Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/1984–85 USAC Championship Car season

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to List of USAC Championship Car seasons. There is clear consensus that standalone pages aren't appropriate here. There is less clarity as to the targets for redirecting; consensus is against the USAC page, but opinions are divided between List of USAC Championship Car seasons and the individual Indy race pages. There is marginally more support for the former, but if future talk page discussion determines that the Indy race pages are better targets, this discussion is no bar to retargeting. Vanamonde (Talk) 16:59, 6 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

1984–85 USAC Championship Car season[edit]

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Database entry articles that could be considered POV forks of the 1985 Indianapolis 500, 1986 Indianapolis 500, 1987 Indianapolis 500, 1988 Indianapolis 500, 1989 Indianapolis 500, 1990 Indianapolis 500, 1991 Indianapolis 500, 1992 Indianapolis 500, 1993 Indianapolis 500, 1994 Indianapolis 500, and 1995 Indianapolis 500 articles. Zero indication that the subjects covered here are independently notable from the respective Indy 500 articles or the List of USAC Championship Car seasons. HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 10:57, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Management, Motorsport, and Indiana. HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 10:57, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I am also nominating the following related pages because they all have the same issue:

HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 11:06, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Keep There are an abundance of independant, reliable sources that indicate that the USAC Gold Crown Championship (particuarly 1983-1995) was its own official entity and not simply "that year's Indy 500" or a "ceremonial title" or "imaginary" championship as some editors have attempted to suggest. A selection of supporting clippings are presented here. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. Those clippings, and additional similar citations can be added to the respective pages for clarity. In general, a championship season that just happened to have only one race is still a championship season in the records of the sanctioning body (United States Auto Club/USAC). Furthermore, I would reject any suggestion to merge the information into the respective Indianapolis 500 article, as it would lengthen already substantial sized articles, and would possibly create confusion as the race was technically part of two distinct points championships Doctorindy↔Talk 02:10, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- None of these sources seem to indicate independent notability from the respective Indianapolis 500 articles. Even if we were to include the contents of these sources, it would still amount to saying "the winner of the YYYY Indianapolis 500 was declared the USAC Gold Crown champion and received $XXXXXX in prize money". These articles are reporting generally on USAC prize giving ceremonies with numerous champions being honoured and rewarded, and the coverage of the Gold Crown championships themselves is usually nothing more than WP:ROUTINE noting of the prize money given. HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 02:52, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  The news articles support the notion that the sanctioning body (USAC) recognized their Gold Crown Champion, one of multiple champions that USAC recognizes and awards each year. That confirms its notability. While some of the articles are still working stubs/short, suggesting that they be deleted appears to be a case of WP:JNN, WP:JUSTAPOLICY, and perhaps even WP:IDL or WP:LACK. Doctorindy↔Talk 17:26, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  The USAC recognising these championships has no bearing on whether or not they are notable. No-one is debating that these titles were awarded, and of course they should still be mentioned at, for example, List of USAC Championship Car seasons. Notability comes from substantial coverage in reliable sources. The sources you've given are highly routine or trivial mentions (and indeed are more about the awards nights than these championships). A7V2 (talk) 02:57, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  
  Even if they are significant enough in their coverage, they are all from The Indianapolis Star. For establishing notability, multiple articles from one source still only count as a single source for purposes of the WP:GNG. -"Ghost of Dan Gurney" 22:18, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  A simple search of Newspapers.com netted over 10,000 articles mentioning the USAC Gold Crown championship from 1983-1995, in papers from coast to coast. Using the Indianapolis Star articles was simply an easy starting point. I hesitated to produce additional links because they were being flatly dismissed without consideration. These articles can be improved. But deleting these articles serves little useful purpose other than intentionally creating confusing gaps in the Championship Car seasons. Furthermore the original claim of WP:FORK would technically be invalid. The Indy 500 is part of the Gold Crown Championship, not the other way around. A championship season with only race is still a championship season. Once again, this appears to be a case of WP:LACK. Doctorindy↔Talk 15:56, 14 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  I read every one of the articles you gave above, and none provided substantial coverage of the respective USAC seasons, so please don't think they were being "dismissed without consideration". Please provide a source/sources which gives substantial coverage, even for one of these seasons. There could be 1,000,000 articles mentioning the Gold Crown championships from those years but mentions are not enough. I don't think WP:FORK is what you intended to link to, but to an extent I agree that the claim that these are WP:POV forks is a bit much, certainly there's no particular POV being expressed. Whether these are technically forks or not isn't really relevant as from all appearances they simply aren't notable, but can still be discussed at either the relevant Indy 500 race articles (which certainly are notable) or the List of USAC Championship Car seasons article. A7V2 (talk) 03:08, 15 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete or merge per nom. There doesn't appear to be any substantial coverage in reliable sources for these particular seasons. It would be sufficient to add a short section to each year's Indy 500 article and we could redirect them there, or even a few sentences about there only being one race each of these seasons at List of USAC Championship Car seasons and redirecting there instead since it already lists the champions of each season. A7V2 (talk) 03:00, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - It should be noted that the main page for United States Auto Club is a mess in its own right. Perhaps coverage of that entire organization is in need of WP:TNT. As such I have no opinion on any individual pages on that topic, broadly construed. -"Ghost of Dan Gurney" 04:56, 14 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, RL0919 (talk) 12:48, 15 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 19:25, 22 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect all to United States Auto Club#USAC Gold Crown Series which explains the situation in which for 11 years the Gold Crown Series consisted only of the Indy 500. All of the clippings provided by User:Doctorindy above appear to be quite similar, that is, reports from the Indianapolis Star about the USAC annual awards event where the Indy 500 winner was awarded the Gold Crown Series cash prize and awards, from eight different years. In most of these clippings, the Gold Crown Series is only a small part of the entire article anyway. If there are better sources about the individual seasons, I would need to see them before I could support keeping these articles. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 22:32, 22 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure United States Auto Club#USAC Gold Crown Series is the best destination. As GhostOfDanGurney commented, the main USAC page is in rather a poor state and may well wind up undergoing significant revisions at some point. The List of USAC Championship Car seasons seems like a more relevant place to redirect to where the relevant information could easily be included. HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 13:58, 28 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Final relist to consider redirect options along with Keep/Delete options.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 20:12, 29 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Suggest redirecting to the individual corresponding Indianapolis 500 pages, and moving the content to a section at the bottom of that Indianapolis page. For example 1984–85 USAC Championship Car season would redirect to 1985 Indianapolis 500. The small amount of content from 1984–85 USAC Championship Car season article would be relocated to the bottom of 1985 Indianapolis 500, under a new section titled 1984–85 USAC Gold Crown Championship. Doctorindy↔Talk 14:12, 1 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I can support this. I don't like redirecting all to United States Auto Club#USAC Gold Crown Series as much mostly because of how bad that article is. - "Ghost of Dan Gurney" ^(c/t) 22:48, 1 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.