Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard

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Case Created Last volunteer edit Last modified
Title Status User Time User Time User Time
Manipulation (psychology) In Progress Darcyisverycute (t) 28 days, 19 hours Robert McClenon (t) 3 days, 3 hours Wiki-psyc (t) 1 days, 11 hours
Debt-trap diplomacy Closed Qiushufang (t) 16 days, 5 hours Robert McClenon (t) 1 days, 6 hours Robert McClenon (t) 1 days, 6 hours
2022 Chinese_military_exercises_around_Taiwan Closed Jaredscribe (t) 1 days, 22 hours Robert McClenon (t) 1 days, 20 hours Robert McClenon (t) 1 days, 20 hours
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Last updated by FireflyBot (talk) at 18:00, 6 August 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Current disputes[edit]

Manipulation (psychology)[edit]

Pictogram voting wait blue.svg – Discussion in progress.
Filed by Darcyisverycute on 05:13, 10 July 2022 (UTC).Reply[reply]

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

The discussion started on 10 May in response to this edit where I rewrote the article: [1]. Almost all of the content from that edit has since been reverted by wiki-psyc, and the content dispute is almost entirely about the contents of that diff. The discussion on wiki-psyc's talk page and the manipulation talk page are both quite long, so I will try to summarise my changes and my understanding of their perspective.

What I changed:

  • I updated the sections on predispositions to use modern data from review articles about the influence of gender and other factors
  • I tried to remove stigmatising language in the spirit of WP:MEDLANG by rewriting "manipulators" to "people who manipulate"
  • I rewrote the "mental illness" section to describe in more detail which mental illnesses are associated with manipulation and removed those I could not find evidence for (in the DSM-5 or elsewhere)
  • I added information about assessment tools for manipulation
  • I removed self-help material based on the understanding that it is not a reliable source for psychology as it is not subject to peer review and is not empirically founded
  • I mention the relationship between manipulation and machiavellianism
  • I removed and disagreed with the use of ethics citations for the article about psychology
  • Removed "see also" entries covered in disambiguation page

What I understand wiki-psyc's perspective on the content to be:

  • Because there is no specific page for philosophy/anthropology of manipulation, that content belongs on this page
  • Manipulation is not pathological and should not be written as such
  • The contents of my edit constitutes original research and cherry picking not consistent with existing academic consensus
  • The page should not discuss topics irrelevant to manipulation, including machiavellianism, and details about assessment


How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

  • [2] (not picked up by 3O)

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

  • Establish agreement on whether a separate anthropological article can be made/split
  • Ensure understanding of WP:OWN which appears to be relevant given the article's edit history
  • Determine relevance of including details about assessment and machiavellianism
  • Agree on article content describing which and how mental illness are related to manipulation

Summary of dispute by wiki-psyc[edit]

A third opinion was requested by Darcyisverycute, which she is also disputing. Talk:Manipulation_(psychology)#Content_discussion/dispute

The controversy is whether "manipulation" is a human behavior or a clinical pathology. The article as it stands characterizes it as a human behavior and has a section on mental health that directs readers to mental health conditions where extreme manipulation is one of a cluster of symptoms comprising different clinical pathologies (there are several). Darcyisverycute, respectfully, is proposing a major rewrite of the article ( see revision 1086775412 ) which I contend cherry picks info from a few small esoteric research papers to create a complex narrative (WP:ORIGINAL) inconsistent with the philosophy, ethics, behavioral, and clinical literature. Notwithstanding, I commend Darcyisverycute for handling this diagreement in a constructive manner. Wiki-psyc (talk) 15:15, 10 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Manipulation (psychology) discussion[edit]

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

Zeroth statement by moderator (manipulation)[edit]

This is another preliminary statement to determine whether there is an article content dispute. If there is an article content dispute, I will act as the moderator. Please read the ground rules. If you have questions about the rules, ask rather than guessing. Comment on content, not contributors. Be civil and concise. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:20, 11 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I am asking each editor to make a one-paragraph statement as to what changes you want to make to the article. Remember that the purpose of discussion here is to improve the article. If you want to rewrite the article, please state concisely how you want to rewrite it. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:20, 11 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Zeroth statement by editors (manipulation)[edit]

