User talk:Francis Tyers/Archive4

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Leprechaun, LeperKhanz[edit]

I was only trying to help avoid confusion, as this comes up A WHOLE LOT in my line of work. You've reverted me, and your an admin, so I'll not revert it back, but perhaps you should consider it. Is this even the right place to mention it? If not just delete this and send me an email. rhY

Can you take a closer look at Armenian Genocide[edit]

Is it only my impression, or the article is much less structured than it was before Karabekir attempt to structure it? Also, can you check typos, he has added many in his changes. I haven't checked all the changes, but maybe it would be a good idea to add the totallydisputed tag until things settle down. Fad (ix) 22:50, 2 March 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

how to avoid revert wars?[edit]

Hello again Francis. you asked me to contact you after your return from holiday regarding UK Islamist demonstration outside Danish Embassy. Things are going from bad to worse. A revert war is developing with Irishpunktom despite my best efforts to avoid it. He was initially asking vague questions about the content which I replied to in great detail. He's removing chunks of text that he doesn't like but when I question him about it I get no reply. I try to justify the decisions I make but he doesn't reciprocate. I have reverted his deletions but I revert only the areas discussed. I am trying to make reasonable concessions but at the moment there is no discussion. He's just unilaterally reverting. I've also left a message on his own talk page asking him discuss the content on the article talk page. How can I avoid this revert war, yet ensure that the article is thorough & honest? Veej 01:32, 3 March 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

independence intifada talk deletions[edit]

no, that was definitely not intentional. thanks for reverting it, and stick around that page if you can. i have a feeling my peace plan won't work. Arre 11:57, 3 March 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Hi Dear, Francis. Can I ask you please add ghis related reference to the article Sheikh Mahmud Barzinji. I had already added them but an Iranian several times removed them, and I'm afread of 3RR. Thanks. Diyako Talk + 14:29, 3 March 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Please check these references, they do not contain any information about the particular individual, adding unrelevant links even after discussion has taken place can be considered as vandalism, thank you --Kash 14:30, 3 March 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Since you are defending this article, could you tell me why it is proposed the way it is, better in English than the original Kurdi language? this is suspicious to me..we have many Kurdi wikipedians, Thank you --Kash 14:31, 3 March 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Will 3RR apply here?[edit]

Hey Francis. Sorry to be a pest. I just need clarification on Wikipedia policy. An anonymous editor ( has taken to changing;

essentially meaning they'll have to be careful when expressing support for suicide bombers in Israel or terrorists in Kashmir


essentially meaning they'll have to be careful when expressing support for Zionist terrorist in Palestine or Indian terrorists in Kashmir

The problem is that the original sentence above was a referenced quote from Sunny Hundal[1], so the bizarre changes seem like vandalism to me. Will I be blocked if I continue to revert this? Veej 14:46, 3 March 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Dear FrancisTyers, yes I mentioned them on the talk page and I think I got my answer.

These are suspicious since the user claiming to have started the article, Dyko I think he is called, on his User page he has put that he is a native Kurd speaker, so it should be easier for him to contribute there.

These are important to take note of, because of several Anti-Iranian attacks that have been reported here, which have led to not only this mediation here, but only the other night Diko decided to revolt against the Iranian peoples article too.

Now, knowing that this user has such good knowledge of Kurdish history, as well as Kurdi being his mother tongue, I wonder why he is spending so much time on Iranian articles, trying to create disputes..

So I invite you to as a trusted wikipedian that I think you are, to comment on Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-03-02 Persian people, I think you have a special interest in Kurds, but I want to show that Kurdish wikipedians are doing these as result of political agenda, I will be civil enough not accuse them of being nationalists, unlike them who have called every Iranian wikipedian nationalists!

Any comment you make on this mediation will be greatly appreciated. Thanks! --Kash 14:50, 3 March 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

your sensible suggestions[edit]

I just wanted to thank you for your input at Talk:UK_Islamist_demonstration_outside_Danish_Embassy. In case your wondering, I've not ignored your suggestions, I'm just waiting for Irishpunktom to add something. I've rattled on alot on that page & he must be sick of the seeing my posts. It's better if he gets a chance to say something before I wade in with my size 12s. Veej 17:13, 4 March 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • Yeah, I asked him two days ago. I don't want to keep pestering him though because he's just gonna get pissed off. Veej 17:24, 4 March 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Growing tired of User:Diyako and User:Heja helweda[edit]

I am growing tired of this kind of edit behaviour and am considering arbitration. What do you think? I do not believe we (you/me/others) need to clean up this kind of mess as wikipedians should have the learning curve to at least attempt writing neutraly... --Cool CatTalk|@ 04:42, 6 March 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The edits are annoying because of the copyvio element. But I'm not sure how many times they've done this in the past, I suppose if you could show a pattern of this kind of editing you'd have a case for an RfAr and I'd probably be neutral. It's kind of annoying possibly having your work removed because some guys not bothered to check copyright status! - FrancisTyers 09:22, 6 March 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Yes, many of the stubs they create are copy paste from other sites. These are bio stubs of supposivley notable people often whose only notability is being kurdish or so the site claims.
My other concern is pov editing. Portraying UK air force evil and comparing it to saddam husein is bad taste and is certainly not what we are trying to do here on wikipedia.
I am annoyed by their behaviour as an observer, you are dealing with it first hand... I admire your hard work to say the least.
I'll copyscape their contributions but since they are mostly bare stubs this will be tedious work... Least I can do for you. :) --Cool CatTalk|@ 09:59, 6 March 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
take a look at 4 entries on Wikipedia:Copyright problems/2006 March 6, that was w/o effort. will look for more in a few days. --Cool CatTalk|@ 10:48, 6 March 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Rather than an RfAr, it might be worth doing an RfC first - I'd certainly come in on your side then. Have you tried to talk to them about this (the copyvio issue) already? - FrancisTyers 14:50, 6 March 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I personaly believe rfcs are pointless, but because yu ask I will do that. I have not talked to mohamed guy about copyright vilations because he doesnt know english, my communcations with him ended rather insultive (on his part). --Cool CatTalk|@ 15:54, 6 March 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • User:Heja helweda (perhaps in an act of revenge) found out about copyright violations on articles related to turkey. On one occasion declared stuff from cia world factbook a cvio case. This was just a heads up. :) --Cool CatTalk|@ 19:50, 7 March 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image copyright problem with Image:EURASEC-Flag.png[edit]

Thanks for uploading Image:EURASEC-Flag.png. However, the image may soon be deleted unless we can determine the copyright holder and copyright status. The Wikimedia Foundation is very careful about the images included in Wikipedia because of copyright law (see Wikipedia's Copyright policy).

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This is an automated notice by OrphanBot. If you have questions about copyright tagging of images, post on Wikipedia talk:Image copyright tags or User talk:Carnildo/images. 07:09, 6 March 2006 (UTC)


I would hope you'd steer clear of the deeceevoice matter. She has made an incivil remark, which is in violation of her probation. The goal of the probation is to prevent such behavior. As you've read the discussion involved, I don't think you doubt her intention was a personal attack. You are also neither attacker or attackee in this case.

The RfAr is finished. The evidence was shown by all parties and the arbitration committee ruled that deeceevoice has broken many rules many times. Please support wiki process and rulings, and, rather than backing deecee up, help her to change her behavior, and when she violates probation, let enforcement go smoothly.

Justforasecond 15:37, 6 March 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

My RfA[edit]

Hey, buddy. I'd appreciate a support vote in my RfA, if you feel so inclined. Thanks! --AaronS 22:24, 8 March 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

A while back, you put a fact tag on this article. I've taken a stab at rewriting the part on language use (or lack thereof) to be factual and NPOV. Would love to get your reactions with the hope of agreeing to remove the tag. Martinp 04:18, 10 March 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]


I get the impression you've had bad experience with vegans in the past. It seems that most of the ones you've known are middle-class liberal yuppie pretentious bastards, but it really isn't true for all of us. Living where I do, almost everyone who's vegan (though not vegetarians) are able to do so because of white privelage; they have the time to care about stuff, their parents have the money to buy tofu and such (which for some reason seems to be the only thing a lot of them think they can eat; presumably because so many "normal" meals contain meat over here), etc. That said, I also know a lot of dirt-poor vegans, who are or aren't white, are working-class, and just can't stand the conditions that animals are kept in over here, or that anyone should die to support their life.

