Wikipedia:Featured article candidates

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This star, with one point broken, indicates that an article is a candidate on this page. Here, we determine which articles are to be featured articles (FAs). FAs exemplify Wikipedia's very best work and satisfy the FA criteria. All editors are welcome to review nominations; please see the review FAQ. Before nominating an article, nominators may wish to receive feedback by listing it at Peer review and adding the review to the FAC peer review sidebar. Editors considering their first nomination, and any subsequent nomination before their first FA promotion, are strongly advised to seek the involvement of a mentor, to assist in the preparation and processing of the nomination. Nominators must be sufficiently familiar with the subject matter and sources to deal with objections during the featured article candidates (FAC) process. Nominators who are not significant contributors to the article should consult regular editors of the article before nominating it. Nominators are expected to respond positively to constructive criticism and to make efforts to address objections promptly. An article should not be on Featured article candidates and Peer review or Good article nominations at the same time. The FAC coordinators—Ian Rose, Gog the Mild, Buidhe and Hog Farm—determine the timing of the process for each nomination. For a nomination to be promoted to FA status, consensus must be reached that it meets the criteria. Consensus is built among reviewers and nominators; the coordinators determine whether there is consensus. A nomination will be removed from the list and archived if, in the judgment of the coordinators: actionable objections have not been resolved; consensus for promotion has not been reached; insufficient information has been provided by reviewers to judge whether the criteria have been met; or a nomination is unprepared, after at least one reviewer has suggested it be withdrawn. It is assumed that all nominations have good qualities; this is why the main thrust of the process is to generate and resolve critical comments in relation to the criteria, and why such resolution is given considerably more weight than declarations of support. Do not use graphics or complex templates on FAC nomination pages. Graphics such as  Done and  Not done slow down the page load time, and complex templates can lead to errors in the FAC archives. For technical reasons, templates that are acceptable are {{collapse top}} and {{collapse bottom}}, used to hide offtopic discussions, and templates such as {{green}} that apply colours to text and are used to highlight examples without altering fonts. Other templates such as {{done}}, {{not done}}, {{tq}}, {{tq2}}, and {{xt}}, may be removed. An editor is allowed to be the sole nominator of only one article at a time, but two nominations may be allowed if the editor is a co-nominator on at least one of them. If a nomination is archived, the nominator(s) should take adequate time to work on resolving issues before re-nominating. None of the nominators may nominate or co-nominate any article for two weeks unless given leave to do so by a coordinator; if such an article is nominated without asking for leave, a coordinator will decide whether to remove it. A coordinator may exempt from this restriction an archived nomination that attracted no (or minimal) feedback. Nominations in urgent need of review are listed here. To contact the FAC coordinators, please leave a message on the FAC talk page, or use the {{@FAC}} notification template elsewhere. A bot will update the article talk page after the article is promoted or the nomination archived; the delay in bot processing can range from minutes to several days, and the {{FAC}} template should remain on the talk page until the bot updates {{Article history}}. Table of Contents – This page:

Featured content: Featured articles ← Featured lists Featured pictures Featured topics Featured article candidates (FAC) Featured article criteria Featured article log Featured article statistics Featured article review (FAR) Former featured articles Unreviewed featured articles/2020 Today's featured article (TFA): This month's queue About Today's featured article Recent TFAs and statistics Current TFA requests Potential TFA requests TFA oddities Most viewed TFAs Featured articles yet to appear as TFA Script to track TFA recent changes Featured article tools: Mentoring for FAC Nominators of featured articles promoted Recent changes to featured articles Random featured article

Nominating How to nominate an article Nomination procedure Before nominating an article, ensure that it meets all of the FA criteria and that peer reviews are closed and archived. The featured article toolbox (at right) can help you check some of the criteria. Place {{subst:FAC}} at the top of the talk page of the nominated article and save the page. From the FAC template, click on the red "initiate the nomination" link or the blue "leave comments" link. You will see pre-loaded information; leave that text. If you are unsure how to complete a nomination, please post to the FAC talk page for assistance. Below the preloaded title, complete the nomination page, sign with ~~~~, and save the page. Copy this text: {{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/name of nominated article/archiveNumber}} (substituting Number), and edit this page (i.e., the page you are reading at the moment), pasting the template at the top of the list of candidates. Replace "name of ..." with the name of your nomination. This will transclude the nomination into this page. In the event that the title of the nomination page differs from this format, use the page's title instead. Commenting, etc Commenting, supporting and opposing Supporting and opposing To respond to a nomination, click the "Edit" link to the right of the article nomination (not the "Edit this page" link for the whole FAC page). All editors are welcome to review nominations; see the review FAQ for an overview of the review process. To support a nomination, write *'''Support''', followed by your reason(s), which should be based on a full reading of the text. If you have been a significant contributor to the article before its nomination, please indicate this. A reviewer who specializes in certain areas of the FA criteria should indicate whether the support is applicable to all of the criteria. To oppose a nomination, write *'''Object''' or *'''Oppose''', followed by your reason(s). Each objection must provide a specific rationale that can be addressed. If nothing can be done in principle to address the objection, a coordinator may disregard it. References on style and grammar do not always agree; if a contributor cites support for a certain style in a standard reference work or other authoritative source, reviewers should consider accepting it. Reviewers who object are strongly encouraged to return after a few days to check whether their objection has been addressed. To withdraw the objection, strike it out (with <s> ... </s>) rather than removing it. Alternatively, reviewers may transfer lengthy, resolved commentary to the FAC archive talk page, leaving a link in a note on the FAC archive. To provide constructive input on a nomination without specifically supporting or objecting, write *'''Comment''' followed by your advice. For ease of editing, a reviewer who enters lengthy commentary may create a neutral fourth-level subsection, named either ==== Review by EditorX ==== or ==== Comments by EditorX ==== (do not use third-level or higher section headers). Please do not create subsections for short statements of support or opposition—for these a simple *'''Support''',*'''Oppose''', or *'''Comment''' followed by your statement of opinion, is sufficient. Please do not use a semicolon to bold a subheading; this creates accessibility problems. If a nominator feels that an Oppose has been addressed, they should say so, either after the reviewer's signature, or by interspersing their responses in the list provided by the reviewer. Per talk page guidelines, nominators should not cap, alter, strike, or add graphics to comments from other editors. If a nominator finds that an opposing reviewer is not returning to the nomination page to revisit improvements, this should be noted on the nomination page, with a diff to the reviewer's talk page showing the request to reconsider.

Nominations

Phoolan Devi

Nominator(s): Mujinga (talk) 12:32, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Phoolan Devi (1963 – 2001), also known as the Bandit Queen, had a rather unique life. She went from a very poor rural beginning in Uttar Pradesh to being a notorious dacoit (bandit). Her fame grew amongst the lower castes in India whilst she was on the run since she was seen as a Robin Hood figure; she was also involved (to at least some degree) in the Behmai massacre. She negotiated her surrender to the authorities and spent eleven years in prison. Her charges were dropped so she could become an MP in the Lok Sabha, the lower house of India's Parliament, then she was shot to death whilst incumbent. It's quite a story, made more colourful by her tendency to change how she recounted the events of her life to suit different situations. The film Bandit Queen made her globally famous although she herself objected to her depiction and at first wanted it banned in India. This article was improved by a helpful review at GA (by @Larataguera:) and useful comments at PR from (@Alanna the Brave:, @SusunW: and @BennyOnTheLoose:). A note on naming conventions - after several discussions it was decided to refer to her consistently as Phoolan Devi. All constructive comments welcome! Mujinga (talk) 12:32, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

AK

Comments1

• Placeholder; at first glance, it looks pretty comprehensive, but there are a rather lot of prose issues that I can see. AryKun (talk) 13:53, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
• Needs a Hindi transliteration of her name.

  that's beyond my capabilities, at this stage probably it's worth making a list to ask for help at WP:INDIA in case there's anything else too Mujinga (talk) 16:04, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

  फूलन देवी. Copy paste that AryKun (talk) 16:52, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• Needs a comma after the name since you have "popularly known as" afterwards.

  added Mujinga (talk) 16:04, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• "politician, who became a Member of Parliament before being assassinated" would be better as "politician who served as a Member of Parliament from Mirzapur". We can mention her assassination later in the lead, it isn't a defining characteristic of her or something that is super-widely known.

  i would disagree her assassination is not a defining characteristic Mujinga (talk) 16:11, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

  Isn't a defining characteristic, the defining characteristic is her dacoity.

• "caused them many problems" What problems? Presumably financial hardship, so mention it.

  this summarises "Phoolan Devi's uncle and his son (her cousin) stole land from her father ... Her family was compelled to live in a small house on the edge of the village; the uncle and son continued to harass the family and to steal their crops, aiming to drive them away from the village ... Maiyadin ordered her to leave, and when she did not, he beat her into unconsciousness; the village leader then decreed that her parents should also be beaten ... Phoolan Devi's mother told The Asian Age that she was still fighting to regain the land which Maiyadin had stolen from the family ... Maiyadin pressured the family to ask Puttilal to take her back ... In January 1979, Maiyadin destroyed the family's crops and began to chop down a neem tree on their land. When Phoolan Devi threw stones at him and wounded his face, she was arrested by the local police and detained for one month" etc Mujinga (talk) 16:11, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

  Stop quoting the article as a reply, I read the article already. I'm saying mention what kinds of problems (eg financial hardships) were caused in the lead.

• "sexually abused repeatedly" Didn't this happen after her marriage? Actually, this entire sentence is nonsensical; her marriage and the kidnapping (which was followed by sexual abuse) are separate incidents and mentioning them together portrays them as clearly leading to each other. You should have one sentence about her marriage and maybe later troubles, and then another about her kidnapping and how it eventually led to her joining the dacoits.

  she was sexually abused by (at least) Puttilal, the second son of the village leader, the police (probably), Babu Gujjar, Shri Ram Singh and the Behmai Thakurs Mujinga (talk) 16:11, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• "in absentia" should be in italics.

  All of those were still after marriage (as opposed to current phrasing, which implies some occurred before marriage), and none of those are directly related to her joining the dacoits, which is also implied by the current phrasing.

  done Mujinga (talk) 16:11, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• Chief Minister should be capitalized when used in the construction "Chief Minister of state".

  shall we wait until Talk:List_of_chief_ministers_of_Uttar_Pradesh#Requested_move_21_September_2023 is resolved? Mujinga (talk) 16:14, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• "were amplified" → "intensified" or similar, "were amplified" implies someone was amplifying them

  i think calls can be amplified, happy to take another opinion on that Mujinga (talk) 16:14, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• "without facing trial" Wasn't she awaiting trial? This isn't clear in the body either, see below.

  i'm glad you are reading the body, since I always read the lead lasty after the reading the article. she didn't face a trial in 11 years Mujinga (talk) 16:33, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

  But she was awaiting trial, right? So shouldn't that be mentioned?

• "Phoolan Devi...Party in 1996" I shuddered reading that comma splice, would be better as "After the charges against her were set aside in 1994, Phoolan Devi was released from prison and joined politics, standing as a Member of Parliament as a member of the Samjwadi Party in 1996".

  I prefer my version, happy to hear other opinions Mujinga (talk) 16:33, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• "At the...criminal charges." How is this worth mentioning in the lead? You don't even mention the SC setting aside the dismissal of the charges before this.

  i'm summarising the article? Mujinga (talk) 16:33, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• "worldwide fame" seems peacock-y, maybe "fame outside India".

  this summarises "Phoolan Devi's fame throughout India continued to grow after her death, and the controversy surrounding the Bandit Queen film had already ensured that she was globally famous; she has become a legendary figure, alongside other outlaws such as Ned Kelly, Sándor Rózsa and Pancho Villa" Mujinga (talk) 16:33, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• "told her life story in a way she herself did not approve of" Again, how does this matter?

  i am summarising the article Mujinga (talk) 16:33, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• "There are varying accounts of her life because she told her story in different ways." There got to be a better way to phrase this. "She told her story in different ways" just sounds like something a fan group would say about someone caught lying.

  happy to hear other opinions on this Mujinga (talk) 16:33, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• Mentioning India in her birthplace is pointing out the obvious, just Uttar Pradesh is enough.

• I prefer to keep it since I want the body of the article to be correct, happy to hear other opinions Mujinga (talk) 16:33, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

But it is so obvious as to be pointless; you wouldn't insert "George Walker Bush was born in New Haven, Connecticut, United States" to that article, would you? AryKun (talk) 16:57, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• "from the Mallah...Shudra varna" Overexplaining, the audience most likely to read this article (Indians) already know what caste is. We wouldn't have an explanation of Jim Crow laws in an article about a Black American from the 1940s.

  Yeah this is going to be contentious and has already been discussed/edited several times. Since WP:INDIA has been invited twice to look over the article and several active members made edits, I assume the current version is OK, but .. happy to hear other opinions. I just want the article to be accurate. I disagree with "the audience most likely to read this article (Indians)" - if this article is featured on the front page of english wikipedia I'd hope people from all over the world will see it. Having said that, I'm ofc open to improving the article Mujinga (talk) 16:33, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

  The one front page appearance this may have aside, the vast majority of readers will know the obvious things we're explaining; just say that Mallahs are Shudras, and let the hyperlinks explain the rest for people who don't know what the caste system is (also, I think pretty much everyone at least knows this, even in the West). AryKun (talk) 16:56, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• "collecting dung cakes" You collect dung, not dung cakes. Also, dung as a source of fuel is common in Indian villages even today; if this is going to be mentioned, I'd like to see a quote from the source explicitly mentioning this as helping them "survive".

  I'll have to check the sources so this one is left open for now Mujinga (talk) 16:33, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• "her father Devidin" Why don't you mention him alongside her mother?

  current version is "Phoolan Devi's mother was called Moola. Devi had four sisters and one brother; her father Devidin had one brother, who had a son called Maiyadin. Phoolan Devi's uncle and his son (her cousin) stole land from her father by bribing the village leader to change the land records" Mujinga (talk) 16:33, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• No name for the uncle?

  I'll have to check the sources so this one is left open for now Mujinga (talk) 16:33, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• "his son (her cousin)" Just say Maiyadin.

  yes it coudl be phrased better, I went for "her cousin Maiyadin " Mujinga (talk) 16:33, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• "family and to steal" Drop the "to"

  the subject here is "the uncle and son continued" so "to steal" works for me Mujinga (talk) 16:33, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• "protest against the injustice" Injustice is editorializing.

  what word would you suggest? Mujinga (talk) 16:33, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• "into unconsciousness" I don't think "into consciousness" is a phrase.

  works for me, I'm Br-Eng though Mujinga (talk) 16:33, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• "who offered" Sounds like Puttilal gave them the dowry; should be the other way round.

  no it was Puttilal so you read it right Mujinga (talk) 16:33, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• "₹ 100" No space after the sign.

  done! Mujinga (talk) 16:33, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• "months later Puttilal" → "months later, Puttilal"

  done! Mujinga (talk) 16:33, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• "later became sick" Fell sick is more appropriate.

  sure I'll take "fell" and i cut out later since there's a previous one Mujinga (talk) 16:33, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• "who gave a diagnosis of" → "diagnosed her with"

  went for "diagnosed" Mujinga (talk) 16:33, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• "preying on" Again, editorializing.

  what word would you suggest? Mujinga (talk) 16:33, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• "Puttilal took her back" → "Puttilal would take her back"

  I don't think "would" is needed here Mujinga (talk) 16:33, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• "that it contained" It is ambiguous, just say document.

  sorry i'm not seeing the ambiguity? Mujinga (talk) 16:33, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• "also known locally as bahghis" You never use this name again, so just cut it.

  For me, including the local name is useful just so people don't wonder if there's a difference between dacoits and bahghis if they read into the soucres Mujinga (talk) 16:33, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Comments2

• "enjoyed mistreating her" Ambiguous, say Devi.

