, such as in the case of a possible suicide or particularly gruesome crime. JM (talk) 15:52, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

  That argument does not represent the consensus here, as stated in WP:ITNQUALITY that you referenced. If you want this change in how things are done at ITN for RD then a more extensive discussion is needed, at this project's talk page and update the criteria notes accordingly. Polyamorph (talk) 16:28, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

  Take it up with Vanilla Wizard, I'm just quoting them from below, where it seemed to be 4v1 in favour of BLP not applying to confirmed deaths (Vanilla Wizard, Ed, BilledMammal, and F4U vs Masem), so they seem to disagree that it goes against policy. Additionally, Queen of Hearts had no problem agreeing that ITNQUALITY was not an issue for a few CNs. Oh and also as far as I can tell BLP doesn't say we can't have any CN tags, just that contentious material must be sourced to RS. JM (talk) 17:51, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

  Take it up with Vanilla Wizard they're not the one discussing here. This is not the place to decide consensus. Your 5v1 count is not consensus. Historically, here at ITN, RDs have required cn tags be addressed before posting. If you want to change that, a discussion is needed at the talk page, not here. Polyamorph (talk) 18:10, 2 December 2023 (UTC) note: the comment this is response to has been edited Polyamorph (talk) 18:14, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

  As I said, the only consensus I see is that of the Kissinger discussion, where the consensus of people involved in the ITNQUALITY/BLP arguement was that a few CNs was fine. That's the only consensus on that area that I can recall (I haven't been here long) and it contradicts what you're saying. So where is this consensus you are talking about? If I could see it then I could judge for myself. JM (talk) 18:15, 2 December 2023 (UTC) note: my comment was corrected within 2 minutes of your comment, before I saw you had commented, in order to clarify that Queen of Hearts agreed with the ITNQUALITY part, not specifically the BLP part. JM (talk) 18:19, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

  I've opened a thread on the talk page, as this is not the correct place for this discussion. Polyamorph (talk) 18:33, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

(Posted) RD: Shane MacGowan

Article: Shane MacGowan (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Guardian
Credits:

• Nominated by The C of E (talk · give credit)
• Updated by Bastun (talk · give credit) and Serial Number 54129 (talk · give credit)

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Lead singer of the Pogues (Fairytale of New York) The C of E God Save the King! (talk) 12:20, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose on quality issues. Still a lot of unsupported material there. - SchroCat (talk) 12:23, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
  • I've just been working on citing the uncited bits @SchroCat:. The C of E God Save the King! (talk) 12:31, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
    • The filmography is still unsupported, as is much of the discography. - SchroCat (talk) 13:42, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
    • Now fully sourced. ——Serial 16:15, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
• Support sourcing issues dealt with. Go Shane. ——Serial 12:25, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
• Support seems to have been cleaned up. "Fucking borders are just such a pain in the fucking arse." Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 15:12, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
• Support Good article on a great artist. Maxxies (talk) 16:00, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
• Support "A man of many words and few teeth" (- Andrew Anthony, The Observer, 2000). Martinevans123 (talk) 17:36, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
• Posted Stephen 22:26, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