A lot of the negative energy that american vegans are charged with comes from seeing everyone around them eat hamburgers and steaks all the time; they don't know that some people who eat meat only do so once in a while; it's just not something they encounter. No, ecologically, it's not that bad to eat a little meat once in awhile; it's even more natural to humans than eating just plants (probably). But by and large, that's not what we're talking about when we get so angry at people who eat meat.

I'm a pretentious bastard who wants to solve all the world's problems, if you haven't noticed by now (I'm not sure where I was going with this either). I guess I just want to see if I can help you to understand that not all vegans are ill-informed liberal yuppies.

I see radical beams of light shining through in you, and I like it a lot. If you wanna talk sometime, about this or anything else, (I've lost your ICQ number), hit me up: 242459836 Canaen 06:50, 10 March 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Danish Embassy demo[edit]

hey franc. how long is resonable to wait for a response about the proposed solution or shall we just assume that it's ok to go ahead & implement the changes? Veej 11:22, 10 March 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Machine translation[edit]

I really don't know, I'm not familiar with it. Bomac 13:47, 11 March 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

TS edit[edit]

Hi Francis! Thanks for catching and reverting the insertion on Tourette syndrome. I've been really tied up with some family stuff, and haven't been able to work on the article, and was glad to see you were still keeping an eye on it. I hope to get to work on it again in a few weeks. Thanks again ! Sandy 13:15, 12 March 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Soviet Antarctic Expeditions[edit]

I think, we can greet each other for the good work on related articles :) Probably more stuff on the topic will be added in the future, but the basis seems to be done successfully. Good work! Cmapm 01:18, 13 March 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Thank you for your support of the Article Improvement Drive.
This week Great Leap Forward and Decline of the Roman Empire were selected to be improved to featured article status.
Hope you can help…

-Litefantastic 17:41, 13 March 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]


I hope you didn't. He's currently blocked 75 hours, the protection was more preventive than anything. During previous blocks Gibby has been known to use his talk page for personal attacks - banned under his ArbCom decision - as such it'd be better for both parties to have the page protected. NSLE (T+C) at 04:34 UTC (2006-03-14)

waiting 4 days[edit]

hey franc. we've waited 4 days. i don't think he's really interested in the issues. shall we just go ahead & remove that tag? Veej 18:37, 14 March 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

List of Countries in Yugo/Zastava page[edit]

In all honesty, I believe the best option is to follow the United Nations and stick to Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. This whole issue is collateral to the nature of the article and I would not like to see it hijacked by anyone. Regards, Asterion 23:39, 14 March 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Sorry but I cannot see the point of starting an edit war. I stick to the internationally accepted view (UN, European Union and even NATO). Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia is a NPOV term, while Macedonia or Rep. of Macedonia is not. Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia, not an "anti-nationalist platform". The article is about cars, nothing else. There is no need to add wood to the fire. I respect your opinion but cannot agree with it. Regards, Asterion 00:12, 15 March 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hi Francis, the name Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia was used by this country in its applications to join the UN and for the EU admission talks. It is not Greek namecalling. Besides, I am simply interested in writing about the car. I just would not like to see the article turned into an edit battlefield by third parties, with no real interest in the subject of the article. I will stay aside any further discussions on the country name. It is up to you all to agree on the terminology. Regards, Asterion 22:41, 15 March 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hi Frank, I thought I'd better contact you on your web page. I found your remark "The (A) symbol is used in many ways, association with the (A) symbol does not necessarily mean anarchist." very interesting. If you check the page you will see why. If you are aware of any other uses of '@' symbol, then I feel you should add them as tehy would broaden the depth of the entry.Harrypotter 18:30, 15 March 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Opposition to trade unions[edit]

Hi Francis. Good idea! Cheers.--Bookandcoffee 17:32, 19 March 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Danish Embassy demo[edit]

Hi Franc. sorry to pester you with this again. could you keep an eye on Tom & me at Talk:UK_Islamist_demonstration_outside_the_Danish_Embassy#Problem_with_Islamist_word. he seems very attached to those pov tags. cheers. Veej 03:25, 20 March 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Gun politics template[edit]

Hi. Noticed you added Brazil to the template. Are you planning on writing an article on Gun politics in Brazil? If not, I was thinking of removing the deadlink in the Template:gun politics with the Brazilian flag, until such time as one is written. Thanks. Yaf 15:39, 21 March 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hey Fran! Just to let you know that I successfuly linked from Stjepan Filipović to serbianization article, so your work on izations was not in vain. And the z vs s thing was just to provoke you into putting the union jack on your user page. :) --dcabrilo 07:32, 22 March 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Diyako Talk + 10:40, 22 March 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

As you requested I have filed an RfC and not an RfAr. --Cool CatTalk|@ 13:34, 22 March 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hey man, do you want me to join as have tried to resolve this dispute? Because if you lump together all four I'm not sure If I can do that, I can only provide an outside view that agrees with most of it - I really have no experience of dealing with Aucaman. I'm not really sure of the benefit of lumping Muhamed in with Diyako and Heja either... I mean his case is clearcut. He really needs to be permbanned and thats that. Let me know how you think it is best to proceed. - FrancisTyers 15:47, 22 March 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Hey there
  • I do not know much about Aucaman. I am primarily bugged by his creation of articles such as Turkish Kurdistan. I also observed his less than admirable tone as I watch practicaly every article related to kurds. Maybe an RFC against him isn't necesary since there is an RfAr... but too late for that now.
  • Muhamed is also a clear cut. Someone who can't understand english should not be making edits here aside from interwiki links.
    • Tagging random articles (such as a restoruant in Berlin, Geramany) with a contraversial category Kurdistan or voting on afds etc without undertsanding the rationale (due to language barrier).
    • A dispute resolution would require heavy use of translation as user does not know english (or any language at a native level).
    • I frankly think he should stick to german wikipedia, just like how I don't contribute to russian wikipedia. So I don't think a dispute resolution for him is possible.
  • The other two parties (Diyako and Heja) frequently make contraversial/biased edits. They are no longer newbies and they do not show any evidence of a learning curve or improvement. You had to recently clean up thier mess on Kingdom of Kurdistan for example as comparing the british gov and saddam is bad taste (in my view at least).
I did not file the RfC to get people perm banned though. I hope to gather comunity support against their behaviour which may or may not result with bans. I am not sure what can you do to resolve the dispute. Diyako's recent behaviour on the Newruz (or whatever the holiday is called) article is quite problematic. I provided for some diffs to that end on the rfc page.
For me all 4 people cause simmilar problems on articles related to Kurds.
--Cool CatTalk|@ 16:30, 22 March 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
You may want to endorse it before the 48 hours expires. After all you asked me to file the rfc rther than jumping to arbitration. --Cool CatTalk|@ 03:19, 24 March 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I am growing tired of anything getting tagged by Kurdistan. [2] We definately need strict guidelines explaining what can be in it and what cant be.

Also, in your view, is the sub category system under kurdistan cat approporate? Can we really consider kurdish people and kurdish culture a sub cat of kurdistan or shouldn't kurdistan be a subcat?

