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Query[edit]

Hello, Bs,

I was just looking over a former admin's account where they had lapsed into inactivity some years ago and was wondering if you had a rough estimate for how many current admins will lose their privileges due to the Village Pump RfC earlier this year. I know that it is only August and a lot of things can happen over the next four months but assuming that things continue on as usual, do you expect Wikipedia to lose dozens of admins due to not meeting the new standards of activity? Or hundreds? Of course, I'm not looking for an exact answer, which won't be known until January, just a hint at the scale of the change brought on by this RfC. And, also, I realize that many deactivated admins could return to reestablish their privileges in 2023 after resuming a more substantial level of activity on the project.

Thanks for any clue you can offer! Liz Read! Talk! 21:29, 7 August 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hi Liz! I know there was a table Worm That Turned put together that offers some insight into that. It was last updated in March but I would imagine it would still give a rough idea of what to expect. 28bytes (talk) 23:31, 7 August 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
And some stats that WTT added into the RfC suggested that for 100 edits/year for a 3 year period, 396 administrators would be affected and 67 others warned. The RfC closed with the line drawn at 100 edits/year for a 5 year period, so it's going to be around that order of magnitude. So hundreds. Stephen 00:12, 8 August 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Many of these have had no admin actions in the last 5 years, so the actual impact to the project is pretty much zero. Losing 400 admins that don't actually do anything adminy is more of a push than a loss. They can still edit, although many don't do much of that anymore. Dennis Brown - 00:19, 8 August 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
(After edit conflict) For a little perspective, there are about 400 admins who have not made a single logged admin action so far this calendar year. Having 400 admins desysopped at the end of the year is not likely to have much effect on admin activity. - Donald Albury 00:22, 8 August 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I have been playing with my table every so often, but I didn't want to edit the one that was part of the RfC, so I created a admin activity update table, which I update every so often. It's not 100% accurate, as it doesn't handle non-standard usernames and I haven't taken into account recent sysops / desysops, but your welcome to look there to get a feel for how many individuals were originally going to disappear who have now returned sufficiently to activity. That said, Cryptic's Quarry (below) would likely be a much easier way of seeing the data.
Either way, to give an idea of the uptake - We were looking at desysopping about 200 admins, we're down to about 180 now. I agree that when the date is looming, we'll probably get a little mad rush from a handful more, so I'm expecting around 150. WormTT(talk) 07:45, 8 August 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Currently down to 180 still on track to be desysopped once this is effective.
I'm betting that those on the lower end of that query are least likely to be desysopped. If they've been averaging just one or two edits per year for that long just to avoid being desysopped under criterion (1), it strains credulity that they won't suddenly make just enough to game criterion (2) too. —Cryptic 00:51, 8 August 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Maybe some of those will actually come back and get active, which would be a good thing. We need admin, we just don't need editors who are admin in name only. Dennis Brown - 02:14, 8 August 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
(edit conflict) From what I've seen the announcement of the new rule change in April did cause several previously-inactive admins to (at least temporarily) return to activity. * Pppery * it has begun... 02:26, 8 August 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I agree with Dennis Brown. It would be wonderful if some of these inactive administrators decided to return to an active role. But inactive administrators have the same impact as inactive former administrators on the administrative work load, which is no impact at all. Cullen328 (talk) 02:25, 8 August 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
If past experience was that once an admin became inactive they almost never returned then I'd agree that how we treat currently inactive admins would make little or no impact on the workload. But my experience is that some admins do come back after gaps that sometimes run for years, and given our RFA problems, I think we should be trying to be more open to people who take sabbaticals from this site. Currently inactive admins make no contribution to the current admin workload, but given past experience it is would be safe to assume that currently inactive admins will make important contributions to the admin workload of five, ten and fifteen years time. ϢereSpielChequers 18:36, 9 August 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
As it stands, a former admin who was desysopped for inactivity may ask for the bit back, if it has been less than two years since their last edit and less than five years since their last logged admin action. So, if I am interpreting the criteria correctly, a former admin who had performed a logged admin action shortly before being desysopped, and edited WP at least once a year thereafter, could request the bit back up to five years after losing it for inactivity. I think it was clear in the RfC resulting in the change to the criteria for desysopping for inactivity that there were concerns about inactive admins losing touch with the current norms and expectations for admins. I'm not sure the community meant to allow up to 5 years for a return. - Donald Albury 19:41, 9 August 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
An interesting loophole, but do keep in mind that bureaucrats must be convinced the admin in question will make an effort to return to activity. Someone making a logged action, being desysopped, and popping back up again four years (and five edits) later to "get the bit back" will likely be turned down. On the other hand, for an admin who stays active and makes hundreds of edits after being desysopped, I would not have an issue restoring their perms.
After all, an admin that voluntarily relinquishes their perms can get it back within 5 years; I do not see this as being much different. Primefac (talk) 20:21, 9 August 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Technically speaking the 5-year rule only applied to inactivity desysops, as Wikipedia:Administrators actually says In the case of removal due to inactivity, for any administrator who does not have a logged administrator action in five years, bureaucrats should not restore administrator access upon request. * Pppery * it has begun... 15:15, 11 August 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I did say "may ask". :) I have this wild idea. Could we change If an editor has had at least two years of uninterrupted inactivity (no edits) between the removal of the admin tools and the re-request, regardless of the reason for removal, the editor will need to instead request through the WP:RFA process. to If an editor has made fewer tham 100 edits over the previous 60 months prior to the re-request, regardless of the reason for removal, the editor will need to instead request through the WP:RFA process. I realize this would be instruction creep, but I think it would make the process for returning the admin bit more in line with the intent of the RfC. - Donald Albury 21:53, 9 August 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Do you actually mean what you said, or do you mean If there is any 60-month period in which the editor has made less than 100 edits since their desysopping ...? The rule as you proposed it is largely redundant to the existing subjective check for returning to activity. * Pppery * it has begun... 15:15, 11 August 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
As I said, my interpretation of the current wording is that if an ex-admin has made at least one edit within the preceding two years, and at least one logged admin action within the preceding five years, they are eligible to apply to have the bit restored. The second provision means that any eligibility to regain the bit will end by 60 months after desysopping, depending when the ex-admin last performed a logged admin action. I'm suggesting that we raise the floor for eligibility for restoring the bit. Whether or not any change is made to the criteria for eligibility for regaining the bit, we are depending on the crats to exercise good judgement. Donald Albury 23:18, 11 August 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Do any of the current lists check for deleted contributions as well, or will that have to be dealt with manually? With years-old contributions in question I can certainly imagine cases in which admins start out passing the requirement and later appear not to be meeting it.Dekimasuよ! 14:46, 11 August 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Dekimasu the current inactivity process accounts for this, but it is manual. — xaosflux Talk 14:51, 11 August 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Circling back to this discussion, this information is much, much more detailed than I expected, thank you. I didn't participate in the RfC so I missed the table that was presented by WTT but both User:Worm That Turned/Admin activity update and User:Worm That Turned/Admin activity are very impressive to see. Sorry to see all of those pink squares but I, too, think it's better to have a realistic estimate of how many active admins there are rather than having a misleading count of over a thousand admins on the "active" roster.
My father was once a ship captain and he always renewed his license long after he stopped sailing so I understand admins meeting the minimum standards of activity so they are able to do occasional tasks that require amin privileges like deleting their own User pages or reviewing deleted content. But, after years of discontent, the community has spoken and now all marginally active admins will need to raise their level of activity (which still isn't that high, I think), if they want to carry the mop. Thanks again for answering my query and returning to this perennial subject. Liz Read! Talk! 20:07, 11 August 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Yeah, I hung on to my class B commercial driver's license for years after I was likely to ever need it again. Donald Albury 23:20, 11 August 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