November 29

Portal:Current events/2023 November 29

November 29, 2023 (2023-11-29) (Wednesday) Armed conflicts and attacks 2023 Guayana Esequiba crisis, Brazil–Venezuela relations The Brazilian Army mobilizes towards the border of Venezuela and Guyana, anticipating a possible Venezuelan military invasion of Guayana Esequiba. (Escenario Mundial) 2023 Israel–Hamas war 2023 Israel–Hamas war hostage crisis 2023 Israel–Hamas ceasefire Hamas releases four Thai migrant workers and 12 Israeli hostages while Israel releases 30 Palestinian prisoners. In a separate gesture to Russian President Vladimir Putin, two dual citizens of Israel and Russia are also freed by Hamas. (The Times of Israel) October-November 2023 Jenin incursion Israel Defense Forces, Shin Bet, and Israel Border Police announce in a joint statement that they killed Muhammad Zubeidi, the commander of the Jenin branch of the Palestinian Islamic Jihad. (The Jerusalem Post) Two children, aged 14 and 8, are shot dead by IDF troops in Jenin during the raid. The shootings are caught by security cameras. (BBC) Myanmar civil war Operation 1027 The Myanmar National Democratic Alliance Army captures the town of Konkyan in Shan State, Myanmar, after the military's Light Infantry Battalion 125 surrendered to it. (The Irrawaddy) Arts and culture The 15th-century painting Madonna delle Grazie by Sandro Botticelli, with an estimated value of €100 million, which was believed to be missing, is recovered from a residence near Naples, Italy. (The Guardian) Business and economy Austria's largest privately owned real estate company Signa Holding files for insolvency. (Reuters) Disasters and accidents 2023 Yakushima V-22 Osprey crash A United States Air Force V-22 Osprey crashes off the coast of Japan's Kagoshima Prefecture with six crew members onboard. A search and rescue operation has been launched, according to the Japan Coast Guard. (CNN) International relations Finland–Poland relations, Finland–Russia relations National Security Bureau chief Jacek Siewiera announces that Poland will send "a team of military advisors" to the Finland–Russia border in response to an official request for allied support. Finland says it was unaware of the Polish offer. Russia warns against the move, viewing the concentration of troops on the border as a threat. (Reuters) Law and crime Recognition of same-sex unions in Nepal A village authority in Gandaki Province, Nepal, registers the nation's first same-sex marriage. (Reuters) German authorities launch major raids and arrests against the right-wing Wehrsportgruppe Knockout 51 and the Reichsbürger group "Königreich Deutschland". (Taz) (Zeit) French Minister of Justice Éric Dupond-Moretti is acquitted of a charge of conflict of interest by the Cour de Justice de la République. (France 24) Science and technology Right Livelihood Award Eunice Brookman-Amissah, Mother Nature Cambodia, Phyllis Omido and SOS Méditerranée are honored with the Right Livelihood Award in Stockholm, Sweden. (Tagesschau) Solar Cycle 25 NASA says that a coronal mass ejection directed at Earth will result in a geomagnetic storm causing disruption to radio and GPS communications on November 30, particularly in the Southern Hemisphere. (The Times of India) Sports Winter Olympic Games The International Olympic Committee announces that a French Alps/Nice bid is the preferred candidate to host the 2030 Winter Olympics and that Salt Lake City, Utah, United States, is the preferred candidate to host the 2034 Winter Olympics. (CBC News)

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RD: Chris Howland

Article: Chris Howland (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): FAZ
Credits:

• Updated and nominated by Gerda Arendt (talk · give credit)

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Pioneering disc jockey, born in London, on German radio and television from 1952. The 2011 article was a stub with many "references", but only few of them were still useful or accessable. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:22, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

(Ready) RD: Michèle Rivasi

Article: Michèle Rivasi (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): France Bleu
Credits:

• Nominated by Jmanlucas (talk · give credit)
• Updated by Spectritus (talk · give credit), 217.129.165.138 (talk · give credit) and CAWylie (talk · give credit)

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

French MEP since 2009, arrested for breaking into the Kleine Brogel Air Base out of protest with three other MEPs. Jmanlucas (talk) 18:37, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

• Support Article seems to be acceptable length and is well-cited. The Kip 20:02, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
• Support. Looks good enough. 🛧Midori No Sora♪🛪 ( ☁＝☁＝✈) 01:15, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
• Support Article has a sufficient amount of citations + overall content. More could be added into the Education/Early career section, but it’s not that big of a complaint. Good enough. Cheers, atque supra! Fakescientist8000 13:16, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

(Reposted) RD/blurb: Henry Kissinger

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Article: Henry Kissinger (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination
Blurb:  American statesman Henry Kissinger dies at age 100. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ Former U.S. secretary of state Henry Kissinger dies at the age of 100.
News source(s): WaPo
Credits:

• Nominated by Davey2116 (talk · give credit)
• Updated by Joeybrund (talk · give credit), Bedivere (talk · give credit) and Nableezy (talk · give credit)

