User talk:ClemRutter

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2014

Reclining-Declining Sundials

Dear ClemRutter,

Sorry for the many edits and re-edits to the Reclining-Declining Sundials paragraph.

But I think that I've now got the right formulas now for the gnomon angles at last. Where do I get them ? I derived them - not by any fancy means like rotation matrices or quaternions; but rather through good old-fashioned 3-D Euclidean geometry. By this I mean that I constructed physical models of the reclining-declining dial geometry using cardboard sheets for planes and strips of wire for optical paths and pertinent geometry lines/angles. I chose to do it this way as :

1) The results are far more concrete and convincing when this method is employed. This is particularly true in the reclining-declining dial case as there are many different formulas published for its hour angle and its gnomon angles.

2) The people who build these dials will generally come from a trades background. This means that they would generally have begun apprenticeships at 16 - 17 and their math level will be up to UK GCSE/O-level or French Brevet standard -- i.e. Euclidean geometry, basic trigonometry and basic algebra. My method is followable by people at this standard.

In due course I plan to submit a paper on this method - as well as the relevant diagrams (using Google SketchUp) for the vital geometrical relationships - to the North American Sundial Society.

The ${\displaystyle s_{o}}$ orientation switch integer for generalizing the hour angle formula over all dial declinations is the only 'novelty' added to the existing nomenclature. I find it handy when programming.

If you have any points to make on the actual formulas presented in Wiki by me or want to offer alternatives for discussion, please feel free.

Tamjk (talk) 10:52, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

I am enjoying the links personally but having difficulty in seeing how all this can be justified under WP:NOR. I would be inclined to keep the published sources (right or wrong) and include the improvements (unpublished corrections wrapped in a {{efn}} template that links to the {{notelist}} footnote. Rest assured I accept your maths as being superior.
What I was about to do was to change all the notation which I got from Waugh, Mayall & Mayall to the agreed symbols used by and recommended by the BSS- but that is also on hold while I sort out a useable python library.
It is interesting that fr:Cadran incliné-déclinant doesnt exist but all other types fr:Cadran déclinant have separate page- I haven't analysed which notation convention they are using- but I suspect that even there they are excluded most readers by using Greek letters which are not taught at brévet/ GCSE level.
Many thoughts - much to do -- 11:34, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Well, there's no original research here. Simply the same results via a more traditional and more workmanlike method. The hour angle formula is the same (bar using reclination angle instead of inclination) as those presented by Snyder and others :

The gnomon angle formulas are the same as those presented in the BSS Formulae webpage, at least the dial-plate angle (the "style height" in BSS parlance) once you allow for their defining inclination w.r.t. the rear horizontal rather than the front (i.e. sun side) horizontal.

Unfortunately they have the substyle-noon angle wrong - but so did all of us originally.

Tamjk (talk) 16:10, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Okay. I've now completed changing the Greek nomenclature to Roman. Tamjk (talk) 14:05, 18 April 2014 (UTC)mmm

Hi Mr Rutter. It seems that I owe you an apology for having given you so much grief by way of other posters rejecting my hour-angle formulae ! But I shall make no apology at all for the hour-angle formulae themselves. I am confident that they are correct since I derived them two ways - and moreover since they square with those of Snyder [ref. above], allowing for his nomenclature definition. The gnomon-plate and the substyle-noon angles are also consistent with those quoted in some other sources. LIkewise with the critical angle expression for the reclined-declined dial. I'd intended putting out a paper detailing my derivations but other obligations intervened. Hopefully this summer.

Tamjk (talk) 18:27, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

To December 2015

As you are a previous editor of City of Adelaide (1864), you may be interested in the Style Proposal on Talk:City of Adelaide (1864)
ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 22:11, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Books and Bytes - Issue 9

The Wikipedia Library

Books & Bytes
Issue 9, November-December 2014
by The Interior (talk · contribs), Ocaasi (talk · contribs), Sadads (talk · contribs)

• New donations, including real-paper-and-everything books, e-books, science journal databases, and more
• New TWL coordinators, conference news, a new open-access journal database, summary of library-related WMF grants, and more
• Spotlight: "Global Impact: The Wikipedia Library and Persian Wikipedia" - a Persian Wikipedia editor talks about their experiences with database access in Iran, writing on the Persian project and the JSTOR partnership
MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 23:36, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Corliss steam engine

Hello ClemRutter, please look at the Discussion page of Corliss steam engine ... Maybe we can find a solution to the images. --Metilsteiner (talk) 19:24, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Well met

It was good to meet you at the London meetup today. The article I mentioned, which uses one of your photos, is wrap reel. I am generally interested in textile topics so will look out for you in this area now. Andrew D. (talk) 22:19, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Richard Watts Charities

Clem. I've corrected a minor typo (which was nothing to do with the work you're doing). I have also changed the nested sfn to an efn for the note with an sfn for the citation. I think it makes more sense, but if you disagree you know where the revert mechanism is. I'm guessing you're still working on this, so I'll leave the cite error alone for a while. Thanks and regards, Martin of Sheffield (talk) 23:26, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

I was just doing some of the donkey work then going to message you to ask your opinion- I stop now and let you have a go with the hard ones. I was on the page due to a comment at the London Meetup that there were no articles on Workhouses.(not true but nearly so). All Saints Hospital was the former Chatham Workhouse and in chasing Strood Workhouse on Gun Lane- I found Richard Watts Charities. -- 23:42, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
Not a problem, I just didn't want to interfere unduly with your constructive work. The article is one I worked on quite a time ago, 2013 was only when it split from Richard Watts. That was only a stub back in 2011 when I started on it, but I inherited the citations. I agree they could do with a refresh - this seems like a discussion & consensus so with your help I'll be WP:BOLD! :-) Martin of Sheffield (talk) 21:44, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Done Martin of Sheffield (talk) 23:06, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

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European Route of Industrial Heritage
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Mass-produced museums

Hallo Clem, I've found a batch of your museum stubs filing under "X" in Category:Stubs - don't forget to fix the DEFAULTSORT, rather than leave it at the default XXXXX of your pattern. All the best, PamD 23:54, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

yes, I just do it to get noticed. Oops you are not supposed to use humour! Nice to hear from you. -- 00:06, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Manchester Grammar School

I am new to Wikipedia editing and seek assistance from someone more experienced to help guide me in improving the article about Manchester Grammar School. You have kindly made a large number of superb edits on the Manchester Grammar School article I wondered if you might be able to help me. As Head of Computing at this school I have a vast amount of 'original research' knowledge and wish to learn how to translate this into 'allowed content' bearing in mind the strict NOR and COI guidelines. In particular there are many sections in the article that require citations, and some existing citations that no longer work as the main school website has been changed recently and now has much reduced content. Also there is little currently published online about the school that relates to much of the existing content. The main school website at www.mgs.org is not something under my control, but I am the webmaster of the official school Virtual Learning Environment at www.mgscentral.org and therefore could place accurate content about the school on that site that could be cited on Wikipedia. I believe that under existing Wikipedia COI rules this may be deemed OK, but it is an area about which I have failed to find clear guidance on Wikipedia. Any advice or help would be greatly appreciated.Serendipityrules (talk) 12:26, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Just wanted to say thank you so much for your swift, considered and detailed response to my request. Outstanding.Serendipityrules (talk) 12:34, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
The tone of that article is all wrong, it is too long and reads like a prospectus. There is much dead wood to chop out, I cut off a little bit. J3Mrs (talk) 17:58, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

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VisualEditor News 2015—#1

Since the last newsletter, the Editing Team has fixed many bugs and worked on VisualEditor's appearance, the coming Citoid reference service, and support for languages with complex input requirements. Status reports are posted on Mediawiki.org. Upcoming plans are posted at the VisualEditor roadmap.

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Private schools

Thanks for your reply re. this topic. I think the point we must never forget about British private schools is that although they are charities (nominally at least - but that's another matter!), they are also businesses. Therefore, they go out of their way to promote themselves. Usually they do this in several ways - not all of which are suitable for Wikipedia.

I haven't tagged all the private school articles I've looked at recently as I think some of them are alright. But it is notable that many of the state school articles (although too thin), show a completely different emphasis in their content.

I have no problem with the schools being on Wikipedia:

• As historical institutions. Many of them are old, and so of interest for that reason alone. I suppose architecture is a related subject.
• As far as alumni go, most of these schools are interested in churning out high earners in the professions. This gets reflected in many of those listed as former pupils. (A quick scout around often reveals that School X has interesting alumni who are notable in other fields, esp. the arts, but who aren't useful for advertising.)
• Some schools such as Stowe have features (grounds, buildings) which predate the school; others such as Dulwich have art collections, sculptures etc - all of these are non-academic points of interest more modern state schools tend to lack.

However, not sure what to do about the pushing of exam pass rates. As far as I'm concerned, private education uses a number of tricks to help raise these figures - scholarships being the most obvious. Third party references are better, but even then I'm sceptical.

