User talk:Sol505000

Questions of IPA

Hello Sol505000, thank you very much for fixing the IPA of players! If there are questions of IPA, can I ask you questions on your User Talk page? --YellowTurtle9 (talk) 07:20, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

https://dontasktoask.com/ Nardog (talk) 09:29, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

That depends on the language, but I don't see a problem with that. Sol505000 (talk) 23:00, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply. Asking help to you was asking help to other people in English Wikipedia first time, so I was nervous about selecting appropriate words in the User talk page. My apologies if my question had inappropriate words or sentences --YellowTurtle9 (talk) 14:53, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

No worries, all is good. Sol505000 (talk) 16:21, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply.

Is Ismaël Bennacer's IPA ['ismæl 'benaçer] or ['ismæl 'bennaçer]? As he speaks both Arabic and French, I don't know which IPA should be applied on his name. Videos of his interview says his name like ben-na-cer, but I don't know for sure... --YellowTurtle9 (talk) 04:45, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

⟨ç⟩ stands for the voiceless palatal fricative in IPA, not the voiceless alveolar fricative, which is written ⟨s⟩. The name needs an Arabic IPA transcription (of ʼIsmāʻīl bin Nāṣir) as the player represents Algeria. Based on Romanization of Arabic, that would be [ʔismaːʕiːl bin naːsˁir] - note that the IPA is not complete as it lacks stress. My guess would be [ʔismaːˈʕiːl bin ˈnaːsˁir] per [1], which says (on page 4) that the stress usually falls on the last heavy syllable (i.e. one containing a long vowel), but you have to confirm that with someone else. Bin is probably unstressed, just like German von or Dutch van.

Per Forvo, the French IPA (of Ismaël Bennacer) is [ismael benasɛʁ] (but French Wiktionary gives [ismaɛl] for the given name. I'd go with that, so [ismaɛl benasɛʁ].) In French transcriptions, there is no word-level stress (only non-phonemic phrasal stress) and so the stress mark is not used. Sol505000 (talk) 09:22, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

I see... As he speaks both Arabic and French fluently, I should write both IPAs for more accurate information. Thank you very much! --YellowTurtle9 (talk) 16:07, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

Doesn't nn indicate [ɛ]? Nardog (talk) 16:19, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

Then apparently I can't hear the difference between the two in French. The Forvo pronunciation really sounds to me like [ismael benasɛʁ], but it could be [ismaɛl bɛnasɛʁ], with three open E's. Sol505000 (talk) 19:00, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

Who knows. The contrasts between high- and low-mid vowels are lost in many contexts in many varieties so they might be such a speaker, and French orthography is full of exceptions. Nardog (talk) 05:58, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

Catalan and Spanish

I don't think your recent edits to Catalan and Spanish transcriptions were well justified. Spaces in transcriptions exist solely to signal relation to morphology and orthography. They don't signify syllable boundaries. We don't remove spaces or put underties in /C#V/ for French despite good evidence of resyllabification (enchainement), for instance. And are you sure y invariably reduce to a semivowel when next to a vowel? If not, we might as well transcribe it as [i] in the same vein as Help:IPA/Spanish#cite_note-14. Nardog (talk) 14:00, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Using ⟨j w⟩ is consistent with using ⟨β ð ɣ⟩ and with the note 14 itself. If la bomba is to be transcribed [la ˈβomba], then Santa Isabel is [ˈsantajsaˈβel] (=Santay Sabel). It features the same diphthong as hay [aj]. If we never use ⟨b d ɡ⟩ after vowels then ⟨i u⟩ should also not be used when unstressed and adjacent to a (different) vowel. Those two processes belong to the same speech style, to the best of my knowledge.

Writing [ˈsanta jsaˈβel] results in an unpronounceable consonant cluster (at least what non-natives perceive as such, I know that [j w] are not fully-fledged consonants in Spanish) that does not occur in syllable onset (which is what the transcription strongly suggests, especially to laymen). Because of this, one may be tempted to change the transcription to [ˈsanta isaˈβel], which is not a fluent pronunciation. Spanish phrases act like single words and most word boundaries are ignored.

Same with Catalan Coordinadora Reusenca Independent [- rəwˈsɛŋkəjndəpənˈden]. You can't have an onset [jnd] in Catalan. You could break this up into [- rəwˈsɛŋkəjn dəpənˈden], which ignores word boundaries - not a good solution either (not least because [dəpənˈden] is... the antonym of [indəpənˈden]). We can use the syllable break here ([- rəwˈsɛŋ(.)kəjn(.)dəpənˈden]), but that still doesn't show the word boundaries, which are nonexistent in fluent speech (at least in this case), just as in Spanish. Apart from a space, only an undertie would do that: [rəwˈsɛŋkə‿jndəpənˈden]. But following this logic, all postvocalic word-initial ⟨β ð ɣ⟩ would need to be preceded by an undertie.

You might be familiar with this lecture by Geoff Lindsey discussing the issue of spaces in IPA transcription. Sol505000 (talk) 20:39, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

The only exception to that is probably singing or poetry. Any particular verse may require [ˈsan.ta.i.sa.ˈβel] (with five syllables instead of four) to fit with the rhythm of the song/poem, just like an English song/poem might require serious to be [ˈsi.ɹi.əs] or [ˈsɪː.ɹi.əs], with three syllables instead of two. I would expect this to be true of both Spanish and Catalan (which tolerates unstressed hiatuses to a higher degree). But this is a non-argument here - Spanish aire can be [aˈiɾe] in the same circumstances, which would be highly abnormal in speech (AFAIK), where it is [ˈajɾe] instead. Sol505000 (talk) 23:07, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

I fail to see how [ˈsantajsaˈβel] is superior to [ˈsanta jsaˈβel] in terms of legibility. How about using ⟨‿⟩? And do you have a source for the hiatus resolution being mandatory? Nardog (talk) 02:48, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

I checked three JIPA articles (Castilian Spanish, Argentine Spanish and Mexico City Spanish) and ⟨j w⟩ (or ⟨i̯ u̯⟩, same thing) are almost invariably used in those contexts in transcriptions of The North Wind and the Sun. If we reintroduced spaces, it would be clear that they alternate with [i u]. The reason ⟨i u⟩ were used in our transcriptions in those contexts is that the offsets of diphthongs were also written with ⟨i u⟩ ([ai, oi, euˈɾopa]). Their main phonetic value has always been a semivowel (hence note 14 in the guide, which applies to separate words as well as full phrases). I guess you can view this as a type of lenition, assuming that [j w] are by definition "weaker" than [i u].

I'm not sure I like ⟨‿⟩, for the reasons stated above. Sol505000 (talk) 09:32, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

What reasons? You mean it would be clear that they alternate with [i u]? Well that sounds like a good thing (if by "alternate" you mean they're co-allophones of the same phonemes). I'm afraid I don't follow. (The point of bringing up note 14 FWIW was that since we transcribe [poˈeta] and not [ˈpo̯eta] or [ˈpweta], we could also use ⟨i u⟩ implicitly to mean [j w]. But Hualde 2005 says the syllabicity loss of the high vowels is much more common than that of the mid vowels, so I won't pursue this point further.) Nardog (talk) 13:36, 1 June 2023 (UTC)