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Been waiting for this day. Davey2116 (talk) 01:53, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

now now, this is still Wikipedia let’s not turn ITN/C in to a place where we celebrate somebody’s death. We can do that in the privacy of our own homes. nableezy - 01:56, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

• Blurb - obviously I would think. nableezy - 01:51, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
• Support blurb obviously as nominator. Davey2116 (talk) 01:55, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
• Support blurb - he was an extremely controversial and influential figure, so his death is big news Youraveragearmy (talk) 01:57, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

No it's not. He was 100! His death is no surprise at all!! HiLo48 (talk) 02:58, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

• OMD He was 100. The update is currently four words and two numbers long, so mentioning this would bring it to five and three. Should be "29", too, not "29th". InedibleHulk (talk) 01:58, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

  Longer than the blurb now, but still, a big name like this in RD speaks for itself. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:15, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

• Blurb - An exceptionally influential and well-known figure. But oppose the currently proposed blurb. "Statesman" is not a neutral term. It implies a level of renown and respect. Kissinger is, to say the least, a controversial and infamous figure in contemporary American politics.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 01:59, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose blurb Not a head of state, not a head of government, so not sufficiently notable. This is exactly the type of death for whom a Recent Death entry is sufficient. Chrisclear (talk) 02:00, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

• We post individuals who were considered at the top of their field, not just at the top of their country. Kissinger was, for better or for worse, one of the most powerful and effective figures in geopolitics.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 02:04, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

What evidence do you have that he was "one of the most powerful and effective figures in geopolitics"? Chrisclear (talk) 02:07, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

I defer to the biographical article proposed for a blurb. The lede contains multiple sentences noting that Kissinger held a very prominent role in the foreign policy of the United States during his tenure and as such became regarded as a highly effective and influential secretary of state, with some even regarding him as the most effective in the last half-century. I can think of few other geopoliticians whose decisions had so much sway over a nation's foreign policy, and whose ideas continued to influence future leaders even after his time in government came to an end. I'll even go as far as to say this isn't necessarily an Ameri-centric blurb — how many nations' histories have been touched by his decisions?  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 02:20, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Alt blurb. Maybe American-centric, but hugely notable and controversial. Queen of Hearts ❤️ (no relation) 02:05, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

• Hold on Let's not let ourselves be carried away by emotions. There are unsourced paragraphs and lines. I will support the blurb once this has been resolved; this is the time before a politician who is not HoS or HoG. His work in diplomacy did change the Latin American heads of state, without a doubt… _-_Alsor (talk) 02:06, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
• (edit conflict) Support blurb Support alt blurb Internationally known US diplomat whose name is likely more well-known than that of many US presidents abroad. ~ F4U (talk • they/it) 02:07, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

  Support on quality as well. There are only a few uncited sentences and none of them are contentious. ~ F4U (talk • they/it) 04:18, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

• Support blurb obviously not for most secretaries of state, but a remarkably important figure. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 02:07, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Support blurb - obviously one of the most influential and well-known figures of the late 20th century; definitely a leader in his field until today. — Knightoftheswords 02:08, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose blurb, he is certainly notable but not at that level. Otherwise Charlie Munger should probably get a blurb too. - Indefensible (talk) 02:09, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

  Charlie Munger is an obviously different case. I mean for god's sake he's being called America's most famous diplomat, as someone who fundamentally transformed Cold War history, America's most notorious war criminal, etc. ~ F4U (talk • they/it) 02:22, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

  Kissinger was a colossal figure in American diplomatic history and a giant on the world stage during the cold war. -Ad Orientem (talk) 02:39, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

  You're comparing Kissinger to Charlie Munger? I'm...kind of speechless. Maybe it's because I lived through the 70s? Valereee (talk) 02:50, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