Other traits I see in these articles, which come up again and again, are computing/science facilities (good, but how do they compare to elsewhere?), foreign pupils (Asians etc have been coming to British private schools since 19th century. Nothing new, or interesting), CCF (child soldier-y, again I think of limited interest to outsiders) and so on.-MacRùsgail (talk) 15:18, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more and said something similar up the page, they are often too long and read like a school prospectus. What's encyclopedic about after school clubs, etc? J3Mrs (talk) 19:21, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
This is exactly it. We're not here to provide the schools with potential paying pupils, we're here to talk about points of interest about the school, which concern readers who want to research history etc.-MacRùsgail (talk) 14:58, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

In agreement too. There are many sections that are toxic- but unfortunately informative. Can we roll back to the Talk:Manchester Grammar School page, where we have a new editor User talk:Serendipityrules willing to take on the task of adding verifiable facts- but wanted advice on what WP policy was on conflict of interest. After fighting the spaghetti on the CofI pages I passed on advice on the way staff members should announce them selves, which he has followed. Coming from a local government background I am familiar with the declarations of substantive/non substantive- financial/nonfinancial that councillors make. WP is far slacker.

The second interesting question is what makes a satisfactory secondary source. The line I take is that anything published in a pupils day book is a secondary source, while anything published in the staff handbook maybe. In the staff handbook, the bullying policy will be signed and dated as a text agreed and published in the governors minutes of xx-blah-blah. In a state school that is a public primary source- but I can say whether academies or private schools keep these as private document. Clarification needed- I suspect it case by case.But since I used these documents- everything has gone on line, and I haven't been able to work out whether open pages on the school intranet( different from its fundraising website) have the same status as the pupils day book. Or further what we do about the closed pages which are password protected. These pages are now just about the only thing visible about a school- save the sponsored press release.

Take for example: the ficticious Blagdon Messenger- owned by Lord Retarded, who prints good articles about Blagdon Independent School, take a look at the Governors, and see three generations of Retardeds have been chair- and the currrent Head once shared a cell with Lord Retarded half-brother when they were at Eton or Broadmoor.

School histories by a sychophantic old boy?

See WP:WPSCHOOLS/AG it does suggest what should be included but does not address the question of social class bias. Indeed I haven't ever read through it completely - I get so annoyed at the class bias in the analysis. That is another story- but is it the elephant in the room.

I go back to some useless sections- because of the nature of British Society- the chair of all major sports federations will be one of the the Eton elite. Look at the Olympic Sports-- you sure as hell are not going to succeed unless you have been coached in these after school clubs at one of these bastions of privilege. WP seems to go overboard on sporting achievement-- and music and drama, all disproportionately represented by the elite.

We need to have clear GAs for guidance- I suggested we look at Norwich School (independent school) and User:Kudpung suggested looking at Hanley Castle Grammar School (no longer independent) and Malvern College.

While I will help, as I have in the past, I am not dedicating my WPself to the cause. I do keep my offWP life separate. -- 23:42, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

On my watchlist The King's School, Chester- where does one start?
AFAICS there's nothing much wrong with The King's School, Chester. Articles about schools that provide mainstream education to Grade 12 or 6th form are all perfectly acceptable whatever state they are in, but they should of course be cleaned up for neutrality (in this case schools on the Indian sub continent are the worst offenders, but that is more of an issue of the traditional use of flowery English in that region, as Western native English speakers who has lived and worked there will know). At least British schools articles do talk about what they teach - the vast majority of US school articls do nothing other than promote their sports results. As coordinator of for many years of WP:WPSCH, I beg users to turn their talents to improving really poor articles about schools rather than looking for reasons to poke holes in articles that are actually quite good, but just happen to be fee paying schools. Many school articles are a mess because they are written in good faith by the pupils, which does not necessarily mean thet they are conciously abusing our COI guidelines. One UK independent school that does need a constant watchful eye is Nottingham High School. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 00:59, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
Be positive! Good faith IP school pupils (KS4/KS5) or in exceptional circumstance (KS3) are our bread and butter editors in 2025-30. Catch them young, have them contributing while they are writing obscure dissertations as undergrads. Have them patrolling our references- it will do their Uni marks a world of good. I would love to have one correcting my spelling and grammar.
The expectations we have for UK schools is far higher than the puff pieces we expect from over the Atlantic. Working to those higher standards, the evidence shows:
1. State schools are underrepresented- and they are the most important ones to get right.
2. There are a plethora of school types that have been created as the 1944 compromise has been unravelled
3. Private school articles, by their emphasis on flashy facilitys are playing a game with us- there is no reliable information.
4. Need to get the infobox right- for the sake of wikidata.
5. We have two new editors willing to help.
I address the problem of what our readers may want (well its a starting point). If you are a head teacher (chair of governors), you need to see how other schools are coping- the classic example is IGCSE and BTec no longer counting in the Ofsted League Tables. If you are a WP writing/reading parent you need to know what languages are taught at KS5- as this affects your choice at eleven and the feeder primary school you select at four- and ultimately where you buy a house. If you are councillor you need feedback on how you have applied the Cameron's savage cuts. Wikipedia is the Portal to all knowledge.
How do we handle this better? Do we write a series of essays on how to write an article:
• How to write the perfect Wikipedia article on a fee-paying public school:plaudits and pitfalls- a guide for governors, teachers students and interested Wikipedians.
• How to write the perfect Wikipedia article on a fee-paying private school:plaudits and pitfalls- a guide for governors, teachers students and interested Wikipedians.
• How to write the perfect Wikipedia article on a fee-paying former HMC school:plaudits and pitfalls- a guide for governors, teachers students and interested Wikipedians.
• How to write the perfect Wikipedia article on a state comprehensive school under local authority support:plaudits and pitfalls- a guide for governors, teachers students and interested Wikipedians.
• How to write the perfect Wikipedia article on a state comprehensive school with Academy status:plaudits and pitfalls- a guide for governors, teachers students and interested Wikipedians.
• How to write the perfect Wikipedia article on a selective state school with Academy status:plaudits and pitfalls- a guide for governors, teachers, students and interested Wikipedians.
• How to write the perfect Wikipedia article on a Cameron freeschool:plaudits and pitfalls- a guide for governors, teachers, students and interested Wikipedians.
These essays must be task focused and have all the relevant details transcluded onto one page- wikilinking does not work if the document is going to be printed off to be discussed at a committee. I see this as a possible.
We have a backlog of embarrassing articles- but they are all over the place. When I am in a grizzly mood I don't mind pulling an article back together, if I could select one from a convenient list. A monthly mailing of all schools/ or schools for concern listed under subheadings as Public/Private/HMC/State/Academy/CameronFree/ with a link to the relevant essay- may be a possible idea.
Now for fantasy land- as a former chair of governors (three weeks) I would be mortified to find my schools WP was not perfect. Email a RfC to each known Chair of Governors (via the LEA). Attach an essay on -How to write the perfect Wikipedia article, and ask them to agenda it. We need to have enough resources to cope with the avalanche of requests for training and Wikipedians in Residence- and the number of new editors. Be positive - and delegate. Put together the tools- a easy CoI I template, a I would expect to see template for the talkpage...
On the problems on the subcontinent we can take the same approach- when we have a working model for the UK (or vice versa).
On the tricky problem of School intranets v school websites- do you have any thoughts?-- 10:43, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
The one thing with a lot of state schools is that they tend to be newer, so less history, and the buildings are invariably less interesting. However, I do notice that unlike the private school articles, state school articles are pretty poor about listing alumni. I've tried to rectify this in some cases, but the simple fact is that there are so many state schools!
Regarding private school alumni, I get bored of seeing long lists of undistinguished judges and diplomats. They probably belong on either dedicated alumni lists (which I support in most cases) or in the categories. Digging around, you find out that many of these people are doing what their parents did... not much of an achievement. I'm more interested in ground-breaking novelists and painters, but they obviously don't sell a school so well! (They're often poor earners, and had colourful lives. Which interests me, but not someone trying to flog school places.)
As you've probably noticed, there's a lot of work to be done on this score. I think this needs a page of its own. -MacRùsgail (talk) 14:58, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Your demonstration Bifilar sundial for lat 51.5

Yes, the French article, if it said that string F1 lines on the meridian, must have meant "meridian-plane". String F1 lies on the meridian-plane. Of course it would be clearer just to say that string F1 lies north-south.

I checked the meridian article, and it looked ok.

No doubt you already have this information, but let me send it anyway:

For a Bifilar sundial, for latitude 51.5, with the north-south string 10 centimeters above the dial-face, the east-west string should be 7.826 centimeters above the dial-face.

Point C, where the hour-lines meet, and about which the hour-lines are drawn, at 15-degree intervals, should be 6.275 centimeters behind (north of) where the two strings intersect.

I'm assuming that south is positive for y, in the co-ordinate system.

Michael Ossipoff — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.8.169.50 (talk) 22:10, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll make one Wednesday-- and test it when the sun returns!. -- 22:24, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Point C is _south_ of point O. ...by h2/tan(lat). I'd mistakenly told you it was north.

Clem--

I've just realized that I got the directions backwards:

Point C is h2/tan(lat) _south_ of point O.

The reason why I initially told it to you backwards was because I was confusing the direction of the sun with the direction of the shadow.

Today or tonight, I'll go the Cadran Bifilaire wikipedia page, and change the places where I said the direction wrong.

I clarified the language at Cadran Bifilaire (English) a bit, wording things as they're said in English, fixing a few ambiguities.