When will admin who are impacted by the new activity requirements be desysopped?[edit]

I had been presuming that they would get desysopped in January but Primefac has written that it's April. Can this be clarified? Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 11:46, 11 August 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I was under the impression it would be January. I assume Primefac is under the impression that the notification cannot happen prior to January, but I see no reason this cannot happen. I'd expect the first set of talkpage notifications to go out next month, and the second set in December, leading to the desysops in January. (Going further - and reading the RfC, there wasn't a lot of discussion about the implementation date, but when asked, I specifically said "I don't think anyone believes going from 1-100 is a good thing, so giving them over 6 months to reach the activity level seemed fair and a reasonable sacrifice to get the proposal over the line". When I wrote the RfC, I intended (and thought it was clear) that the desysopping itself would come into force on 1st January, and notifications should work back from that date. WormTT(talk) 11:51, 11 August 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Not that I am a crat, but my reread of the policy text suggests that the criteria comes into effect in January but the notifications went into effect immediately. In other words I agree with Worm. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 11:59, 11 August 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I wasn't supportive of the RFC (I wanted something more comprehensive) but Worm's reading of consensus is the same as mine. Dennis Brown - 12:15, 11 August 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The discussion seems to support starting the actual removals in January next year, provided we are able to get the notifications going in 3 weeks from now. The first batch may need to be manual, as I don't think the bot will be ready (or is even being worked on yet). — xaosflux Talk 13:05, 11 August 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Presumably by manual you mean MMS? Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 14:05, 11 August 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Barkeep49 MMS will be fine, as the new requirements are only for talk page. The list will need to be regenerated right before to make sure it is current. It's not a big job, just something to do. — xaosflux Talk 14:16, 11 August 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Indeed both that the email requirement has been removed and that an MMS list will need to be generated nearly at the time of MMS send. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 14:19, 11 August 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
So, the notifications won't be done by email? I expect there to be a lot of activity on this noticeboard come January! I know I don't have my Preferences set to receive email notices when someone posts to my user talk page and I bet most editors and admins who were very active at some point in their time on the project don't either. But just looking at WTT's tables, and having to check activity on alternate accounts, I can see where some of the work will need to be done manually. It'll be like a reprise of 2011 for our bureaucrats. Liz Read! Talk! 20:15, 11 August 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Liz correct, that was explicit from the RFC. They will be sent by user talk page message only. Note, everyone already got one, and will get at least 3 months notice - so it shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone that is modestly active. — xaosflux Talk 20:18, 11 August 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Honestly, I'd rather have BN flooded with "oh I guess I want to become more active" notices than just hear crickets. I did a big "inactives" purge of the AFCH list recently, and was pleasantly surprised at how many folks started reviewing again after a hiatus. Primefac (talk) 20:21, 11 August 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The first set of notifications are planned for 1 October. — JJMC89(T·C) 02:39, 17 August 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I have no issue if I am in the minority with my interpretation of the close; I am operating under the interpretation that the new rules, including notification requirements, go into effect on 1 January 2023. If it is the consensus that only the activity requirements are triggered on that date, then clearly the notifications can go out earlier. Primefac (talk) 13:36, 11 August 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]