• Support alt blurb Kissinger was one of the most important and influential figures of the twentieth century. CJ-Moki (talk) 02:19, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
• Support either blurb. Kissinger is one of the most (in)famous people of the twentieth century. As Tom Lehrer said, "Political satire became obsolete when Henry Kissinger was awarded the Nobel peace prize." --Rockstone^{Send me a message!} 02:26, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
• Support alt blurb. Huge global story, currently atop of the homepages of Le Monde, Der Spiegel, El Pais. Innisfree987 (talk) 02:28, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
• Strong Support Highly influential and infamous. The world should know about this wonderful news in whatever form is most appropriate, a RD and/or blurb.Zombie Philosopher (talk) 02:30, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
• Support alt blurb Large and very notable. -- LemonSlushie 🍋 (talk) (edits) 02:35, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
• Weak Oppose solely on article quality. A few too many gaps in referencing. Strongly Support Blurb on merits. Kissinger was one of the giants of the Cold War. His death probably marks the passing of the last great figure of that era. -Ad Orientem (talk) 02:37, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Support alt blurb as per what others have said above. Alt blurb is a bit more descriptive and neutral than OG blurb. For five more minutes...^{it's just a single vice} 02:38, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Support- His legacy was important in US geopolitics during the Cold War. In addition, his death was recent so it would make sense to be in the news. Rager7 (talk) 02:39, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Support, obviously. BilledMammal (talk) 02:41, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Support blurb or alt blurb. Hate him or love him, he was immensely important on a world scale. Valereee (talk) 02:44, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

• Support alt blurb, per those above. BD2412 T 02:50, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose on quality Support !votes without addressing quality need to be ignored before even considering a blurb. --Masem (t) 02:52, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
  • Looking at the article I don't see any quality issues so significant that they would prevent the posting of this blurb; while quality is important, it doesn't need to be perfect, and the more significant the topic the further it can be from perfect to still be appropriate to post. BilledMammal (talk) 02:56, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

    There are "citation needed" and at least one unsourced paragraphs. Those are dead stops if we are considering a blurb. We do not sacrifice quality to rush something like this to post. Masem (t) 02:59, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

    Given the length of the article, the number of "citation needed" tags appears to be appropriate per WP:ITNQUALITY, and I'm not seeing any entire sections that lack sources or red/orange tags. BilledMammal (talk) 03:24, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

    WRONG. Its a BLP, its held to a higher standard. Zero CNs and zero unsourced paragraphs are the target. Masem (t) 04:07, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

    He's not alive. Have you not read the blurb? ~ F4U (talk • they/it) 04:09, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

    BLP applies to the recently deceased (for at least a period of 6 months). Masem (t) 04:11, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

    Not sure where you're pulling this out of, but it does not (not without editorial consensus which is clearly unlikely to exist). WP:BDP is the link to the relevant section. ~ F4U (talk • they/it) 04:13, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

    I too was going to reply to this to bring up WP:BDP. WP:BLP does not apply to the recently deceased when their death is confirmed by reliable sources. Any extension to BLP on such an article only apply to contentious or questionable material about the subject that has implications for their living relatives and friends, such as in the case of a possible suicide or particularly gruesome crime. Unless any contentious material in the article could plausibly have implications for living relatives of Kissinger, BLP does not apply to this article.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 04:17, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

    There was some change in that policy in 2021 [1] which did not seem to have any RFC, and was a result of one editor taking an initiative based on an ANI thread, which did not seem to have consensus. The prior version of BDP was clear that it wasn't just contentious material that was important to consider for recently deceased. I am going to open a discussion on WT:BLP related to this.

    That said, quality is still a core requirement for any posting, and if we've been looking for CN-free articles for other RDs, we absolutely can expect the same here, and it wasn't like it was days away from being fixed - it was a handful that within hours has gotten fixed. Too many editors here blinding !voting support without workign on improving the article or considering the quality is epidemic of well-known figures. Masem (t) 05:07, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

    ITNQUALITY does not align with the opinion expressed in your first sentence. Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 06:01, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

• Support alt blurb one of the most influential persons of the 20th century. --TheDutchViewer (talk) 02:54, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
• No blurb A major person. That's why he has a lovely big article. But his significant actions were all many decades ago. Nothing new to be said. And we must obviously ignore every comment that effectively says he obviously deserves a blurb. That's NOT an argument! HiLo48 (talk) 02:57, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