I want to expand the article with information from newer review articles about correlates (gender, mental illness, and personality traits) with manipulative behavior, remove content based on self-help sources, describe the cross-cultural diversity of definitions for the concept, indicate in-article which information originates from ethics/philosophy research, and remove stigmatising language about people with tendencies for manipulative behavior. Darcyisverycute (talk) 02:19, 11 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The term manipulation is broad and, as such, has 21 line items on the disambiguation page ( see Manipulation disambiguation ). This article in question was labeled "Manipulation (psychology)" to differentiate it from physical behavior, etc. Manipulation is a universal human behavior (like callousness, deceitfulness, hostility, impulsiveness, irresponsibility, etc.) and an age-old topic with an extensive body of information written by philosophers, ethicists, behaviorists, and to a lessor extent, psychiatry. The article framework currently represents this balance, and

1) I would suggest that it is best to build on that framework/perspective.
2) I would also support a re-naming the article to Manipulation (human behavior) if that would be helpful and
3) I would recommend against re-writing the article to characterize manipulation as a psychiatric pathology because
a) the is not the primary use of the term and
b) the psychiatric mainstream literature does not support this idea. For the most part, "manipulation" appears in the clinical literature in symptom lists and in some esoteric work measuring its presence or use. A simple search using Google Scholar for terms such as "pathological manipulation", "clinical manipulation", "manipulation pathology", "sub-clinical manipulation" will yield little or nothing. A Google General search will mostly pull up these terms from unreliable sources like hobbyist psychology youtube videos, message-boards, blogs, and self published e-books. Wiki-psyc (talk) 13:25, 11 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]


First statement by moderator (manipulation)[edit]

Read the ground rules again. No one is breaking the rules, but it doesn't hurt to look at them again. One editor would like to rename the article to Manipulation (human behavior). Is there agreement, or do we need to discuss?

Are both editors in agreement that the article can be expanded? Will each editor please make a one-paragraph statement either detailing the expansion that they want or listing the points that they want expanded, or explaining why expansion is not necessary?

One editor has put a {{disputed}} tag on the article. Please specify what parts of the article you are disputing, so that we can address those disputes in this discussion.

There are other editors who have been discussing on the article talk page. Either they should be invited to take part in this discussion, or we can close this discussion to move it back to the article talk page. Do the editors want to continue this discussion and invite the other editors, or to close this discussion to move it back to the article talk page? Robert McClenon (talk) 16:04, 11 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

First statements by editors (manipulation)[edit]

I disagree with renaming the article to Manipulation (human behavior), since Object manipulation is also human behavior and there is ambiguity in that. I would note there is significant overlap between psychological manipulation and affect induction + mood induction, although the two concepts are distinct (see [1])

I agree the article can be expanded, and I wish to expand all sections of the current article. ie: lead section, characteristics, mental illness and assessment. I am not qualified to write a section on history/background, but I would also like to see that added.

These are the factually disputed elements for which I added the {{disputed}} tag:

  • "For males, higher levels of emotional intelligence, social information processing, indirect aggression, and self-serving cognitive distortions significantly predicted emotional manipulation [...] For females, being younger, higher levels of emotional intelligence, indirect aggression, primary psychopathic traits, and lower levels of social awareness significantly predicted emotional manipulation. However, for females, emotional intelligence acted as a suppressor" - I believe this information is superseded by this newer review article which includes this quoted article as a citation: "[...] gender was found to have a moderating effect in the relationship between ability-based EI and non-prosocial emotional manipulation. The relationship was stronger for males than females, thereby supporting our hypothesis. This suggests that, if males and females have equally high EI, males can be expected to be more manipulative for non-prosocial purposes than females; conversely, if the level of EI is low across genders, they may not differ in their levels of emotional manipulation."[2]
  • "In the extreme, it is a stratagem of tricksters, swindlers, and impostors who disrespect moral principles and take advantage of others’ frailty and gullibility. At the very least, manipulation is influence used to gain control, benefits, or privileges at the expense of the others." I believe the first sentence is factually incorrect as originating from an unreliable source for WP:MEDRS, and I believe the underlined text should be removed as this is the primary definition.
  • Influence and persuasion are neither positive nor negative for being an imprecise claim and not originating from a WP:MEDRS (it's a Forbes business article)
  • The Vulnerability-Description table: I believe it is factually incorrect as relying on an an unreliable source for trait-based rather than behavior-based descriptions, and is superseded by newer behavior sets such as this one: [3].
  • Manipulation is not part of factitious disorder or conduct disorder as listed in the mental illness section. It is also controversial to claim that manipulative behavior is part of borderline personality disorder as the article does.
  • EMS employs a ten-item scale to characterize the approaches used by individuals to manipulate. I believe this is factually incorrect as described in the cited publication the main role of the EMS was to measure correlates with emotional intelligence and personality traits.

