User talk:HandThatFeeds

Letting Wikipedia down

I’m sorry I don’t understand how you can deal with me like this when the comment was referring to people as loonies, amongst other unsubstantiated derogatory expressions. Can I ask how old you are? I’m 45. My comment was a mature adult responding to the nature of the inappropriate and unhelpful comment above. There is a whole contingent out there dropping these bullying tropes disrespecting others. Your response doesn’t seem to make any sense nor does it seem professional. What difference does it make when that comment was left. It’s still there. It’s still horribly rude and bullying based on total ignorance. There was no speculation on other editors state of mind. There was a statement about what certain behaviours are linked to. I’m completely shocked at your picking on my comment and leaving the one above. I don’t see what value you think you’re bringing here. You’re just trying to silence people and support bullies. It’s wrong. Mcnaugha (talk) 15:19, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) On Wikipedia, it's OK to criticize sources as part of a discussion about how best to improve the article or which potential sources qualify as reliable or unreliable based on our policies. This is especially important in the case of articles about WP:FRINGE subjects where evaluating the mainstream position vs the fringe position requires a fair amount of input from experienced editors. So criticizing sources, e.g. www.thunderbolts.info, Worlds In Collision, Chariots Of The Gods, etc., as part of a discussion is OK. But it's not OK to criticize the personality of other editors, e.g. calling them a bully who suffers from insecurity and phobia. That is a personal attack. - LuckyLouie (talk) 16:06, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

Wholly disagree. It is not ok to call people loonies or make those other derogatory comments. That isn't criticism. It's a personal attack. To say otherwise is to have a biased and unscientific agenda. In developed countries, we recognise this as suppression of free speech and we know where it leads us.

If that guy was an experienced editor, his comment does nothing to qualify him. That behaviour totally lacks credibility. If that's all someone has to say then they shouldn't say it at all and it shouldn't be on Wikipedia.

Again, at no point did I call anyone anything. I stated behaviour patterns and their likely cause. A grown-up would have seen that. I can only assume you guys are just kids on a power trip. Seen it all before. You eventually get banned by actual Wikipedia staff. Mcnaugha (talk) 16:33, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

For the record, I'm 47. And I'm going to be blunt: You responded to a year old post in order to attack the other person's mental state. There is nothing about that which is "mature," and frankly you need to step back and reconsider what you're fighting over.

I stated behaviour patterns and their likely cause.

Don't. You don't get to speculate on other people's mental health. Full stop.

The only one likely to get banned here is you. Stop speculating on other editor's motives and pay attention to the post dates so you don't dredge up old issues. Just because you took offense, it does not give you carte blanche to be insulting right back. Knock it off. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 16:50, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

I will say for the final time, I did not speculate on other people’s mental health and you saying that I am is slander.

You’ve just admitted that the original comment was offensive and yet you’re doing nothing about it. I could respect you if you were dealing with it but clearly you support that kind of behaviour which invalidates everything else you say. You’re just attacking me. You are behaving like another bully. A self-righteous, fascist bully. Mcnaugha (talk) 17:07, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

Okay, that's crossing a line. Warned for NPA for that self-righteous, fascist bully attack. Do not post on my Talk page again. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 17:20, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

And just for the record: your comment It’s bullying, which in turn is a sign of insecurity and phobia is absolutely speculating on someone's mental health. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 17:23, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

If the shoe fits, wear it. Display name 99 (talk) 19:43, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

Dropping onto my talk page just to cast aspersions is a very bad idea. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 19:46, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

Talk page message

Hi,

I wanted to let you know I appreciated the message you left on my talk page. You seem to be coming at it from a sense of impartiality, which I appreciate. I totally understand why most administrators are sick and tired of music genre arguments, especially something seemingly so trivial as whether this or that is a genre or subgenre of this or that genre or subgenre. And I think your suggestion of taking a short break is wise. But I would contend that however tired and uninterested administrators have grown of such arguments, Wikipedia's commitment to a neutral point of view requires administrators to actually consider the strength of the opposing arguments rather than automatically coming down on the side of the defender of the status quo.