  Sentence reads "Again, Phoolan Devi needed to leave the village and Maiyadin pressured the family to ask Puttilal to take her back, which he did; in the meantime, he had taken another wife who enjoyed mistreating her" so to me it's clear who "her" refers to, happy to take other opinions Mujinga (talk) 16:43, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• "the river" Indefinite article or mention the exact river.

  "After several years, Puttilal abandoned Phoolan Devi beside the river" reads fine to me?

• "to the parental" → "to her parental"

  "she again returned to the parental home" reads fine to me? Mujinga (talk) 16:43, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• "the station" Specify police station, somewhat unclear at first read.

  done Mujinga (talk) 16:43, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• "attempted to seize" → "kidnapped"

  sure! Mujinga (talk) 16:43, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• "he killed Gujjar" When, how, why?

  is any of that really necessary? I'd have to check the sources but I don't remember a huge amount of detail here and the when is quite confused Mujinga (talk) 16:43, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• I'm just going to oppose this right now. There are just too many issues here. Just going to note a couple points below where there may be factual, DUE, or comprehensiveness issues.

  oh that's a shame, hopefully we can get there! i've been able to answer/reply on the above in ten minutes Mujinga (talk) 16:43, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

  No offense, but you haven't actually addressed any of the substantive comments, just the minor prose and grammar related issues. The actual comprehensiveness and DUE issues still remain unaddressed, or have replies that are just quotes from the article I just read. AryKun (talk) 17:01, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• "Shri Ram Singh" Is Shri actually his name or just an honorific?

  I'm following the sources Mujinga (talk) 16:43, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

  Well, what do the sources say? This is a question, not an abstract pontification. AryKun (talk) 16:47, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• "Chheda Singh" Who is this guy? Why does he matter?

  This came up at PR, happy to remove if other people agree Mujinga (talk) 16:43, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• "Man Singh" Again, who is this?

  sentence reads "Phoolan Devi managed to escape and formed another gang with Man Singh" - I could say "the bandit Man Singh" but is that not obvious? Mujinga (talk) 16:45, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• "confirmed by the evidence" Corroborated, not confirmed.

  I don't think much is wrong about confirmed, but "corroborated" also works so changed Mujinga (talk) 16:45, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• "one Other Backward Class" OBC isn't a caste, it's a administrative grouping.

  this came up at PR, the source uses OBC Mujinga (talk) 16:43, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• "given land with their goat and cow" Implies they already had a goat and cow?

  The quote in The Atlantic reads: "My other conditions were that all my cases be tried together in Madhya Pradesh in special courts; that the land that was my father's and was stolen by my cousin be rightfully returned to him; that my brother [he was then fourteen] be given a government job; that my family be resettled in Madhya Pradesh, on government land; and that they be accompanied by my goat and cow." Mujinga (talk) 17:01, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

  Then clarify that it's "her" goat, not "their" goat.

• "Phoolan Devi spent over ten years on remand" Why?

  I really wish I had a reliable source to answer that question, this was also discussed at PR Mujinga (talk) 17:01, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• "by order of the central government of Mulayam Singh Yadav" You probably mean state government, MSY has never led a government at the Centre. Also, you need to explain why this happened; MSY's government was in power in UP, and Devi was incarcerated in MP.
• "She was...Shobhawati Devi." Irrelevant.

  sentence reads "She was not the only illiterate MP, joining others such as Bhagwati Devi and Shobhawati Devi" - this seems like useful info to me, thinking in terms of the general reader Mujinga (talk) 17:02, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

  How is this useful? It's trivia. You don't even mention her literacy anywhere earlier in the article, because it's irrelevant.

• "to the outrage of the widows of Behmai" Non-encyclopedic tone.

  what would you suggest here? it is a rather highstakes situation Mujinga (talk) 17:04, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• Why is In culture before Assassination?

  What would you suggest here? Mujinga (talk) 17:04, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• "Moxham reported that she then renounced Buddhism" When, immediately after converting? Why?
• What argument does Roy make in her article, since you mention it?
• "become a legendary figure" Sounds peacock-y.

  i'm following the sources I would say but happy to consider alternatives Mujinga (talk) 17:04, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• "Tributes were...Janata Dal." Irrelevant, this is more or less every party in UP with a lower caste base of support. AryKun (talk) 15:25, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

  irrelevant to you perhaps but worth including for the general reader? Mujinga (talk) 17:05, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

  Your hypothetical general reader is too Western-centric and apparently has no knowledge of India; like I said, this just pointless platitudes (two of the parties delivering the platitudes aren't even electorally relevant in UP), and UNDUE in this article.

• Please stop quoting the article as a reply to a comment; I read the article, each comment is pointing out an issue that I feel exists with the current form of the article, and quoting the thing I have an issue with is not a response to the issue pointed out. AryKun (talk) 16:54, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

  @AryKun we are in an edit conflcit, would you mind letting me finish off the replies? thanks! Mujinga (talk) 16:57, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

  @AryKun thanks for the comments, I'm done with the first round of replies and will dip into the sources for some other answers a bit later on Mujinga (talk) 17:05, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Sir William Gordon-Cumming, 4th Baronet

Nominator(s): SchroCat (talk) 09:01, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Gordon-Cumming was the key figure in the Royal baccarat scandal. A friend of the Prince of Wales for 20 years, he was accused of cheating at cards which brought to an end his military career and social life. From the viewpoint of the 21st century, he is an odious individual with few redeeming features, but even back in his lifetime there are people who would have agreed with that. - SchroCat (talk) 09:01, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Pinging Tim and Tim as PR attendees who asked to be nudged when we got to FAC. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 09:03, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Support from Tim riley

My few quibbles were dealt with during the peer review. On rereading for FAC I have found nothing else to fuss about. Meets the FA criteria in my view: cogent, balanced, well illustrated, nice range of sources, and a good read. It's under 2,000 words, but well covers all that needs covering. Tim riley talk 13:33, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Support from Tim O'Doherty

Chipped in at PR; the article has changed very little from my review at that point in time, adjusted only to fit Tim R's comments: therefore, support on prose and comprehensiveness, will let others do image/source formatting etc. reviews. An enjoyable read on a thoroughly unpleasant character whom I knew nothing about beforehand. Cheers, Tim O'Doherty (talk) 14:46, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

UC

Placing a marker. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 16:30, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

C. O. Brocato

Nominator(s): BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:04, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

With my first featured article nomination out of 850 articles created, may I present to you C. O. Brocato. I first found out about Brocato last June when I noticed he was one of the candidates for the Pro Football Hall of Fame and saw he did not have an article. This was one of my favorites to write and I believe it is one of my best works. A little bit about Brocato:

From Louisiana, Brocato attended St. John's High School and was the football team captain while playing fullback and placekicker. After graduating from St. John's, he attended Baylor University and became known as one of the best placekickers under pressure in the U.S. (while receiving the nickname "The Foot" ) for his making of several game-winning kicks which helped lead Baylor to their first major bowl game. He was chosen in the National Football League Draft after his college career but was considered too small and opted to enter coaching instead of trying to make a team.

After assisting the Haynesville High School team for a time he was named head coach at St. John's High School, where he had graduated from. He led them to several championships and some of the best teams in school history; in his third year, he led them to their first winning season since he had captained them as a player — which was featured as a WP:DYK hook. Following his time at St. John's (renamed to Jesuit during his stint there), Brocato coached college football as an assistant with the Northern Arizona Lumberjacks and Texas–Arlington Mavericks before resigning in 1973 to enter the scouting ranks, which he was best known for.

Brocato was a scout from 1974 until his death at 85 in 2015 – all but four of those years with the Houston Oilers / Tennessee Oilers / Titans. He became regarded as one of the greatest scouts in football history for his extensive research on every player and for his mentoring of many others in the field. He drove across the country and added around 20,000 miles (32,000 km) per year to his car to do his research on NFL prospects – even going into his 70s. He also invented several NFL Scouting Combine events, including the three-cone drill – which is considered a key test for players nowadays. He was responsible for the Oilers / Titans' drafting of four Pro Football Hall of Fame players – including Earl Campbell, one of the best players of all time – and many of those whom Brocato worked with have advocated for his induction into the Hall of Fame as well. He has been a candidate for the hall on several occasions and was a semifinalist the past two years; the NFL also recently named an award in his honor, given to those who have "dedicated a lifetime of service to the scouting community".

I have had several users with FA experience review the article, including Gonzo fan2007 (who also reviewed it for DYK and WP:GA), Cbl62 and PCN02WPS. Also note that I intend on using this for the WikiCup, so I would appreciate if this could be finished by the end of October. Thanks, BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:04, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

First-time nomination

• Hi BeanieFan11, and welcome to FAC. Just noting that as a first time nominator at FAC, this article will need to pass a source to text integrity spot check and a review for over-close paraphrasing to be considered for promotion. Good luck with the nomination. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:42, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
  • @Gog the Mild: OK, is that done here or do I have to do something somewhere else to get that done? BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:45, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

It is done here and you don't need to do anything other than respond to any points raised as and when it happens. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:48, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

PCN02WPS

• After my prose review at Talk:C. O. Brocato#Pre-FAC comments, I am happy to support based on comments and responses left there. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 16:44, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Gonzo_fan2007

• Scout (sport) should be linked in the lead and the body of the article.
• In the first sentence, his work as a scout and coach just take pre-eminence over his brief playing career. Per MOS:BIOFIRSTSENTENCE, we should try to get his nationality in the lead. Recommend rewriting to Cosimo O. Brocato Jr. (October 31, 1929 – September 1, 2015) was an American scout, coach and football player
• The Houston / Tennessee Oilers / Titans part is confusing. I would just change to the Tennessee Titans or add a note explanation that the team changed locations and names during his tenure.
• In the lead, you use the acronym NFL in the first paragraph (as part of 1953 NFL draft) but then define it in the second paragraph. You just define the acronym once and then use the acronym the rest of the way (MOS:ACRO).
• I know later on in the article you discuss who considers him "one of the greatest scouts in football history", but it would be nice to touch on that in the league such as His colleagues considered him one of...
• Texas Longhorn football is linked twice in the body of the article.

More to come. Leaving these for now. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 23:00, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Image review

• Suggest adding alt text

• Is any credit for the lead image provided in the newspaper source? Nikkimaria (talk) 04:24, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
  • Newspapers.com is down currently, so I'll need a little while to get to the second point. As for the alt text, I've never quite understood how it works but I think I added it here? Did I do that right? BeanieFan11 (talk) 12:02, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

The Spider (magazine)

Nominator(s): Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:37, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

This article is about one of the hero pulps that were popular during the 1930s. It includes everything I've been able to find on the topic. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:37, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Images are appropriately licensed. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:22, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Comments from Thebiguglyalien

This one looks interesting. I'll have a review posted within a few days. If you or any other reviewer is interested, I currently have an open FAC that could use more feedback. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 02:19, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks -- I should be able to take a look at that FAC in the next few days. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:22, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

General notes:

• Several points throughout the article where a comma is used to connect a dependent clause.
• Any info about the legacy or influence of this work? Or was it essentially forgotten after WWII?

Lead:

• "such as a metal-eating virus, or giant robots" & "planning to sell human flesh as meat" – These feel like the specific details that are better left for the body.
• "Bittner had had experience" – I know this is correct, but would a single "had" still be correct?
• "New York would be miraculously resurrected" & "characters killed in one issue reappearing unscathed" – Inconsistent tense
• Supporting characters, Legend in Blue Steel, editor rewriting, Scott's influence on the rest of the series, the art, and the existence of short stories are all things that could be mentioned in the lead. The latter seems especially important since the short stories were their own aspect of the magazine independent of the main novel.

Publication history:

• "In 1931 Street & Smith" – A comma should follow "In 1931". But given how many commas this would put in the sentence, it might be better to rewrite it altogether.
• "It was an immediate success" – Is there any context for this? What constituted a success for this sort of thing?
• "Lead characters in mystery stories in the 1920s" – Two "in"s could be avoided with "in 1920s mystery stories"
• "antagonists, and very rarely killed" – Either "antagonists and very rarely killed" or "antagonists, and they very rarely killed". The comma is currently used to combine a dependent clause instead of an independent clause.
• "and it is possible that" – Is this an idea held by a specific source (in which case in-text attribution might be appropriate), or a generally accepted idea?
• "was presented as by" – Can this be reworded?
• "almost the end of the magazine's run" – Reword?

Scott, Page, Tepperman and Bittner:

• I'm not sure about using the writers' names as the subheading here. It would make sense if the next subsection were a different set of writers, but it's currently just being used as a summary of the entire plot and setting for the main novels.
• "secret identity" is typically understood to mean the civilian identity rather than the hero identity. This is both here and in the lead.
• Scott's Secret Service Smith – This is a little vague. Maybe "Scott's previous character, Secret Service Smith" (assuming I read this correctly)
• "Nita Van Sloan, who occasionally took on the identity of The Spider herself" – This stands out to me as significant. Were there a lot of female characters in hero pulp who got involved in the action?
• The structure of the second paragraph here seems strange. It starts with "Other regular characters included", but then it just describes one, and then ends the sentence. Maybe "Other regular characters included Professor Brownlee and Police Commissioner Stanley Kirkpatrick. Brownlee was..."
• "Scott's two novels" – This might be worded in a way so that the reader remembers they're the first two.
• "he would mark their bodies with a red spider" – This makes it sound like an actual live spider until the next sentence.
• "his appearance at well" – at will?

Internal inconsistencies:

• "Murray cites Spider novels in which the villain is revealed to have been only a minor character in the plot" – This seems to be a characterization or structure problem rather than a logic or inconsistency problem.
• Besides the damage to New York, this section doesn't really provide any specific examples, which might be beneficial if there were any that appear prominently in the sources.

Short stories and non-fiction features:

• "The first issue included" – Is there a benefit to naming the specific stories of the first issue, especially if no further info about them is given?
• I'm understanding that these short stories did not feature The Spider and were otherwise entirely unrelated to the character? The article doesn't say this explicitly.
• Occasionally story elements – Comma
• Not a review comment but just a stray thought: I wonder if the concept of reader's clubs warrant their own article. I know Marvel had an active one as late as the 1960s or 1970s.
• that concealed a rubber stamp that would – Can one of these "that"s be removed?
• The story about the fire is interesting, but I don't know how well it fits into the article. Did this affect Page's ability to work on the series?

Art:

• "almost always included sketchese" – Extra "e"?

Bibliographic details:

• The table definitively says who was the editor for what issues, but the prose says that it's unclear.
• "The editor was initially Rogers Terrill" – I suggest switching this to "Rogers Terrill was the initial editor"
• Other media probably doesn't need to be its own subsection, or even its own paragraph for that matter. I suggest combining it with the previous sentence for a slightly longer paragraph per MOS:PARA.

Ping me with any thoughts or if all of the comments are addressed. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 15:25, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

UC

Will look at this, though others are welcome to jump in ahead of me. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 16:39, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Mountain pigeon

Nominator(s): AryKun (talk) 16:45, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Been a while since I've nominated anything here, so thought I might as well put some of my older articles through here. This is about a genus of pigeons from Indonesia and it's pretty short, so have fun! AryKun (talk) 16:45, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

• Support I couldn't find anything significant that you hadn't covered, even a parasite! Jimfbleak - talk to me? 12:35, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

Gog the Mild

Recusing to review. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:00, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

• List of species: the "Scientific name" column, as well as the scientific name, has a person's surname and a date. What does this indicate? Why are two in brackets and two not? What does the date indicate?
  • Expanded the note to explain this; brackets is already covered in the note.
• List of species: Is there any rationale for the ordering of the list?
  • As stated at the top of the table, it's in taxonomic sequence.
• List of species: Would it be possible to write out LC in full, to make it understandable to the non-expert? And why is "IUCN" added in superscript after each status?
  • It's a template, so no; IUCN links directly to the IUCN webpage.