By that logic, Nelson Mandela and Margaret Thatcher would not have been blurbed. starship.paint (RUN) 03:01, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Kissinger was never a leader of a country. HiLo48 (talk) 03:06, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Pelé was never a leader of a country either, we blurbed him. starship .paint (RUN) 03:10, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

And shouldn't have. Your point? HiLo48 (talk) 04:47, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

My logic is that they shouldn't have been. JM (talk) 04:54, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Support alt blurb. One of the most influential political figures of the last hundred years. I agree with the concern that statesman sounds too favourable. I'd *personally* go with "war criminal" but in the interest of compromise would accept the alternative blurb. Would also accept no blurb, but I think it would be odd to not have his death noted on the main page at all.

Patitsel (talk) 04:55, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Which war crimes was Kissinger convicted of? ITN is not a place for polemic. We can't say "war criminal" if he wasn't convicted. JM (talk) 05:02, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

People really shouldn't live this long after their career ends. Valereee (talk) 03:04, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

You'll need to bring that up to God. -- Rockstone^{Send me a message!} 03:25, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

God's got a lot of explaining to do, in my book. Valereee (talk) 03:35, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

WP:NOTFORUM if you have opinions on things other than significance or article quality you should go to Twitter or something. JM (talk) 04:53, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

• Support blurb obviously, current cover of NYTimes 𝕸𝖗 𝕽𝖊𝖆𝖉𝖎𝖓𝖌 𝕿𝖚𝖗𝖙𝖑𝖊 🇮🇱🇮🇱🇮🇱 ☎️ 📄 02:58, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
• Support alt blurb One of the most influential foreign policy leaders, controversial figure who remained active until the end and arguably the top of his field in terms of foreign policy. TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 03:00, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
• Support alt blurb once quality is fixed. One of the top diplomats ever, influential internationally. starship.paint (RUN) 03:00, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
• Support alt blurb - widely notable and consequential figure, and not just for the US. ULPS ^{(talk • contribs)} 03:05, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
• Posted alt blurb per strong consensus above. WP:ITNQUALITY appears to be minimally met. Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 03:07, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
• Pull article is NOT ready. There was no rush. We have to look at the quality issues, not just the notoriety! _-_Alsor (talk) 03:10, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
• Pulled >10 CN tags, including contentious material in a BLP. Spencer^T•C 03:15, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

  @Spencer: It's not a BLP; WP:BDP only applies if there is an editorial consensus for it to apply. Further, I'm not seeing any consensus here to pull; can you explain why you see such a consensus? BilledMammal (talk) 03:18, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

  BLP applies to the recently deceased. Masem (t) 04:08, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

  @Masem: WP:BDP says Generally, this policy does not apply to material concerning people who are confirmed dead by reliable sources. The only exception would be for people who have recently died, in which case the policy can extend based on editorial consensus for an indeterminate period beyond the date of death—six months, one year, two years at the outside. Such extensions would only apply to contentious or questionable material about the subject that has implications for their living relatives and friends, such as in the case of a possible suicide or particularly gruesome crime.

  There isn't an editorial consensus, and even if there was none of the "Citation Needed" material appears to have implications for their living relatives and friends. BilledMammal (talk) 04:20, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

  @Spencer: I strongly object to your reversal, which was done in contravention of a clear consensus above. My read of that consensus is that editors were unconcerned with the approximately 5% of the article's words being uncited, and ITNQUALITY states that a few citation needed tags do not disqualify an article from being blurbed. Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 03:23, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

  It's not ideal that Spencer took what they had to know would be a controversial administrator action and then went offline, unable to respond to these questions. Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 04:37, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

  I was able to re-evaluate the article and discussion within 2 hours. Best, Spencer^T•C 05:21, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

  +1 Queen of Hearts ❤️ (no relation) 03:24, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

  Was it really so expensive to wait a few hours to finish fixing the quality of Kissinger’s article? We are not going to make exceptions. _-_Alsor (talk) 03:46, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