In my initial talk page post, it is true, I did not specifically refer to any sources, but rather the larger body of source material on synth-pop as a whole. I have, in fact, read a great deal about the genre, including passages from the sources cited on Wikipedia, and later on in the talk page discussion you will see that I cite some of these as well as other references. While the sources don't repeat word for word the phrase "synth-pop is a genre/subgenre of pop/popular music", that's because they're more interested in an actual discussion of the music and its history than offering simple definitions. If they are read with any context at all, or a basic understanding of what popular/pop music is, it is utterly obvious that the authors consider synth-pop as belonging to the pop category. All that UserFlash reveals by denying these sources is that he has not actually read or understood them himself. One of the sources, though, does in fact have as a "working definition" of synth-pop "popular songs with prominent synthesizer instrumentation", so even by his own standards UserFlash's position is senseless. His insistence on reverting anything that might contradict his beloved AllMusic source is asinine and, along with his refusal to respond on the talk page without continuing to parrot this one source, are the actual cause of the edit war. And, of course, there is his refusal to even consider compromise or allow past any sources besides AllMusic; if you look at the edit history of the page, you'll see that I made a number of edits attempting, in one way or another, to complicate the simple "subgenre of new wave" claim via compromise, such as describing it as a "subgenre of new wave music or genre of electronic dance music/pop music/popular music". But nothing would do besides his own way.

And the reason, finally, why any of this matters is that only relying on the AllMusic source for the claim that "synth-pop is a subgenre of new wave music" is misleading, ahistorical, and slanted. Wikipedia should not be pushing a certain version of contested history, when a great number of sources on synth-pop make no reference of new wave music whatsoever; none of the sources, however, would disagree on synth-pop's status (like that of all rock and pop genres) as a form of popular music. Currently, the English page discounts all other perspectives besides a certain American one, and erases the actual history behind the genre in favor of a disputed narrative. Considering Wikipedia's popularity and mass usage around the world, this matters as a point of the historical record. As I already noted on the talk page, the French and German pages make no such claim about synth-pop's relation to new wave, and in England itself (where most synth-pop was produced), as past talk page discussions reveal, the genre was considered quite separate from the New Wave. Thus, I think it's crucial that an administrator step in and do the right thing, however loath one may be to involve oneself in genre wars, for the sake of Wikipedia's reliability as an encyclopedia and the preservation of the historical record.

Thanks, Janglyguitars (talk) 21:03, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

@Janglyguitars: So, I'm going to make a couple points from what you said, and explain why they fall afoul of Wikipedia policy & norms.

neutral point of view requires administrators to actually consider the strength of the opposing arguments

No, NPOV is meant for weighing the sources to present the most accurate summary of what those sources say.

I have, in fact, read a great deal about the genre

This is precisely why we don't take such arguments into account. It's an argument from authority, or in Wikipedia terms, original research. We can't just take an editor's word for something, we need cites to consider the argument valid.

All that UserFlash reveals by denying these sources is that he has not actually read or understood them himself.

And that's a valid debate on the talk page, but be careful it doesn't devolve into personal attacks, or you'll wind back up in the same situation you were just in.

the French and German pages make no such claim about synth-pop's relation to new wave

We do not consider what other language Wikis do, because they have different rules than the English wiki. Some of them are more strict on sourcing, some are very lax. We just do our own thing.

I think it's crucial that an administrator step in and do the right thing

Admins do not use their tools to settle a content dispute. You'll have to provide sourcing and convince people to make the changes. If you find the debate is at a stalemate, there are dispute resolution systems such as third opinion requests or submitting a request for comment.

I get that you're convinced you're right. But you're going to have to accept you can't just force your changes into an article. You're going to need to provide sourcing & a convincing argument that changes the consensus around the topic. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 14:13, 26 May 2023 (UTC)