• Note a: What is a "A binomial authority"? I rather doubt that a non-aficionado will be able to make sense of sentence. Would it be possible to paraphrase it in plain English?
  • Glossed.
• Could you add the OCLC to Salvadori. (820904343)
  • Done.
• "And Matthews - 62578303.
  • Done.
• I note that virtually no OCLCs nor ISBNs are used. Is there a reason?
  • Most of the publications are in journals and so have neither; the books with no ISBNs are very old and wouldn't have those.
• Is a publisher location available for Gibbs et al?
  • Added.
• "at least 10–40 birds". "At least" indicates a minimum. It seems strange to follow it with not only a range, but a broad range. Does the "40" indicate the upper end of flock size? Reading on, the form of words in the main article seems clearer.
  • Removed "at least"; I think it reads better now.
• "currently contains four species". You said that in the first sentence.
  • Removed.
• "All four species of mountain pigeon are medium-sized pigeons". Are any numbers available, to indicate what counts as medium sized in pigeons?
  • Added.
• "woooooo m". Is the gap before the final letter deliberate or a typo?
  • Deliberate.
• "pale mountain pigeon near fruiting trees can also have more than 100 individuals." Suggest deleting "also".
  • Done.

• "making a loud whooshing noise". Is this a vocalisation?
  • Made with wings; clarified in text.
• "They mostly forage in the canopy". Perhaps an in line definition of "canopy" in parentheses?
  • I think canopy's a common enough word.

Nice work. Mostly nit pickery above. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:11, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

All the Light We Cannot See

Nominator(s): Lazman321 (talk) 05:44, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

All the Light We Cannot See is a 2014 novel written by Anthony Doerr, released to critical acclaim and commercial success. A Netflix adaptation will be released on November 2, 2023. This is my second nomination. I withdrew my previous nomination because of an academic summer program that prevented me from finding time to address the critiques raised. Since then, I have found time to address some points brought up in the previous candidacy. I hope to finish this candidacy in time for nominating it as the TFA on the date of, if not the release of the adaptation, the novel's tenth anniversary. I would prefer suggestions to be specific rather than overly general; telling me there are still prose issues is not good enough unless you tell me what those issues are. Lazman321 (talk) 05:44, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

MyCatIsAChonk

• and Werner Pfennig, a bright German boy who is accepted into a military school because of his skills in radio technology, before being sent to the military. - the comma after technology is confusing, since commas were previously used in that sentence to list characters and then to describe them. Either cut the comma or "before being..." entirely

• Done: Removed the clause. Lazman321 (talk) 16:09, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

• The novel is written in a lyrical style - I'm not too sure what this means- is it a novel-in-verse?

• That's not what lyrical means. Lyrical has been defined as "having an artistically beautiful or expressive quality suggestive of song" [1], "expressing personal thoughts and feelings in a beautiful way" [2], and "expressing strong emotion in a way that is beautiful and shows imagination" [3]. It's basically saying the writing style is expressive. Lazman321 (talk) 16:09, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

Now I see, thanks for clarifying MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 22:03, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

• and almost all of the chapters alternate between Marie-Laure's and Werner's stories, which parallel each other. The narrative has a nonlinear structure, flashing between the Battle of Saint-Malo and the events leading up to it. - do the chapters flash between Laure's and Werner's stories, or between the Battle and events before? There's conflicting info here, as far as I'm reading it

• It's both, actually. I've rewritten the two sentences for clarity. Lazman321 (talk) 16:09, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

• It might be worth clarifying the whole "alternating timeline" thing at the start of "Plot", before the first subsection

• Won't that be redundant, given the analysis section discusses the alternating timeline? Lazman321 (talk) 16:09, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

IMO, it would still be helpful, since it's divided into subsections; Memento (film) has a sentence to clarify the odd timeline of the film, even though it has an entire subsection called "Film structure". MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 22:03, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

• who spends his time broadcasting old records of his dead brother across Europe - he broadcasts records formerly owned by his brother? Or recordings of his brother?

• I've rewritten the sentence for clarity. The brother had recorded audio recordings that were meant to teach science. Lazman321 (talk) 16:09, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

• transmitting secret messages alongside - "alongside" seems like the wrong word- "through" makes more sense

• Done, though I also removed the piano recording information as they were broadcast alongside the messages, but is not significant for the sake of summary. Lazman321 (talk) 16:09, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

• Wl amnesiac

• Done Lazman321 (talk) 16:09, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

• During this, von Rumpel unsuccessfully searches the entire house - "entire house" suggests he also searched the attic where the gem is

• Done: Removed "entire". Lazman321 (talk) 16:09, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

More soon MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 12:57, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

@MyCatIsAChonk: Addressed your concerns so far. Lazman321 (talk) 16:09, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

• a fact that amazed him once told by his editor because of how old he perceived the buildings to be - the interjection of "once told by his editor" is a bit confusing, I think it'd be better in commas before this sentence: "Saint-Malo was a coastal city that had been destroyed near the end of World War II;[6] when his editor told him this, he was amazed..."
• Wl procrastinating
• Doerr read diaries and letters written and sent - letters are written and sent, but not diaries; IMO, just written is fine
• Wl fate
• All the Light We Cannot See portrays "the desolation and barbarism of war." - period outside of quotes per WP:QINQ
• NPR is not italicized; in the cite afterward, it should be the publisher, not the website/work name
• Josh Cook of the Star Tribune and Yvonne Zipp of The Christian Science Monitor considered All the Light We Cannot See to be Doerr's best book - also an IMO, but the reviewer names are not needed; wrapping it into "multiple critics" is appropriate
• while Alan Cheuse found it annoying.[51] Contrasting the praise, some critics felt that the novel was overwritten - using "contrasting" right after naming a criticism of the book sort of defeats the purpose; cutting the ind claue would be fine
• Anytime the title of the book is said in a citation title, it must be italicized per MOS:CONFORMTITLE

Lazman321, all done, very nice work, and thanks for the quick replies above! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 00:53, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Comments by Nick-D

I developed the Battle of Saint-Malo article to FA status, and will comment on the article largely from that perspective (noting I haven't read the book):

• "after Paris is invaded by Nazi Germany" - there was no such country as 'Nazi Germany'. It was just 'Germany'.
• "with chapters depicting the Battle of Saint-Malo interspersed with the events leading up to it." - I'd suggest noting here when the battle took place (e.g. 'the August 1944 Battle of Saint-Malo' or similar)
• " after Allied forces bomb the hotel" - while the book may not be specific here, almost all firepower used in the battle was from American artillery and aircraft
• "Werner is captured and sent to an American disarmament center" - he would have been sent to a prisoner of war camp
• "a fact that amazed him once told by his editor because of how old he perceived the buildings to be" - this is true for a lot of European cities, which were rebuilt to resemble their pre-war selves. The wording here is also a bit clunky.
• The para starting with 'Critics praised All the Light We Cannot See's lyrical writing' should attribute all of the views noted, rather than attributing them to nameless critics
• Have any historians commented on the book's accuracy?
• This article offers useful analysis of how the book fits into the literature on the war, yet isn't properly used - it's simply one of a few references to a broad statement that "some critics felt that the novel was overwritten", when it actually provides quite a complex critique that among other things argues that the book presents the Germans as no worse than the Allies. This Guardian review is much more positive, but briefly notes similar concerns, but doesn't appear to be consulted at present.
• I'm not sure why these critical reviews are lumped together while positive reviews are treated separately. More broadly, the 'Publication and reception' reception section seems excessively positive about the book, with criticisms being noted only in passing.
• The way in which the New York Times review is used also doesn't seem properly reflect the reviewer's conclusions. The article summaries them as the book being fast paced and a Nazi character being badly realised, when the review is actually quite critical, arguing that while the book is highly readable it's ultimately disappointing as a work of literature and is a somewhat lightweight 'good read' (see the last para of the review)
• The article could include some photos of the battle that illustrate the book's themes - there are lots available on Commons.
• Some of the prose is rather cumbersome and wordy, which makes the article heavy going to read. In particular (though I'd suggest a broader copy edit):
  • "Doerr's first inspiration for All the Light We Cannot See..." (could be something like 'Doerr drew inspiration from...')
  • " During the ride, he witnessed a passenger become frustrated when his telephone call disconnected as the train entered a tunnel" (bit wordy)
  • "a fact that amazed him once told by his editor because of how old he perceived the buildings to be"
  • "part of which was spent procrastinating or researching" (rather different things!)
  • "According to Doerr, he procrastinated by writing the memoir Four Seasons in Rome (2007) and the short story collection Memory Wall (2010)" - not really procrastinating then! This seems to be portraying the book from the author's perspective rather than a more common perspective. It's quite common for authors to work on multiple books, or books to take a lot of work to complete.
  • "He cited the research as a reason for his procrastination" - this also doesn't seem to be procrastinating, and this para by this stage has used three sentences to not say a great deal.
  • "the austere conditions of its occupying military lives" - I'm not sure what this means to be frank
  • "it also showcases optimism and redemption" - I don't think that 'showcases' is the best word here.
• "Anthony Doerr found the novel's popularity unexpected due to it featuring a sympathetic Nazi" - this is odd. There's a huge literature with 'good Germans' of World War II being major characters, especially from the Cold War era. Some now-notorious Nazi war criminals like Albert Speer also had success in portraying themselves as being a 'good Nazi' on various grounds - Speer did this though his memoirs, which sold in vast numbers. Doerr doesn't seem to be well informed about the literature on the war if he believes this, and it would be good to draw on sources that discuss the book in this context instead like the New Republic article.
• More broadly, and this might reflect my interests/biases, the article would benefit from a section or at least paragraphs that focus on the book's portrayal of the war and the Battle of Saint-Malo; this appears to be a key element of the work and its popularity, but the article doesn't directly grapple with it. Nick-D (talk) 11:01, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

WWJ-TV

Nominator(s): Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 17:42, 22 September 2023 (UTC), User:Nathan Obral

Ask either of us about the most culturally significant TV station we've written and this will be our unequivocal answer. Channel 62 in Detroit started life in September 1975, after a years-long struggle to secure financing, as WGPR-TV, the first Black-owned TV station in the United States. Owned by a Black Masonic group, it was a high-visibility station at its launch with very ambitious programming plans, key portions of which never materialized. However, some of its local shows stuck, and it produced a string of notable local and national Black broadcast professionals. In 1994, a major TV station affiliation switch swept the nation and left CBS looking for a new affiliate in Detroit. CBS failed to secure a better station, and the desperate network bought WGPR-TV from the International Free and Accepted Modern Masons, in the process removing the Black- and community-oriented programming channel 62 had long carried (and raising some community outcry). Today, the former WGPR studios are on the National Register of Historic Places, and in the old TV studio is a museum devoted to its history.

CBS renamed the station WWJ-TV, for the radio station it owned there. For many years, it never thoroughly invested in this high-number station. It floated but quickly abandoned an attempt to start a news department in 1995; upon merging with WKBD-TV, that station's ailing news department briefly extended to channel 62 before dying; and there was a morning weather-and-news program for a few years. That changed in a big way in February, when a full online streaming service and news department known as CBS News Detroit debuted.

This is a big dog of a project, and it's one that we have found quite fulfilling. It is also Nathan's first time at FAC. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 17:42, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Image review

• Don't use fixed px size
  • Fixed by script.
• File:William_V._Banks.jpg needs a stronger FUR. Why is it necessary to visually identify the individual here, when he has his own article?
  • Also leaving room for Nathan to chime in. The association with WGPR-TV and Banks is incredibly strong—the museum in the former WGPR studio is named for him. I can understand the concern and that typically images like this are restricted to the subject's biography. It'd make sense to beef up the FUR, but Nikkimaria, do you think it should just be removed at this point?
  • Nathan here! For some context, Dr. Banks founded the Modern Masons in 1950, led the organization when it purchased WGPR radio and was instrumental in WGPR-TV even taking to the air. It even became a family affair of sorts; his daughter gave up a career as a college instructor to manage the station's day-to-day affairs. Station personnel have credited Dr. Banks for making them look beyond a show's budget to focus on the substance. That was largely why I had chosen to include his picture here, as he was almost inextricable. Nathan Obral • he/him • t • c • 05:54, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

• • • I'm certainly not going to argue for excising any discussion of him, but I'm not convinced there is significant value to including a non-free image of him. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:20, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

      @Nikkimaria Decided to remove the photo here. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 06:47, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

      Yeah, this wasn’t a dealbreaker in any way. I’m fine with the removal. :) Nathan Obral • he/him • t • c • 15:43, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

• File:WGPR_TV.png has an incomplete FUR
  • Fixed by switching to {{Non-free use rationale logo}}.
• File:WWJTV_CBS_Detroit.png: if this is non-free it will need a stronger FUR, but why is it believed this is non-free and the lead logo is too simple to warrant copyright protection? They are of similar design so it seems logical either they are both free or they are both non-free.
  • Frankly, an editor in 2009 who probably didn't know about PD-textlogo. That's the correct designation, imo, and I've retagged it appropriately. Comments to here: Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 05:38, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

Nikkimaria (talk) 04:35, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Duffield Memorial

Nominator(s): Usernameunique (talk) 06:09, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Relatively inconspicuous, somewhat overgrown, and more than a hundred years old, the Duffield Memorial sits in the yard of a church nearly a millennium older. Overshadowed as it is, however, the memorial tells an interesting story. An early work by Herbert Maryon, it commemorates members of a prominent local family. At the time, it was considered "quite unique, at any rate in this neighbourhood", and even now, it is an "unusual example of Art Nouveau design in metal work".

This article gives a thorough overview of the memorial and the surrounding context. It was thoroughly reviewed in March by KJP1; since then, TheShinji69 was able to take photos, and I've given the article another review. The article is at, or close to, the best possible version of itself, and so is ready to be nominated here. --Usernameunique (talk) 06:09, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Comments by Wehwalt

• "roles as director and chairman of a range of businesses, including the Reliance Life Assurance Company, the London Board of the Norwich Union, the Chelmsford and Braintree Gas Companies, and the Chelmsford and Blackwater Navigation Company" He was director AND chairman of each of this, or should it be "or"?

• Both, except for the second position where the source notes him as chairman but doesn't mention director. I've reworded it accordingly. --Usernameunique (talk) 21:07, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

• 1918[footnotes]) Don't footnotes usually follow punctuation except in the case of a long dash?

• Normally yes. In sentences like this, however, with parenthetical about individual people, I tend to keep the citations in each parenthetical, so it is clear which are about whom. --Usernameunique (talk) 21:02, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

• Where is William Bartleet Duffield buried? France? Here? Do we know who ordered the monument and also had the second plaque affixed? Someone presumably paid. Do we know how much?

• It's unclear. Another look at newspaper articles from the time, however, found an article about his probate that discusses leaving some of his estate to his niece, along with £100 for "a memento". That probably answers the question of who paid for it, and gives an idea of cost. (Although according to the Bank of England, that £100 is worth some £4,700 today—presumably there was some left over after the plaque.) I’ve added this to the article (in a footnote, since it's not definitive). Meanwhile, even a turn through the primary sources doesn't address where he was buried. --Usernameunique (talk) 22:27, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

• Is there anything that can be said about the drive to list the memorial?

• Unfortunately no. I sent emails to both Historic England and the church when writing the email, but did't get a reply from either. I'll follow up, but am not optimistic. --Usernameunique (talk) 19:33, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Interesting.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:48, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, Wehwalt. Responses above. --Usernameunique (talk) 22:32, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Support with reservations on the issue of comprehensiveness, per my queries above. I will continue to monitor and hopefully I can make this a full support.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:51, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

Based on KJP1's comments, I'm going to withdraw my reservations, leaving my support. Very well done with what was available. Wehwalt (talk) 17:13, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Comments by RoySmith

Lead section

• William Ward Duffield is a red link to W. W. Duffield, but other members of the family who are mentioned are left unlinked. Is there some reason to believe William Ward in particular is notable enough that he might merit an article in the future?