That page didn't say the direction for positive X and Y, but it can be determined by the fact that, if C were North of O, that would mean that sometimes the intersection's shadow would be going around C in the wrong direction, anti-clockwise (counter-clockwise, as we say here). So point C must be south of point O.

Ordinarily I write at the same topic-heading that I already started, but this time it seemed important enough to start a new topic heading, to maximize the chance of this message being noticed.

Michael Ossipoff — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.8.169.50 (talk) 21:31, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

The hour-usability disadvantage of the Bifilar Dial (with specifics for lat 51.5, winter solstice)

Clem--

Of course the Bifilar isn't usable all day. It has that disadvantage in common with the standard flat vertical dial, the polar dial, and the nodus dial, when those dials only use one flat face.

In particular, for latitude 51.5, and with the north-south wire 10 cm above the dial-face:

At the winter solstice, in order to be usable till half an hour before sunset, a Bifilar dial would have to extend nearly 5 feet out from where the wires intersect. Obviously that dial-size isn't feasible.

So the Bifilar (like the abovementioned other dials) has an hours-usability disadvantage.

Michael Ossipoff — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.8.169.50 (talk) 17:43, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks

Talk:Sundial#Reply_to_Clem.2C_regarding_citations.2C_glossary_violations.2C_construction-manual.2C_etc.; Thanks, a lot of thought and a lot of work! Edmund Patrick confer 10:59, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

WP:Co-op: Presentation at Wikimania 2015

Hey ClemRutter. I've put in a submission for a presentation at Wikimania 2015 called Is Two the Magic Number?: The Co-op and New Editor Engagement through Mentorship. I'll be talking about the state of finding help spaces on en.wiki and how our new mentorship space, The Co-op, factors into that picture. Reviewing will begin soon and I'll need your help to be able to present our work. Please review our proposal and give us feedback. If you would be interested in seeing this presentation, whether you are attending or not, please add your name to the signup at the bottom of the proposal (you do not need to attend Wikimania to express interest in presentations). I, JethroBT drop me a line on behalf of Wikipedia:Co-op.

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Co-op: Mentor profiles and final pilot prep

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Books and Bytes - Issue 10

The Wikipedia Library

Books & Bytes
Issue 10, January-February 2015
by The Interior (talk · contribs), Ocaasi (talk · contribs), Sadads (talk · contribs)

• New donations - ProjectMUSE, Dynamed, Royal Pharmaceutical Society, and Women Writers Online
• New TWL coordinator, conference news, and a new guide and template for archivists
• TWL moves into the new Community Engagement department at the WMF, quarterly review
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Thanks and a typo

Thank you for your cross-sectional map of the Wealden Dome. It's a great image; I've spent minutes trying to explain what it instantly shows.
Typo fixed. Thanks.-- 23:11, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

London 91

Hi, we met at London 91 yesterday - I've added you to my list of Wikipedians I have met. --Redrose64 (talk) 12:33, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Weaving Industry Videos

Hi Clem,

I hope you are well. I stumbled across a couple of Burnley area weaving videos that might interest you:

Oh and this Handloom Weaver 1947-48 --Trappedinburnley (talk) 12:23, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

I have not seen any of them before- yes fascinating- I can think of several articles that will will host them under external links. Crude as they are, they are very complete. My latest effort has been Ellen Hooton, and this has led me to looking for illustrations of a gaited throstle frame and more particularly the Radcliffe Dandy Loom and Dandy loom sheds I can only find 4 images online so I am going to have to resort to paper! But apart from that- I am waiting to be introduced to my second grandchild- he is on his way and has an approximate eta of the 31st of March.-- 22:47, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Invitation

Hello, ClemRutter,

The Editing team is asking for your help with VisualEditor. I am contacting you because you posted to a feedback page for VisualEditor. Please tell them what they need to change to make VisualEditor work well for you. The team has a list of top-priority problems, but they also want to hear about small problems. These problems may make editing less fun, take too much of your time, or be as annoying as a paper cut. The Editing team wants to hear about and try to fix these small things, too.

You can share your thoughts by clicking this link. You may respond to this quick, simple, anonymous survey in your own language. If you take the survey, then you agree your responses may be used in accordance with these terms. This survey is powered by Qualtrics and their use of your information is governed by their privacy policy.

More information (including a translateable list of the questions) is posted on wiki at mw:VisualEditor/Survey 2015. If you have questions, or prefer to respond on-wiki, then please leave a message on the survey's talk page.

Thank you, Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 15:56, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Next meetups in North England

Hello. Would you be interested in attending one of the next wikimeets in the north of England? They will take place in:

Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 20:29, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

The Reclining-Declining section of the Sundial Article

Clem--

Briefly, I agree that the forumulas given in that section are unintelligible to the general reader, and amount to a cookbook-recipe construction-instruction, whose justifiction is unknown to the reader, and which therefore isn't helpful to the reader. I also discussed the section's claim that agreement on the rigt way to make a reclining-declining dial was reached only during the last decade.

By adding my comments to your discussion heading, in the middle of the talk-page, have I buried my comments where they won't be found? Are new comments only noticed if they're under a new heading at the bottom of the talk-page?

By the way, is this the best way to communicate, or does the Wikipedia system have a messaging-system that I should be using instead?

--MichaelOssipoff (talk) 16:31, 2 April 2015 (UTC)MichaelOssipoff

Another question:

Do you have Mayall & Mayall's sundial book? If so, would you post, here (or to the Sundial article's talk page)Mayall & Mayall's Reclining-Declining formulas?

Or, if you prefer, you could post them to _my_ talk-page. But your talk-page, here, is the main place where I'll be looking, because it's probably more convenient for you to post here.

--MichaelOssipoff (talk) 19:47, 3 April 2015 (UTC)Michael Ossipoff

I am on the road- away from my books for the next two weeks. But to answer the question- yes i had one once- and I think it is on the shelf next to my two copies of Waugh. -- 20:50, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply, and thanks for taking the time to reply when you're traveling on vacation.

No hurry, whenever you have the time, after you return.

The reason why I ask: Specifically, as you probably know, the wikipedia Sundial article (under the Reclining-Declining heading) says that Mayall & Mayall, and Rohr as well, published incorrect Reclining-Declining formulas, and that, in fact, it's only during the last decade that there was agreement on the right way to make a Reclining-Declining sundial.

Those statements should be checked, and deleted if incorrect. (Of course, merely being unsupported is enough reason to not allow them at wikipedi, given that they contradict everything previously published. Notability?!).

I like sundials, and I don't like to be contentious about a subject that like. The Internet has too much contentiousness. But incorrect (or even unsupported) statements that contradict everything previously written have no place at wikipedia.

--MichaelOssipoff (talk) 13:44, 4 April 2015 (UTC)MichaelOssipoff

VisualEditor News #2—2015

Did you know?

With Citoid in VisualEditor, you click the 'book with bookmark' icon and paste in the URL for a reliable source:

Citoid looks up the source for you and returns the citation results. Click the green "Insert" button to accept its results and add them to the article:

After inserting the citation, you can change it. Select the reference, and click the "Edit" button in the context menu to make changes.

Since the last newsletter, the Editing Team has fixed many bugs and worked on VisualEditor's performance, the Citoid reference service, and support for languages with complex input requirements. Status reports are posted on Mediawiki.org. The worklist for April through June is available in Phabricator.

The weekly task triage meetings continue to be open to volunteers, each Wednesday at 11:00 (noon) PDT (18:00 UTC). You do not need to attend the meeting to nominate a bug for consideration as a Q4 blocker. Instead, go to Phabricator and "associate" the Editing team's Q4 blocker project with the bug. Learn how to join the meetings and how to nominate bugs at mw:Talk:VisualEditor/Portal.

Recent improvements

VisualEditor is now substantially faster. In many cases, opening the page in VisualEditor is now faster than opening it in the wikitext editor. The new system has improved the code speed by 37% and network speed by almost 40%.

The Editing team is slowly adding auto-fill features for citations. This is currently available only at the French, Italian, and English Wikipedias. The Citoid service takes a URL or DOI for a reliable source, and returns a pre-filled, pre-formatted bibliographic citation. After creating it, you will be able to change or add information to the citation, in the same way that you edit any other pre-existing citation in VisualEditor. Support for ISBNs, PMIDs, and other identifiers is planned. Later, editors will be able to improve precision and reduce the need for manual corrections by contributing to the Citoid service's definitions for each website.

Citoid requires good TemplateData for your citation templates. If you would like to request this feature for your wiki, please post a request in the Citoid project on Phabricator. Include links to the TemplateData for the most important citation templates on your wiki.

The special character inserter has been improved, based upon feedback from active users. After this, VisualEditor was made available to all users of Wikipedias on the Phase 5 list on 30 March. This affected 53 mid-size and smaller Wikipedias, including Afrikaans, Azerbaijani, Breton, Kyrgyz, Macedonian, Mongolian, Tatar, and Welsh.

Work continues to support languages with complex requirements, such as Korean and Japanese. These languages use input method editors ("IMEs”). Recent improvements to cursoring, backspace, and delete behavior will simplify typing in VisualEditor for these users.