  We don't need to make exceptions; WP:ITNQUALITY allows for a few Citation Needed tags. BilledMammal (talk) 03:48, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

  A few, not more than 10 _-_Alsor (talk) 03:54, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

  We are down to less than a few. nableezy - 04:51, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

  No need to keep this from the front page over a few cn tags. None of the uncited material is contentious. Thriley (talk) 03:45, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

  • Uh... Kissinger would play a key role in bombing Cambodia to disrupt raids into South Vietnam from Cambodia, as well as the 1970 Cambodian campaign and subsequent widespread bombing of Khmer Rouge targets in Cambodia.[citation needed] The pull was just. – Muboshgu (talk) 03:46, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

    I wouldn't call that contentious, given Kissenger's position and broader positions. BilledMammal (talk) 03:48, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

    I definitely call it a sentence that should have a source. This is a BLP (or BDP) of a highly controversial person. – Muboshgu (talk) 05:03, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

    That is trivially easy to source and approaches blue sky territory for anybody familiar with the topic. I added a citation to a source that was already in the further reading section. nableezy - 03:52, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

    Citation policy no longer functions in this way. DarkSide830 (talk) 03:50, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

• @Spencer: Please reconsider this pull, it seems improper. Thanks. -- Rockstone^{Send me a message!} 03:47, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

  Spencer is 100% right to pull. Of the !votes before the posted, only a handful addressed the quality and they all pointed out the problems with it. We do not play favorites or weaken our quality requirements to rush an RD or blurb to ITN. Masem (t) 04:10, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

• Support alt blurb once tags are handled. Highly prominent in world affairs and atrongly polarizing. DrewieStewie (talk) 03:17, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
• Support alt blurb once CN tags are fixed per all above. Kanyewestlover999 (talk) 03:20, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose on Quality. Yes, the portion of Kissinger's article that is uncited isn't massive, but it's enough, IMO, that deserves note. No rush here. It's not like we need to post his death imminently. DarkSide830 (talk) 03:48, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
• Support alt blurb once quality is resolved. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 03:48, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
• Support alt blurb One of the most influential fiugures of the 20th century, for better or for worse. –DMartin 04:07, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
• Ive fixed a handful of the cn tags, we're down to 3 and I think thats good enough for the main page. Should be restored unless we are concerned about it being too early for the UK/EU editors to weigh in on blurbability. nableezy - 04:20, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
  • I think I've fixed 3 cn tags and we are down to 2 cn tags. We should be able to clear these up in an hour? starship.paint (RUN) 04:27, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

    It's not like 1 or 2 CN tags matter anyway for either RD or a blurb. JM (talk) 05:03, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose blurb — U.S.-centric news. I recognize his significance, but Kissinger was not a head of state. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 04:29, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

  We dont have a head of state rule, we do have a rule on not opposing material because it relates to one country. And the people of Vietnam, Cambodia, Egypt, Israel, Cuba, Chile, Argentina, and ... would all like a word with you on how US-centric this man was. nableezy - 04:38, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

• Support altblurb per above on notibilty. Being a more high-profile member of the U.S. Government and arguably one of the most powerful members to never be president, his death merits a blurb. Although I understand the reasons behind those who !oppose, I stand by my vote. On quality: Yes, there are some CN tags still in article, but the number has been reduced to 2. Ideally, those should be rectified as well, but for an article of this length, it can sort of get away with 2 tags. ❤HistoryTheorist❤ 04:47, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