• There are a number of articles on him and A. S. Duffield—the two red links in the article—that indicate that they clear the notability threshold. That might be true for others also, but those ones seemed clear when looking up the people mentioned in the article. --Usernameunique (talk) 23:43, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

• The memorial covers the grave. Is this a single grave in which Marianne, William Ward, and William Bartleet are all buried?

• Yes, at least as to the first two. Per a newspaper article on W. W. Duffield's burial, "the interment [was] in the grave where the remains already rested of the late Mrs. Duffield", and per a 1912 article on the memorial, it was "erected … over the grave of Mr. and Mrs. Duffield". As noted above, however, it's unclear whether William Bartleet Duffield was also buried there, or simply commemorated there. --Usernameunique (talk) 23:00, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

• Starting with The memorial covers the grave... There's three sentences in a row of the form "fact 1 and fact 2", which sounds stilted. Maybe something like "The Art Nouveau memorial, comprised of edging and a vertical cross, covers the grave. The edging consists of riveted sections of copper alloy sheet metal which follow the rectangular perimeter of the plot, connected by short pillars at each corner. The cross is of the celtic wheel variety, decorated in relief with a leaflike motif." Well, you get the idea. Longer sentences will flow better, and try not to repeat the same sentence structure over and over. Also try to avoid repeated words, such as in "The cross is a Celtic wheel cross".

• Reworded, how does it read now? --Usernameunique (talk) 03:34, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

• Works of Herbert Maryon says the memorial is "Bronze", this article says it's a copper alloy. Bronze is indeed a copper alloy, but why not just call it bronze here?

Just to clarify, I see that the source used calls it "copper alloy", but it's worth exploring why Works of Herbert Maryon calls it "bronze" and reconcile the differences.

• Changed to bronze. The reason for the discrepancy is that the 1912 articles say bronze, whereas Historic England says copper alloy. I think we're safe relying on the latter. --Usernameunique (talk) 23:06, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

• Newspapers at the time termed the memorial "very fine" and "quite unique" for the area,[1][2] and in 2022 it was designated a Grade II listed building. this is an odd juxtaposition of things that happened 100 years ago and something that happened recently. For the lead, I'd mention the Grade II listing and leave out the minor newspaper quotes.

• The article is quite short (DYK check says 5979 readable prose). MOS:LEADLENGTH suggests one or two paragraphs for under 15k. and this is 1/3 of that, so I'd say trim the lead to about half its current length, covering the most important facts from the main body. For example, I'd note that it's Grade II listed, but leave all the details for later.

The Duffields

• William Ward Duffield was born on 25 November 1820 to James Duffield, I assume James had the assistance of his wife in this. Do we know her name or anything about her?

• Somewhat surprisingly, there's very little information on either James Duffield or his presumed wife. The father is likely the Mr. James Duffield who died in 1830, leaving "a widow and large family to bewail", but it's not definitive, and articles about the family don't seem to mention the mother. There are also mentions of a James Duffield and Joanna Ward Duffield (buried in the same churchyard as the Duffield Memorial) but, again, it's supposition based on primary sources. --Usernameunique (talk) 02:31, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

• He went on to become a successful solicitor, who is "He"? William Ward or James?

• William, clarified. --Usernameunique (talk) 02:32, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

• including as clerk Drop the "as".

• Done. --Usernameunique (talk) 02:33, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

• His private positions included a number of roles, drop the "a number of roles", just tell us what they were. As before, in and as chairman, no need for "as". You can "Be X" or "Serve as X", but don't mix the idioms.

• Done, and generally tightened up that sentence. --Usernameunique (talk) 02:35, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

• Duffield married Marianne Bartleet, there's a lot of Duffields being discussed; be explicit about which one you're talking about in this sentence.

• Done. --Usernameunique (talk) 02:36, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

• three surviving children: William Bartleet Duffield (1861–1918[8][9][10]), Arthur Stewart Duffield (1867–1930[11][12]), and Florence Marion Duffield No need to keep saying "Duffield". I'd write this as "three surviving children: William Bartleet (1861–1918[8][9][10]), Arthur Stewart (1867–1930[11][12]), and Florence Marion". I suppose we can infer gender from their first names, but that can sometimes be tricky, so perhaps " sons William Bartleet (...) and Arthur Stewart (...), and daughter Florence Marion"?

• Done. --Usernameunique (talk) 02:39, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

Herbert Maryon

• It's good to give some explanation of who this guy is beyond "he designed the thing", but this level of detail into Maryon's resume seems excessive. Are there some parts of his prior experience which would be particularly relevant to gaining the skills needed for this design?

Description

• 75 metres (246 ft) per MOS:UNCERTAINTY, you can't convert a measurement with two significant figures into one with three. It should be "75 metres (250 ft). I believe {{convert}} has a parameter to control that.

• Good point, done. --Usernameunique (talk) 01:53, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

• As above, saying "bronze" rather than "copper alloy" would seem to make more sense, unless there's some good reason not to do so. In which case, maybe Works of Herbert Maryon needs fixing :-)

• Fixed as per above. --Usernameunique (talk) 01:53, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

• The cross ... features a Celtic wheel cross avoid repetition of "cross".

• Reworded. --Usernameunique (talk) 01:50, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

• a medallion, now removed... Do we know why or when it was removed?

• No, unfortunately, nor have I been able to find any photos of the memorial from before the removal. There was some discussion of this at the GAN review. --Usernameunique (talk) 01:55, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

• Two copper plaques are riveted ... The west-facing plaque Avoid repeating "plaque". Perhaps "... the west-facing one"?

• Done. --Usernameunique (talk) 01:57, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

History

• The organisation cited historic interest, architectural interest avoid repetition of "interest".

• Reworded. --Usernameunique (talk) 23:55, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

• Historic England termed the memorial "an unusual example of churchyard memorial design that is also memorial to prominent local citizen William Ward Duffield and his son you can't do anything about HE's repetition of "memorial", but at least don't compound it with another one of your own :-)

• Reworded. --Usernameunique (talk) 23:56, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Gallery

I'm not sure this section adds anything. The first image ("Plaque on the front of the Duffield Memorial's pedestal") could be incorporated into the main body, and "St. Mary's churchyard (Duffield Memorial not visible)" doesn't add anything to the reader's understanding of the memorial, since it's not visible in the photo.

Done. --Usernameunique (talk) 23:53, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

General organization

I'm a little concerned that as much space is given to peripheral topics (the entire Background section) as is to the main topic. In particular (as I noted above), I think the Herbert Maryon section could be trimmed considerably. I'd also move the Description section up closer to the top of the article, since that's the main topic.

GWL

Interesting article. I'll take a look at what I see so far, then take other editors' comments for consideration after my comments are resolved. I've put invisible comments to divide my comments based on sections. GeraldWL 08:56, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

• Would be great if infobox img caption states when the img is taken "(pictured XXXX)"

• Done. --Usernameunique (talk) 01:59, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

• Is there any way in which the gallery imgs are placable at the body?

• Done. Placed one of the two in the body, and removed the other per an above comment. --Usernameunique (talk) 01:59, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

• Images need alt text. Per W3C, "Note that it does not necessarily describe the visual characteristics of the image itself but must convey the same meaning as the image."

• Done. --Usernameunique (talk) 02:01, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

• Are there no columns for the Times ref?

• I'm not sure what you mean here. There are two Times refs, both obituaries, which are both noted as being in the "Obituary" column for that day. Did you mean something else? --Usernameunique (talk) 04:56, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

• Ah, I didn't know the Obituary was the column name. AFAIK Times refs always have an alphabetical column, like p. 27 col. E, or something like that. It's alright, though. GeraldWL 07:14, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

• Interesting. I don't see those for these ones; the full page for the Maryon obit is here, if you'd like a look. --Usernameunique (talk) 07:26, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

• Would be great if all Newspaper.com refs have a "via Newspapers.com" using the via parameter

• Thanks for catching that; I normally do that, but evidently forgot to here. --Usernameunique (talk) 04:52, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

• Link to whatever edging means here, it could mean several things

• I took a look at both edge and edging but neither seem to have anything on point—and, as your invisible comment goes to show, some that are very much not on point. We could perhaps include a link to edging on Wiktionary, but that suffers from the same problem, i.e., there are a number of definitions, only one of which is what is meant here. --Usernameunique (talk) 05:18, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

• I guess I was being too overanalytical here lmao. GeraldWL 07:14, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

• If sheet metal is linked here, should be too in infobox

• Done. --Usernameunique (talk) 05:20, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

• "The cross is a Celtic wheel cross"-- repetition of cross --> "The cross is in the Celtic wheel style"

• Reworded. --Usernameunique (talk) 05:23, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

• Why not paraphrase the third para? If it's too short then it can be merged with para 2.

• Done, and generally shortened. --Usernameunique (talk) 07:32, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

• "Chelmsford-based", "London-based"

• Done. --Usernameunique (talk) 05:26, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

• "included [...], including [...], including"-- repetition. first "including" could be changed to "such as", second "including" to "like"

• Reworded. --Usernameunique (talk) 05:27, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

• Why are some names redlinked, some not?

• As noted above, the two that are red linked are the two that I thought clearly met the notability guideline. Others might also, but there was enough coverage on those two in particular that red links seemed worthwhile. --Usernameunique (talk) 05:31, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

• Link Reading, Berkshire

• Done. --Usernameunique (talk) 05:29, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

• Dup link for Uni of Reading

• The second actually links to the University of Reading War Memorial. --Usernameunique (talk) 05:33, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

• My bad!

• "After the Second World War"-- comma

• Done. --Usernameunique (talk) 05:34, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

• "Sutton Hoo ship-burial led to his appointment"-- WP:SEAOFBLUE

• It's now "Sutton Hoo ship-burial led to his appointment". Still a decent amount of blue, but at least it's now broken up. --Usernameunique (talk) 05:36, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

• Link Church of St Mary

• It's already linked in the background section; are you suggesting a second link? --Usernameunique (talk) 05:38, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

• Duplicate refs of [1][2][3]

• Responded to two comments below. --Usernameunique (talk) 07:01, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

• Would love to have a footnote for LUX PERPETUA LUCEAT EIS (translation), and link AIX LES BAINS

• For the time being, I've linked the Latin to Eternal Rest, which gives the translation and background. I also put in a request for what appears to be a reliable source that discusses the topic, and (once in hand) will update accordingly, probably with a footnote. For Aix-les-Bains, I've now added that it was W. B. Duffield's place of death, with accompanying link. --Usernameunique (talk) 06:41, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

• I found this by Oxford that contains a translation, though I don't think you need to delve deep into the phrase, worrying it might go offtopic.

• That would work, but I'd like to add a one-sentence footnote saying something like "'May perpetual light shine upon them', a line from the Requiem æternam prayer." I'm looking for a reliable source for the second clause, and I think the chapter in question may work. --Usernameunique (talk) 07:12, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

• How about this? It does state the Requiem name. GeraldWL 07:16, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

• Dup refs of [3] in paras 2, 3, 4

• Preferences vary, but I strongly prefer citing every sentence. It's more precise, and there's less risk that later edits make it unclear what is cited to what. --Usernameunique (talk) 06:45, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

• Dup refs [1][2]

• Ditto the above. --Usernameunique (talk) 06:45, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

• I would love for a brief descriptor of what a Grade II listed building means.

• Done (and for Grade I, for the church). --Usernameunique (talk) 06:59, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

• Dup refs [3]

• As per above. --Usernameunique (talk) 06:59, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

• In the listed building article, Grade II is given asterisk but why not here?

• Grade II and Grade II* are different things. Grade II signifies "buildings that are of special interest", and the asterisk indicates "particularly important buildings of more than special interest". Why they couldn't simplify things by just doing Grades I/II/III is beyond me. --Usernameunique (talk) 02:15, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks very much for your comments, Gerald Waldo Luis. I believe I've addressed everything above, with a single exception—for the Latin, let's give it a day or two to see if I can get the source, otherwise I'll use the website you found. --Usernameunique (talk) 07:38, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

No worries, I'll wait until you've reached a conclusion on the source. Also additional comment, should there be a hatnote to Duffield War Memorial?

Thanks, Gerald Waldo Luis. Added a line cited to the book, and added a hat note as suggested. --Usernameunique (talk) 05:50, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

I suggest putting just the page where the translation is present; you don't want people looking for 10ish pages just to get to that point :") GeraldWL 07:27, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, Gerald Waldo Luis, each page cited actually contains the English translation, just under a different denomination. The more important point that's being conveyed, I think, is the ubiquity of that line. --Usernameunique (talk) 06:02, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Support from KJP1

Enjoyed this article at GAN, and not much to add here, certainly nothing to stand in the way of my Support. KJP1 (talk) 08:12, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Lead

• "a Grade II listed building, noting its "unusual" style of churchyard memorial and Art Nouveau metal work" - for me this reads a little awkwardly. Could the "of churchyard memorial" be dropped without loss?

Background: The Duffields

• "become a successful solicitor, founding the Chelmsford-based firm Duffield and Son, and the London-based firm Duffield, Bruty and Co." - perhaps, to avoid the duplication of "firm", "become a successful solicitor, founding two law firms, Duffield and Son in Chelmsford and Duffield, Bruty and Co. in London."?

• Went with almost exactly that: William Duffield went on to become a successful solicitor, founding two firms: Duffield and Son, in Chelmsford, and Duffield, Bruty and Co., in London. --Usernameunique (talk) 06:11, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Herbert Maryon

• Noting the comment above re. length, personally I don't find the detail on Maryon excessive. It's a meaty paragraph, to be sure, but it is only a paragraph. However, if trimming was wanted, the last sentence could be compressed; "A second career as a conservator at the British Museum saw him work on the Sutton Hoo ship-burial, for which he was awarded the Order of the British Empire."

Comprehensiveness

• Noting the very fair point on comprehensiveness, I think the nominator has done the best job that can be done with the sources available. I agree there are unanswered questions; "why Maryon?" / "what happened to the medallion?" etc., but this is a recurring issue when trying to write about "minor" buildings/structures. Personally, I think it meets 1(b) and (c), in that it says all that can be said, drawing on all the available sourcing.

Images and External links

• Given the excellent images the article now has, for which many thanks, I'm not sure the link to the deprecated Find a Grave is necessary, but it's not a deal-breaker for me.

Welcome to New York (song)

Nominator(s): Ippantekina (talk) 06:59, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

As if Taylor Swift was not popular enough, she made a NYC tribute song to keep up with Jay-Z or Frank Sinatra. In my honest opinion, this song will never be considered a NYC tribute classic. But hey, at least the synths are fun to listen to! I believe this article is well-written, well-researched and neutral, and I would appreciate any and all comments. Cheers, Ippantekina (talk) 06:59, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Comments from MusicforthePeople

I don't have too many comments; feel free to ignore those you think are more trivial.

• For the audio link at the bottom of the Infobox, the song title is capitalised as "Welcome To New York" as opposed to "Welcome to New York" as per the rest of the article.

• I adhered to MOS:TITLECAPS. Although the title in the link capitalizes "To" in prose it should not. Ippantekina (talk) 07:44, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

• in support of her fourth album, Red, – needs the year of its release in brackets since that hasn't been established.
• landmark of her life – would "in her life" be better?
• 1980s artists Prince and Cyndi Lauper – I would have put these in alphabetical order.
• Dan Caffrey from Consequence said – pipe this as ''[[Consequence (publication)|Consequence of Sound]]'' as that's what the publication was called at the time. Pipe it in the reference as well.
• In Consequence, Sasha Geffen opined – change this in prose and in the reference to Consequence of Sound per above, but don't link it in prose because that'll be overlinking.
• The A.V. Club needs unlinking in the critical reception section as it is already linked in the previous section.
• For ref #22 (Boston Herald), author should be Jed Gottlieb (per archived ref).
• For ref #67 (Clash), author should be Mat Smith (per archived ref).
• For ref #68 (Billboard), author should Glenn Rowley (per archived ref).