The design for the image selection process is now using a "masonry fit" model. Images in the search results are displayed at the same height but at variable widths, similar to bricks of different sizes in a masonry wall, or the "packed" mode in image galleries. This style helps you find the right image by making it easier to see more details in images.

You can now drag and drop categories to re-arrange their order of appearance ​on the page.

The pop-up window that appears when you click on a reference, image, link, or other element, is called the "context menu". It now displays additional useful information, such as the destination of the link or the image's filename. The team has also added an explicit "Edit" button in the context menu, which helps new editors open the tool to change the item.

Invisible templates are marked by a puzzle piece icon so they can be interacted with. Users also will be able to see and edit HTML anchors now in section headings.

Users of the TemplateData GUI editor can now set a string as an optional text for the 'deprecated' property in addition to boolean value, which lets you tell users of the template what they should do instead (T90734).

The special character inserter in VisualEditor will soon use the same special character list as the wikitext editor. Admins at each wiki will also have the option of creating a custom section for frequently used characters at the top of the list. Instructions for customizing the list will be posted at mediawiki.org.

The team is discussing a test of VisualEditor with new users, to see whether they have met their goals of making VisualEditor suitable for those editors. The timing is unknown, but might be relatively soon.

Let's work together

• Can you translate from English into any other language? Please check this list to see whether more interface translations are needed for your language. Contact us to get an account if you want to help!
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• File requests for language-appropriate "Bold" and "Italic" icons for the character formatting menu in Phabricator.

Subscribe, unsubscribe or change the page where this newsletter is delivered at Meta. If you aren't reading this in your favorite language, then please help us with translations! Subscribe to the Translators mailing list or contact us directly, so that we can notify you when the next issue is ready. Thank you!

-Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk), 17:50, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Peak District

Hi there, any chance of cleaning this article up so it can be in WP:OTD on 17 April? Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 13:24, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

sundial

Hi Clem:

You may want to look at the butchery that Michael Ossipoff (?sp) has just done to the Sundial article.

I feel like taking out a contract on that moron.

DOwenWilliams (talk) 22:15, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Hi Dave:I did a lot of correspondence on Michaels talk page see this version and I will do, what I said I would do somewhere around [1] which was to have a look at the issue when I am reunited with my books.

I am now back from doing a Wikipedia tutorial session 280 miles from here in Lancaster and doing quite a bit of photography. I have been logging in, and seen the help you have been offering Michael, but it was pointless for me to join in before I have a clear few hours to spend even to read the comments. I will come back some time tomorrow with a few ideas.

It would be great to organise a meet up sometime. -- 23:51, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Are you 200 miles from Lancaster, in England? I should have been born in Liverpool. but the Germans had put a time-bomb on the roof of the hospital, so my mother did a quick dash to a nursing home in West Kirby, so I was born there. But that was long ago. For the past 40+ years, I've lived here in Canada, so a meet-up would be difficult. Sorry!
I'm going to be busy for the next few days, so I won't be doing much on Wikipedia. I hope, without much confidence, that I will find it wondrously improved when I get back.
Thanks for the thanks.
DOwenWilliams (talk) 02:50, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
About the same time- my father, who had spent 6 years in the peace time RAF, was transferred to Windsor, Ontario to be trained to operate radios, navigation equiptment and fly advanced aircraft- each time being moved on to something more urgent. He missed out on rationing, austerity, bombs and things.
I have two weeks, before I must visit the Lancashire again. At worst, the article will be identical to your last edit- at best it will similar but far less verbose. Keep you posted. -- 07:46, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
Poor guy!
My father was in the RAF, too. He had just qualified as a doctor when war broke out. He volunteered on the first day, and was assigned as a medic on an air station. He spent the whole war on air stations around the UK, and left the RAF with the rank of Flight Lieutenant. The whole time, he never once flew in a plane. They gave him a gun, because some of his patients were German airmen who had been shot down, but they never gave him any bullets to put in it.
I see Michael has done more damage this morning.
DOwenWilliams (talk) 14:40, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Responses from MichaelOssipoff moved to User talk:MichaelOssipoff to keep the conversation in one place.

Hi Clem: I see you and Michael seem to have reached some sort of truce over the declining-reclining sundial. That's good. What else is new? DOwenWilliams (talk) 18:55, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
On the wikifront I have been over on Commons taking, tagging and uploading 300+ photos bbof the scenery around Lancaster University where I was helping at a Editathon with members of the London Mathematics Society. I think the entry requirement is 2 PhDs- which contrasts with teaching sums to 11 to 16 year olds- and Computer Science to bright but over-confident 17yr olds, who have an unshakeable belief that their POV is the only POV. We have a little lull on the Sundial page- I bought the NASS CD of previous articles and I am awaiting its arrival- it should be fun to read- and we'll never be short of a reference again.
A spin off from Lancaster were these two pages- Help:Referencing for beginners/sandbox and Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Mathematics/temp You might like to have a look at them- eventually I'd like to replace the current offerings. Then Real-life continues... -- 21:19, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

Formal mediation has been requested

```The Mediation Committee has received a request for formal mediation of the dispute relating to "Article: Sundial. Topic Section: Reclining-Decllining.". As an editor concerned in this dispute, you are invited to participate in the mediation. Mediation is a voluntary process which resolves a dispute over article content by facilitation, consensus-building, and compromise among the involved editors. After reviewing the request page, the formal mediation policy, and the guide to formal mediation, please indicate in the "party agreement" section whether you agree to participate. Because requests must be responded to by the Mediation Committee within seven days, please respond to the request by 3 May 2015.
```

Discussion relating to the mediation request is welcome at the case talk page. Thank you.
Message delivered by MediationBot (talk) on behalf of the Mediation Committee. 03:55, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

I have declined:

1. Disagree. WP:RFM/G#PRIOR Can I point you to the long conversation I have had with Michael on his talk page where I am attempting to keep the discussion contained. Have a look also at the conversations with User:DOwenWilliams on my talk page, and the conversation he has had with Michael in the Talk:Sundial#« Cadran bifilaire », Why ? and much that follows. None of this suggests that every other method has been explored, which is a precondition for this procedure- it does suggest a degree of impatience, and a request from Michael for two editors to enter into a considerable amount of WP:OR. If the Mediation Committee does wish to get involved so early in the process I am sure that DOwenWilliams and myself will be willing to assist in every way- but in my case after the UK General Election when I will be less occupied in RL.-- 10:49, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

it is not helpful to split the conversation onto another page. The OR is coming on nicely, the CD has arrived, the address handwritten by Fred Sawyer himself. There are twenty years plus of of copies of Compendium- each one will take a month to read!-- 10:49, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

although I am just about aware of the level of work this will generate I agree with you not at this moment accepting mediation. I have only had one contact with this editor ([2].) if I can assist in anyway I will try Edmund Patrick confer 19:02, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

Thank you very very much sir for respond for this I am highly obliged of you and please always keep leading as your pupil. Sturdyankit (talk) 02:10, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

Transfered to editor's talk page

Now on Michaels talk page. Text --108.132.238.27 (talk) 11:41, 26 April 2015 (UTC)MichaelOssipoff

Keeping it all in one place Transfered comments by 108.132.238.27 to (MichaelOssipoff's talk page (UTC)MichaelOssipoff

Thank you very much sir, Let's suppose admin decides No consensus then what happen with my article, Also here are some of Students who won scholarship from Bihar State Shia Wakf Board they are Samsha Khatun and Sadam Hussain having serial no 116378 and 116379 according to http://www.technixindia.com/wakfboard/report-phase2-1011-result.php?page=24 in 2010-11 (2nd phase) Can I add this along with my article's content? Sturdyankit (talk) 12:32, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

Request for mediation rejected

The request for formal mediation concerning Article: Sundial. Topic Section: Reclining-Decllining., to which you were listed as a party, has been declined. To read an explanation by the Mediation Committee for the rejection of this request, see the mediation request page, which will be deleted by an administrator after a reasonable time. Please direct questions relating to this request to the Chairman of the Committee, or to the mailing list. For more information on forms of dispute resolution, other than formal mediation, that are available, see Wikipedia:Dispute resolution.

For the Mediation Committee, TransporterMan (TALK) 13:34, 27 April 2015 (UTC)
(Delivered by MediationBot, on behalf of the Mediation Committee.)

Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. Wikipedia appreciates your help. We noticed though that when you edited Halton-with-Aughton, you added links pointing to the disambiguation pages Coke, Caton and Forges. Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. Read the FAQ • Join us at the DPL WikiProject.

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de:user:ClemRutter/sandkiste

Hallo ClemRutter! Mal eine Frage: arbeitest Du noch am Artikel de:user:ClemRutter/sandkiste? Grüße, Doc Taxon (talk) 13:41, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

Hi ClemRutter! Do you still work on de:user:ClemRutter/sandkiste? Greetings, Doc Taxon (talk) 13:41, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

sunny stuff

Hi Clem:

I'm anticipating the results of the UK election, too. After all, I am still a British citizen. Here in Canada, we've already had one electoral shock this week, when the government of Alberta, which had been conservative for more than 40 years, was dumped down to third place, behind the New Democratic Party (roughly like UK Labour) and the Wild Rose Party, which is a rather primitive right-wing affair. (The wild rose is the provincial flower of Alberta. It grows all over the place there.)