I would prefer the discussion to continue here rather on the talk page. I apologise it was my mistake not to offer other editors there to come to DRN and thank wiki-psyc for doing so.

References

  1. ^ Joseph, Dana L.; Chan, Micaela Y.; Heintzelman, Samantha J.; Tay, Louis; Diener, Ed; Scotney, Victoria S. (May 2020). "The manipulation of affect: A meta-analysis of affect induction procedures". Psychological Bulletin. 146 (4): 355–375. doi:10.1037/bul0000224. ISSN 1939-1455.
  2. ^ Ngoc, Nguyen Nhu; Tuan, Nham Phong; Takahashi, Yoshi (October 2020). "A Meta-Analytic Investigation of the Relationship Between Emotional Intelligence and Emotional Manipulation". SAGE Open. 10 (4): 215824402097161. doi:10.1177/2158244020971615. ISSN 2158-2440.
  3. ^ Hyde, Jane; Grieve, Rachel (July 2014). "Able and willing: Refining the measurement of emotional manipulation". Personality and Individual Differences. 64: 131–134. doi:10.1016/j.paid.2014.02.036. ISSN 0191-8869.

Darcyisverycute (talk) 01:49, 12 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

From Wiki-psyc: This exercise is hard to respond to because Darcyisverycute is asking for WP:TNT and considers references like Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, American Psychiatric Association, Forbes to be problematic. The Manipulation (psychology) topic is a very basic subject, the article is pretty good as it is and should continue on its current trajectory with incremental edits as it has for 11 years, 545 editors, and 1,300 edits. In an article in the Stanford Encyclopedia [3] it says manipulation manifests itself in all the fields of activity of the individual, basically in all human relationships, even in love, religion, philosophy, science, art, etc. It focuses on all these aspects, proving that manipulations in itself represents an inherent social phenomenon for the contemporary human being.

Narrowing and redefining manipulation as a pathology/mental illness is WP:ORIGINAL. There is no reputable source to substantiate this. Pathological people can manipulate, but manipulation, itself, is not inherently pathological.

The article currently provides links to mental conditions where manipulation is part of the symptomology. I think it makes sense to discuss, for example, a study of manipulation related to the Dark Triad in the Dark Triad article rather than in a general article about manipulation. Wiki-psyc (talk) 22:36, 12 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Second statement by moderator (manipulation)[edit]

It appears that Darcyisverycute wants to make numerous changes to the article, and that Wiki-psyc has not proposed any specific changes to the article, and disagrees with the need for the changes. If my understanding is incorrect, then the editors should restate and explain. If my understanding is correct, then the next step is for Darcyisverycute to put their requested changes into the form of a "laundry list", a numbered list of items (numbered 1 to N), each being one paragraph, either stating specifically what they want to change, or that they want to rewrite a section. I will then, in the third stage of this mediation, ask Wiki-psyc to respond to each item either by accepting it, disagreeing with it entirely (rejecting it), or stating that they want to work on it or compromise on it. It is Darcyisverycute's turn to provide the list, at this point. Both editors may ask any questions and may disagree with my plan. Then it will be Wiki-psyc's turn to reply. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:10, 14 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Just to restate, this doesn't mean that any of the changes will be made, and this doesn't mean that any of the changes won't be made. At this point, we are just breaking up or breaking down the scope.

Clarification[edit]

For now, if the item to be rewritten is a paragraph, you may provide the proposed text. If the item to be rewritten is a section of more than one paragraph, just indicate that you want to rewrite it. You may provide the laundry list now. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:41, 14 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Second statements by editors (manipulation)[edit]

Robert McClenon, I believe your understanding of the situation is correct. I will go ahead with your suggested plan unless there are objections from wiki-psyc. I would like to ask, when you say each being one paragraph, [...] that they want to rewrite a section. for sections that I wish to rewrite, should I be adding the suggested rewrite as a paragraph, or just saying that I wish to rewrite it? Thanks Darcyisverycute (talk) 06:05, 14 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Laundry list:

