User talk:Jclemens

I'm no longer an administrator, so if you're looking for someone to undelete something I deleted, you'd be better off asking at WP:REFUND

Position Essays may help you understand my point of view with regard to...

• Notability of Fictional Topics
• Articles for Deletion
• My RfA Standards

Good article reassessment for Gary Gygax

Gary Gygax has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Z1720 (talk) 00:22, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Better Off Dead edit

Hi there! I had reverted your edits re: "Arrested by You" because: (1) it was unsourced information and I am currently in the process of cleaning up that page. In fact, you can see I had flagged that section as needing more sources, as it's largely WP:OR at this point, so I think we should focus on finding refs and not adding new unsourced info; (2) as far as I can see, that cover does not meet notability requirements for cover songs anyway, as outlined in WP:NSONG. A song that limped to #70 in the UK and nowhere else would not seem to necessitate a mention, but I'm open to hearing arguments to the contrary. However, I do thank you for bringing the cover to my attention, because I had no knowledge of it existing before and I enjoyed hearing it. Anyway, I hope we can resolve this amicably. Cheers.—The Keymaster (talk) 07:48, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Also, if I'm not mistaken, using another article on WP as a source of sorts is considered WP:CIRCULAR. In fact I tried that myself many years ago, when I was a fledgling editor, and got piled on for it.— The Keymaster (talk) 07:59, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

So, the fact that a song is on an album is exactly the sort of evidence that doesn't generally need anything more than primary sourcing. Do we need someone commenting about it? No, because it's not an opinion, it's not controversial... it's just a fact, unless there's some sort of dispute. Facts don't need notability, per WP:NNC, which leads to the second issue.

As far as whether to include it or not... why not? You've posted a great argument why "Arrested by You" doesn't get its own article. We're agreed on that. What I haven't seen is any reason not to mention the fact in arguably the most relevant article. I went ahead and added it to Reputation (Dusty Springfield album) as well, but there's no particular reason not to have two-way pointers between the first recording and the one that charted. Cheers, Jclemens (talk) 02:05, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

So, basically, mentioning its existence in an article would fall under the same parameters as something like, say, WP:TRACKLISTING, which doesn't require a secondary source or explicit citation?

As for its notability, my initial feeling was that it might fall under something like WP:INDISCRIMINATE, but maybe not. The same kind of thing that has discouraged the inclusion of those ubiquitous "In popular culture" or "Cover songs" sections for albums/songs in recent years. Do I have that wrong? If so, maybe I reacted too hastily.

Thanks.— The Keymaster (talk) 06:28, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

I don't normally do a lot of music-specific work, only incidentally as it intersects with other topics (Sci-Fi media, mostly) that I do work in regularly, so I wouldn't be able to give a solid opinion on how it's done elsewhere. Again--elements of articles don't need to be notable, but that's such a common misunderstanding of how notability works. They just have to be otherwise appropriate and not UNDUE. Want to see if any talk page stalkers chime in on this one, or if no one does, seek a WP:3O? Jclemens (talk) 06:31, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Hmm. I could also pitch this to WT:ALBUMS and see what they think, but it can sometimes be difficult to get discussion going over there.— The Keymaster (talk) 06:41, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

That would be fine. I'm not married to my desired outcome, and am open to input from others as to how such things are most commonly handled. Jclemens (talk) 17:32, 29 August 2023 (UTC)