• For Clash and Billboard because there are multiple authors from the editorial board, I wouldn't cite these two specifically as authors of the refs. Hopefully this is understandable. Ippantekina (talk) 07:44, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

That's all I've got. MusicforthePeople (talk) 19:03, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for your review! I've addressed all comments except where I left my remarks. Best, Ippantekina (talk) 07:44, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

All fine by me. Support MusicforthePeople (talk) 08:44, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

I Am the Best

Nominator(s): ɴᴋᴏɴ21 ❯❯❯ talk 14:03, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

This article is about a K-pop song called "I Am the Best" by 2NE1. It is often regarded as a classic in the K-pop world with it being one of the most popular songs that went against the "cute" or "sexy" female stereotypes that were common amongst Korean girl groups around that time. In addition, it was one of the first Korean-language songs (after Gangnam Style) to make waves in the western world upon being featured in a Microsoft commercial, with various critics noting "I Am the Best" as one of the works that helped spread the Korean wave. This is my first featured article nomination, and was also the first article rewritten by me to be upgraded to good article status back in December 2020. After a large amount of edits since then, I believe this article meets FA quality standards. ɴᴋᴏɴ21 ❯❯❯ talk 14:03, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Temple of Apollo Palatinus

Nominator(s): UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 20:54, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

This article is about what was, at least in its day, one of Rome's grandest temples. Built by the not-quite-yet emperor Augustus on the Palatine Hill, the temple played a major role in Rome's religious life and political ideology. It was, by turns, a senate-house, war memorial, public library and distribution centre for sulphur. The article has to wrestle with the deeply complicated issue of the join between ancient text and modern archaeology: the reconstruction of the complex around the temple is deeply controversial and its excavations have not been brilliantly documented. The article has undergone a peer review from Golden, Modussiccandi and Caeciliusinhorto, to whom I am greatly obliged for points both stylistic and substantive, and a Good Article nomination by Simongraham. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 20:54, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Comments from Tim O'D

Claiming a spot now. Review soon-ish. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 20:56, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Ignorant on the subject matter, but having a bash:

• The Temple of Apollo Palatinus ('Palatine Apollo') - is this translated? From Latin, I presume. If so, could use a language template.

• 'Palatine Apollo' is a translation of Apollo Palatinus, but we use language templates for text in the non-English language, and the overall name given ("Temple of Apollo Palatinus") is English in the same way that "Cathedral of Notre Dame" is: we wouldn't put a French language template halfway through that name. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 13:26, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Fair enough. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 22:39, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

• sometimes called the Temple of Actian Apollo,[1] - as this is in Construction, does it need to be cited here too?
• Ditto It has been described by the archaeologist John Ward-Perkins as "one of the earliest and finest of the Augustan temples".[2]

• Quotations are one case where MOS:LEADCITE does want an inline citation: the first is perhaps on the side of caution, but my logic was that "has been called" implies that someone has called it that, and therefore we're effectively quoting them. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 13:26, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

• According to his biographer Suetonius, he claimed to have "found Rome a city of brick, and left it a city of marble".[5] - very famous quote, but is it needed here? Bit of a cliche in my opinion.

• This came up at PR: this is what I put in response there:

It is a very famous quote, and I think there's value in indicating to the reader that Augustus claimed to be engaged in totally rebuilding the city; that claim both gives evidence for what precedes it and useful context for what follows it. John Ward-Perkins uses it in exactly the same way, so there's a secondary-source context for connecting the quotation with the building programme. We could rephrase to something like "Augustus claimed to have totally refounded the city of Rome and to have beautified it in the process", I suppose, but that would seem like a bad swap to me.

Did you have a particular change in mind? UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 13:26, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Not if you're happy with it. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 22:37, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

• senate-house or senate house?

• I opened up a recent academic book to see where they went (the Cambridge Companion to the Age of Nero), and they have one of each. Perhaps a little old-fashioned (certainly seems less common in phrases like charnel house in recent publications): hyphen removed. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 13:26, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

• connection - British English article, so consider using "connexion" instead.

• Reads as very archaic to me, as a native BrE speaker. Wiktionary says it hasn't been common since the 1950s. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 13:26, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Bit of a shame that the original version is slowly receding into the rear mirror of history, but what can you do. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 22:39, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

• Cossutius, a brick-maker employed by Gaius Asinius Pollio, a politician and literary patron of the early Augustan era, was likely involved - try Cossutius, a brick-maker employed by Gaius Asinius Pollio—a politician and literary patron of the early Augustan era—was likely involved.

Good idea: done. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 13:26, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

More to come. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 13:15, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Funk

• Will have a look soon. FunkMonk (talk) 21:45, 21 September 2023 (UTC)
• At first glance, Diana and Attica are WP:duplinked.
  • Much appreciated - thank you. Fixed those two duplinks: for some reason, the "highlight duplicate links" doesn't seem to be working for me. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 07:45, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
• Not your fault, but it's unfortunate that this image[4] doesn't have an info template on Commons, looks like a mess.
• Shouldn't Rome be linked? And link Roman tradition and Greek world perhaps?
  • MOS:OVERLINK advises against linking current national capitals and countries. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 22:26, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
• "whose worship originated in the Greek world, was considered a 'foreign' deity" Isn't that the case for most Roman gods?
  • Afraid not. It's a long story, but in short, the two traditions descend from the same source, so while the Greeks and Romans both have the "same" god as Jupiter/Zeus, it isn't accurate to say that the Romans "got" Jupiter from the Greeks. However, Apollo doesn't seem to be part of that inherited tradition, but rather to have spread into Etruscan and Roman religion directly from contact with Greek cities. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 22:26, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
• "against Mark Antony, Octavian" Could specify what their occupations/ranks were to contextualise their roles?
  • Neither concept really works all that well in ancient Rome, particularly not at this time. We've already introduced Octavian as the controller of the Roman state, and Antony as his enemy in the civil war: I think that's enough for what's needed in this context. Adding that both were former consuls would be distracting and somewhat tangential to the point at hand: that status had very little to do with either of them being in the position they were. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 22:26, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
• "who reports having read it in the Greek author Asclepias of Mendes" How does someone read something in an author?
  • A classicist-ism ("I read it in Homer" = "I read it in the works of Homer"): changed. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 22:26, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
• Link Augustus and Apollo in image caption, as well as other terms not linked in captions.
  • All relevant terms now linked on first use in captions. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 22:26, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
• "already considered particularly sacred" For what reason?
  • I don't think there was a particular reason: there isn't a sharp divide between sacred and non-sacred ground in Roman culture, which is where the adverb particularly came from. The whole Palatine was somewhat sacred in that it was the site of Rome's original foundation, ordained by the gods as the seat of Romulus's city; to a lesser extent, that was true of the whole city, and we get a very good sense from Aeneid 8 of the generally but non-specifically numinous feel of the place to the Romans of Augustus' time. The sources are clear that this specific site was more sacred than the rest, but don't go into detail as to why - I don't expect anyone in 36 BCE could have given you a clear answer. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 22:26, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
• State what Apollo was the god of?
  • The "god of" concept doesn't work very well for classical religion: it's better to think of gods as being associated with or patrons of certain things (which may overlap with the purviews of other gods). Apollo is associated with a big bunch of vaguely-related things. From the Background section, Apollo was held in Roman culture to represent discipline, morality, purification and the punishment of excess: I think that's the best explanation (it's Zanker's) that gets the point across without going into the tiny minutiae. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 22:26, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
• "Greek art was held to have an "acknowledged moral superiority"" But why would the temple of a Greek god then be considered unfit for being within the city?
  • Those two things aren't the same: Greek art is very different to Greek gods, and the specific belief that only Roman gods should be enshrined within the pomerium never implied that nothing Greek should exist there. I strongly suspect that this "belief" only existed in retrospect (Juno, who was meant to have originally been a goddess of Veii, had temples within the city), but that would be OR to include: the sources all report it as fact. Remember that there's also a big time gap here: we're talking about the mid-fifth century BCE for the founding of Apollo Sosianus (and so the alleged prohibition on a temple within the pomerium), while Apollo Palatinus (and the "moral superiority of Greek art") is four centuries later, by which time building a temple to Apollo within the city clearly isn't a problem. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 22:26, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Comments from Elias

Already skimmed this very interesting article. I'll leave my comments shortly.el.ziade (talkallam) 07:15, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

• Consider linking first instances and image captions: tripod, Marcus Valerius Messalla Messallinus, Greek, Latin, Augustan poetry, laurel trees, antithetical, Romulus, foundation of Rome, Apollo Citharoedus, Danaus, Pediment, Celtic or Brennus (3rd century BC), candelabrum.

• Mostly done, except for languages per (e.g. MOS:LINKEXAMPLES and MOS:OVERLINK and antithesis on similar grounds (the article shares a name but is a more specific concept). Thank you for these; some good spots in there. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 13:15, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

• Location section: Excavations from the early twenty-first century indicate that the house was largely destroyed... are you referring to Zink's excavations?
  • I think so: will check later on. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 13:15, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

  Unfortunately, it's not clear, and I was a little more specific about the date than Wiseman allows (now changed). He cites a paper which I can't get hold of from 2006. The excavations in question are of the house, not the temple, so it's likely that they cover projects outside the scope of this article. I've amended to be as specific as I think we can be. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 10:31, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

• Same section: Roma Quadrata without italics, link it please.
  • The italics fit the MoS (it's Latin and not, like Circus Maximus, a naturalised expression in English: indeed, they come from the Latin language template used for it) - now linked on first use. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 13:15, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
• The passage The temple's cult statue of Apollo was depicted on the Sorrento Base, a late-Augustan or early-Tiberian (that is, c. 14 CE) statue plinth first identified as a depiction of it by the German architectural historian Christian Hülsen in 1894. seems out of place, maybe insert in the description section?
  • It needs to be in Reception, as the Sorrento Base was made about half a century after the temple was opened, and wasn't ever part of it. It does make for an awkwardly short paragraph, but only because it's the temple's only real footprint in the visual arts. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 13:15, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
• Other scenes show human beings worshipping sacred objects, do we really want to use "human beings"?
  • I think so, because we're contrasting them with gods, (semi-divine) heroes, and monsters like Medusa. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 13:15, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
• In Excavation section: Arcus Octavi --> Arcus Octavii? Also link first instance to Arch of Octavius in the Architecture section.
  • Good spot; both done. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 13:15, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
• Lead, location, and Excavation section: capitalize Domus in domus Augusti.
  • I don't think that would be correct: it's a description ("the house of Augustus"), not a name. Capitalisation here would be inconsistent with how the cited HQRS do it. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 13:15, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
• Italicize "pronaos" consistently.
  • Done (italicised throughout) UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 13:15, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
• May have more later. el.ziade (talkallam) 09:16, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Comments by RoySmith

Just a few random things I've spotted:

• The lead is four paragraphs, all of which start with "The temple [...] was". Could you find some less repetitive phrasing?
• Infobox: the alt text "Temple of Apollo Palatinus is located in Rome" appears to being picked up automatically from the image title, but it's not useful as a non-visual description. I believe the "map-alt" attribute of {{Infobox ancient site}} will let you set something more useful. Also, the caption "Shown within ancient Rome" doesn't make sense in isolation. Perhaps something like "Location of the temple within ancient Rome"?
• Sculptures and artwork: The image of Apollo Barberini needs an alt text.
• Function: The alt text for Relief with Tripod (49350890031).jpg doesn't do the image justice. I would certainly include that it's a broken fragment of sculpture. Also, while I'm not an expert on this stuff, I think "bas-relief" describes it more accurately than "flat".
• Excavation: add "stone wall" to the alt text.

Thank you for these: all good points and all done. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 15:21, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

SC

Putting down a marker for now. - SchroCat (talk) 22:13, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Comments Support from Tim riley

Nothing much from me – mere quibbles. Adopt or throw out as you wish.

Thank you, as ever, for these, Tim. One I still need to work on, others replied to. No hard disagrees, but a few queries or hesitations. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 15:42, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• General

• I can't work out your thinking about single -v- double quotation marks, but the MoS would have us choose the latter as default.

• In theory, single quotes for Glosses that translate or define unfamiliar terms per MOS:SINGLE, and generally for "scare quotes": that is, terms like 'foreign' deity, where the categorisation was seen as appropriate in its time and the perception of it is vital to understanding, but we wouldn't endorse that term today (in this case, because our whole paradigm of where religion comes from has shifted). The MoS doesn't really rule on that latter situation: the system adopted here was fleshed out during the PR/FAC of Panagiotis Kavvadias. Happy to take a steer here: suggest it might be wise to work case by case. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 15:42, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• No steer from me. I've said my bit and leave it to those more expert in the MoS than I to comment, if they will be so kind. Tim riley talk 20:05, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• We have an abnormally high number of red links throughout the article. Do you think they are likely to turn blue in the foreseeable future? See the first bullet point of WP:REDNO.

• I suppose I'm thinking of WP:NODEADLINE here: my reading of that first bullet point is that we shouldn't redlink articles with limited chance of ever being created (e.g. because they're not notable, or because the sources on them don't presently exist). I think all of the redlinks would pass GNG and make at least a decent Start- to C-class article (I thought about starting Avianus Evander myself). I think we're on the right side of the admonition at the start of WP:REDLINK: In general, a red link should remain in an article if there is a reasonable expectation that the article in question will eventually be created (either as its own article or as a redirect); remove red links if and only if Wikipedia should not have any coverage on the subject. Happy to be quibbled on specific examples, though. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 15:42, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• I think the rest of us would be wise to trust your judgement on that. Tim riley talk 20:06, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• Lead

• Whenever possible I think it's better not to have citations in the lead. Of course the Ward-Perkins quote needs a citation, but "sometimes called the Temple of Actian Apollo" is covered in the main text, where I should say the citation belongs.

• You're now the second person to raise this: I think you're right; the logic was that it's an implied quotation ("it has been called" = "someone has called it..."), but I think that's over-cautious given the citation in the body. Removed. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 15:42, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• Background

• "was considered a 'foreign' deity" – do we need the quotes? (If so they should be double according to the MoS.)

• Not sure MOS:DOUBLE rules on this: see above re. single/double. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 15:42, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• "his first major architectural project undertaken independently in the city" – I'm struggling a little with this. Independent of what or whom? And how does this square with "It was the second of four temples built in Rome by Augustus", later in the text?

• In the works: will chase sources. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 15:42, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• "While the temple's official name was the Temple of Actian Apollo (using the epithet Actius), it was also informally known by the same god's epithets" – I'd be cautious about using "while" to mean "although" here. We aren't quite into "Miss Smith sang Mozart while Mr Brown played Brahms" territory, but the "while" here could certainly be read in a temporal sense – "during the period when".

• Now although. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 15:42, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• "Cossutius … was likely involved in the temple's construction, based on finds of his stamp on bricks" – two things here, neither of them earth-shattering. First if, as appears, the article is in BrE, "was likely involved" is not normal BrE: "was probably involved" would be usual. And secondly, grammatically the sentence could do with a helping hand: Cossutius is the subject of the sentence and he wasn't based on finds of his stamp. Perhaps something on the lines of "Cossutius, a brick-maker employed by Gaius Asinius Pollio – a politician and literary patron of the early Augustan era – was probably involved in the temple's construction: bricks with his stamp have been found in the temple and adjacent buildings."

• Agreed on both; done. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 15:42, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• Later history

• "According to the French archaeologist Pierre Gros" – do we need to know his nationality?