(1) Lead section: Proposed rewrite

Manipulation or emotional manipulation is behavior designed to exploit, control, or otherwise influence others to one’s advantage.[1] Definitions vary in which behavior is specifically included, influenced by both culture and whether used in clinical or non-clinical contexts.[2] Skills necessary for manipulation can be used for both prosocial and antisocial purposes.[3] Antisocial or non-prosocial manipulation has been described as using "skills to advance their own agendas or self-serving motives at the expense of others",[3] whereas prosocial behavior is "a voluntary act intended to help or benefit another individual or group of individuals".[4] Manipulation is correlated with higher levels of emotional intelligence,[3] and is a behavioral component of the Machiavellianism personality trait. Manipulation is also related to affect induction, where emotions are manipulated under experimental conditions.[5]

(2) Lead section, second paragraph: Move to a new "Ethics" section -- this could be expanded much further but my proposal for now is to just move it to a separate one since I am not an expert on the ethics aspect.

(3) Characteristics of manipulators: Rename section title to "etiology" or "causes" or "risk factors"

(4) Characteristics of manipulators: Rewrite section

(5) Manipulation and mental illnesses: Move to subsection "Mental health" under the title of the section for (3)

(6) Manipulation and mental illnesses: Rewrite section

(7) Clinical assessment tools: Promote from subsection heading to section heading

(8) Clinical assessment tools: Rewrite section

(9) See also: unbold entries and remove those already covered by the disambiguation page

(10) Further reading: "Modulated Feelings: The Pleasurable-Ends-Model of Manipulation" and "Then again, what is manipulation? A broader view of a much-maligned concept" should be converted to inline citations. The rest of the articles in the further reading section should be removed. This is for not meeting MEDMOS and for being too old, and as far as I can tell they are not used in the article. (I would not rule out using them in a future "History" section however.)

(11) Assuming the ethics stuff gets moved to a separate section, I think it might be worthwhile to add the article to Wikiproject philosophy as well.

Thanks Darcyisverycute (talk) 09:04, 15 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

References

  1. ^ "Manipulation". APA Dictionary of Psychology. Washington, DC: American Psychological Association. n.d. Retrieved 10 October 2021.
  2. ^ Potter, Nancy Nyquist (April 2006). "What is Manipulative Behavior, Anyway?". Journal of Personality Disorders. 20 (2): 139–156. doi:10.1521/pedi.2006.20.2.139. ISSN 0885-579X.
  3. ^ a b c Ngoc, Nguyen Nhu; Tuan, Nham Phong; Takahashi, Yoshi (October 2020). "A Meta-Analytic Investigation of the Relationship Between Emotional Intelligence and Emotional Manipulation". SAGE Open. 10 (4): 215824402097161. doi:10.1177/2158244020971615. ISSN 2158-2440.
  4. ^ Rodriguez, Lucas Marcelo; Mesurado, Belén; Moreno, José Eduardo (2018-11-29), "Ethical Position, Empathy and Prosocial Behaviour Model: Its Contribution to Prevention and Psychotherapeutic Approaches of Antisocial Disorders", Psychiatry and Neuroscience Update, Cham: Springer International Publishing, pp. 273–286, ISBN 978-3-319-95359-5, retrieved 2022-05-08
  5. ^ Joseph, Dana L.; Chan, Micaela Y.; Heintzelman, Samantha J.; Tay, Louis; Diener, Ed; Scotney, Victoria S. (April 2020). "The manipulation of affect: A meta-analysis of affect induction procedures". Psychological Bulletin. 146 (4): 355–375. doi:10.1037/bul0000224. ISSN 1939-1455.

Third statement by moderator (manipulation)[edit]

Both editors should be aware that this may be a long content dispute resolution. Be prepared for this to take one to three months.