Re the sundial article. I've been doing some edits, which you'll see in the latest version. I think my changes are worth keeping. If you put up your sndbox version, please keep my stuff about the empirical method, and also the small change to the equation of time graph.

Time to wind up my old TV set...

DOwenWilliams (talk) 23:32, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

VisualEditor News #3—2015

Did you know?

The link tool has been re-designed:

There are separate tabs for linking to internal and external pages.

Since the last newsletter, the Editing Team has created new interfaces for the link and citation tools, as well as fixing many bugs and changing some elements of the design. Some of these bugs affected users of VisualEditor on mobile devices. Status reports are posted on Mediawiki.org. The worklist for April through June is available in Phabricator.

A test of VisualEditor's effect on new editors at the English Wikipedia has just completed the first phase. During this test, half of newly registered editors had VisualEditor automatically enabled, and half did not. The main goal of the study is to learn which group was more likely to save an edit and to make productive, unreverted edits. Initial results will be posted at Meta later this month.

Recent improvements

Auto-fill features for citations are available at a few Wikipedias through the citoid service. Citoid takes a URL or DOI for a reliable source, and returns a pre-filled, pre-formatted bibliographic citation. If Citoid is enabled on your wiki, then the design of the citation workflow changed during May. All citations are now created inside a single tool. Inside that tool, choose the tab you want (⧼citoid-citeFromIDDialog-mode-auto⧽, ⧼citoid-citeFromIDDialog-mode-manual⧽, or ⧼citoid-citeFromIDDialog-mode-reuse⧽). The cite button is now labeled with the word "⧼visualeditor-toolbar-cite-label⧽" rather than a book icon, and the autofill citation dialog now has a more meaningful label, "⧼Citoid-citeFromIDDialog-lookup-button⧽", for the submit button.

The link tool has been redesigned based on feedback from Wikipedia editors and user testing. It now has two separate sections: one for links to articles and one for external links. When you select a link, its pop-up context menu shows the name of the linked page, a thumbnail image from the linked page, Wikidata's description, and/or appropriate icons for disambiguation pages, redirect pages and empty pages. Search results have been reduced to the first five pages. Several bugs were fixed, including a dark highlight that appeared over the first match in the link inspector (T98085).

The special character inserter in VisualEditor now uses the same special character list as the wikitext editor. Admins at each wiki can also create a custom section for frequently used characters at the top of the list. Please read the instructions for customizing the list at mediawiki.org. Also, there is now a tooltip to describing each character in the special character inserter (T70425).

Several improvements have been made to templates. When you search for a template to insert, the list of results now contains descriptions of the templates. The parameter list inside the template dialog now remains open after inserting a parameter from the list, so that users don’t need to click on "⧼visualeditor-dialog-transclusion-add-param⧽" each time they want to add another parameter (T95696). The team added a new property for TemplateData, "Example", for template parameters. This optional, translatable property will show up when there is text describing how to use that parameter (T53049).

The design of the main toolbar and several other elements have changed slightly, to be consistent with the MediaWiki theme. In the Vector skin, individual items in the menu are separated visually by pale gray bars. Buttons and menus on the toolbar can now contain both an icon and a text label, rather than just one or the other. This new design feature is being used for the cite button on wikis where the Citoid service is enabled.

The team has released a long-desired improvement to the handling of non-existent images. If a non-existent image is linked in an article, then it is now visible in VisualEditor and can be selected, edited, replaced, or removed.

Let's work together

• The weekly task triage meetings continue to be open to volunteers, each Wednesday at 12:00 (noon) PDT (19:00 UTC). Learn how to join the meetings and how to nominate bugs at mw:Talk:VisualEditor/Portal. You do not need to attend the meeting to nominate a bug for consideration as a Q4 blocker. Instead, go to Phabricator and "associate" the Editing team's Q4 blocker project with the bug.
• If you would like to request the Citoid automatic reference feature for your wiki, please post a request in the Citoid project on Phabricator. Include links to the TemplateData for the most important citation templates on your wiki.

Subscribe, unsubscribe or change the page where this newsletter is delivered at Meta. If you aren't reading this in your favorite language, then please help us with translations! Subscribe to the Translators mailing list or contact us directly, so that we can notify you when the next issue is ready. Thank you! Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 17:31, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:Listed building England

Template:Listed building England has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. PC78 (talk) 17:50, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Science Conference

Hi Clem, this is the Wikipedia Science Conference. Leutha (talk) 18:48, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Co-op Pilot Results & Mentoring

Hey there! The Co-op has been on a hiatus for a bit, but we are planning on opening up shop again soon. When you're able, please read over and respond to this update on our talk page. We have favorable results from our final report regarding the pilot, and we are interested in seeing who is available to mentor when we reopen our space and begin to send out invites again. Thanks, MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 23:16, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

This message was sent by I JethroBT (talk · contribs) via Mass Message. (Opt-out instructions)
To December 2016

London sundial

Hi Clem:

It may be worth mentioning that common sundials such as the London one, of which you included an illustration, actually have two styles, one on each edge of the gnomon. One style is used in the forenoon, the other in the afternoon.

DOwenWilliams (talk) 01:11, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

I have made a slight change to the indicator line giving it two heads. This was a lot more complex than I thought as Inkscape refuses to read the parameter used in the svg to add a curve to a line- even when it was the program that created it!
I haven't changed the text- as I can't think of a change that would be generic enough, if it is more than four words I think it needs to go onto the caption not the diagram. But I remain open to suggestion. Anyone can clone the diagram and add a new text layer if it is really important to them- but they will have to twiddle inkscape.

-- 11:43, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

I've added a couple of sentences to the caption. Another idea might be to write a footnote. (I like footnotes!) DOwenWilliams (talk) 15:17, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. Wikipedia appreciates your help. We noticed though that when you edited London dial, you added links pointing to the disambiguation pages Thomas Wright and Thomas Heath. Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. Read the FAQ • Join us at the DPL WikiProject.

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Bois du Cazier

Dear sir.

My english is poor. Please have a look to my contribution.Cenec (talk) 07:54, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. Wikipedia appreciates your help. We noticed though that when you edited London dial, you added links pointing to the disambiguation pages Silverwork and Henry Sutton. Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. Read the FAQ • Join us at the DPL WikiProject.

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Books and Bytes - Issue 12

The Wikipedia Library

Books & Bytes
Issue 12, May-June 2015
by The Interior (talk · contribs), Ocaasi (talk · contribs), Sadads (talk · contribs), Nikkimaria (talk · contribs)

• New donations - Taylor & Francis, Science, and three new French-language resources
• Expansion into new languages, including French, Finnish, Turkish, and Farsi
• Spotlight: New partners for the Visiting Scholar program
• American Library Association Annual meeting in San Francisco

The Interior 15:23, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

VisualEditor News #4—2015

Did you know?

You can add quotations marks before and after a title or phrase with a single click.

Select the relevant text. Find the correct quotations marks in the special character inserter tool (marked as Ω in the toolbar).

Click the button. VisualEditor will add the quotation marks on either side of the text you selected.

Since the last newsletter, the Editing Team have been working on mobile phone support. They have fixed many bugs and improved language support. They post weekly status reports on mediawiki.org. Their workboard is available in Phabricator. Their current priorities are improving language support and functionality on mobile devices.

Wikimania

The team attended Wikimania 2015 in Mexico City. There they participated in the Hackathon and met with individuals and groups of users. They also made several presentations about VisualEditor and the future of editing.

Following Wikimania, we announced winners for the VisualEditor 2015 Translathon. Our thanks and congratulations to users Halan-tul, Renessaince, जनक राज भट्ट (Janak Bhatta), Vahe Gharakhanyan, Warrakkk, and Eduardogobi.

For interface messages (translated at translatewiki.net), we saw the initiative affecting 42 languages. The average progress in translations across all languages was 56.5% before the translathon, and 78.2% after (+21.7%). In particular, Sakha improved from 12.2% to 94.2%; Brazilian Portuguese went from 50.6% to 100%; Taraškievica went from 44.9% to 85.3%; Doteli went from 1.3% to 41.2%. Also, while 1.7% of the messages were outdated across all languages before the translathon, the percentage dropped to 0.8% afterwards (-0.9%).

For documentation messages (on mediawiki.org), we saw the initiative affecting 24 languages. The average progress in translations across all languages was 26.6% before translathon, and 46.9% after (+20.3%). There were particularly notable achievements for three languages. Armenian improved from 1% to 99%; Swedish, from 21% to 99%, and Brazilian Portuguese, from 34% to 83%. Outdated translations across all languages were reduced from 8.4% before translathon to 4.8% afterwards (-3.6%).

We published some graphs showing the effect of the event on the Translathon page. Thank you to the translators for participating and the translatewiki.net staff for facilitating this initiative.

Recent improvements

Auto-fill features for citations can be enabled on each Wikipedia. The tool uses the citoid service to convert a URL or DOI into a pre-filled, pre-formatted bibliographic citation. You can see an animated GIF of the quick, simple process at mediawiki.org. So far, about a dozen Wikipedias have enabled the auto-citation tool. To enable it for your wiki, follow the instructions at mediawiki.org.