• It's fairly standard to introduce new people as "the Nationality profession, FirstName LastName", isn't it? That's certainly my default when I don't have any more interesting information to offer but don't want to treat the reader as if they should already know them. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 15:42, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• Location

• "the proximity between the monuments" – unexpected preposition: one might expect "of"

• One would now be right to do so. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 15:42, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• "late Republican domus … constructed during the late Roman Republic." Not sure we need both "late"s.

• We now only have the later. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 15:42, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• "disproven by later excavations" – in English English (though not in Scottish English) the past tense of prove is proved, and the same goes for disprove and disproved.

• Happy to go along with that. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 15:42, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• Architecture

• "The British archaeologist John Ward-Perkins" – I doubt if his nationality is any more relevant to the article than that of Pierre Gros. Likewise for "British archaeologist Amanda Claridge", "the French classicist Gilles Sauron" (how he must hate Tolkien), "the Austrian archaeologist Stephan Zink", "the German classical archaeologist Lilian Balensiefen" and "the German architectural historian Christian Hülsen".

• See above; I think it's a fairly standard introduction. There's some (small) value in emphasising the multi-national nature of classics as a field, and of the study of this monument, and also some value in getting variation from endless "the classicist... the archaeologist..." etc. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 15:42, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• Point absolutely taken, but somewhere in the MoS I think we are bidden to refrain from specifying people's nationalities unless they are relevant. I often dodge the issue by saying "the historian X in his 2002 study of Y says...". It doesn't, in truth, tell the reader anything he or she needs to know, but it lends an air of authority and moves the prose along. Ahem, and pray don't say I said so. Tim riley talk 20:05, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• I'm not averse to treating this as a pure stylistic question rather than simply a matter of the MoS, but do you mean MOS:NATIONALITY? As I read that, it specifically covers opening paragraphs, and advises excluding ethnicity and previous nationalities while including, where possible, someone's "main" nationality. MOS:INFONAT does advise against including nationality in infoboxes where avoidable, but the logic there is that it's usually, in practice, a simple extension of their place of birth. I'm not sure that either is really interested in this kind of situation: did you have another guideline in mind? UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 20:31, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• "Parts of the column capitals were likely gilded" – "probably", probably, as above.

• Now changed as above. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 15:42, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• Reception

• "the historians Josephus and Velleius Paterculus in the 1st century" – at first glance they look like brothers with the same surname. If they can be switched round without affecting the sense it might make for smoother reading.

• Good thought: done. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 15:42, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• Footnotes

• Some of the References seem hybrid – partly citations and partly explanatory footnotes, e.g. Ref 19: "Hill 1962, p. 129. Suetonius records the story at Divus Augustus 94.4". I don't know what other editors think, but for my money the bit about Suetonius would be more helpful to the reader if moved to the Explanatory notes section. I do not by any means press the point, or indeed any of the points above.

• I think it's neater to have it in the reference, since it is a citation of sorts (albeit to the primary source on which the secondary one is based): making a new EFN creates a new blue footnote, which is a readability trade-off, and means that we end up with a whole load of very short EFNs that just give links to primary sources. Appreciate that the line between a fleshed-out reference and an explanatory note is fuzzy: I've tried to stick to keeping it in the reference footnote when it's strictly about how a reader can verify the information, and using an EFN when it's about going beyond that with some sort of tangent or additional context. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 15:42, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

• Understood. I'd do it differently, but I'm me and you are you. All is fine. Tim riley talk 20:36, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

I enjoyed the article greatly, and learned a thing or two as well. I'll look in again with a view to adding my support after a final perusal. Tim riley talk 13:16, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Supporting. Happy to leave the nominator to deal with the one outstanding point, above. The article is a pleasure to read, well and widely sourced, nicely illustrated, well proportioned and is in all respects of FA quality in my view. Tim riley talk 20:36, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Nonmetal

Nominator(s): Sandbh (talk) 12:30, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

While the idea of what a "metal" is has been around since BCE times it was not until over two millenia later that the term "nonmetal" appeared. It was an unfortunate term since explaining what something is not, is difficult.

The structure of the main body of the article has only six sections: Definition—Properties—Types—Prevalence—Uses—History.

There is a table at the end comparing the properties of metals and the different types of nonmetals.

The gist of the nonmetal article should be able to be got by reading only the topic sentence of each paragraph. The technical subject matter means there is some jargon, which I've attempted to minimise.

Since the article was last at FAC, in May-June 2023, it’s been further copy edited, checked for compliance with MOS, the title simplified, the scope honed, and the lede table streamlined. Sandbh (talk) 12:30, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Comments from Graham Beards

Sorry but I think many of the later additions are not improvements. The prose suffers badly from padding, redundancy, editorializing, and verbosity. Here are examples:

.* Within the realm of elemental composition,

• underscoring their pivotal role in the composition of the planet.
• Vital to the composition of living organisms are the nonmetals hydrogen, oxygen, carbon, and nitrogen, which constitute a significant portion of their structural makeup.
• More broadly speaking,
• A degree of ambiguity surrounds
• Further contributing to the evolving landscape of elemental classification
• Approximately half of nonmetallic elements exist in gaseous states, (= are gases)
• with the majority of the remainder being lustrous solids (= most are)
• bromine stands as the singular nonmetal that manifests as a liquid (= the only)
• invariably manifest as solids (= are usually a solid)
• Noteworthy
• Notable
• It is noteworthy
• As to their chemical behavior
• Physically, the unclassified nonmetals appear to lack rhyme or reason.
• In the context of the periodic table
• are recognized as (= are)
• An impressive facet
• A few noteworthy examples
• The majority of (= most)
• Curiously (really?)
• The showcase moment
• "Sodium and potassium, in contrast, exhibited a remarkable behavior—they floated on water." !! Aluminium foil, gold foil, iron ships etc float on water.

Yes, for over two millenia, metals were distinguished from other substances by the fact that (in bulk) they were heavier than water. When Davy, in 1807, isolated sodium and potassium their low densities challenged the conventional wisdom that metals were ponderous substances. Many chemists did not regard them as proper metals. In 1808, Erman and Simon suggested using the term metalloid to refer to the newly discovered elements sodium and potassium. Their suggestion was ignored by the chemical community. The two new elements were eventually admitted into the metal club on the basis of their chemical properties. On the other hand, Davy's discovery "annihilated" the line of demarcation between metals and nonmetals—Hare RA & Bache F 1836, Compendium of the Course of Chemical Instruction in the Medical Department of the University of Pennsylvania, p. 310.

Aluminium was not discovered until 1824, quite a few years later.

I will add have added a footnote about this. Sandbh (talk) 06:09, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Ref Wiberg 2001, pp. 257–258, 261–262 is a red linked

Fixed. Sandbh (talk) 06:09, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

I still think the "Some cross-type properties" is way too noisy.

After so many FACS, we shouldn't be seeing these issues. Graham Beards (talk) 13:49, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Thank you Graham Beards.

Re prose, FAC #6 was an austere version without (as you put it) "padding, redundancy, editorializing, and verbosity". I'm happy to revert to the more austere version of prose.

I am sorry that you find the "Some cross-type properties" table at the end of the article to be "way too noisy". It has only five physical properties and five chemistry-based properties. What is it that you find to be way too noisy?

I am sorry that you feel that after so many FACs, we shouldn't be seeing those issues. Before FAC #7 the article had been to peer-review twice and was copy-edited by an editor from the Guild of Copy Editors. Sandbh (talk) 04:47, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Since then there have been numerous changes. For example:

• "About half of nonmetallic elements are gases; most of the rest are shiny solids." (April 30)
• "Approximately half of nonmetallic elements exist in gaseous states, with the majority of the remainder being lustrous solids." (Current)

Which is not an improvement in my view. Graham Beards (talk) 05:47, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

I agree and will change this to back to the April 30 version. Sandbh (talk) 23:10, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Graham Beards: I copyedited the whole of the article, offline, to address the prose issues you raised including the examples (which were helpful, thank you). I've posted the revised article. Sandbh (talk) 13:37, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

That's infinitely better and I am close to supporting. There was one fused participle, but I couldn't think of a better wording. How attached are you to the table "Some cross-type properties". I don't think it is needed and it is difficult to understand. Graham Beards (talk) 15:43, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Thank you Graham. I will take a closer look at the table, see what can be done about it, and report back here. Sandbh (talk) 00:26, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Graham Beards: That table was not my best work. I have divided the table into two smaller tables and undertook some decluttering and tidying. The introduction to the tables has been rewritten to provide a better explanation and rationale. I feel that this subsection now brings things together in a pleasing way, given its location at the end of the article. Sandbh (talk) 05:52, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Comments from Mike Turnbull

At present the lead includes the statement In contrast, metals are good conductors and most can easily be flattened into sheets and drawn into wires because of the free movement of their electrons. The part "because of the free movement of their electrons" seems unnecessary, because while it may explain the conductivity I don't think it explains the malleability and ductility and is in any case not needed in the lead of an article about nonmetals. The article ductility is the target for all the terms "flattened into sheets", "drawn into wires" and (in the first main section) "malleability" and "ductility", which suggests that fewer links are needed or some of the text could be removed. Mike Turnbull (talk) 15:51, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Thank you Mike. I agree the text about free or unfree electrons doesn't need to be included in the lede, and have trimmed it. Per your suggestion I've replaced malleable and ductile with "pliable". Sandbh (talk) 05:13, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

Piri

Nominator(s): Launchballer 11:41, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

The OnlyFans model Piri began releasing music in 2021 after entering into a relationship with Tommy Villiers of the Villiers family. Their single "Soft Spot" went viral on TikTok and Spotify, prompting EMI to sign them, re-release "Soft Spot" and release "Beachin" and "Words", and for Polydor to release "On & On", Froge.mp3, a cover of "Unlock It", and "Updown" and "Nice 2 Me". Thanks to Pseud 14 for taking a look before nomination (see the article's talk page); any further comments will be appreciated.--Launchballer 11:41, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

550 Madison Avenue

Nominator(s): Epicgenius (talk) 14:37, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

This article is about the old AT&T Building, later the Sony Tower, in New York City. Built in 1984, the skyscraper has a distinctive marble exterior with a huge entrance arch at the base and a Chippendale-like notch on its roof. A bold architectural statement for its time, 550 Madison Ave. was seen as a panacea to New York City's mid-1970s fiscal crisis. It went through two owners in two decades and became an official NYC landmark in 2018 following a controversial plan to significantly modify the building's exterior and lobby.

This page became a Good Article two years ago after a Good Article review by A person in Georgia, for which I am very grateful. I think it's up to FA quality now, and I look forward to all comments and feedback. While the previous nomination was archived due to lack of commentary, I hope that isn't the case this time around. Epicgenius (talk) 14:37, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Comments from HAL

I really enjoy these NYC architecture entries. Comments soon. ~ HAL333 03:51, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Comments by Wehwalt

I'm not sure all architectural terms with which the reader may be unfamiliar have been linked, such as "spandrels" "shear walls/tubes" "mullions" "capitals".

Also cladding.

"There was initially no retail space on the Madison Avenue front because, according to critic Nory Miller, "AT&T didn't want a front door sandwiched between a drug store and a lingerie shop."[44]" Did this change? "Initially" implies a change.

"repudiated claims" Is anything stronger than "denied" really needed?

More soon.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:13, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks @Wehwalt. I've addressed all three of these points now - I added some links, removed "initially", and changed "repudiated" to "denied". – Epicgenius (talk) 13:21, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

• "The presence of the atrium not only allowed additional floor area but also was aligned with the atrium in the IBM Building at 590 Madison Avenue" What was the practical effect of this? Did it form a continuous public space?
  • Yep. I've reworded the sentence now to clarify this. Epicgenius (talk) 19:43, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
• "of a rebuilt annex to the west." If this is the one rebuilt in the early 2020s, then you've referred to it previously and it should be "the" rebuilt annex etc.
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 19:43, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
• "inscriptions on the pavers" What kind? Is this the sort where you spend to have your name inscribed on a brick?
  • Kind of, but the pavers have poetry instead of names inscribed on them. Epicgenius (talk) 19:43, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
• You refer to the amenity space created on the 7th floor twice, with slightly varying description, and once is "by 2020", the conversion is taking place, and the other mentions the renovation in the early 2020s. I'd check for consistency, plus be sure you need to mention it twice.
  • Thanks for the catch - I didn't even notice that the amenity space was mentioned twice. I've reworded this now. Epicgenius (talk) 19:43, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
• " Johnson/Burgee recalled that" reads a bit oddly.
  • I changed this to "Johnson and Burgee", as the men, not their eponymous firm, set aside the questionnaire. Epicgenius (talk) 19:43, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
• "swap some of the expensive materials with cheaper materials" I might simplify "substitute cheaper materials"
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 19:43, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
• "from the cash-strapped AT&T" I might delete the "the"
  • This proposed modification feels awkward, since it would change the sentence to "purchase the building from [adjective] AT&T". If the adjective were something like "defunct", it would sound even more strange ("from defunct AT&T" would sound like it's missing a word). Epicgenius (talk) 19:43, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
• " in comparison to" maybe substitute "given"?
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 19:43, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
• " regarded the changes as akin to a television commercial in exchange for a public benefit." I'm not sure what's being said here.
  • It was worded awkwardly. The visitor said, "my impression is that it's like commercials on television. If Sony wants to maintain the space, they're using the commercials to pay for it." This seems to me like commercial sponsorship, so I've changed it accordingly. Epicgenius (talk) 19:43, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

That's it.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:58, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

• Thanks for the review Wehwalt. I have now addressed all of these issues. Epicgenius (talk) 19:43, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

  Support Wehwalt (talk) 19:59, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Treat Myself

Nominator(s): NØ 14:48, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

This article is about Meghan Trainor's third album, Treat Myself. Before she made us look again, there was this commercial disaster. Trainor's label delayed it several times, spanning over a year, and can probably write a book about what not to do when promoting an album. She has stated in interviews that it is her best work. And if you ask me, track 1 on this album is the best song she has released! Thanks a lot to everyone who will take the time to give their feedback here.--NØ 14:48, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Media review (pass)

The images are licensed appropriately and have alt text (suggest including one for the alternative cover). The audio sample has an appropriate FUR and meets WP:SAMPLE. Pseud 14 (talk) 20:18, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

MyCatIsAChonk

• She conducted the first session - not sure if this is just a music industry term, but I (a classical musician) am reading this as she literally conducted the song; perhaps "ran" or "held" would be better

• This is a great point and I would have never realized this unless you raised it.

• She said it was "fun, dance-y stuff with a little funk" and had an '80s and '90s feel" - missing quotation mark before '80s?
• Dani Blum of Pitchfork described Treat Myself as a combination of several ballads, funk, and "garish shudders of EDM" and wrote - using and in "and wrote" shortly after using and for "and 'Garish...'" is a bit confusing; I think it'd be better as "Dani Blum of Pitchfork described Treat Myself as a combination of several ballads, funk, and "garish shudders of EDM", writing..."
• Lyrically, it discusses - replace it with "the album" or just the album's name
• Wl Evil twin in on which Trainor blames her bad decisions during a night out on her "evil twin"
• Mike Nied of the same website, Lucy Mapstone of The Irish News, and Lauren Alvarez of Forbes thought the album was "worth the wait" - did all three say those exact words? If not, attribute the quote, and abridge the other two to just "critics" or "reviewers"

• I was surprised too but they did, indeed, all use those words!