Darcyisverycute has listed eleven changes that they want to make to the article. Wiki-psyc may now reply to each of the 11 points by saying either that they agree, in which case that change will be made, or that they disagree, or that they would like to compromise or negotiate. Either editor may make any other concise statements or ask questions. This is primarily the turn for Wiki-psyc to respond to the eleven points. If you disagree with a change and want to leave the article as is, disagree briefly. It is only necessary to reply at length if you want to compromise. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:58, 15 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Third statements by editors (manipulation)[edit]

I'm willing to commit 1-3 months for this. I appreciate Robert McClenon and wiki-psyc for participating in this mediation. Darcyisverycute (talk) 04:51, 16 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Robert, I'd like to suggest that before we invest 30-90 days doing a WPTNT and a rewrite of 11 years worth of of editors work, we should ask to see a few substantial references that show that Darcyisverycute's fundamental proposition is valid, specifically that (1) Manipulation is a mental disorder/pathology and (2) the "mental disorder" is the primary definition/use of term. All of her recommendations she has made are based on this premise. It will be very hard to find compromise on what to put in an "etiology" or cause section if there is not agreement that this is a disease or disorder that has an etiology. I've been in medicine for 40 years and I am unaware of this disorder. It seems the American Psychological Association, World Health Organization (WHO), American Medical Association, Oxford and Britannica are also unaware. But certainly, we all should be open minded to hear her out and we could exhaust this exploration in a day or two. We already have 3,000 words of polite and cooperative discussion on the talk page and another 3,000 here to indicate good faith. Indeed, if there is substantial evidence that manipulation is disorder/pathology, and the disorder is the primary use of the term, I believe the editors would find compromise rather easily. Whereas without it, the only reasonable response I can give to the suggested rewrite of the article introduction summary is that it is not supported by the article, nor the clinical literature, and that terms like prosocial, non-prosocial, affect induction, antisocial, and Machiavellianism are overly complex terms for a summary statement on a very basic concept (manipulation) and most readers will be going back to Google to find another source about manipulation that they can read and comprehend.

I'd also like to ask that we remove the

tag from the article as it has not be established that there are factual inaccuracies.

What substantial reference can we examine to verify that (1) Manipulation is a mental disorder/pathology and (2) the "mental disorder" is the primary definition/use of term? Wiki-psyc (talk) 12:38, 16 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Fourth statement by moderator (manipulation)[edit]

Wiki-psyc has expressed a concern that the whole rewrite effort may be misguided. So rather than try to address eleven points, we will focus first on the first point, the lede section, which leads into the other changes. For now I am not planning to try to analyze the differences between the existing lede and the proposed lede, but to ask the editors to address the arguments for and against the rewriting of the lede. Each editor should provide a statement consisting of anywhere between one and several paragraphs supporting or criticizing either the current lede or the proposed lede. I will then decide what pieces of this content issue will be addressed next. So, please assess either the current lede or the proposed lede. Robert McClenon (talk) 06:19, 17 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

You may also submit one to three questions for the other editor. Do not answer the questions. I will decide whether to ask them. Robert McClenon (talk) 06:19, 17 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

You may also ask any questions to be answered by the moderator.

Fourth statements by editors (manipulation)[edit]

If I understand correctly, I am meant to choose to either do one option or the other, so I will say what I think could be improved with the article's current lead.

The sourcing of the lead section is somewhat poor in that it does not cite or appear to base its claims from any review articles for a topic which they are available, which makes it difficult to determine to what extent this description is accepted by other academics and disciplines.

The first paragraph in the lead fails to define the concept in the broad scope with which the term is used. I will compare the definition to what is used at wikitionary: (transitive) To influence or control someone in order to achieve a specific purpose, especially one that is unknown to the one being manipulated and beneficial to the manipulator; to use - both this definition and the one in the first paragraph of the lead section are quite broad, and I would note the wikitionary one does not claim it must occur at the expense of others. While wikitionary is useful in its brief form, I think the current lead does not sufficiently indicate the breadth of the term, and how the definition differs among demographics and contexts. The second and third sentences say "in the extreme" and "at the very least", which suggests a continuum of some sort to define the term, although what lies on middle-points on this continuum is unclear, and the cited sources do not clearly discuss any such continuum.

The second paragraph contextualises manipulation in the ethics framework of other forms of social influence, although it claims to make an ambiguous claim/judgement that "influence and persuasion are neither positive nor negative". I think the 2022 publication in the general references is not sufficiently addressed in the lead, for example to quote the source Conceptualizing manipulation is no easy task, not just because there are many intuitions involved.[4] The second paragraph also fails to contextualise the term as it is used and compared in psychology literature. The lead section fails to explain which interdisciplinary fields are involved in studying manipulation, which could include for example ethics, criminology, marketing and advertising, behavioral psychology, clinical psychology. I will note the article is a member of WikiProject Marketing & Advertising. Lastly, the lead section fails to identify the origins of the concept (who developed it, who are the major contributors to surrounding theory and when did this all happen), and clearly establish why it is an important concept in the relevant fields with evidence such as statistics or statements from subject matter experts. Darcyisverycute (talk) 08:14, 18 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I am out of town and unable to respond until Wednesday. Thanks for your patience. Wiki-psyc (talk) 00:11, 19 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Fifth statement by moderator (manipulation)[edit]