--Cool CatTalk|@ 03:33, 24 March 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Please refrain from editing my words on Armenian Genocide Talk page[edit]

"Nitpickers" - how is this a personal attack? It is clear that you are going overboard in editing me for no real reason - except perhaps personal. Meanwhile this anonymous posting idiot who has contributed nothing of substance but personal attacks against me - calling me a nazi and calling me "thor" - thor is not my name BTW - is allowed to post freely. I have about had it. If you hadn't realized already I have a great deal of knowlwedge and perspective on this subject. I have made a proposal in the archives for a substansial re-write of this peice but there was no interest so I choose to contribute by educating and correcting disinformation. I feel the role is valuable - but obviously you do not. Well I really don't much care what you think anyway as you obvioulsy have no real great understanding of the relevant issues at stake. So I would appreciate it if you stay away from my posts. --THOTH 15:29, 24 March 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Page move[edit]

Hi Fancis. Sometime when you have a spare moment, would you look at Federation of Trade Unions, and move it to Hong Kong Federation of Trade Unions? Thanks. Chris.--Bookandcoffee 22:21, 25 March 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Khojaly massacre[edit]

Hi Francis, please have a look at Khojaly massacre talk page. The same anonymous troll launched another personal attack with obvious purposes to disrupt the work on the article. It’s about the time we should do something to stop this. Grandmaster 12:41, 31 March 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hi Francis, thanks for your contributions to Khojaly massacre article. May I ask you to stay involved in that article, since we need a neutral third party view? I’ve been recently having a problem with some Armenian editors, who were trying to add a disputed tag without providing any valid reason. As you know, the purpose of the tag is to improve the article, but some apparently try to use it to discredit the articles they are not happy with. Also, could you please have a look at Armenian-Tatar massacres? In my opinion this one has POV issues, as recent edits were based on the article from, the website that belongs to Armenian separatists in Nagorno-Karabakh. I actually think that this article could be merged with one of the articles about Azerbaijani-Armenian relations. Thanks in advance. Regards, Grandmaster 12:27, 2 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Hi Francis. Sorry for disturbing, but I have a dispute with Fadix and other editors regarding the names that should be included in the lead sentence of an article. It all started with Nakhichevan, the lead line of which has the name of region in Azeri, Armenian, Turkish and Russian. According to the same principle we should have the name of Yerevan and other Armenian territories written in Azeri and Turkish as well, since those territories were part of Erivan khanate and Ottoman Empire for centuries. It was suggested as an alternative to move the names in other languages down to history section, but still the issue remains unresolved, because Armenian editors don’t want to have the names in other languages included for their territory, while they want to have Armenian names included for Azerbaijan and Turkey. You have experience in mediating this sort of disputes, maybe you could contribute to this matter as well? Also, I was suggested to start an RfC on this issue by other admins, but have no experience whatsoever in doing this. Maybe you can help me out with it, maybe just by advice? Please see Talk:Kars, Talk:Nakhichevan [3] and my talk [4] for previous discussions. Thanks in advance. Grandmaster 12:53, 14 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Linguistic Balkanization[edit]

I'll see what I can do. One of the editors seems to be from the University of Amsterdam so that shouldn't be a problem :) jacoplane 15:02, 2 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Vympel R-33[edit]

Thank you for article cleanup support! The first attempt was done on Vympel R-33 article. --jno 13:15, 5 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

No problem! :) I've made a few more small changes. If you have time, produce stub articles for the redlinks - FrancisTyers 13:23, 5 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I've attempted to "cleanup" the GRAU page... The result is the header reorganized a bit. What made me to write this article is "common misconception" with "GRAU indicies" (like 1A2B) which are always referred to as "industry designation" here in wikipedia. BTW, Noam Chomsky - rulezz! :-) --jno 13:42, 5 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Talk: republic of Macedonia[edit]

Don't play blasé with me. It's you who started it. Ever heard of WP:NPA ?--Avg 21:41, 6 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

On the other hand, I, seem to like you, cause you're a straightforward, can't-keep-it-shut person. I don't agree with your comments on Avg and on Hectorian, but I agree with the feelings behind them. Maybe we should keep in touch after this f***ing parody is over. We two could be either loving friends, or worst of enemies. There's no middle solution...  NikoSilver  (T) @ (C) 22:58, 6 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

No problem!i am not offended...i kinda read your comment in a rush and got angry. i also do not have much trust in politicians and politics in general(and i have many reasons for that). nice to know that u have been here in Greece and moreover in Thessaloniki...hope u liked it:). but since u have greek friends, i guess u have understood how greeks see this issue. i can assure u that if the name 'Macedonia' was used by our northern neighbours as a geographical term only, very few people would object here. but as i said, it's more than that... Really, have u asked your greek friends if they believe that Alexander the Great was not greek? i doubt if they answered/will answer 'yes he was not'(and also doubt if u believe that either). i guess u are from the UK, right? --Hectorian 22:56, 6 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Yeah...that's exactly what i have been saying all the time: there are towns and cities named 'Macedonia' in Brazil and the USA and we have not even a sigle problem with that! but in this case, it's not just the name...And the people in FYROM really believe this crap (cause of politicians, media, school programmes,etc)! if u had replied that Alexander was not Greek, now u would be reporting me for a personal attack (or u would block me yourself, since u are an administrator):p (just kidding...). See u around:) --Hectorian 23:16, 6 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Still spying on your talk. Maybe you should see this userpage to understand what we have to deal with, around here...  NikoSilver  (T) @ (C) 23:51, 6 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Nah, he means this userpage: [5] Miskin 17:43, 7 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Right. Much better than before... Maybe you should check this version then...  NikoSilver  (T) @ (C) 09:03, 7 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Oh, yes they are! Also, here's a better one, I think. Check also this comment...  NikoSilver  (T) @ (C) 10:18, 7 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
He he, I consider this comment really funny. Do I have a sick sense of humor, or what?  NikoSilver  (T) @ (C) 12:34, 7 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I stand amazed.  NikoSilver  (T) @ (C) 10:39, 8 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hey! The new episode is on air!!  NikoSilver  (T) @ (C) 22:15, 10 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

So how do you guys like my user page now, any comments? :-D Macedonia 03:20, 22 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

About as historically accurate as any religious text. - FrancisTyers 00:59, 23 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
It's hilariously nationalistic. Good job! FunkyFly 23:17, 22 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Naţionalişti greci[edit]

Da, aşa este. M-am mai certat cu ei la articolul Aromanians şi e foarte greu. Totuşi, ce fac este necinstit cu privire la Republica Macedonia. Mulţumesc, Flag of Europe.svgFlag of Romania.svg Ronline 13:45, 8 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

You're welcome ;-) FoxyNet 16:53, 8 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Francis I want to apologise for the comment I made here[6]. As you can see, I have already erased it. It is 100% due to my poor understanding of the romanian language and I rushed into conclusions. I'll try to dip my fingers in my mind before typing from now on! --Avg 17:39, 8 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Thank you for all the hard work you do on improving controversial articles. Just wanted to let you know that it's appreciated. --Khoikhoi 02:35, 10 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hey, no problem. ;) The sort of work that you and I do is a lot more stressful than someone who edits math-related articles, for example. --Khoikhoi 18:43, 9 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

ContiE has impersonated me on other wikis[edit]

Hi, I'm in a potentially awkward position with an Administrator. I have read the Wiki pages on dispute resolution but I'm still not sure how to proceed.

The Admin ContiE has a personal grudge against me for reasons I do not fully understand. He has been this way since I began frequenting wikipedia.

I have done work improving the furvert article. He has basically gone on a crusade against any edit I make. He controls every furry category article and several others ruthlessly. He is an iron fist and bans anyone he edit wars with. I had uploaded pictures and he deleted them with no talking. He seems to believe I am every person he has had an edit war against. He is always using personal attacks, calling me troll without reason. I uploaded them again and he voted them for deleted, but to his surprise the person who runs the images, thank you Nv8200p, found they were acceptable once I tagged them properly. Just recently he removed both the images without himself discussing it in the talk page (unless he was the same person who discussed only one) with the edit here [7] Then ContiE assumed bad faith, added his constant insult of troll in the talk page. It appears on a completed different wiki, a comedy one in all things, somebody else stole my username and I believe this was Conti himself and uploaded them. ContiE showed it as his reason. While vandalism like his, I would revert and mention it, he would ban me permanently if I undid his edit. That is why I am asking admins for help. He holds a couple of accounts on wikipedia and I think they are administrators so I have to be careful who I tell about this. Arights 07:35, 10 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]


How are you? I’m the user that was formerly known as Bitola. I decided to make some changes (changes are always welcomed from time to time) and I created a new user account. I was pretty much involved in the Macedonian articles heated area for several months and these days I will take some rest from all that bickering. In the same time, I would like to thank you for your engagement in some of the articles related to Macedonia (probably people from outside can see things more neutrally than we that live here). MatriX 17:07, 11 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

My university[edit]

Sorry, but theres no MT programme here. However, some collegues of mine are developing OCR software for Glagolica, if you find that interesting i can give you their addresses... --Misos 18:04, 11 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