• Support RD, Oppose Blurb old man dies. Kissinger was 100 and in charge of nothing, that's not a death notable enough for an ITN blurb. Good enough for RD, only 2 citation tags. Also, I'll call out the nominator for a nominator's comment composed entirely of WP:FORUM without even mentioning notability or quality, and also adding a support vote for their own nomination. No doubt this is a contentious person, but enough. This is ITN, not Twitter. JM (talk) 04:51, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
• Reposted Citation issues have been substantially improved. Spencer^T•C 04:55, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
• Post-posting support altblurb My personal feelings on the man aside, he was a titan of the Cold War and arguably more influential in 20th-century geopolitics than some prominent world leaders. I feel that he lives up to the stature of a blurb-worthy figure, for better or (most certainly) worse. The Kip 05:22, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
• Post-posting support altblurb Per above, very notable individual in 20th century geopolitics. Centuries123 (talk) 05:30, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
• Support altblurb—Kissinger was a major, major figure in world affairs during the 1970s. I'd say he's plenty blurb-worthy. Kurtis ^(talk) 05:38, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
• Support. Like him or hate him, a lot of world history surrounded him. KyuuA4 (Talk:キュウ) 05:52, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Post-posting Support - Considering just how influential in global affairs he continued to be even up to the age of 100. Whatever you think of him, damn, what a life PrecariousWorlds (talk) 07:15, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

RD: Sticky Vicky

Article: Sticky Vicky (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): LadBible Joe
Credits:

• Updated and nominated by NAEGABYONHAE (talk · give credit)

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

NAEGABYEONHAE (talk) 12:49, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

• Support The article looks fine. The nomination could use some credits for the editors who worked on it but that’s not a show-stopper. Andrew🐉(talk) 14:08, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
• Support No big problems and no longer three minutely glaring ones; the show must go on. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:36, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
• Support Looks ready to post. Jmanlucas (talk) 03:49, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
• Comment One citation in the article is to the Metro, which is unreliable per WP:METRO. Also for the record, BBC wrote on Thursday that "The performer's daughter announced she had died early on Friday morning in a post on her official Facebook page",[2] but that date of "Friday" is inconsistent with the daughter's actual FB post from Wednesday 29 Nov: "I regret writing these words, my mother Sticky Vicky passed away today at 6..."[3]—Bagumba (talk) 16:52, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

  Both fixed, though a sentence is now a CN. Aaron Liu (talk) 00:46, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

November 28

Portal:Current events/2023 November 28

November 28, 2023 (2023-11-28) (Tuesday) Armed conflicts and attacks 2023 Israel–Hamas war 2023 Israel–Hamas war hostage crisis 2023 Israel–Hamas ceasefire Hamas releases two Thai migrant workers, 10 Israeli hostages and a pet dog, while Israel releases 30 Palestinian prisoners. (The Times of Israel) (AP via ABC News) Israeli incursions in the West Bank Two Palestinians are killed during clashes with Israeli Defense Forces in the West Bank. (The Times of Israel) Russian invasion of Ukraine Eastern Ukraine campaign Battle of Avdiivka Russian forces advance on "all sides" of Avdiivka in Donetsk Oblast, Ukraine as they encircle the city. Heavy fighting is reported for control of the Avdiivka Coke Plant. (Reuters) (The Independent) New People's Army rebellion The Philippine government and communist rebels, represented by the National Democratic Front, agree to resume peace talks after six years. (Reuters) Disasters and accidents 2023 Uttarakhand tunnel rescue Rescuers in Uttarakhand, India, successfully drill through to 41 men trapped for over two weeks following a tunnel collapse. (CNN) A rock burst at a coal mine in Shuangyashan, Heilongjiang, China, kills eleven miners. (AP via ABC News) Four miners are killed and another is injured after a water pipeline ruptured inside a coal mine in Jaworzno, Poland. (AP) Three people are killed in an explosion at a business in Hillsboro, Ohio, United States. (WHIO) International relations Expo 2030 Saudi Arabia’s capital Riyadh is chosen to host the 2030 World Expo, over South Korean port city Busan and Rome for the event expected to draw millions of visitors. (GDN Online) Finland–Russia relations Finland closes the entire border with Russia after accusing the Russian government of facilitating the entry of asylum seekers into the country. (The Guardian) Russia–United States relations A Russian district court extends American journalist Evan Gershkovich's detention on espionage charges until January 30, 2024. (AFP via France 24) Law and crime Hijab and burka controversies in Europe The Court of Justice of the European Union rules that employees can be banned from wearing "signs of religious belief", such as Islamic hijabs, in all European Union member states. (The Independent via Yahoo! News) Regulation of electronic cigarettes The Australian government announces a ban on the import of disposable electronic cigarettes, effective January 1, 2024, in an effort to reduce nicotine addiction in children and young adults. (BBC News)