One editor, Darcyisverycute, has responded to my request to support or criticize either the current lede or the proposed lede. As the rules say, I expect editors to reply to my questions within 48 hours. I am willing to allow for breaks for editors who are temporarily unable to participate in a timely manner. I am now asking Wiki-psyc to reply within 24 hours, either as I had previously requested, or at least to give some idea of what their schedule will be. The alternative, if the editors will not be able to engage in discussion, will be a series of RFCs. So can User:Wiki-psyc please provide some response within 24 hours? Robert McClenon (talk) 19:02, 22 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

You may also submit one to three questions for the other editor. Do not answer the questions. I will decide whether to ask them.

You may also ask any questions to be answered by the moderator. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:02, 22 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Fifth statements by editors (manipulation)[edit]

Working on reply now Wiki-psyc (talk) 13:56, 23 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I do see validity in breaking manipulation down into the subcategories of Enhancing: Diverting, Worsening, Being inauthentic, or Concealing and characterizing the first two as being constructive (prosocial is not a common term), the third and fourth being destructive, and the fifth is considered neutral. This would be best in the body of the article.

Darcyisverycute has not provided a substantial reference saying Manipulation is a pathology. I've read through the Article talk page, this review, google scholar, and texts in my library and I can find no reliable source characterizing manipulation as a disorder/pathology. There is no "clinical" and "sub-clinical" manipulation.

Additionally, I think the intro should be in common language, and not use technical terms that provide no additional insight over common language and force most readers to look up the term. This is "techno-babble" and our professional organizations are encouraging their clinicians to abandon this style when communicating with the general public. The purpose of the article is to reach readers, not impress them. Darcyisverycute wants to introduced this unnecessary complexity in the second and third sentence of the article.

Lastly, sure there are cultural difference in manipulation - there are cultural differences in just about everything - but are there "significant" cultural differences; enough to put in the intro? We would really need to see a significant reference on this. Wiki-psyc (talk) 16:19, 23 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I have a question for the moderator: there have been a few edits to the article, the most recent one being [5]. I notified the user who initially removed the {{disputed}} and disambiguation templates here along with reverting the template removal, and wiki-psyc has restored the version without either template. On reflection, I should have also added {{DRN}} to its talk page when I filed this DRN, I only just realised that template existed now. To avoid an edit war over templates, what would you recommend here, Robert McClenon? Darcyisverycute (talk) 16:15, 24 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Please reread the guidelines for Dispute Resolution and if you feel the guidelines provide for you to revert other editors and add banners, I won't contest it. I would prefer to stay focused on what I think is the main point of contention here, is there a substantial reference that establishes manipulation as a pathology/mental illness? Wiki-psyc (talk) 21:03, 24 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Sixth statement by moderator (manipulation)[edit]

It is correct that I said that the participants should not edit the article while discussion is in progress.

I have no interest in any controversy about a tag on the article. Tagging controversies are essentially stupid. The purpose of this discussion is to improve the article and to resolve any issues that are the subject of tags. Tags indicate that there is a content controversy, and moderated discussion should resolve the controversy, and it is not important whether there are tags on the article while content discussion is in progress. I will collapse any further discussion of tags, because tagging controversies are stupid. Robert McClenon (talk) 06:52, 26 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Wiki-psyc asks: "is there a substantial reference that establishes manipulation as a pathology/mental illness?" I would like Darcyisverycute to answer that question (in addition to the back-and-forth discussion mentioned below).

I will change the rules at this point and invite the editors to engage in back-and-forth discussion on the lede section. This will continue for between three and five days if it is productive. If it is not productive or is repetitive, I will stop it in one to two days. Robert McClenon (talk) 06:52, 26 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Sixth statements by editors (manipulation)[edit]

Thank you for the replies. I apologise for making drama out of the content tag. I will note the disambiguation template was also removed and I think that should be restored but I will not edit the article until the DRN is resolved.