Your wiki can customize the first section of the special character inserter in VisualEditor. Please follow the instructions at mediawiki.org to put the characters you want at the top.

In other changes, if you need to fill in a CAPTCHA and get it wrong, then you can click to get a new one to complete. VisualEditor can now display and edit Vega-based graphs. If you use the Monobook skin, VisualEditor's appearance is now more consistent with other software.

Future changes

On the English Wikipedia, 10% of newly created accounts are now offered both the visual and the wikitext editors. A recent controlled trial showed no significant difference in survival or productivity for new users in the short term. New users with access to VisualEditor were very slightly less likely to produce results that needed reverting. You can learn more about this by watching a video of the July 2015 Wikimedia Research Showcase. The proportion of new accounts with access to both editing environments will be gradually increased over time. Eventually all new users have the choice between the two editing environments.

Let's work together

• Can you read and type in Korean or Japanese? Language engineer David Chan needs people who know which tools people use to type in some languages. If you speak Japanese or Korean, you can help him test support for these languages. Please see the instructions at mw:VisualEditor/IME Testing#What to test if you can help.
• If your wiki would like VisualEditor enabled on another namespace, you can file a request in Phabricator. Please include a link to a community discussion about the requested change.
• Please file requests for language-appropriate "Bold" and "Italic" icons for the styling menu in Phabricator.
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Postpone the Manchester Meetup?

You may want to comment at meta:Talk:Meetup/Manchester/30#Postponement. Yaris678 (talk) 11:36, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Public art lists

I wrote a blog post and am busy on social media and mailing lists, trying to encourage more people to create or contribute to locality-based lists of public art. Can you help, for your part of the world? Please look out for newbie contributions, assist the editors and tidy up as needed. Please help to publicise this drive, too! Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:14, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Event at Clitheroe Castle

Here is the information about the event at Clitheroe Castle Wikipedia:GLAM/Clitheroe Castle Museum. I'll get in touch next week. Jhayward001 (talk) 08:37, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Pont du Gard intro

Clem, I reverted back your revert of my clean-up of the Pont du Gard intro, which I did not undertake lightly. The intro sentence as I came upon it was much too cumbersome and overflowing with geographic and linguistic references. Such aspects can be presented later in an article if necessary. Plus, there is no need to link every single geographic name in a sentence or paragraph; at a certain point it becomes a distraction rather than a help. For example, if readers are curious, they need only follow the Gardon link to learn all about the river's name and geography. And I seriously doubt anyone has dubbed this aqueduct the Pont-du-Gard Bridge in an English reference work before now. I think a dispassionate read of both versions will make my observations clear. Eric talk 19:13, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

@Eric: I am glad you have come back to me. My edit was interrupted by a call to dinner and needed refining. I object to the Gard, being referred to as the Gard river, as the European convention is to but the word river first. In this case the river is the Gardon- the word river is not used. The Pont-du-Gard has always been the Pont-du-Gard in English, and never the Pont-du-Gard Bridge or Pont-du-Gard bridge but this is a better wording than saying (Literally:Gard Bridge). If for nothing else that the du in French is a genitive and must be expressed in English as Bridge of Gard or Gard's Bridge.
The Pont du Gard (Gard Bridge) is an ancient Roman aqueduct bridge *1 that crosses the Gardon River in the south of France *2. Located in near *3 the town of Vers-Pont-du-Gard, the bridge is part of the Nîmes aqueduct, a 50 km-long (31 mi) *4 structure built by the Romans *5 to carry water from a spring at Uzès to the Roman colony of Nemausus (Nîmes)[4] *6 Because the terrain between the two points is hilly, the aqueduct – built mostly underground – took a long, winding route that crossed the gorge of the Gardon, requiring the construction of an aqueduct bridge. Built in the first century AD, the Pont du Gard is the highest of all Roman aqueduct bridges and is, with the Aqueduct of Segovia, one of the *7 best preserved. It was added to UNESCO's list of World Heritage Sites in 1985 because of its historical importance.
• 1 aqueduct bridge is not English- as in English aqueduct has two meanings- a water course and a bridge carrying water Agree; the construction caught my eye initially as odd, but I assumed that the writer was working from a precedent I had yet to encounter. I changed it.
• 2 not specific enough I tend towards a brief general geographic reference for an initial sentence.
• 3 in near Typo, fixed.
• 4 mi non standard abbreviation Didn't initially jump out at me as out of line, so I left it. Now changed; see what you think. I don't always think every distance on wp needs a conversion, and I don't like how those conversion templates apparently can't accommodate proper hyphenation when a distance is expressed as an adjective preceding a noun.
• 5 of course the Romans built a Roman aqueduct Yes. Nixed.
• 6 Because the terrain between the two points is hilly, the aqueduct – built mostly underground – took a long, winding route that crossed the gorge of the Gardon, requiring the construction of an aqueduct bridge. - I probably wrote this but it is awful- the terrain is not hilly- it is a deeply incised valley, formed at the time of the Alpine uplift. Is this the Gorge du Gardon [www.gorgesdugardon.fr/index.php/Géologie-et-Paysages?idpage=12&afficheMenuContextuel=true#6] even though Vers Pont du Gard is a commune in the Grande site sydicat- just a question. Again problem with the term aqueduct bridge (its fine in French pont-aqueduct).
• 7 it is the best preserved but probably needs a reference That sentence didn't strike me as terrible. It seems the Gorges du Gardon is a nature preserve: fr:Gorges_du_Gardon. I tweaked that part--see what you think.
Going back to the question of name- the Gard is a department, the Gard is a French translation of the Occitan word Gardon. Gardon is the river. (look at official publications from the department) Yes this lede does need to be changed- I gave it a shaking but freely admit it can be done better. So, over to you.-- 00:49, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
Hello Clem- I replied to your listed comments in italics above. I agree re the awkwardness of "Gard Bridge"--that struck me at the outset as unnecessary at best. Re the hyphenated "Pont-du-Gard", I've never seen that in English or French. In a brief rummaging through the web, including on fr.wp, I could not find any definitive etymology re Gard/Gardon. Nothing here: fr:Gardon_(rivière) nor on fr:Histoire_du_Gard. Interesting musing here on Etymologie-Occitane.fr Eric talk 13:30, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Meetups in Liverpool and Manchester

Hi there! Do you know that there will be meetups in Liverpool on the 27th of September and in Manchester on the 25th of October?

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Clitheroe Booklets

For the training sessions on the 19th September I have produced these two booklets--comments welcome they will probably be around at the litheroe Castle Museum Edit-a-thon on 26th September.

From the feedback the files have been reworked - these are both usable but I will continue fiddling with the fonts. I need to look at the maths section in the intermediate and write the page on writing templates. Here are the drop box links

-- 10:22, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

-- 20:11, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

Sat 19 Sept

Thanks for the instruction - great fun — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lccrudge (talkcontribs) 11:18, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

hello

Hi Clem this is Katharine Lovejoy

training 19.09.15

Hi Clem Thanks for the morning training. Suzanne

Hi Clem, Thank you for a great course. Here is my user name. Jhayward001 (talk) 11:20, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

Help us improve wikimeets by filling in the UK Wikimeet survey!

Hello! I'm running a survey to identify the best way to notify Wikimedians about upcoming UK wikimeets (informal, in-person social meetings of Wikimedians), and to see if we can improve UK wikimeets to make them accessible and attractive to more editors and readers. All questions are optional, and it will take about 10 minutes to complete. Please fill it in at:

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Thanks! Mike Peel (talk) 17:05, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

Mills in Clitheroe

Hi Clem, I've been busy tracing the various mills in Clitheroe. A couple of issues remain, one being Claremont Mill, I can find no trace and am thinking that it is confused for Brewery Mill. Also I've removed Greenacre Mill to leave Holmes Mill as I'm fairly sure that they are one and the same. I don't have access to the Ashmore source used in List of mills in Lancashire maybe it sheds more light? --Trappedinburnley (talk) 18:23, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

I'll see you on Saturday- but in the meantime we could knock together a List of mills in Clitheroe article on the lines of List of mills in Preston (oops that needs urgently improving!). Ashmore is at the moment in Rochester and I am in Newcastle. I was just browsing through 'Mill Trutex Clitheroe' which is Jubilee Mill, I found a Westmorland Gazette ref: http://www.thewestmorlandgazette.co.uk/news/10333588.Clitheroe_school_uniform_firm_Trutex_takes_over_Rochdale_company/ . Whether it is Thornber's Mill, Holmes or Greenacre it does seem to be the same. The mills seem to have a Builder Name, A location name or/and Occupants name. I think that Claremont could be an occupant- I'll keep searching. But look at Claremont Ave, and Claremont Drive, 53.865525, -2.384059. Also this Carlton Mill -- 19:44, 20 September 2015 (UTC)b
List of Mills in Clitheroe seems a good idea, we have taken over the project page somewhat. I was thinking Trutex deserved a mention on the Clitheroe article, but I had no idea it is so old. They started building Claremont Ave after WWII. MARIO has aerial imagery from that period, nothing much there except Goosebutts Farm. However Claremont House survives, on Pendle Rd at the junction with Goosebutts Ln. In 1890 it was separated from Brewery Mill by a pond, now filled-in under Highmoor Park (road). From the view of the Castle, Carlton Mill seems to have been Victoria Mill, which I had missed.--Trappedinburnley (talk) 11:22, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