---

(Ready) RD: Agyemang Diawusie

Article: Agyemang Diawusie (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Bundesliga Jahn Regensberg Kicker
Credits:

• Nominated by MonarchOfTerror (talk · give credit)
• Updated by Robby.is.on (talk · give credit) and Bocanegra (talk · give credit)

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

German association football player. Scientia potentia est, MonarchOfTerror 17:36, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

• Support Well-sourced. No info about the cause yet, but he was surprisingly young. Source 16(worldfootball.net) isn't an RS but its one use is corroborated by another source, so that's fine. Sincerely, Novo Tape (She/Her)^{My Talk Page} 17:42, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

• Support Article seems well-sourced, marking as Ready as it's been a few days with no other input. The Kip 07:58, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

(Ready) RD: James Douglas-Hamilton, Baron Selkirk of Douglas

Article: James Douglas-Hamilton, Baron Selkirk of Douglas (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Herald
Credits:

• Updated and nominated by Sunshineisles2 (talk · give credit)
• Updated by Jkaharper (talk · give credit), Upton Liptrot (talk · give credit) and Mike Rohsopht (talk · give credit)

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Scottish politician. Sunshineisles2 (talk) 19:06, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

• Support Well-sourced. Sincerely, Novo Tape (She/Her)^{My Talk Page} 19:38, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Support a few unsourced claims, not enough to be a significant issue JM (talk) 10:54, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

• Support Well cited and meets the criteria. The C of E God Save the King! (talk) 12:39, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

• Weak oppose Political career section is a resume in prose format, without much depth/detail about what he accomplished in his various positions. Spencer^T•C 16:27, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
• Support per above, marking as Ready. The Kip 07:57, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

(Posted) RD: Mali (elephant)

Article: Mali (elephant) (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Rappler
Credits:

• Nominated by BSrap (talk · give credit)

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

KTerPalmers (talk) 01:57, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

• Support i see no quality issues. JM (talk) 03:24, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose A lot of the content is completely unsourced. 🔥Jalapeño🔥 Stupid stuff I did 09:14, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
• Support I checked out the "only elephant in the Philippines" claim and it seems sound. There was another popular elephant, Goyo, owned by Rafael Roces which was donated to the Mehan Garden but it died during the Second World War. Andrew🐉(talk) 10:56, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
• Posted Stephen 22:20, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
• Comment Can we put "Mali (elephant)"? Right now it looks like RD is saying the nation of Mali has died. It was odd enough that I had to click on it to see what it was referring to.--Varavour (talk) 21:33, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

  See thr WP:ERRORS discussion. Sincerely, Novo Tape (She/Her)^{My Talk Page} 22:26, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

(Posted) RD: Charlie Munger

Article: Charlie Munger (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): CNBC
Credits:

• Nominated by Thriley (talk · give credit)

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Thriley (talk) 21:12, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

• Support Article looks good. Davey2116 (talk) 22:03, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
• Support - article is missing a couple of references currently but seems to meet requirements overall. - Indefensible (talk) 22:28, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
• Support "Of all the deadly sins, the dumbest is envy. It's the only one you can't have any fun with." Charlie Munger -Ad Orientem (talk) 22:45, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

• Support article looks good and Munger was a very prominent figure. —Panamitsu (talk) 22:53, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
• Support . Count Iblis (talk) 23:55, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
• Hold on there’s (only) two cn tags. _-_Alsor (talk) 01:08, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

  i thought 1 or 2 CN tags was fine for RD JM (talk) 01:21, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

  Agreed. The overall quality of the article is solid. The two CN tags are not attached to especially controversial claims. If someone can fix them that would be good. But the article is in better shape than most we see nominated here. -Ad Orientem (talk) 01:46, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

  Yes, you’re right. But I prefer to see articles posted without any cn tags especially when the few that remain seem to be easily fixable (personal preference, of course). _-_Alsor (talk) 14:56, 29 November 2023 (UTC)