User talk:TAnthony

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Mayfair Witches

It is inappropriate to list every single guest stars in the guest stars section. Go to Wikia or IMDb if you want to do that. Guest stars section is only notable guest stars such as credited as special guest stars/special appearances as part of the main cast (past or in the present) in another series in the same network, a famous non-actor such as musician or athlete. I am not sure you realized it or not, but all the guest stars are on the opening credits of this TV series. Co-starring actors only ones on the end credits of this TV series. Co-starring actors are not guest stars. Co-starring actors are actors who have super minor roles and are below guest stars. I understand some TV series have both guest stars in the opening credits and end credits, but this is not the case for this TV series. — YoungForever^(talk) 19:11, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for your message, and I definitely appreciate your ongoing contributions to TV articles, I've seen you around! That said, you do realize that you're defining who is an acceptable guest based on arbitrary criteria? The reason MOS:TVCAST has rules like "cast presented in credits order" is to avoid the POV debates over which character is more "important" than another, etc. The credits are the blueprint. I'm familiar with our conventions of defining guest stars/co-stars or whatever but that level of classification is not actually spelled out anywhere. And though these roles may not be huge in any given episode, they have a prominent credit and we can't just dismiss them as not notable because we "know better" that they're lesser players. Plus at this point, the cast list is not so large that it disrupts the article. I'm willing to remove the guest section for now as a message of good faith, but it seems to me that any of these characters who appear a second time should make the cut in future edits. Thanks!— TAnthony^Talk 19:38, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

It becomes a problem when some editors decided to list every single guest stars in the guest stars section which is considered to be WP:FANCRUFT and WP:INDISCRIMINATE. — YoungForever^(talk) 19:53, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

MOS:TVCAST says what it says: Remember to follow the notability guidelines when creating a cast list: not every fictional character ever created deserves to be listed. That's very broad. Listing credited cast is not necessarily "WP:FANCRUFT and WP:INDISCRIMINATE", this should be subject to a case-by-case determination as needed. You're relying on imaginary guidelines. And about this: you're making up rules. If a character credited as a co-star (for example, Melissa Chambers as Mawbel) appears in six episodes in the series, where is it written that she cannot/should not be listed as a recurring cast member? Our conventional definition of who is recurring is just that, a convention we collectively follow and not a rule or guideline.— TAnthony^Talk 20:37, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

I am not making up rules. I have been told many veteran editors that there is a general consensus and common practice on MOS:TV and WP:TV that we do not include co-starring actors because their roles are minor. Of course, there are special cases where a co-starring actor is relevant to the plot. It is absolutely not notable if co-starring actor appears in 6 episodes with only 1-2 lines each of the 6 episodes and is irrelevant to the plot. If a co-starring actor appears every episode, but hardly speak or get any spotlight to do anything notable, then they are just pretty much extras. — YoungForever^(talk) 21:35, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

I don't mean to come at you personally, BTW. I know there are a lot of references to general consensus and common practice in our TV discussions, but it's really a grey area until specific guidelines are established by consensus, or we can refer to a specific discussion that set some kind of precedent by consensus. We all police TV articles to maintain some consistency, but I bristle at made-up criteria like "It is absolutely not notable if co-starring actor appears in 6 episodes with only 1-2 lines each of the 6 episodes and is irrelevant to the plot." I know we've been conditioned to cling to common practice, but we shouldn't apply arbitrary rules like that across the board just because certain assertive editors support them, veteran or not. But this is a larger discussion.— TAnthony^Talk 21:50, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Plus, you and I don't get to decide if a character is "relevant to the plot". It may seem like common sense, but at its core that's interpretation, unless there's a reliable source. In this case, front-of-show credits lend legitimacy to these performers/roles, and there don't seem to be valid criteria to necessarily delist them.— TAnthony^Talk 21:55, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Listing every single guest stars is WP:FANCRUFT and WP:INDISCRIMINATE though according to many veteran editors. As I said, there are no guest stars on the end credits for this TV series, all the guest stars are listed in the opening credits. At this point, you are listing every single guest star. Do you not realize the list gets longer as new guest stars are added every episode? A co-starring actor appears in 6 episodes with only 1-2 lines each of the 6 episodes and their character is not even mention on episode summaries at all nor reliable sources of episode reviews by professional critics is not a notable cast member. — YoungForever^(talk) 22:11, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Do you know how many new guests will appear in this season's upcoming episodes? Is it written somewhere at what length a list becomes unmanageable? No, it's all a subjective decision we make as we go. And after one episode you can't make any judgment on who will or will not be named in a review or prove to meet your criteria of notability. And again, can you point to an actual discussion that establishes for the community by consensus that there is a detailed hierarchy to non-main cast members as explained in your comments? I honestly get your point completely, and know what excessive cast listings are, but this whole fixation on who is guest cast and who is co-star and who is relevant and who has enough lines is completely invented and not based on any real and useful need in articles. And by the way, co-star character Mawbel is mentioned in at least two reliable sources, Boston Herald (she's the only image of the series used) and Newsweek.— TAnthony^Talk 23:14, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