Books and Bytes - Issue 13

The Wikipedia Library

Books & Bytes
Issue 13, August-September 2015
by The Interior (talk · contribs), Ocaasi (talk · contribs), Sadads (talk · contribs), Nikkimaria (talk · contribs)

• New donations - EBSCO, IMF, more newspaper archives, and Arabic resources
• Expansion into new languages, including Viet and Catalan
• Spotlight: Elsevier partnership garners controversy, dialogue
• Conferences: PKP, IFLA, upcoming events

The Interior via MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 16:29, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

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Draft:Jules Wright

I have been asked to advise on this- can I open this invitation. I have never encountered this procedure before- the subject seems notable ( Obits- in 3 newspapers +Radio 4)- a well referenced article being criticised for being too chummy. A bio about a notable women? What am I missing? -- 08:40, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

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October 2015

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• a welt, adecorative strip of soft leathe,r would be nailed over to conceal the joint. Fasteners (clasps, eyes or buttons would go on and finally a protective toe-tin.<ref> Interpretive leaflet

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Clog

Hello ClemRutter,

Thank you for adding an extensive section Manufacturing English Clogs at the page clog. However, I removed it. This because there exist a page for English Clogs, which you can find here: Clog (British). The page Clog is an introduction page for clogs worldwide. The gallery with pictures gives links to national clogs. So also to English clog. Thanks again for your interest. Kind regards, Berkh (talk) 05:44, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

VisualEditor News #5—2015

Did you know?
You can use the visual editor on smartphones and tablets.

Click the pencil icon to open the editor for a page. Inside that, use the gear menu in the upper right corner to "Switch to visual editing".

The editing button will remember which editing environment you used last time, and give you the same one next time. The desktop site will be switching to a system similar to this one in the coming months.

Since the last newsletter, the VisualEditor Team has fixed many bugs, added new features, and made some small design changes. They post weekly status reports on mediawiki.org. Their workboard is available in Phabricator. Their current priorities are improving support for languages like Japanese and Arabic, making it easier to edit on mobile devices, and providing rich-media tools for formulæ, charts, galleries and uploading.

Recent improvements

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On the English Wikipedia, the visual editor is now automatically available to anyone who creates an account. The preference switch was moved to the normal location, under Special:Preferences.

Future changes

You will soon be able to switch from the wikitext to the visual editor after you start editing. (T49779) Previously, you could only switch from the visual editor to the wikitext editor. Bi-directional switching will make possible a single edit tab. (T102398) This project will combine the "Edit" and "Edit source" tabs into a single "Edit" tab, similar to the system already used on the mobile website. The "Edit" tab will open whichever editing environment you used last time.

Let's work together

Whatamidoing (WMF) 04:16, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

SFN

Thanks for knocking the citations on the clogs page into shape. I see you had fun with the Owen references. The normal way of doing it is documented at Template:Sfn#More than one work in a year and simply consists of adding a lowercase letter to the year. However, your use of {{SfnRef}} is fine as an alternative. Thanks once again, Martin of Sheffield (talk) 09:43, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

Its quite quick if you take the copy to a texteditor (pluma, gedit) and do global replace. I am not up to speed with citation- mainly using the cite templates- 2012a has a few limitation when dealing with older newbies- but do change it if you wish. Are you going to have a go at Clog dance this weekend. In my idle hours I am looking for a reference to support User:Berkh assertion on Clog that will take some lateral thinking. -- 10:15, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your help and work on the Clog (British) page, sir. Berkh (talk) 10:55, 31 October 2015 (UTC).

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Sundial

Hello. Why did you remove the picture from the article? You said that the picture adds nothing to the article, even though it is a picture of a sundial, if nothing it helps illustrate the article better. VS6507 (talk) 09:26, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for showing an interest- In the Commons:Vertical sundials there are 1,243 images, and further sub- categories. Your dial is a simple modern dial, of a south west vertical declining (afternoon dial) The dial vertical points to 12.45- that is an offset of 45mins time- or about 12 degrees east. The web site locates the centre at 44° 14’ 50’’ N & 19° 55’ 50’’ E which is an offset of 20 degrees- or 80mins. This is a little puzzling. This dial appears to have a sub-style of zero- so as SD= arctan (sin d/tam φ) this seems to be a co-incidence. Neither this image or the article Petnica Science Center is geotagged.
Looking at the image, the motto is fuzzy and to the right there is wasted space. The image needs to be cropped.
As the motto says Sumnjaj da bi razumeo- and this has led to a useful discussion. -- 12:28, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for the useful comments. The image is not the best quality one; I might take a better shot in the future.
According to Google, Petnica Center is probably located at 44.246540=44° 14' 48'' N, 19.930834=19° 55' 51'' E [3], so that's quite similar to your coordinates. I think we can use this for geotagging. This dial's vertical is pointed to 1, and Aldeburgh is close to 1st meridian east, but this doesn't seem to be the case with the sundial in Petnica. Frankly, I don't know much about trigonometry or math for that matter, I'd need more studying in that field... I've contacted the Center, though, asking them if they can tell me more about this type of dial. I'll let you know if they reply.
As for cropping, I could do that tomorrow. Regards, Alex (talk) 19:57, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

So, can you tell me what else is needed to include this pic in the page? Alex (talk) 22:39, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

Clitheroe Booklets (2)

For the training sessions I have produced these three booklets--comments welcome- They were used at the

From the feedback the files have been reworked - I will continue fiddling with them. I need to look at the maths section in the intermediate and write the page on writing templates. Here are the drop box links

-- 21:48, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

Clog (British)

Hi Clem. Is there a reason for adding Atkinson and Cahill to external links? Both pages are given in the references section above. I'd revert, but someone of your standing probably does have a good reason. Regards, Martin of Sheffield (talk) 11:53, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

Yes. Cahill for balance (weak)but Atkinson- it is his five videos this Rough cutting this Hollowing this Uppers this Clasps Clog and Pattern) I am after. He has done them using Vimeo, and I can't find a clear CC-BY-SA statement- which possibly was an oversight- he comments a lot on Clogging videos for instance NWFilm archive ([https://vimeo.com/album/3066221/video/107803204 this). All those videos I would like to see on commons--but before that I think we need to have them clearly placed- then someone can phone and ask him whether he is willing to put a CC-BY-SA tag on them so we can go the copy them over. Walkley's are not using traditional techniques but use machines- not the wood or the technique described.
I am searching for illustrations of Blockers, Hollowers etc- Cahill has one, Chris Brady this but copyright unclear.And Now, Stock knife has an illustration- but it is not of a blocker-goodness knows what it is. So that is the evil plan.
Think is a about time to do the Clog dancing split. More later this week. -- 12:58, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
I'm not querying the usefulness of Atkison & Cahill, just whether the same page needs to be referenced in two succeeding sections? I've been a bit busy recently so I haven't taken up your earlier challenge. If you want to run with it, good luck! Martin of Sheffield (talk) 13:27, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
I've just seen the extra Atkinson videos, so fair enough, comment withdrawn. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 13:52, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
I rely on you- to challenge my mistakes. Just too bad that you don't do the London meet-up or I can buy you a pint. -- 14:21, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
This is the state of Clog dancing draft It is still littered with copyvios which I am slowly culling but I think the structure is right. I am minded to redirect Clog-dancing to a new page Clog dancing as I can't see the logic of the dash. Any thoughts? -- 22:05, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
Hi Clem. I've had a look at the draft and it seems fine. Possibly the lead is a bit long and repeats too much detail from the history section, but that can be better précised once the body has been knocked into shape. Keep up the good work! I might try to get to a London meetup, but at the moment family life is a bit hectic (2 teenage sons) and London is a pain to get to these days! Martin of Sheffield (talk) 09:35, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Hello ClemRutter, The videos are very interesting. I further searched a bit on Clitheroe Castle Museum and found out there is an exposition of the work of a local retired traditional clog maker. I was wondering if there is also a permanent collection of (international) clogs? Kind regards, Berkh (talk) 19:31, 12 November 2015 (UTC).

Sadly, not yet- the aim of the museum was to represent aspects of local life- (auf Deutsch- Es is heute nur ein Heimats museum.) Send me an email and we can talk more freely. Clem.-- 19:55, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
Hello ClemRutter, I am searching for the email option, but I can not find it. Kind regards, Berkh (talk) 09:48, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
User page- Tools - 5th option down or here ( I am off out with my granddaughter now- till this evening) -- 10:15, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

A note: Dutch clog dancing, or klompendansen is hardly existing. If it really existed (organised) at all. I seems more something that in the past happened spontaneous. I can't remember I have seen it for real. Klompendansen as an expression is on the other hand well known. Putting on klompen and a traditional dress is more something for Dutch emigrants in Holland, Michigan, USA. Pictures of it there seem to me a hodgepodge of traditional clothing from the West of the Netherlands. The clothing you only see in Volendam and Alkmaar. What tourists see and associate with Holland. Clothing in the North, East and South is different. Kind regards, Berkh (talk) 19:54, 12 November 2015 (UTC).