There are two proper IT universities in Macedonia - Institute of Informatics and Electrotechnical Faculty. You can try mailing them, but I dont think there are such programmes. Anyway, I'll ask in my university, I'll tell you about it tommorow. I'm looking for a MSc (after-graduate) course somewhere in Europe too, possibly where they give scholarships :) If you have any info, please send them to me... Thanks --Misos 18:20, 11 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Sorry for intruding, I saw your discussion and I just wanted to say that there are another studies of computer science at the Bitola University (III years studies for now), you can check their web site here:[8] (unfortunately, most pages are under construction). MatriX 19:23, 11 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
No problem,I will talk with some students there (I know a few of them) and I will tell you if I have something about MT.MatriX 19:38, 11 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Islamophobia protection?[edit]

I told User:Raphael1 that I would ping you on the continued protection of Islamophobia from his post on WP:RFPP. Do you think that the conditions that caused the protection have changed? --Syrthiss 13:21, 14 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Having fun down there? :)[edit]

"18:34 Macedonian language (diff; hist) . . FrancisTyers (Talk | contribs) (should be in de,ogrqphics sectino zhen ze get a better map)" - You are so using azerty :) --dcabrilo 04:54, 15 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Citation needed tag[edit]

Excuse me, were you the one who put "citation needed tags" on the Macedonian language page, in "Bulgarian only has the basic (unspecified) form, although three definite article forms also exist in certain Bulgarian dialects, notably the vernaculars of Tran and parts of the Rhodopes [citation needed]." and related stuff? I guess I should have checked it on the History page, but it would have taken a lot of time. -- 15:09, 15 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

If you are referring to this, I guess it was a desperate comment of user "Macedonia" addressed to the anon that reverted his map. Also, it'd be silly to accuse you for sockpuppetry seeing your vote in the poll (for which it is I that should be curious)... NikoSilver  (T) @ (C) 18:36, 15 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Ha! I saw the AZERTY thing in your talk above after I had responded. Anyway, I guess that being accused for anything by him sounds like a compliment! Please indulge yourself in pushing the Greek nationalistic agenda further, you brainless hotheaded anonymous crypto-nationalistic trollish sockpuppet! And since I mentioned the poll, feel free to go for hardcore version #4 too!  NikoSilver  (T) @ (C) 00:18, 16 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Your right about the progressivism template. We are presently working on it, and if you could bring specific articles to globalise this let me know, to add them in. Thanks. --Northmeister 18:14, 16 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]


I've followed your recent editing behaviour and noticed that you've adapted a romantic nationalist pattern which involves supporting what is in your opinion a poor, opressed Balkan people, and side against Greek claims. I wouldn't waste my time to debate on your decisions, frankly it's your right to give your support to anyone you want and I couldn't care less. What is not your right however, is to make statements of this type: [9]. The term nationalism is indeed a strong one, and this can be easily regarded as a personal attack of an ethnic content (see [[10]]). Of course, as you are probably already aware of, it's not the first time you deliver such ethnic insults. It seems like a habit to you, and you somehow think that the rules do not apply because you're an administrator. Well you're wrong. Despite your political beliefs, you don't have the right to make such sarcastic and degrading comments against an editor who is in your mind he's labeled under a certain ethnic or cultural background. I hope this is the last time I catch you doing this. Miskin 17:43, 17 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

From the top of the page: To be unpopular with both sides at the same time is probably the best pointer to the fact that one is performing one's duties correctly and with impartiality. - FrancisTyers 17:57, 17 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Check: Macedonia Greece vs Macedonia North of Greece

Well? Who's wasting bytes and bandwidth now?  NikoSilver  (T) @ (C) 10:13, 18 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Duh? Have I lost so many braincells, or your arguement was indeed not compelling enough? Maybe I should become a member of the Rainbow party to clear my head!  NikoSilver  (T) @ (C) 10:20, 18 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I slightly vandalised your userpage, coz I couldn't see how it was vandalised the first two times. It seems that I still can't. Maybe you should reconsider use of superscript, or add & n b s p ; between the links...  NikoSilver  (T) @ (C) 11:33, 18 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Will you stop stuffing WP:BEANS in your nose?  NikoSilver  (T) @ (C) 12:01, 18 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hello Francis. I've been accused of being an Islamist just because of that article!!!!!! I've never seen an article whose references are all of a single site! Indeed, the site belongs to the subject of the article. Honestly, it is a vanity article for the website and its owner! I don't care about any Afd as the subject deserves an entry but certainly i am for a Wikipedia:Peer review or an arbitration. Cheers. -- Szvest 18:20, 18 April 2006 (UTC) Wiki me up™Reply[reply]

African cool or whatever the article is called now[edit]

FYI I'm moving your AfD to DRv ASAP. Or something. This one is hot enough that I think that the smaller venue would be a better choice. - brenneman{L} 01:48, 19 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]


im wiki-stressed enough already; weaving isn't even put on my watchlist. hows life?--Urthogie 21:55, 19 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Would you please stop moving my posts from the Armenian Genocide talk page[edit]

What right do you have to unilaterally determine that my comments are unfit for the talk page? Meanwhile you allow numerous anti-Armenian rants go without any editing or such. I am very tired of this. I will not participate in this contrived "Arguments page". I am posting only in direct relevance to the article. You have no idea the amount of knowledge I have concerning this subject and it is apparent to me you have nothing but bias against Armenians. If you tried to encourage Holocaust deniers to sabotage the Holocaust article I would assume you would no longer be participating in Wiki. Frankly if you continue to single me out and harass me in this way I will do what I can to have you removed as well - at least from the Armenian Genocide article or anything that I might be involved in. Back off! I am quite tired of your biased interferrence already.--THOTH 05:11, 20 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Do you really think I've harassed editors, or was it just rhetoric? If you're serious, please show me where- that's a real problem. I try to be polite and helpful, but I realize that my judgment is not always correct. Friday (talk) 16:09, 20 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Wikiquote definition of capitalism link at Capitalism[edit]

Is it right that RJII and ultramarine should have that.. self-referentiating at the start of the article like that? They just go over to wikiquoe and misquote. I won't spend time pover there just to rectify what they and others do. -- max rspct leave a message 21:03, 22 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Changes in topics Kurdistan, PKK[edit]


(assuming your position and actions in wikipedia represent the foundation's stance) i am surprised that PKK is not defined as a terrorist organisation by wikipedia, it is defined so by the european union and the united states (besides, iran, iraq, syria and turkey, however i don't expect wikipedia to accept these countries as credible sources due to their position in the issue). I am also suprised that previous evidence on the fact that US and the EU had defined PKK as a terrorist organization has been removed from these articles. Is there a political standing of wikipedia that i do not know about, or does wikipedia's liberal position prohibit its authors to make definitions such as "terrorist"? if neither of these are true, then is this removal your personal choice of action? if that is so, then you are a liability to wikipedia's credibility.

with regards, 21:07, 22 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

hello again,

i did not miss the presence of "other states'" definition of pkk, my problem is with how wikipedia defines pkk, not the presence of other points of view in the page.