MaranoFan, all done, great work as always! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 01:10, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Thank you so much for the swift review, MyCatIsAChonk. Very helpful and all done I think.--NØ 06:50, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Support - if you get any time, I have an open FAC and two open FLCs that I'd appreciate comments at- thanks! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 11:01, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Nevermind, I didn't see your comments at season 3 until just now- thank you so much! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 11:04, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Comments

• "Meghan Trainor was placed...." - re-introduce her in the body as "American singer-songwriter Meghan Trainor"
• "Nied opined Trainor successfully" => "Nied opined that Trainor successfully"
• That's it, I think - great work as ever!! -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:17, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Done--NØ 15:31, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

• Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:38, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

GWL

Came here from PR! As usual, I've put invisible comments to divide my comments based on sections. GeraldWL 08:58, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

Resolved comments from GeraldWL 07:46, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

* Per img reviewer's cmts, there should be alt text for alt cover I'm not sure what 2020 Trainor pic serves other than decoration. Even with that said, we already see her face twice in the infobox, with a good headshot in the alt cover, so there's not much value for another pic. This would probably be the TFA image so I would prefer to keep it in. I would also disagree that it is decorative. An image of the article subject from the month of album release seems like a natural fit for inclusion. Refs 69-82 are unarchived, why so? They don't since they are automatically produced by the Album chart template. I believe archives are considered redundant here since the database cited directly is an archive itself. "Trainor worked with producers including Mike Sabath, Tyler Johnson, Ojivolta, and Andrew Wells." Is there a reason the other producers aren't included? Nine producer names would be a bit much for the lead and unlikely to interest the average reader. I have limited it to producers who contributed to multiple tracks. "and others commented" --> "while others commented" "for the second time in December 2016"-- I think adding briefly on when was the first time, would make "for the second time" more sense. By vocal cord surgery, you mean Thyroplasty? No sources use this word so no. "and she wanted to bring Spears, NSYNC and Backstreet Boys-inspired pop songs "back to radio"." Not sure what "back to radio" means? Was she saying she wanted this album to have similar vibes with the songs of these artists? She wanted songs influenced by these artists to be played on the radio again. Link Valentines "Scherzinger's appearance is credited to the Pussycat Dolls"-- should link The Pussycat Dolls and explain what it is in relation to Scher. "the same girl gang hoots and hollers and fluffernutter hooks"-- I'm sure it's not really referring to the peanut butter but there should probably be clarification on the slangs. I introduced a link for girl group and removed fluffernutter altogether since there does not seem to be any obvious way to paraphrase this. The Hear to stay lyrics should prob have a space before the "/" Why does that lyrics separate each line with / but for "Opinion" it's written like a usual sentence? Good catch and should be consistent now. Release looks all good! Since there are only four critics used in Meta, I think it'd be interesting to list who only is considered in their aggregation. Also interesting since you use all the critics in this section. Why not italicize Idolator? The citation style I follow typically sticks to the publications' respective articles when it comes to italicization. The one for Idolator never italicized it.

Thanks for the very insightful review, Gerald Waldo Luis. I hope everything has been addressed.--NØ 15:31, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

It seems like it, all my comments seem resolved swimmingly! Happy to support another of your FACs. GeraldWL 07:46, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Source review

• The citations come from high-quality sources that are appropriate for a music-related article and are well-structured. I have a few comments below, but for the most part, this part of the article seems solid to me. I have also done a spot check and based on the random sources I checked out, the information cited in the article can be found in the actual sources.
• I hate to do this, but what makes Riff a high-quality source? Not saying it is not, but I would just like to hear your defense of it as it is not a source that I am personally familiar with.
• Citation 19 has this title, Meghan Trainor: Treat Myself (Album Review), when the article has this title, Meghan Trainor's Treat Myself Has Us Questioning How Deep Feminism Runs in the Music Industry. The title in the citation should match the title in the article.
• Citation 36 uses both work and publisher (i.e. People and Yahoo! Entertainment) when other citations, such as Citation 12 only uses one. I would change this citation to match the others and I would double-check any other citations to make sure they are all consistent with one another.
• Citation 39 does not have an author, but the source has a credited author (Glenn Rowley). Citation 59 has the same issue. The source has a credited author (Taylor Weatherby) not represented in the citation.

Wonderful work on the article. I hope this source review is helpful. Once everything has been addressed, this should pass my source review. I hope you have a great rest of your week! Aoba47 (talk) 17:14, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Appalachian Spring

Nominator(s): MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 19:48, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

Martha Graham's ballet technique was one of the first American styles of dance, and it was beautifully executed in Appalachian Spring, a ballet commissioned for Graham and the composer Aaron Copland. Graham's unique choreography and the suites created from Copland's serene score remain essential in the American repertoire. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 19:48, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

Comments from Mirokado

One of my favourites. First impression is: a well-written article.

• §Background: last para: "bizarre scenes" (or whatever phrase is used in the source) should be quoted so it is not in Wikipedia's voice.
• §Commission and composition
  • is "composing on the music" American usage? It seems incorrect to this British reader, I would expect "composing the music".
  • "and the rest of the community attends a revival meeting": perhaps American usage again? I would expect "the rest ... attend ...".
  • "Despite a new December deadline": It would be clearer to say "December 1943 deadline" here, since presumably "fall 1944" is meant after "spring of 1944" in the previous sentence.

More later. -- Mirokado (talk) 21:59, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

All fixed- no, those aren't AmE spellings, just typos on my part, thanks for catching them! Clarified everything else MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 01:42, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

• §Commission and composition: "The original scenario...": I'm familiar with the music but not the ballet, so it was a bit confusing that the main characters first mentioned in the content are not those mentioned in the lead. This is clarified later, but an extra clue here would be helpful. The shortest way of doing this would be to say "... used characters (later changed) based on..." or similar.
• §Production:
  • Perhaps "collaborator with" is better than "collaborator of".
  • Quote "Fear of the Night" and any other references to episodes.
• §Premiere and reception: "Copland himself took a modest opinion...": "had a modest opinion", we have an opinion but take a stance or position.
• §Later performances: "Lynn Garafola compared Copland and Graham's collaborations to that of Stravinsky and Diaghilev": should be "... collaboration to that of ...". (I have verified that the reference provided supports this content).
• Referencing: multiple-page ranges need the |pp= param in sfn.

More later. -- Mirokado (talk) 21:59, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

All fixed, added an efn for the first comment instead of parentheses- many thanks again! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 15:05, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

• §Later performances: have there been any notable performances of the ballet outside the U.S that we can mention? The current para has only U.S. performances.
• §Themes: "Crist describes this as an embodiment of the link between wars among generations: as World War II was linked to the Civil War, the Bride brings together the life on the homefront in the 19th and 20th centuries." I'm not at all sure what is meant by "World War II was linked to the Civil War". Unless there is a causal link I am unaware of, I think we should rephrase this sentence to reflect similarity of circumstance and experience rather than any direct link. (I have verified that the reference provided supports this content, so I am also disagreeing with how Crist has made her point).
• §Instrumentation: the layout of the columns is weird (on my system using Chrome on linux with a largish monitor): the columns in the first group are widely spaced and in the second group, the first column is wide and the second and third are narrower but seem to start where the second column of the first group ended. I don't see anything obviously wrong with the source, so some investigation is needed.

  Thanks. I have tweaked further so that both first columns are 38% wide and the final column takes the remaining space. The columns line up and the total specified width does not exceeed 100%. -- Mirokado (talk) 10:43, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

More later. -- Mirokado (talk) 21:59, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

Reworded the themes issue, and I think I got the columns thing fixed, let me know if it's still displaying wrong on your end. For the foreign performances: I can find very little info about performances. Most of the info I did get about performances was, as you noticed, from US newspapers. I can't find anything about a European or Asian premiere; I did find this 1946 article about a London performance of the suite, but it doesn't explicitly state that it's the European premiere. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 00:13, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Not much we can add about performances without sources. This section would need to be updated if more information becomes available. -- Mirokado (talk) 10:43, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

• §Prologue: the description moves from present tense to past tense. I think it needs to stay in the present tense apart from "The four Followers join the Revivalist, who has observed the land with the Pioneer Woman." which is correct so.
• §Eden Valley:
  • "Halfway, the music calms down...": "Half way through, ..." would I think read better.
  • "... cued by a short phrase by a woodwind.": "... cued by a short phrase from a woodwind." would avoid repetition of "by".
• §Wedding day:
  • "The music becomes heavier for and the jagged rhythms return ...": "The music becomes heavier for a while and ..."?
  • 'The second part of "Wedding Day" depicted the "old fashion charivari" mentioned in the scripts.' Is this referring to something which was later removed? If so we need to clarify, for example "Originally, the second part..." and perhaps say what replaced it. Otherwise, "depicts" should be in the present.
• §Interlude: present tense tweaks needed here too.

More later. -- Mirokado (talk) 10:43, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Fixed all - the tense should be all good, and the charivari thing was supposed to be present tense, thanks for spotting that! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 11:13, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

I have just checked with some other articles about musical works, and generally the present tense is used, so I think a few more tweaks may be needed. If it seems too complicated to describe the changes, I may make a few (more) copyedits and you are welcome to change further, discuss here or whatever. -- Mirokado (talk) 21:22, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

• §Commission and composition: "old fashion charivari" needs some context here. We could wl Charivari#North America which says "In some communities the ritual served as a gentle spoof of the newlyweds, intended to disrupt for a while any sexual activities that might be under way." Since that is half way through the section, I suggest an efn as well as the wikilink.
• §Interlude:
  • "greatly connected": I think "strongly connected" would be better.
  • "..., the Followers following along.": well of course they are, it's their job! Can we rephrase, perhaps "..., accompanied by the Followers."?
• §Fear in the Night, ...:
  • "... he warns the couple of their love." The problem is presumably the impending separation, or whatever, not their love itself. Is it possible to rephrase this?
  • "His agonized, frenzied dance was informed by the experiences of Peter Sparling, a dancer in the company who would dance the role in later productions." What experiences – the linked article does not give any clues? The article says he danced with Graham from 1973–1987, so was he really involved with her in 1944 or thereabouts? If he influenced later productions, we could say "has been informed" rather than "was informed".

More later. -- Mirokado (talk) 21:22, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Fixed all- I just linked the charivari because I couldn't find a citation for an efn. I clarified the Sparling fact, but that may be dangerously OR-y, since the article uses rather vague language. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 23:33, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. Your changes are often better than my suggestions. -- Mirokado (talk) 23:55, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

I appreciate it; I'm impressed by the fine details you're catching. Still working on my encyclopedic tone! Also, I think I;ve fixed the past/present tense issue- details about the music/dance are present tense, and details about Copland's composition of it are in past tense- let me know if I missed any. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 01:00, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

• §Background: "consisted of" was correct as originally written: see for example Merriam Webster. (notifying user:ZKang123) -- Mirokado (talk) 09:26, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

  Thanks for catching that! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 10:59, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Comments from ZKang123

I will take a look at this. I had studied the composition before in my A levels days, and I might have some understanding of the ballet.--ZKang123 (talk) 02:04, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Lead:

• "Appalachian Spring is a ballet and orchestral work by the American composer Aaron Copland and the choreographer Martha Graham."
  • From my understanding, Aaron Copland composed the music while Graham did the ballet choreography. This article talks about both the music and the ballet. The way its ordered at the moment seems to imply the choreographer was involved in composing.
  • I will rewrite to "Appalachian Spring is a ballet and orchestral work by American composer Aaron Copland, with the original choreography by Martha Graham."
    • I implemented this with a small change to phrasing; technically, both Graham and Copland devised the scenario, so I kept them together with "created" MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 01:15, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
• "It was composed for Graham upon a commission by Elizabeth Sprague Coolidge" – "Commissioned by Elizabeth Sprague Coolidge, Copland composed the ballet for Graham"
• "The work was very successful after its 1944 premiere, winning Copland the Pulitzer Prize for Music the following year." – "The music saw its success in the 1944 premiere, earning Aaron Copland the Pulitzer Prize for Music in the subsequent year."
• Wikilink Great Depression
• "Copland's political ideals began shifting further left" – "Copland's political ideals aligned towards the left"
  • Also wikilinke "left"
• Remove the semi-colon with a comma.
• "as a result, he had the idea to create ordinary music for the public, music that was easy and accessible enough for the general citizen to understand."
  • "As a result, he began composing ordinary music that were easy and accessible enough for the general citizen."
• "He used this idea" – "He incorporated this concept"
• ", and the final result drew from a number of the revisions." – I find this clause irrelevant after you mentioned of various revisions before

Background and commission:

• I have to admit you included a bit too much of Copland's backstory into this article. I would simplify further to focus more on his compositional tutelage and cut away stuff about his family (which I can read further in the composer's biography).
  • E.g. "The Copland family lived above their Brooklyn department store, which his parents spent much of their time managing; as a result, Copland was entrusted to the care of his older siblings." – this could be removed and skip over to him being close to his sister
  • "Exposed him" – "introduced him"
• "consisted of" – remove of
• "Copland wrote much of the composition on the West Coast" – I'm curious, why was he on the West Coast? If I recall he's from New York
  • Not stated in the sources. Franko says he was just in Hollywood, and Graham says he was "far" from her New York location MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 01:15, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
    • Might then say he was also working at Hollywood. Was also checking with Oxford Music Library (Grove Music) on his biography by Neil Lerner which stated "Dividing his time between East and West Coasts, Copland continued to score Hollywood films throughout the 1940s." --ZKang123 (talk) 01:40, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
• "an Indian girl to represent the land" – would clarify Native American instead of Indian. Also might wikilink Native American
  • Used "American Indian" instead, since it more closely aligns with the sources. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 01:15, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
    • I'd rather if you use "Native American", unless it's a country jargon (ex: Indian Reserve or statute Indian in Canada).--ZKang123 (talk) 02:10, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
• "contained an extra episode" – "included an extra episode"
• "the premiere was pushed to the fall." – I guess of 1944?

More to come.--ZKang123 (talk) 02:07, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

All have been implemented; I replied above if I didn't implement the comment in its full form. Thank you! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 01:15, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Production, reception:

• "the Daughter, now the Bride", "the Citizen, now the Husbandman" – would rather write "the Daughter to the Bride; the Citizen to the Husbandman" etc
• "Four Followers of the Revivalist were added to the cast for a total of nine dancers." – So there are nine dancers in total overall? Or 13?
• For the last two paragraphs of the production subsection, as it's more about the commentary and comments by critics, why is it in this section instead of the reception section? I will keep the parts of the intentions, then shift the actors' performances to the reception section.
• Wikilink "The New York Times critic". Also John Martin

More to come.--ZKang123 (talk) 01:24, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

All fixed! On point three: these sentences are supposed to describe the choreography. I had a hard time deciding what counted as a review and what was effectively describing the dance, so I've cut some things. Let me know what you think- thanks! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 11:04, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Also fixed native american and added the west coast fact- thanks for finding that source! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 11:20, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Before I go on, may I know why the music and plot sections combined? I don't see as such for The Rite of Spring and The Firebird, though also for Petrushka (ballet).--ZKang123 (talk) 10:11, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

@ZKang123, there is no particular reason to divide the two sections. The story and the music are closely connected, and explaining them at the same time is intuitive and helpful. Philip 2018 explains the plot and music the same way (though, with less detail). MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 11:02, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Also, I tried modeling much of this article and The Firebird after The Rite's article, since The Rite is a FA. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 11:21, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Alright thanks for the above explanation. And yes, I can see the parallels made, though bear in mind they are slightly older FAs. Continuing.