FYI, Newsweek is a questionable source post-2013, please see WP:NEWSWEEK which states post-2013 Newsweek articles are not generally reliable. — YoungForever^(talk) 23:39, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

And hey, I want to say again that even though we're both passionate about this, my argument is not with you but with some of the trends I've mentioned in the TV community at large.— TAnthony^Talk 23:23, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Yet, you keep insisting on listing every single guest stars ignoring MOS:TVCAST. — YoungForever^(talk) 00:09, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

How am I ignoring MOS:TVCAST? It does not specify how many are acceptable, or even any criteria. An editor deciding who makes the list based solely on how important he/she thinks they are is not a thing.— TAnthony^Talk 00:27, 11 January 2023 (UTC) And it says not every fictional character ever created which is a lot broader than "every single guest cast member on a particular TV series." I'm not saying notability isn't a factor, but I'm arguing that prominent credits may bestow a degree of notability. And I'm not saying every guest cast member should be listed in this situation just because they have a credit, but they also should not be precluded based on subjective and POV editor assessments based on how many lines they have or how the editor interprets their importance. Or just by the simple fact that they are credited a certain way.— TAnthony^Talk 00:35, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Your comments seemed to imply that guest starring is the same thing as co-starring even though they are two different levels of crediting. — YoungForever^(talk) 00:42, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

No, I understand the "difference" as you describe it. My Mawbel example was just to show that even someone credited as a co-star might get mentioned in media, you can't just discount them because you've deemed co-stars as glorified extras.— TAnthony^Talk 00:55, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Is a co-starring actor who has no lines at all, but appears in every single episode and credited as "nurse" a notable character? Most likely not. I am not completely opposing a guest stars section for this TV series, I am just opposing to listing every single guest stars on the guest stars section for this TV series. Guest stars section on TV series main articles are not for listing every single guest stars anyway, guest sections are for "notable guest stars". — YoungForever^(talk) 00:58, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

I watched the second episode on AMC+ on Friday and can confirmed that the entire guest starring cast is only in the opening credits. There are four new guest stars for the second episode as well. — YoungForever^(talk) 21:01, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

Yes I noticed that too! Thanks. — TAnthony^Talk 00:50, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

what can be done

Re: [1]. I'd suggest REFUNDing the List of Verbotene Liebe characters which if anyone has issues with could go to AfD. But it's weird to have a list of minor characters while the list of major, presumably, ones, is deleted... _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:35, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I did have List of Verbotene Liebe characters undeleted (and then redirected it) because I wanted to see if the format was similar to this one and what content was included, but as you know it was a bare list basically redundant of List of Verbotene Liebe cast members. I preserved List of Verbotene Liebe minor characters to see if any of the citations that aren't irretrievably dead could be used in the cast members list, and if some of the content would be helpful in my goal to write a character overview section for the main article. In any case, I'm going to redirect the minor character list within the next few days after I redirect the many redirects to it. Thanks.— TAnthony^Talk 16:05, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

I keep prodding characters from that series, I fear none are notable and we just need to redirect them to the list or the main article about the series (if they are even mentioned there... might not be true for the minor ones). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 15:58, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

Yeah obviously there are no editors at English Wikipedia really interested in researching the German sources to improve these articles. As a matter of fact, they appear to have all been created in the 2000s by Lucaslovespeyton, who has been inactive since January 2021. Many/most of the US soap character articles were just as poorly sourced and plot-heavy as these back in the day until some real editors came along and made significant improvements. Anyway, I'm working on a joint article for Oliver Sabel and Christian Mann, who are of note to the LGBTQ community, and next I'd like to do something that addresses other notable characters from the series. I just haven't figured out yet what that should be lol.— TAnthony^Talk 21:27, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

IMHO the best thing to do is to have a section about characters in the main article. It can also be split into a list of characters, but those have an iffy existence when GNG/NLIST is concerned sometimes. Sadly, I don't speak German so I can't help much with that show. Feel free to hit me whenever a Polish language topic comes up; recently I nominated some Polish TV characters on pl wiki and got trouted for it (at least some of them were improved a bit... pl wiki is pretty inclusionist when it comes to Polish fiction topics, no surprise really... but sometimes good sources can be found in native languages, that's very true). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:31, 5 March 2023 (UTC)