I would like to express my point with an example: assume person x has killed someone, and is in a federal jail in nevada. and also assume that i am that person x's friend. if i have to give an official statement about him to a factual information source, i can open a web page about him, defining how good he is, how nice he is, how good the brownies he cooks taste, but at some point if i ever have to define his occupation, i have only one option: i have to say that he is a murderer, and is serving time in the jail. (since he has been convicted already) now, if in that page i write something such as "by some people he's also seen as a murderer," than that places me in a biased position. i am free to discuss his reasons, and that he is not a murderer by my view, but on an official definition, i must say the truth if i wish to keep my credibility.

in the case of pkk, if we were doing this in the year 2000, i would have nothing to say, as pkk was only defined as a terrorist organisation in 2001. (except for iran, iraq and turkey) you would be absolutely right, defining pkk as a terrorist organisation would have been a point of view.. however, since 2001, things have changed drastically. pkk is defined as a terrorist organisation by all members (and current applicants) of the european union, all the states in the middle east, russia, and the united states. these states include all those that have ever been in interaction with pkk. (i.e. china could accept pkk as a terrorist organisation, but it would have been irrelevant as china has nothing to do with pkk.)

now, if in the first sentence, wikipedia is defining pkk as a "militant organisation," that is, an organisation that of "armed militia," this definition presents wikipedia's official standing (free and against the legislations of most of the countries your servers are placed in) in the subject matter. and using such a definition, while there's the real one - terrorist organisation - available, places the wikipedia foundation at a risky position. (frankly, it shows the foundation's undecisive position in this matter, which leads some people to believe that you do not wish to upset sympathizers of pkk.)

stating the fact that "some states" see pkk as a terrorist organisation would be acceptable if it was only Turkey and Iran, however now, all the states that are involved with Pkk have declared it as a terrorist organisation. wikimedia should not be neutral to this fact.

in the united states, where i am browsing wikipedia, it is very much legal to state opinions on issues such as terrorism, (i.e. who is a terrorist, why you believe the government is wrong in stating that pkk is a terrorist group), as long as you do not actively support illegal actions. therefore i have only one problem in wikipedia's definition of pkk: it undermines wikipedia's credibility in my eyes. i begin to see wikipedia as a place where information is limited to the point where it starts upsetting people, regardless of its factuality or legality.

hence any discussion on "whether pkk is a militant or terrorist organisation or not" should be present in the chat page; but on the actual information pages wikimedia should state the facts, and the one and only legal fact about pkk is that it is a terrorist organisation.

also, please note that in the united kingdom, stating pkk is not a terrorist organisation, or using any definition/media that makes such an organisation or its leaders gain other images less than "terrorist" is illegal. for more information, see med tv.

however, i may have disagreements on certain definitions of wikipedia, and due to the nature of this information source, it is expectable. moreover, people have a right to state what they believe, and i respect that. hence i have no grudges against anyone for their opinion. the discussion above is simply an elaboration of my beliefs, and my concern over wikipedia's legal status (based on where its servers are located). facts tend to sort themselves out in time, and due to our international status and lifestyle, they will always vary. as with political matter goes, we are still bound by legality and truth. perhaps in a borderless world the only problem we'd have would be a disagreement over whether "l'entrecot" has a better mustard sauce or "la relais de venice.."

sincerely, 05:28, 23 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]


I have responded to your question, my friend. All the best! --HolyRomanEmperor 20:16, 23 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Also, you didn't send me the newer version... --HolyRomanEmperor 10:25, 24 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Hey Francis,

Thanks for protecting Vlachs - can you please do the same to the Romanians page? There's been a large-scale revert war and I already listed it on WP:RPP. —Khoikhoi 23:23, 23 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

It's only semi-protection, the users who have been POV-warring already have accounts new than 4 days. Could you please upgrade it to full? Thanks. —Khoikhoi 23:30, 23 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thank you very much, you've made my day. Now I'm going go to out and see a movie. —Khoikhoi 23:49, 23 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Sure, no problem! —Khoikhoi 23:53, 23 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Hello Francis,

how are you? We will wait till the opposition will say that accepts you as mediator, in this case Mr. Hottentot (aka KhoiKhoi). Till then you can start reading the documents in romanian presented in talk page, e.g. Israel, where Romanian Embassy from Israel made an official report that estimates the number of romanians in Israel at 10% of population. That means aprox. 450-500,000 romanians. Don't forget that Romanian State continues to send pensions to all of them. Many of them haven't renounces at romanian citizenship, that making them perfectly romanian citizens... --Andrei George 13:06, 24 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

That would be a good idea, but Andrei George is most likely Bonaparte's sockpuppet FYI. —Khoikhoi 15:10, 24 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
And my suspicions were correct. —Khoikhoi 23:29, 24 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]


i have heard you are the author of(the country visited to )is what i want to do on my talk page but i dont know how .would you teach me?


sorry.i will repeat my question again.i*ve visited many talk pages and have seen that was your idea to add on talk page the countries visited by the user is what i want to do on my talk page.would you teach me how to do that?merci suis nouveau fais quelques corrections dans quelques pages j*espere faire plus des edits mais avant je voudrais organizer ma talk vu qui etais ton idee de inclure dans talk page les pays visite*s par le user talk page dans ce cas dans ma talk page. comme je visite* pas mal de pays voudrais les inclure ,peux-tu m*aider? merci i hope you understand j*espere qui vous avez compris

thank you[edit]

merci beaucoup, muito obrigagado, hartelijk bedank, gracias, muito obrigado, thank you.


why is that not supremacist?

Justforasecond 18:30, 24 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

To clarify...could you explain why sayign "we're the baddest, most beautiful things on god's green earth" is not supremacist? Do you support this sort of talk? Justforasecond 19:13, 25 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Your Essay[edit]

...(here) to which you were kind enough to introduce us (here), includes this footnote:

2The name "Republic of Macedonia" is controversial, but fortunately only in Greece.

What is this choice of words doing in a scientific paper?

  • "fortunately"??? Why not unfortunately? Who is the judge of that?
  • "only"??? Is this accurate? Is it complete?

Thank you for showing me your true POV Francis. Now I know how to treat all your edits on the matter... And I won't mention what kind of grade I'd give you, if I were one of the two markers (—or would that footnote fall in this category of ...linguistics, if the markers have a certain other nationality?)...  NikoSilver  (T) @ (C) 22:44, 24 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

It's not the first slip. FunkyFly 23:19, 24 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
In you essay curiously enough you avoid talking about the 85% or so words which are identical in both languages, only stressed differently. The example on page 8 is not quite correct. "Na momˇceto mu ja davam knigata" is a perfectly valid expression in Bulgarian too. You have a typo on the bulgarian word. It is momˇceto. Overall the facts are presented in a very biased fashion. FunkyFly 23:29, 24 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Obviously the paper didn't come as a surprise to me, Francis. I think I know where you stand pretty well by now. What will come as a surprise to you though, is the mark you're gonna get. For future reference, I hope you'd accept my advice: Do not ever let your POV compromise the quality of your academic work. --Avg 23:45, 24 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thankyou all for your kind words, fortunately my professors actually have a sense of humour. Strange as it may seem... I'll let you know when I get my mark back. A personal note to FunkyFly -- yes that is a valid expression in Bulgarian -- you obviously didn't read close enough -- clitic doubling is not present in the standard. A personal note to Avg, I'm afraid that what you think is POV is me stating the facts, if I had given my paper to a nationalist Greek/Macedonian/Bulgarian professor I would imagine I would get a bad mark... fortunately my professors aren't :) My professors for this subject are William Downes and Peter Trudgill. - FrancisTyers 07:44, 25 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I'll clear something out, coz maybe you've misunderstood: Personally, I don't give a [insert euphemism here] about the language/dialect thing (you know that already, so why do you answer on that?) It is your footnote that angers me. I find it very difficult to laugh with this strange kind of nationalistic "humor", as you call it. And you have many examples so far about my broader sense of humor, to remind you just a few see: User:NikoSilver#Humor. Following your definition of humor, I guess that talk about grades and stuff is just a minuscule example of a humorous approach to the matter by me!  NikoSilver  (T) @ (C) 11:47, 25 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Dear Mr Tyers, you probably don't know it, but the derogatory and dismissive language you are using is somewhat reminiscent of BNP rhetoric. May I remind you that Britain is a multi-cultural society that tries to respect diversity - especially at educational institutions. With your swearing, I am a little surprised that you are an administrator and I am surprised that you choose to drop the names of your professors. It might be interesting to have them contribute a few words backing your statements and your approach. Also, I have never come across students who presume to know how they will be marked - unless there have been backhanders which, I am absolutely certain, is not your case. So if, as an administrator, you disagree with something/someone, simply re-iterate the facts as you understand them, not in a manner that can be interpreted as insulting. Thank you for you kind attention and consideration and good luck with your essays. If you like, please send me by email the essay in question - I promise you an impartial response. Politis 12:51, 25 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I don't remember the BNP being anti-nationalist... Perhaps you could point me to a source... - FrancisTyers 13:14, 25 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Francis, please don't play with other people's pain (Greek proverb). It can't be funny for them, whatever the circumstances. I did read your paper (check times between when I was joking with you in the talk and when I posted this "lovely note"). Also, I did see those two conclusions and I agree to both (you know that too). I don't agree 100% with the methodology you used (examples by fellow editors above) but who gives a shit, if "they say so, it is so —end of story". And now to that f***ing footnote:

  • Fortunately —automatically makes your whole essay sound POVish. If a MacSlav editor used it as a source, I (and probably you too) would reject it because it is biased. Humor is one thing, science is another. Now, if you laugh in your class with such humoristic quotes, someone has to introduce you to the further nationalistic ideas that this exact name gives to certain people. You will all COTFLGOHAHA. The problem is that people like me have to defend that every fucking day, and are tired of laughs coz the thing never ends. So instead of using humor to illustrate the Greek reaction, maybe you should use it to illustrate the MacSlav further capitalisation of the name.
  • Only —shows exactly this: Everybody focuses on the Greek reaction and nobody sees further than that. The whole f***ing Hellenic Empire is based on Alexander the Great! It's like King Arthur was claimed by Koreans, for Christ's shake (I am sure you can find a better example for that)! How can a Greek laugh about that all the time? How can s/he not protest after thousands of serious repetitive attacks? Thankfully, ALL international organizations and about a third of the countries in the world, have been manipulated by the Epsilon Team (muhahaha) to not just say WGASA. You think these people are biased too? Don't you give a slight chance that they may just see beyond a name?

PS: Those guys drink it with 2-3 sugars and milk, and those with 1-2 sugars no milk. Also, frappe is rather heavy when drunk black and I consider myself an exception!

PPS: I you use all ten fingers to pesent two open palms to a guy in Greece, he won't like it. (I think I better write an article on the Greek moutza gesture). Anyway, I am glad about your grade coz I don't hate you personally, it's that f***ing "I don't give a shit, and so should all of you" attitude I hate!  NikoSilver  (T) @ (C) 13:48, 25 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Ok. I get it. There's a catch, though: The name could include Macedonia and be disambiguating at the same time, without loosing it's sex-appeal: "Slavomacedonia". Why do you think they object to that too? I mean they are Slavs, aren't they? Does this have to do with Greeks being irrational? But it won't do for their ultimate cause, that's why they do not accept it...
We'll do a little test, if you wish: From now on, instead of answering myself, I'll forward you all related MacSlav crap for you to answer. You'll be funny in the first couple of months, I am sure. After that, you'll start ...drinking your frappé black too!  NikoSilver  (T) @ (C) 14:21, 25 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

For starters, go and comment to those people about their user-pages:

Also comment on User:MatriX (aka "Bitola") for his responses to anonymous me in Talk:Republic_of_Macedonia/Archive7 (search for this time stamp — 09:37, 4 January 2006 (UTC) — and then go to this headline too)Reply[reply]

I'll give you more later...

And PS, those are about half of the votes in your favorite option!  NikoSilver  (T) @ (C) 15:00, 25 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Ok, maybe you should wait for their answers too. Also, you didn't answer to Bitola/MatriX about who the Ancient Macedonians were. In the meantime, you can also comment on my latest response to User:Bomac (what a coincidence! option 1 too!) in the FYROM talk...
PS. I'll keep sending you things like that until you're fed up (you shouldn't have taken the challenge)!  NikoSilver  (T) @ (C) 16:01, 25 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The deaf ears approach is only one way of reaction that is annoying... I am sure you will experience more in the future. If I told you that your recent experiences are a continuous process for me that never ends and that there is no single user from that side that qualifies as a moderate exception, would I sound that "irrational" in my reactions? Oh, and the reactions you experienced (as a third) are definitely milder compared to what we brainless Greek nationalists face everyday... By the way, I am curious: How does it feel now that you know the morale of those with whom you express the same views according to your vote? (don't take this the wrong way, I am not trying to recruit you —I know you are a big boy...)  NikoSilver  (T) @ (C) 11:42, 26 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Ha! Indeed, FlavrSavr qualifies to much more than a moderate exception! That's why, (unlike someone nearby here) he also voted for Option #2 and then transferred his vote to Option #7 (here), which both contain the term FYROM! For user Dcabrilo, I have no comment. You must admit it: Your vote (along with one or two others) are unique exceptions in this poll! It's something like drinking your frappé black! As for me, I guess I belong to the asshole category, coz apart from FlavrSavr, I can't see anybody else with whom I could actually discuss with reason... NikoSilver  (T) @ (C) 12:58, 26 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
 :-) PA! PA! PA! I've been PA'ed by an admin! Wow! What an honour!! I guess I must return the characterisation before someone blocks you for it, so here goes:
You are pretty reasonable too! :-)
Now to the point: I've argued enough with Flavr, to know that he never was mine. I was a little dissapointed when he too tried to twist the guideline text in order to support his arguement, but I guess you could call that an interpretation dispute. As I've said before, I personally don't like the term FYROM either! (You know, the userbox etc —my favorite option is actually New Mk). But this is not the UN, this is WP! If we have rules, then we must follow these rules. Otherwise we are talking about anarchy. Now, my point is, that if we follow the guideline to the letter, then we must rename the article. The spellout is not so bad, after all. It's just two words apart from the current name! Just two very moderate, very descriptive, very disambiguating, very politically correct words, that those other assholes over at the UN chose in order to find an intermediate solution between two irrational approaches. I rest my case...  NikoSilver  (T) @ (C) 13:27, 26 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
You still are a pretty reasonable person! :-) I don't agree but I am bored more than you are about this debate (you're fresh)! I could answer all 4 points but never mind, I don't need to convince you for anything, apart from the probable idea you may have that my views are simply irrational. I'll only copy (I don't remember who said it) an extreme example of the fallacy of the (preferred) self identification idea. The example is not even a loose parallel, but it manages to illustrate that (preferred) self identification is not panacea:
If Iranians tomorrow morning chose to rename their country to "Death to all Americans" (or smthng like that), would you:
(a) Rename the article as such (after all, it's definitely not politically correct)
(b) Keep the article name as-is and include the new name in the intro and/or section for NPOV
(c) Not change anything
I'd go for (b), what would you do?
PS. The proverb you were probably looking for is: Distilling the mosquito, but it would not be complete, since it goes like:
  • Swallowing the camel, and distilling the mosquito! (katapinein tin kamilon kai diylizein ton konopa)
(neither is good, so don't do the first either)!  NikoSilver  (T) @ (C) 15:23, 26 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Hey saboteur, take a look at what you may be about to sabotage first...  NikoSilver  (T) @ (C) 17:05, 26 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
See WP:DICK.  NikoSilver  (T) @ (C) 17:24, 26 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Ha! I thought it first!  NikoSilver  (T) @ (C) 17:33, 26 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Myth and language[edit]

I don't remember any interesting Northern-European myths regarding the origin of language. Snorri Sturluson's Gylfaginning has this paragraph on the first human beings:

When the sons of Borr were walking along the sea-strand, they found two trees, and took up the trees and shaped men of them: the first gave them spirit and life; the second, wit and feeling; the third, form, speech, hearing, and sight. They gave them clothing and names: the male was called Askr, and the female Embla, and of them was mankind begotten, which received a dwelling-place under Midgard. [11]

Snorri's source here must have been Völuspá, see the Lóðurr article for the relevant verses. But this isn't really interesting in the context of language origin specifically.

Kudos on that Sudanese literature stub! Haukur 22:57, 24 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Hi, Francis. Remember me? You were once mediator in Republika Srpska article. Now, some user vandalised my user page putting template about sockpuppet. So, I would like that you or other administrators check whether I am a sockpuppet and after that (and I am not a sockpuppet, but still you check) warn that user because he spread propaganda about myself. --Emir Arven 12:50, 25 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Ok, thanks for the info :) --Emir Arven 13:21, 25 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

As promised[edit]

I used to live in Waveney Terrace, read in the Sainsbury Centre and my friends collected interesting mushrooms just beyond it. I am sure that tells you what we have in common ;-). And yes, it is very, very flat and windy.