I take that on board-- 20:09, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

Public housing in the United Kingdom

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Audio in Taxobox

FYI. Cheers, Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:53, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Terraced housing

Hi. I'd been thinking of doing a content fork of Terraced house for some time, after I explained to my (American) partner what a typical 3-up 2-down terraced house was like. I started Draft:Terraced houses in the United Kingdom, thinking there were no other comparable articles, then came across Byelaw terraced house which you also started recently. We probably need to merge the two articles together, as the one I started is wider in scope and covers all terraces, rather than just the stereotypical Victorian ones. How do you think we should proceed? Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 15:44, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

Hi - great to hear from you. Two months ago I would have agreed- I wrote the Byelaw terraced house article in frustration at finding a term I hadn't heard before which didn't have a WP article. I also saw a problem with Council house- but a with little brute force, I forked it into Council House and Public housing in the United Kingdom. The source material is incredible rich and my thoughts are changing on a daily basis. And there is great cross over.
So with my hidden agenda of total world domination before Xmas- I think we should focus Draft:Terraced houses in the United Kingdom as the overview article with Byelaw terraced housing as a more specific child article, along with ones on Georgian terraces, London terraces with mews, Packed earth floor back-to-backs Tenements.
• "The History of Council Housing". The History of Council Housing. University of the West of England. Retrieved 19 November 2015. is a great source
RW Brunskill, has written many articles on pre- 1900 vernacular building types- I have several; but haven 't drilled down to find much on council housing or privately built terraces. Time factor.
My thoughts were that council house, should be mainly about the bricks and mortar- ground plans elevations etc. The designed changed radically from 1910 to 1960, when we had the tower block interlude. Public housing in the United Kingdom should take the housing unit as a commodity and explain the philosophy, sociology and politics of publically provided units- I haven't started to shape that yet- the different sections between the two articles will link like the rungs of a ladder. My interest started from the physical bricks and mortar but there are so many spin offs.
Back to the humble terrace- you can date a Byelaw house by its feature- for instance the lintels over the windows- starting with the brick lintels that key into the one brick solid walls at 70 degree angle- the cast stone replacements that key in at 70, the cast stone flat lintels that rest on 9" footings and disperse the force vertically. Concrete with stone facings- steel with stone or brick facings. etc This needs expanding. Plumbing evolution, the acceptance of water closet within the house (so unhygenic- it will never catch on), the change from scullery to kitchen... so the byelaw article is resting until I have time to reference and add these details. It has the potential to become massive. This was a period when planning and building control were becoming established- many of these houses were not designed by an architect, but bought from a pattern book that the builder maintained. (still haven't found one) Architectural practices were involved in estate layout (I think)
Parkinson-Bailey Parkinson-Bailey, John J. (2000). Manchester: an Architectural History. Manchester: Manchester University Press. ISBN 0-7190-5606-3. has a great chapter on Housing in the Nineteenth Century which has two good quotes about the working classes: ..there is no great hardship for people of this class to share a scullery with another family; they have for the most part been doing this most of their lives... This and UWE are good sources for an article on Pre 1875 urban terraced houses. I am now looking for material for Interwar terraced houses. It seems to be out there just uncategorised.
More later- I have been interrupted again. -- 18:32, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
I've moved the draft article to mainspace, so it's now at Terraced houses in the United Kingdom, and added some more information from that UWE source. I had a look at some of the other articles on that website as well. The article is now about 1350 words, which is a reasonable introduction to a topic and a suitable spin-off from the main Terraced house article, so I think we should be able to accommodate this topic fairly well. I think the next thing to look at is the various types of estates that spring up in the 19th century, and why - I know all about the terraces in South Wales because my grandparents lived there and it's one of the best surviving examples of basic terraced housing in the entire country, but I'd like to know more about why there are large amounts of uninhabited terraces in Liverpool and Greater Manchester and what exactly caused it to happen. There was that episode of DIY SOS recently where a team of people banded together to completely restore a street.
Part of the motivation to write about this topic is trying to find out more about various memories I have, such as wondering why the house I used to live in, a 1900s terrace, looked identical to all the others in the street, except for the downstairs bathrooms, which had all been retro-fitted individually in completely different styles depending on who did it. Why are typical Victorian or Edwardian terrace houses basically all the same design with variations? And why are pairs of terraces that still have the original finish on them named "<name> villas"? (random example found on StreetView) And how and when did electricity, running water and (ultimately) central heating get retrofitted into all of them? Questions, questions. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 22:35, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
With gross unreferenced generalisations-- Jobs moved to the towns- Manchester, Leeds, South East London, round the mills, foundries and shipyards and factories. Economic growth was constrained by the number of labourers you could get. Children from the workhouses were cheap but even then you had to house them within walking distance of the factory gate. You needed tenements or houses. Maximum density was achieved in back-t--backs or round courtyards- the earthcloset of privies were at the end of the street, disease and pollution killed of the labourers faster than you could replace them.

Suggestion Hi Clem Thanks for your message to-day. I agree with you. It would be very nice to have an infobox containing the relevant facts on the artist and an image that encapsulates the artists style of painting.(snowpatrol 20:18, 21 November 2015 (UTC)) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Seascaper (talkcontribs)

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===Patrick Hennessy(painter)

To clear up the confusion regarding the Irish Census.John Hennessy(Patricks father)being in the army was stationed at Athlone(Westmeath)in 1911 along with his wife Bridget,son Dennis and daughter Bridget.To verify the entry further please see Dundee Courier 1/5/37.Marriage entry:Miss Brida Hennessy-eldest daughter of the late sergeant major J.Hennessy-Leinster Regiment and of Mrs Duncan,9 bridge Streetsnowpatrol 15:04, 24 November 2015 (UTC). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Seascaper (talkcontribs)

Lancashire GLAM

Hi Clem, how's it going? Thanks for posting this, I was aware that funding cuts where likely, but this is a shock. I'm particularly worried about QSM, as it seems so much would have to be done so quickly to save it. I believe there is an Christmas event at Helmshore on Saturday. Not my usual scene but I think I'm going to pop down and see what people are thinking about the future.

You may have noticed that I've not been around for a while, but I have continued with Clitheroe Castle offline, time permitting, and merged it back in the other day. It has been hard work, as it turns out that just about everything about its history is disputed, especially its origin. I've sill got a few bits to tidy-up, one being the referencing on your geology section. Where you aware that you haven't actually ref'd the Kabrna book that you added to the Bibliography? I'm currently in two minds whether to put it through the GA process in the future. Trappedinburnley (talk) 20:04, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

I've been distracted. Without going into the gory details, its been dicky birds at the British Library, and a daughter moving house to Nottingham. So, I have looked at Kabrna again and realised why I put him down.
As I understand it- the baserock of 838 m of Chatburn limestone was deposited in flat shallow (75-100m) warm falling seas seas about 360 MA (milions of years)[1] . About 351MA it tilted and the sea level increased and this marked the start of the Clitheroe limestones (both in the Bowland High group- of the western european Tornnaisian stage of Carboniferous [2] )
The mud mounds were thought by Tiddeman (1889) & Parkinson to be mound like accumulations of biogenic material[3] Vaughan (1916) recognised the fossil content was the same as in the Waulsortian limestones/mudstones in Belgian, in the 50s it was found that the mounds did not have the skeletal frameworks created by living organisms- so it was not a reef. They were created by lime mud, flowing in from elsewhere Lees(2006) [4]. The clue was looking at the Crinoids.
In 1972 Miller and Grayson described the mudmound having a core or bank bed. This developed in a low energy system and could be a stack of mounds. They are surrounded by thick bedded looser flank beds deposited in more turbulent waters--these merge into flat deposited inter-bank beds which can also occur in non Waulsortian conditions. [5]
Wallsortian mudmounds occur in two layers in the Clitheroe Limestone, the Coplow Limestone Member, and again in the Bellman Limestone Member which is upto 800m deep. Clitheroe castle is a Bellman member Wallsortian mudmound [6] This is around 346.3 MA. The sea-level was falling leaving an unconformity, and the base platform was fracturing. We ane entering the Viséan (Craven Group). These formation would be further fractured by the varican orogeny [7]
There are also a couple references on [8]

References

1. ^ Kabrna 2011, pp. 16–19.
2. ^ Kabrna 2011, p. 11.
3. ^ Kabrna 2011, pp. 19, 10.
4. ^ Kabrna 2011, p. 20.
5. ^ Kabrna 2011, p. 22.
6. ^ Kabrna 2011, p. 27.
7. ^ Kabrna 2011, p. 49.
8. ^ Kabrna 2011, p. 165.

Clitheroe Castle looks very good-

And to QSM and Helmshore- my thoughts are secure the mill by forming a single issue trust, buying it for a pound, and get Museum of Science and Industry to 'adopt it' and pay to run it , using European money to establish a world heritage site- or partner with Tuchfabrik Müller to form a European ring of Textile History. To save them coffee mornings wont be enough. LCC Museums officers probably have several viable ideas but need to gauge the professional support they can get locally- so lobby to establish management committee so organisations have someone to talk to. I know it sounds impossible- PS Medway Queen is still progressing- they has a lot of support from the Boilermakers Union. I am an email away -if I can be of any use. 23:24, 26 November 2015 (UTC)