I will address wiki-psyc's question: At this point I'm not sure that the word "pathology" is the most accurate word for the meaning I am going for, rather that I think manipulation can occur in the presence of one or more mental disorders (which I'll refer to as clinical), and it can also occur in the presence of no mental disorders (subclinical or non-clinical). In other words, my understanding is that behavior is clinically relevant if it falls under the scope of a mental disorder. It's not up to us what constitutes a mental disorder or not, the best we can hope to do is explain the labels the APA and WHO use. The APA and WHO don't seem to define emotional manipulation, as it isn't viewed as a disorder in itself, instead just one part of some mental disorders.

Here is a paper, of which there are a fair few, which distinguishes between a different set of behaviors in psychopathy as clinical and subclinical:[6]. Here is a paper which talks about the clinical and subclinical role that empathy plays in narcissistic personality disorder:[7], from which I think this quote accurately summarises my opinion: Although a pattern of deceitful, manipulative, and impulsive behavior is inherent in the syndrome of psychopathy, these features are not necessarily a component of NPD. In other words, these two sources point to manipulation being an essential component of psychopathy, and not an essential component of NPD. Manipulation is not a defining characteristic of NPD, but it is a defining characteristic of ASPD according to [8]. So in this context the clinical relevance of manipulation depends on the specific disorder.

The term manipulation also has slightly different meaning in forensic psychology vs clinical psychology, mainly stemming from the continued use of the term "psychopathy" in forensic psychology but the term isn't really used in clinical psychology. As such, I think it is important if manipulation is acknowledged as related to psychopathy, that we note in the article that it's more often used as a forensic label based on a syndrome rather than a clinical diagnosis. There is evidently a lot more disagreement than just this, for example The psychological treatment of psychopathy is rife with controversy and conceptual disagreement. [9] which also contributes to difficulty of defining the amorphous concept of emotional manipulation.

I look forward to discussion about the lead section. Darcyisverycute (talk) 07:59, 26 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Response from Wiki-psyc:

Wiki-psyc said: Is there a substantial reference that establishes manipulation as a pathology/mental illness?
Darcy’said: “not sure that the word "pathology" is the most accurate word”… “The APA and WHO don't seem to define emotional manipulation, as it isn't viewed as a disorder…”
Wiki-psyc says: The APA actually has defined it here. I think, given all that has been said, it can be reasonably concluded that manipulation is not a pathology/mental illness and consistant with that, re-writing and re-formatting the article to look like a mental illness article ("etiology”, "causes" , "risk factors" , treatment) might not be a constructive change.
Darcy’said: “I think manipulation can occur in the presence of one or more mental disorders (which I'll refer to as clinical)”
Wiki-psyc says: There is no mention of “clinical manipulation ” or “subclinical manipulation” in the paper you reference (Maddi). The conventional use of “clinical” and “subclinical” applies to the mental illness, not the symptoms. We don’t say that a mentally healthy person has sub-clinical charisma, subclinical persuasiveness, subclinical manipulation, etc.
Darcy’ said: “Manipulation is not a defining characteristic of NPD, but it is a defining characteristic of ASPD”
Wiki-psyc says: I respect you Darcy and I don't want to pile on, but Manipulation is not a defining feature of NPD or ASPD. For ASPD, it's one of 7 symptoms of which only 1 must be present per the DSM-5 (APA).
I contend that you are looking at one-off, specialized papers that were written in the context of specific mental illnesses. These findings can’t be generalized to the population as a whole. It's also important to distinguish between early and one-off research and advanced research that is moving toward expert consensus. In law and in science, it’s important that we all look at the body of case law or research. We don’t become constitutional scholars by reading a couple of case law briefs and we don’t become scientists by reading a few papers. I hope this helps to understand my position..
Wiki-psyc recommendations:
1. Look to see if it is acceptable to other editors to expand "manipulation" in the Wikipedia ASPD, NPD, Dark Triad, and/or Psychopathy articles. Research and papers you have quoted were written in the context of one or more of these specific personality types/disorders. Currently, there are only passing mentions of "manipulation" in each of these Wikipedia articles - no development of the meaning of term in the specific context to the illness (as the original researchers intended).
2. Keep the general format of the current manipulation article "as is" but add a subsection that discusses the universality of manipulation (e.g., Babies learn to manipulate before they can speak. Children manipulate one parent against the other. Family Theory, etc.)
3. Add a subsection entitled "Types" (or similar) Break manipulation down into the subcategories of Enhancing: Diverting, Worsening, Being inauthentic, or Concealing and characterize the first two as being constructive (prosocial is not a common term), the third and fourth being destructive, and the fifth is considered neutral.
4. Consider re-naming the article to Manipulation (human behavior) becuase that implies an even broader scope.
Note: For clarity, text repeated from earlier discussions is green.
With respect, Wiki-psyc (talk) 04:39, 27 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
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As per WP:WAX and WP:SSE (two essays - not policy), I think it is desirable to have consistency across articles about how human behavior is described, and I agree that consistency is currently lacking on human behavior articles. Some examples of this inconsistency I looked for now: Attention seeking and Social loafing have causes sections. Avoidance coping has a section on treatment although it is not a mental disorder. Behavior change (individual) describes the causes in the section-heading as explicitly non-medical. Behavioral confirmation refers to causes as "Motivational foundations". Obedience (human behavior)#Factors affecting obedience refers to "factors", very similar to causes just based off of definitions. We could at a wikiproject level by consensus, choose to adopt any or all of these as standard (RfC may be a better approach for this, just food for thought.) Currently, I am proposing the section "Characteristics of manipulators" be renamed to "causes" or something similar for clarity of the purpose of the section, for being consistent with some other articles, and to reduce stigmatising language. Maybe "predispositions"?
I'd like to come to agreement about my proposed lead section so I will respond to just one other thing about that to keep my reply shorter. I think the intro should be in common language, and not use technical terms that provide no additional insight over common language and force most readers to look up the term I agree to an extent, in that making the lead section accessible is important, and I also think that mentioning related technical concepts is nessecary to provide a comprehensive overview of the concept. I think MOS:INTRO offers useful guidance that it's okay to use technical terms along with a short description, it's important for the lead section to "ease readers in", and significant information in the lead should also be covered in the main article. What do you think of this, and do you have any other specific advice about my draft/proposed lead section? Darcyisverycute (talk) 13:39, 28 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
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I do not think taking this discussion to another forum, which would be the fourth, is a good use of volunteer resources. Wiki-psyc (talk) 18:21, 29 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Seventh statement by moderator (Manipulation)[edit]