  • I found the text a little disjointed and expected at least one reference presenting an opposite view. Occasionally the text swayed into editorialising / partisanship (especially footnote 2), thereby distracting from the validity of arguments. Some information seemed unessential; for instance, the statistics of geographical Macedonia. To included these seems to introduce a subtext identifying the region with the language, especially in (p.2) with “despite the name, the ROM occupies only part of the wider area…”; here we have a superfluous adverb (only) but the editorialising aspects of the essay and the geographical references can give this adverb the notions of ‘merely’ and ‘not enough’. There is also confusion and overlapping over the terms 'Macedonia' and 'ROM' and 'historical' references to the term 'Macedonia/n' when it was not in use. A sound reference to local dialects is (p.3) 'the dialect of the Ohrid region of Macedonia'; that is concise and accurate.
  • Some dates are imprecise and occasionally inaccurate.
  • Factual mistakes include assumptions that Cyril's (it's St Cyril in the Balkans) was a native speaker of Slavic and Thessaloniki was a Greek speaking town.
  • You rightly refer to the ‘dialect continuum’. This gradually consolidated into standardised languages, such as Bulgarian, Serbian, etc. Then you fail to use that in support of the Macedonian language. You might have indicated that Skopje’s standardisation of the dialect on its territory into ‘standard Macedonian’ also involved making choices in terms of grammatical structure and choosing an official glossary - to the detriment of other dialectic possibilities. Skopje “imposed” the national language, just as Sofia was doing it with Bulgarian – but you seem to pass judgment on Sofia. In fact, it is precisely because Skopje settled on a standardised language that it could impose it on all those whom it considered Macedonian (Slavs). As you say, “victims of linguistic repression may, under the influence of nationalist ideology, easily become perpetrators of linguistic repression”. Skopje attempted that with the Albanian, Turkish and Greek Macedonians; in fact the rich dialects of Macedonian Slav are disappearing in Greece partly because of such ‘impositions’; but mainly, because the Macedonian (Slav) language exists and standardisation has been the norm in every country.
  • I am not a linguist. So, overall, the case is well argued and the inaccuracies and key historical mistakes do not jeopardise the conclusion. I would definitely give this a pass. What did you get? Politis 16:50, 25 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I appreciate the fact that you identify yourself; I wish more people did so, it would avoid sockpupets etc. I have given much about myself except for the surname. Politis 17:17, 25 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Your mediation case[edit]

I looked at the case you were mediating at Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-02-21 List of countries by area and have found no changes since February. Is this case still active? If not, I will mark it as closed and move it to the archive section. Thanks. Cowman109Talk 19:13, 25 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Macedonian and Bulgarian[edit]

The .pdf you wrote seems interesting, I'll read it as soon as find the time. Here, at the salty Balkans, the borders seem to fuck with us more frequently. I'm under impression that some borders will always exist, as seen by my talk with Sysin here. Anyways, take care!--FlavrSavr 19:15, 25 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hey Francis,

I was curious, take a look at this edit. The sentence claims that since 1984 the PKK has been attacking government forces and civilians. However, the source cited is just a BBC news article about one instance when civilians were killed. The only part when the word "cilvian" is mentioned in the article is further down in the commentary section, where you find the following:

I am Turk, living in UK. Cesme is in Izmir, where my hometown is, and Kusadasi is very close, which we visit every summer. I was first worried that my relatives were among the injured, thanks god, they were not. These inhumane attacks on innocent civilians are no less barbaric or inhumane than those committed in London; and should be equally condemned. Terror has no particular race, religion or ethnicity. It is inhumane to sympathise with these evil attacks or the motivation behind the attacks on innocent civilians.
Aykut Uz, Basingstoke

My question to you is, is the sentence in the Abdullah Öcalan article accurate, or is it just POV-pushing? It seems that the user is just trying to demonize the PKK based on that one article.

Thanks in advance. —Khoikhoi 00:40, 26 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Yeah, I honestly think the PKK article should be rewritten. Anyways, thanks for the help. I'll notify you if he reverts again. BTW, what specific excitement? The anon who got mad at Ronline or the chorus of happy Bonaparte socks going, "Francis is a friend of Romanians"! :p —Khoikhoi 00:54, 26 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Hmmmm, it wouldn't hurt. As cjlw said, this has been going on for 6 months, it would be great if it could be put to an end. —Khoikhoi 01:02, 26 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

OK, but you do realise that in the days of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia all there was were pretty much Serbs, Croats and Slovenes (and numerous minorities: Albanians, Roma, Bulgarians, Greeks, Vlachs etc). Back then, no one had even heard of Macedonian, Montenegrin and Muslim/Bosniak nations - these were dreamt up by Tito; it was like an art form for him. You know, some of us create drawings, he created ethnicities ;-) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Telex (talkcontribs) 17:37, 26 April 2006

being Romanian is bad?[edit]

I don't think is bad, if you wonder! Why then to put exactly on your page these statements? Don't you want to be neutral? I find no reasons to add on the fron page lines like: I am not, I am definitely not,...--Hassion 18:01, 26 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I propose you better something like: I am ..., I am definitely ..., something more like positive view..--Hassion 18:02, 26 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Of course not - I'm relying on nationalistic sources, the absence of conclusive proof, the Bulgarophobic paranoia and the mass desertion of 10% of Macedonians to the Bulgarian camp a few years ago. Telex 19:39, 26 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

So what do you believe? Whatever it is, I'm hoping it is not those outrageous lies written over at User:Macedonia and User:Makedonia. The User:Asteraki you linked to is not really inaccurate like the other two, but is busting with ultra-jingoism. Telex 19:39, 26 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I mean regarding Macedonians, Montenegrins, Moldovans etc. Telex 19:44, 26 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Sorry Telex, but you've been too much confuse here, so I would say. --Hassion 19:46, 26 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Books that you read now Francis[edit]

I would have a question, what's your last book you read it with pleasure? --Hassion 19:50, 26 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Attitude of some users[edit]

Look at some examples around you Francis, there are some "machines" around you, they act like robots. I would call them reverting machines...--Hassion 19:59, 26 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Can you do something about this article - it's being vandalised. Telex 20:08, 26 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

One quote you might like[edit]

Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. -- Albert Einstein

(I got the above from Bertilvidet's user page) —Khoikhoi 23:58, 26 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Kurdistan/Kurd stubs[edit]

I deleted the politician stub, but I think you should TfD this one: {{Kurdistan-bio-stub}}. - FrancisTyers 11:09, 27 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Is that really necesary? Same arguments apply. And both were created by the same person whom is also a suspected sockpuppet (not just by me). --Cat out 11:10, 27 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
We have {{africa-bio-stub}}, which isn't a country. The TfD seemed to deal with just politicians. - FrancisTyers 11:14, 27 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Well... You love burocracy, I'll give you that. Done. However I expect nothing less than vote stacking... --Cat out 11:43, 27 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Is it posible for you to have a talk page link? :) --Cat out 11:45, 27 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hah, tired of seeing my face? :)) Well, I considered it, but I don't really know how to do a personalised sig, and I'm not sure I really approve of the whole practice. Perhaps I could have a very reserved version? - FrancisTyers 11:51, 27 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Your face is nice, but I'd prefer a pretty girl instead :P
I'll tutor you in the process, its actualy quite simple. Click preferances sellect the checkbox for "raw signatures". And replace the field (labeled "Nickname:") with something like:
[[User:FrancisTyers|FrancisTyers]] [[User talk:FrancisTyers|Talk]]
It is the same wiki code, nothing special. Of course you can make it beultiful like my simple sig. :)
--Cat out 12:10, 27 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Testing! FrancisTyers 12:15, 27 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

How about:


(it won't appear black outside this particular page). That way, you can avoid the mdash too, if you want! :-)  NikoSilver  (T) @ (C) 12:34, 27 April 2006 (UTC) <-(who am I to propose for shorter sigs!)Reply[reply]

Not sure I approve of splitting up my name :D I've used a nbsp for now, seems to work ok. - FrancisTyers   12:37, 27 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Help needed[edit]