Music and plot:

• "Suddenly, an energetic melody" – "A sudden energetic melody". Or just remove suddenly and write "burst forth" instead of "come forth"
• "Swing-like" – further elaborate how the melody is "swing-like". Like, is it the rhythm, or the intervals?
• Might also show an example of "jagged rhythms". Like, is it a dotted quaver - semiquaver?
  • The sources don't really elaborate on this. Pollack also describes the rhythms as "mov[ing] jaggedly"; based on my knowledge of the score, I can say that "jagged" is describing the 3/4, 2/4, to 5/8 metre change, but I can't find a source that reflects this; and, IMO, adding another musical excerpt would be a bit extensive, but if you think it's needed, I'm not vehemently opposed MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 13:20, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
• "caring melody" – "soothing melody"?
• You mention of a duet (Eden Valley). You didn't mention what instrument was playing the energetic opening of this movement. Further elaborate. Or is this duet referring more to the ballet than the music? If so, then duo
  • The energetic opening was played by the upper strings and piano, so mentioning an instrument is sort of a moot point since it's half the orchestra. Otherwise, I've clarified that it refers to the dance MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 13:20, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
• "this time with louder and more forceful strings" – "this time accompanied by louder and more forceful strings"
• "Copland achieves this by relating the music to American folk themes" – might further elaborate on other inspirations and folk elements incoporated
  • I can't find much other than the fiddling mentioned after and the relation to County Fairs mentioned before that sentence MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 13:20, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
• "such as the harmony or which instruments are playing" – "such as the harmony and the instrumentation."
• "The music of "Fear of the Night" jolts and twitches, similar to the "Gun Battle" in Billy the Kid." – Jolts and twitches... I guess in mode (angry, sad etc)?
  • Added nervously, which is the only emotion described in the source MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 13:20, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
• "becomes rushing and agitated" – "becomes rushed and agitated"
• I might also note the slower tempo and harmonies (is it tonal and/or dissonant?) in "The Lord's Day" subsection
  • Can't find any sources for the music part. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 13:20, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
• I recall in my American music studies about the "openness" of the ballet to reflect the "prairie" of the American countryside, with the wider range of notes and notably also illustrated through the longer-held notes for the slower sections. I'm not sure of the source, but I think you can relook into your sources. Optional if you can't find it.
  • I can find a good bit of information regarding the association of the prairie with Billy the Kid, but nothing about Appalachian Spring. There's certainly some level of association between Copland's Americana music and the idea of the Wild West, but the writings I found talked about Billy the Kid instead. Certainly a good point though- thanks for bringing it up! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 13:20, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
• No other prose problems in the suites and recordings section.

That's all for me.--ZKang123 (talk) 09:43, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

• ZKang123, thank you very much for your review- I've replied to some above, but I addressed them all! Many of the ones about expanding upon the description of the music or themes could not be implemented since I couldn't find any sources. That was one difficulty in rewriting this article- many sources talk about the history of it and the general idea of the plot, but few actually go in depth into the music or the themes (it's a miracle I was even able to have a themes section, you probably noticed it only uses four sources). Thank you for the review! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 13:20, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
  • You might want to refer to Aaron Copland's Appalachian Spring By Annegret Fauser, from page 39 onwards. If you can, try to dig up this article from The American Music Teacher. There are also doctoral dissertations on the music you can refer to, but I might urge caution given WP:PRIMARY. Tonal Coherence in Copland's Music of the 1940s (Kleppinger, Stanley V.), Copland and Stravinsky on the parallels between "APPALACHIAN SPRING" AND "APOLLON MUSAGETE", and Tonality and harmonic motion in Copland's "Appalachian Spring" (Rober, Russell Todd). I will hold off giving my support until more is elaborated on the music.--ZKang123 (talk) 14:05, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

    @ZKang123, thanks for finding these sources. Fauser page 83 disproves the "open prairie" idea; it says that the idea of the frontier as a prairie was found in Rodeo but disregarded for Appalachian Spring, replaced by the idea of a peaceful settlement. The slower tempo in "The Lord's Day" has been added; found little about about the harmonies, but added some about the restatement of the Eden Valley theme. I clarified the American folk themes detail too. Note that I didn't look through the theses yet, but I've found in the past that theses are often extremely complex when discussing music theory, so I hesitate to use them. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 11:41, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Image review

• What's the copyright status of the music itself?
  • As a music student, as far as I'm aware this piece was composed in the 40s, and I doubt the copyright has expired.--ZKang123 (talk) 01:53, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
• File:Coolidge_Auditorium_under_construction.jpg: where is this believed to have been published in 1925?

• File:Pulitzer_Prizes_(medal).png is tagged as a 2D work, but medals are generally considered to be 3D. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:18, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

@Nikkimaria, I'm not sure what you mean by 2D tagged- can you clarify? The LOC website for the Coolidge Auditorium photo says it was published in 1925, and it was very likely published in the US since it was taken by a capitol architect. The music is under copyright internationally, but I believe the use is minimal, as in other FAs about copyrighted works like Short Symphony and Symphony No. 3 (Górecki). MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 12:17, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

PD-scan is based on mechanical reproduction of a 2D work - it can't be used for 3D works.

The LOC website says "published/created" - we don't know whether that means published and created, or just created, without more information.

Brief quotations from non-free works are allowed, but inline citation is required. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:39, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

@Nikkimaria: for the pulitzer medal, I added PD-coin, because I can't find anything else that would fit it. If this isn't proper, please let me know what is needed to verify that it's PD.

Coolidge auditorium: I am having an extremely difficult time finding information about this photo's provenance. The LOC listing says its found in a published guide called "Washingtonia Photographs". The (thankfully public domain) guide can be found online, but the page that mentions this photograph doesn't actually display the photo (see LOT 4021). Though it mentions a name on the back, I cannot find any information about a "John Crane", so the death date is unknown too. PD-US-unpublished won't work, since anonymous works must be created over 120 years ago to be PD, but I also can't prove its publication. Does the mention in "Washingtonia Photographs" qualify?

Added citations for the musical quotations. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 16:16, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

A simple mention without the image doesn't qualify, no - have you found any publication of the actual image? Nikkimaria (talk) 23:58, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

@Nikkimaria, no, I have not. The only place I can find it is in the LOC exhibit linked under sources. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 00:16, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Okay. You've stated that it was taken by a capitol architect - is that certain? I see "probably secured from" at the given source. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:23, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

@Nikkimaria: I didn't think "probably secured from" was sufficient- do you think it's enough to say it's PD since it's taken by a US gov't employee? MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 00:26, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

No - unfortunately without more information I don't think we can use it. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:29, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

@Nikkimaria Cut MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 01:36, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

GWL

Hey there! As an appreciation for the plethora of comments you put on my PR, I thought perhaps this would be a fun little QPQ. I've put invisible comments to divide my comments based on sections. GeraldWL 07:33, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

• Shortdescs must be as brief as possible, with the majority of articles having 40 or less characters. I think here, "music" can be dropped since the music is part of the ballet.
• Trim some of the alt texts; per accessibility guidelines they must be brief enough for blind readers to get the gist of it. For example, photographic elements like B&W, sepia, chromolitograph, unless they are contextually important, can be dropped.
• Infobox: Should "Coolidge Auditorium" be in brackets?
  • I don't see a reason it shouldn't, since it's linked in the prose too; and, the premiere location is linked in The Rite of Spring too MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 11:39, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
• Pennsyl should be linked like the lead does.
  • The first occurrence of Pennsylvania outside the lead is already linked? MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 11:39, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
    • I was referring to the infobox, sorry for not being clear. GeraldWL 04:41, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
• For consistency the ref publishers should be linked: ref 19, 59, 87, 94, 121-124, 157. Also those in Sources.
• Aaron Copland (121-124, 157) fits better as pub than web
• Locations should be placed out of the ExLinks, e.g. "Aaron Copland Collection at the Library of Congress"
• Since Portal bar has a white background, putting it above the navboxes would make it less awkward.
  • All above without an individual response have been fixed MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 11:39, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
    • The portal bar placement should follow the advice at MOS:LAYOUT: below navboxes, above authority control. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:12, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

      Thanks for the clarification, it's been updated per MOS standards. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 22:19, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

• I think there should be a repeat of "Appalachian Spring" replacing "the ballet" in "The ballet follows the Bride" and "The ballet features eight episodes".

• Shouldn't it be "in the United States"?
• Link ragtime
• "his left-wing political stances strengthened"-- Left-wing political stances, no need for pipe
• "This "ordinary music" idea is certainly present"-- certainly sounds pretty subjective and essayistic, I think it can be replaced by other words, but removing it doesn't really change the intended message.
• "about Medea" --> "about the Greek mythology figure Medea"
• "Graham's east-coast-based work"-- the article doesn't hyphenate and decapitalize east coast
• If my point on Medea was to be done, then Greek mythology in "drew from Greek mythology and French poetry" should be unlinked
  • I chose to not link Greek mythology beside Medea's name, since it's a passing mention; a link is more important here MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 22:49, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
• There's a more specific Slavery during the American Civil War
• Just wanna say, I love these meta footnotes, it gives the article a specific touch!
  • Thank you! I tried including information in efns in this article, rather than putting them in parenthesis or the like; the use of efns on Mahler, Debussy, etc is excellent and I strive to achieve the quality of those articles MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 22:49, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
• If you were to list all eight episodes with individual refs, I don't think ref 44 is needed in "The final scenario featured eight episodes".
• You start off number 1, 3, and 4 with the title, but then repeat it, e.g. "Prologue: Graham did not want "Prologue" to be long". It can be resolved with "Prologue: Graham did not want this chapter to be long".
• "spring of 1944 [...] fall of 1944." "Avoid the use of seasons [...] as such uses are ambiguous".
  • I have no choice, the cited sources say use that time frame, and saying "the later months" is (IMO) more vague. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 22:49, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
    • I think spring and fall is easily interpretable as early and late 1944. The later months is definitely ambiguous but so are seasons. GeraldWL 05:08, 21 September 2023 (UTC)
• "a Japanese-American sculptor"-- I don't think Jap-Am is needed, like how you don't state Copland is Lithuanian-American.
• "combined with Copland winning"
• If you linked Pennsyl, then Hawaii, Tennessee, Indiana, and Florida should also be linked.
  • Not linked per Michael's comment MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 22:49, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
• Link Tchaikovsky, Stravinsky.

• "a reference to the ongoing"-- civil rights movement is a "was", so ongoing can probably be dropped.
  • Ongoing was for racial inequality in the United States, but the order can be confusing; I switched it so that racial inequality comes after civil rights movement MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 22:49, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
• "The idea of using Shaker themes" -- repetition of "Shaker" --> "This idea"
• Link variation (music) per lead

• "Throughout the "Prologue""-- chapter names shouldn't probably begin with "the"
  • Crist refers to the Prologue and Interlude with articles (see p176 and p169); so does Pollack. Because these are common musical terms, but should still be in quotes, the article is used MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 22:49, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
• Consonance and disonance should prob be linked in Backg rather than here, or link in both occassions
  • Linked in themes and music; the mention in Background is passing MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 22:49, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
• "Halfway through"
  • Not done- this is how it used to be, but was changed per a comment by Mirokado above
• Link County fair

• "Its great success made the (then on-tour)"-- not sure what the brackets serve, I think we can assume that the shows have ended.
  • "Then on-tour" shows that the ballet was still showing in theatres when the suite debuted; this in turn made the ballet more popular, and it was likely seen more as a result (but I don't have a source for that last point) MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 22:49, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
• Instead of making a footnote J, the prose can be tweaked to: "exist as created by Copland; in chronological order:"
• Video recording or film? They're two really different stuff
• "there over" --> "there have been over"
  • Actually used are, that was a typo on my part- there are over 150 recordings available commercially MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 22:49, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

  I disagree that US states other than Pennsylvania, the setting of the ballet, should be linked; MOS:OVERLINK. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 07:51, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

  Perhaps, yeah. MyCatIsAChonk, feel free to ignore that cmt. GeraldWL 07:54, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

@Gerald Waldo Luis: I think I've gotten everything; if I didn't respond to a comment, I implemented/fixed it without question. Thank you so much for the thorough read-through! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 22:49, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Your welcome! I've responded to two comments, you can notice them by my signature. GeraldWL 04:41, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

@Gerald Waldo Luis Fixed both MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 11:27, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Adamson Tannehill

Nominator(s): TfhentzTfhentz (talk) 15:43, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

This article is about... Biography of Adamson Tannehill (1750-1820), military officer, politician, civic leader, and farmer. Tannehill had a significant role in the American Revolution as captain and commander of the longest serving rifle regiment of the war. He was an early leading citizen of Pittsburgh and a distinguished Pennsylvania politician who held several local, state, and national appointed and elected offices, notably including one term as a Democratic-Republican in the U.S. House of Representatives from 1813 to 1815 and president of the Pittsburgh branch of the Bank of the United States. He also served on the founding boards of civic and state organizations. He was active in the Pennsylvania state militia, eventually rising to the rank of major general in 1811. Moreover, Tannehill served as brigadier general of United States Volunteers in the War of 1812.Tfhentz (talk) 15:43, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Coordinator note

• Hi Tfhentz, and welcome back to FAC. Just noting that as it is more than fourteen years since you nominated an article at FAC, and things have changed a bit in the interim, I would like this article to pass a source to text integrity spot check and a review for over-close paraphrasing n addition to the usual source review before being considered for promotion. Good luck with the nomination. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:23, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

  Hi Gog the Mild, Thanks very much for the note. Things have changed a bit, indeed, since I last posted a nomination at FAC! For the better, I must add. I look forward to the spot check you mention and will respond as expeditiously as I can during the process. Cheers. Tfhentz (talk) 22:59, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

Image review

• File:Tannehill_1776_commission.tif is mistagged

• File:Fort_Pitt_in_1776.jpg: source link is dead, missing a US tag. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:38, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

Corrected; both image files should be good to go now.Tfhentz (talk) 11:45, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

1912–13 Gillingham F.C. season

Nominator(s): ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:18, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

With 25 successful FAC nominations to date for seasons in the history of my favourite football club, and one looking like it's bearing down on goal with only the keeper to beat, here's number 27. This was technically the very first Gillingham F.C. season, as it was the first under that name, but like most of the seasons in the club's history up to this point it didn't produce much in the way of success. Feedback as ever will be most gratefully received and swiftly acted upon -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:18, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Comments by Wehwalt

• "Gillingham also competed in the FA Cup; after holding Barnsley, the previous season's winners of the competition, to a draw at home in the first round, Gillingham were defeated in a replay at Barnsley's ground." I might divide the sentence after "Cup". Also, should Oakwell be piped?
• "The name change would not be formally approved by the shareholders until the following summer but nonetheless the team played under the new name in the 1912–13 season.[6]" Perhaps rather than "but nonetheless", substitute a semicolon for "but"?
• "The team ended a six-match winless run by defeating Coventry City 2–1 away from home on 16 November" Do we need "from home"?

That's all I have.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:23, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

@Wehwalt: - many thanks for your review, all should be done now! -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:00, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Support. Looks good.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:04, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Comments by Pseud 14

• and began October with two away games, losing 2–1 to Reading and winning 2–0 away to Bristol Rovers -- perhaps you can take out the second instance of "away" as it is preceded by a mention that these two are the away games in October.
• On Christmas Day -- might be worth linking for context that it happened December 25th
• That's all I got. As usual, another well-written work out of your Gillingham series. Pseud 14 (talk) 18:58, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
  • @Pseud 14: - thanks for your review - both done! -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 20:06, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
• Support. Pseud 14 (talk) 21:58, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Source review

Impressive prose as usual- don't seem to be issues there, so I'll do a source review. No spotcheck. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 11:23, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

• Add Template:Use British English or otherwise appropriate
• Ref 3 needs author (look at bottom of webpage)
• It looks like most (if not all) of the newspapers.com citations are to clippings. Anyone can view these clippings, so the lock icon isn't needed. If it linked to the paper itself, it would require login, but viewing just the clippings is not exclusive

ChrisTheDude, I got nothing else, nice job! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 11:23, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

@MyCatIsAChonk: - thanks for your review, all done! -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 11:27, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Support - wow, impressively fast, I appreciate that! BTW, if you get extra time, I'd appreciate any comments at this FAC- thank you! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 11:29, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

@MyCatIsAChonk: - sure, I will do my best to take a look over the weekend. BTW, can you clarify if you are both supporting on prose and passing the source review? Thanks!! -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 11:45, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for reminding me, you think I'd know to clarify by now... support</