This case was prematurely archived by a bot that was following a rule for when to archive cases (because it is a bot), and I have unarchived it, and will be checking to ensure that it does not get prematurely archived again. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:56, 2 August 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

There has been a proposal to add a section on types of manipulation. What do each of the editors think of that?

There has been a proposal to rename the article. What do each of the editors think of that?

If the editors are agreeable, I will create a temporary page for the rewriting of the lede section, and I will provide a set of rules for the rewriting.

At this point, again, address your answers to the moderator. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:56, 2 August 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Seventh statements by editors (manipulation)[edit]

Thank you Robert McClenon. I am amenable to a section on types of manipulation, ideally with reliable sources meeting WP:MEDRS if possible. Examples of the types in that section may also be useful, although I think it would take some nuance to ensure examples are reliably sourced and do not reflect an overall culturally biased point of view.

I support the article renaming with the single caveat that object manipulation can also plausibly fall under the category of "human behavior" and so WP:DDAB possibly applies here. If such a renaming takes place, I think it would be useful to indicate on the talk page headers somewhere that it's to reflect the term as used in the article is described more broadly than just under psychology.

I am open to trying a temporary page for a lead section rewrite. Thanks Darcyisverycute (talk) 09:02, 2 August 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Yes, let's go forward. Wiki-psyc (talk) 13:13, 3 August 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Eighth statement by moderator (Manipulation)[edit]

The lede section is relatively short. I have copied the existing text of the lede section to Draft:Manipulation (psychology)/Lede. You may edit the draft, and may discuss your edits on the draft talk page. Be civil and concise. Discuss content, not contributors. I am establishing a rule of 1RR, one revert. If there is reverting, there is not a consensus, and we will come back to moderated discussion. This rework will continue as long as it appears to be making progress. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:40, 3 August 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

If you have any questions about this procedure that you want me to answer, ask them in the space for eighth statements. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:40, 3 August 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Statement 8.1 by moderator[edit]

Editing of the draft of the lede section is underway. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:11, 4 August 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Eighth statements by editors (manipulation)[edit]

I will add my edits today. Jusr want everyone to know I'm still engaged. Thanks. Wiki-psyc (talk) 13:14, 6 August 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

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