Hi, can you take a look at the Macedonian orthodox church? I think the infobox doesn't present POV in any case, but some editors are removing it constantly. MatriX 11:33, 27 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Not quite; you are adding unsourced POV to the infobox. I challenge you to cite one source confirming these claims. That link does not even mention John of Debar, nor has an example of that logo been cited. Telex 11:39, 27 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
...And, MatriX, if you cite sources, I'll be the first to support you. You have my word on it. Syn Athena kai cheira kinei! NikoSilver  (T) @ (C) 11:54, 27 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Well, I argue mostly about removal of coat of arm. I have seen it many times on different occasions, the coat is also included on the Macedonian WP: [12] and also in different web-sites, for example:[13], [14]. I also agrue about the removal of church founder, although I'm not much insisting because I have no big knowledge about that person. I found so far references to it in Bulgarian_Orthodox_Church and Debar articles. MatriX 12:45, 27 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
If you are certain, then I'll add it (don't do it yourself or you'll violate the 3RR). As for John of Debar, he was a bishop of the Bulgarian Archbishopric of Ohrid, quite unrelated to the MOC which was founded in 1967 by the Macedonian Communist Party contrary to church canon. Telex 12:50, 27 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Ok, I agree to include again the coat of arm in the article. The sites I provided are not some nationalistic sites, the first link goes to the official web site of the Bregalnica diocese of the church and the second one is dedicated to American Canadian diocese. I doubt that there are many non-Macedonian sites dealing with the coat of arm of the Macedonian church, however, I will be happy to find one. A question to Telex, do you really believe that a communist party can found a church? [15] MatriX 12:59, 27 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
No, they can't. If they could, the MOC would be recognised by all Orthodox Churches (Russian, Serbian, Greek, Romanian, Albanian etc). Don't claim that the name "Macedonian" in the title has anything to do with it; the Montenegrin Orthodox Church is also unrecognised for the same reason. It was founded by bullying from the secular authorites. For recognition, you must rejoin the Serbian Orthodox Church and begin negotiations in compliance with canon law just like everybody else (except the Church of Constantinople). It will take a few years, but what you will have is legitimacy. Telex 13:04, 27 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Guys, I appreciate you coming to me. But I really have no idea about this subject. As far as I am aware, anyone can start a church and use whatever symbolism they want. I really don't know what else to tell you. - FrancisTyers 13:14, 27 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Coat of Arms: Couldn't care less, I mean there has to be an emblem or something, right? Feel free to add it Telex, as I said, I'll support.
John of Debar: I am not convinced.
Communist party: The difference is in totalitarianism. THAT can do anything in a country! As someone wiser than me said:
"Political power corrupts. Absolut political power, corrupts absolutely!"
Quiz: Who was he?  NikoSilver  (T) @ (C) 13:16, 27 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
OK - I'll readd the emblem. Telex 13:21, 27 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Correct! Francis and MatriX, when you come to Greece, I'll buy you that beer. Check here for the correct quote of my re-translated translation from the Greek translation. The Re-translator of the translated text.

PS:The darn edit conflict thingy seems to fail...

This is private property. Please take all your comments elsewhere. If you do not remove yourself you will be sorry. TTP - Talk Page Police 13:18, 27 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Ha! Sorry, I was carried away! (I pressed [edit] when I was reading MatriX's comment, while Telex and Francis had already stepped in!) Don't push me, though, coz I'll have you merged with ems!!!  NikoSilver  (T) @ (C) 13:26, 27 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Of course that anyone can found a church, that is exactly what, for example, Jovan Vranishkovski is doing at the moment here:[16]. For me it is always amazing how much political issues we have in the Orthodox world (as in all other places of course). To answer NikoSilver: Lord Acton? MatriX 13:25, 27 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]


सीमाओं को चोदो <-- I am sorry but I missed a dot earlier, and believe me it makes lots of difference. \o/ --Andy123(talk) 11:56, 27 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

So you still don't remember me? Miskin 15:27, 27 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Of course I remember you, we talked on irc! Although I can't for the life of me remember what about :) - FrancisTyers 15:31, 27 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I thought you didn't (otherwise I might have not sent you that hostile message). You asked me to verify some translation and then contribute on the French-to-English wikiproject. I forgot the rest. Miskin 15:34, 27 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hi, could you give me your opinion on this. Telex 15:40, 27 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Consider it opinioned :) - FrancisTyers 15:56, 27 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I transferred the talk to mine. You can continue there if you want. I'll be absent too, but at least it's with my consent! :-)  NikoSilver  (T) @ (C) 16:57, 27 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks for the Romanian translation :-) How do you know Romanian BTW, are you Romanian - and why do you only mention English and French in your personal page? Telex 19:10, 27 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

LOL - of course I'm a cosmopolitan. The problem is, I've yet to meet anyone else who is one as well ;-) Telex 19:14, 27 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I wanted to learn Serbo-Croatian too (you learn four languages in one). The problem is that I was baffled by the number of cases so I chose Chinese instead ;p Telex 19:18, 27 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Yeah, I got the hint. The problem is, I have no idea what that means and I have never heard anything like that in Albanian before, so I can't help you. Telex 19:24, 27 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Oh yeah, I've still never heard that saying before. What Ilir wrote was a literal translation of the English. Telex 19:32, 27 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Francis, depends how "hard" the expression should be, sometimes you can also use "shit" "f**" whichever. The one I wrote in your user page means literally F*** the border, and it is used sometimes, hehe by some friends of mine who cannot travel freely because of visas :)). Ilir pz 19:41, 27 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
You are welcome, Francis. Yeah, visas also :)))Ilir pz 20:01, 27 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Nationalist test[edit]

OK, so the test is your own work. The problem with the test is you cannot be 100% sure of the statements there. Some even give facts from future (Without support from England the Welsh economy would collapse.). I'm not aware of Welsh economy but I think you cannot be that sure to say that, and if you're saying that you're being an English nationalist. Kilts are skirts for men. What if skirts are kilts for women, actually? Then you can't say I'm a Scottish nationalist when I oppose that. Armenian genocide happened and Turks are to blame. No I'm not the one to blame just because I'm Turk, if you mean that (that is we assume the genocide has happened). I haven't done anything bad to an Armenian nor I hate Armenians by default so there is nothing to blame me. Maybe just asking wheather one considers himself a nationalist could produce more reliable results. --levent 19:55, 27 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Francis, check how it can be that you are the unaware supporter of the ultimate form of nationalism in your special sub-page! I find it very amusing!  NikoSilver  (T) @ (C) 22:13, 27 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
*blushes* — Oh my! What a touching gesture. Unfortunately your logic is fundamentally flawed! Btw, did you ever check if the Greek on my fun page was accurate? - FrancisTyers
For more on that check your sub-page again and try to philosophize it. For the other thing:
  • Γαμιούνται τα (εθνικά) Σύνορα means The country borders are being fucked or ...are fucking themselves (passive-middle voice). The ethnika clarification is redundant, I think.
  • Γάμα τα Σύνορα means You (go and) fuck the border (it gives an order, we call it prostaktiki - I don't know the international term, coz there isn't one in English)
  • Γαμώ τα Σύνορα means I fuck the borders (this gives an implied suggestion: if I am a follower of that, why don't you become one too)

They last two translate exactly to the vague (for Greeks) Fuck the Border!! I'd go for the third. Take your pick!  NikoSilver  (T) @ (C) 23:56, 27 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I was informed that the ethnika was necessary as otherwise it may refer to "fuck the limits" as in "far out man". Regarding "prostaktiki" are you talking about the imperative [mood]? I shall ponder upon those, and I'm just working on a reply to you now. - FrancisTyers 00:13, 28 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
It is as necessary as it'd be in English, so that you don't confuse it with your ...window's border! Limits would be Oria NOT Synora. And yep, imperative it is.  NikoSilver  (T) @ (C) 00:47, 28 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Have you read this - do, before handing in your paper. Telex 00:06, 28 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Haha. "Prof. James F. Clarke, International Institute for Macedonia, Sofia, 1998". I read it. - FrancisTyers 00:13, 28 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I think 'gamiountai' is fine. Miskin 00:08, 28 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Everything is fine, I just realized that gamo ta synora" may mean "those borders are fucking A!!" So use the 1st or 2nd instead...  NikoSilver  (T) @ (C) 00:47, 28 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]
LOL that would usually have a "ke" at the beginning (ke gamo ta synora). I still prefer your third version but the first is ok (no ethnika of course, what other synora are there anyway, there's only a turkish series that is called ta synora tis agapis:-))). --Avg 00:52, 28 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]