User talk:Ceoil

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Light and friendship for the paths ahead

Ron Hardy KilldozerMiss You Long Outtake 1978 Dolly Parton Linda Ronstadt Emmylou HarrisLSD - Process 2Nominal[horses my indie band more ceoil on bass[1], 80s London 1970s Glasgow

FAR for Sex Pistols[edit]

Not going to give you the template on this one - was basing the FAR off your concerns from 2021 about "excitable language and bloat". I'm sure Nikkimaria & Co. will give you as much time as you want if you would like to work on it, just thought I'd get the ball rolling. I'll be basically useless at content work on this one - the closest to punk music I ever listen to is Ball and Chain (Social Distortion song) and I do some of my editing on a work computer whose filtering software would probably report me to IT if I spend too much time on something with that title. Hog Farm Talk 00:42, 27 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


I'm having a go at improving the Picts article... illustrative images were on the list of things to do, I've started a talk topic on the article re Religion, prompted by the addition and removal of the Columba pic. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 18:10, 25 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Yes have been watching. I'm thinking about starting a stand alone articLe on Pictish art, along the lines of Insular art. I have quite a few book sources that discusses stones and (individual) brooches, and see there is quite a lot of similar on JSTOR. But am unsure. Should it be a sub-section within Insular art? Ceoil (talk) 18:19, 25 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Do you have the George and Isabel Henderson book? It's amazing for general Pictish art, and the book by Iain Fraser is by far the best on stones. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 18:24, 25 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I have the Henderson's book, but not Fraser. Luckily have birthday coming up so will ask the mrs. Also have Youngs, "The Work of Angels: Masterpieces of Celtic Metalwork, 6th—9th centuries AD", two early medieval surverys by Rachel Moss, and a bunch of anthologies of the proceeding from the international conferences on insular art. ps, if you have any sources or pointers to expand on Insular_crozier#Scottish, would be very happy indeed (section is short, but took many many hours to build, and obviously is still only scratching surface). Ceoil (talk) 18:38, 25 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Nothing particularly on croziers... the Hendersons may provide a hint on this regarding the flower symbol on the Dunnichen Stone which they say may "originate in the design for a pole top". Catfish Jim and the soapdish 18:54, 25 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Ping Johnbod. Ceoil (talk) 18:20, 25 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
No, best by itself I think. The expensive Henderson book seems to be much the best source. Johnbod (talk) 03:52, 27 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I'm working on the history section at the moment... not that you would have noticed! I've been putting together a map of the "tribes" listed by Ptolemy in my sandbox. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 10:37, 27 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Pictish Kingdoms
Dál Riata
Pictish and neighbouring territories, c.7th century CE.
Comparison of the distribution of Pictish symbol stones and cross slabs (top) with the distribution of the place name element pit-.

I've prepared a new map of Pictish territories to go into the article (looks very simple, but was a fair bit of work), along with an old map of stone distributions that I made a few years ago. What do you think? Any improvements that could be made? Catfish Jim and the soapdish 10:33, 14 April 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Looks great to me - you could make it more compact by putting the Shetlands in a box, & plonking that in an empty bit of sea to the south. Johnbod (talk) 13:02, 14 April 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Agree, looks great, and a huge improvement. Ceoil (talk) 20:46, 14 April 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I don't know if you ever have moments where you start a project and a few hours in, really regret having started? This took far longer than I had intended. It's not as complete as it maybe will be in future (there are recorded examples that have since dropped the pit in favour of Gaelic bal), but this will do for now. Thought I would combine it with the Pictish symbol stone map for a new section on Geography... thoughts on formatting? I'm going to box out Shetland but am unsure as to whether to present them both as relief maps or political, whether to use the Pictland map or save that just for the kingdoms... Catfish Jim and the soapdish 18:20, 27 April 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Yes I do know, only to my shame. You strike me as a trooper though, and although the road was hard and woeful..the result is really great and will stand, thank you v. much, you troubles will be rewarded in heaven if not here :) Ceoil (talk) 00:55, 28 April 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I've removed the raw data from here and replaced it with the finished version. I've stuck with relief maps for both. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 12:01, 28 April 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
That's some serious piece of work. Well done. Ceoil (talk) 00:28, 29 April 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Working on a couple more possibilities before inculding it... "Pit-" is such a good fit in terms of correlation with the stones, it certainly has a P-Celtic origin, and it is called a Pictish place name element in certain books, but it's clear that most placenames containing it were coined later than the Pictish period. It was "borrowed" by later Gaelic speakers in the previously Pictish speaking region. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 12:50, 13 May 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Auld Lang Syne[edit]

Hi. I can do some light cheerleading and stuff, but pleased be warned that I am a thin sliver of my former Gryphon self. The mere thought... and here I am not exaggerating... of the fetid slime I had to swim through in the past makes me feel as if earth's gravity had nearly doubled, and its skies are all grim and gray.Lingzhi.Renascence (talk) 00:24, 3 April 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Anytime anywhere to work with you Ling. I see Flower could do with your help on perennial stuff on the famine talk. Ceoil (talk) 00:51, 3 April 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Animals underfoot[edit]

Hi, saw this and immediately thought of you and that tomb

John de Pitchford

ϢereSpielChequers 08:21, 14 April 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Oh wow, in wood and he died in 1285, thats very early! Very tempted to divert to researching the Pitchford Estate! Ceoil (talk) 00:30, 15 April 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thought you might like that, I've categorised a huge number of photos from English churches on Commons, and this struck me as an unusual survival of prereformation woodcarving ϢereSpielChequers 11:18, 15 April 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Its way earlier than what I've been reading about, and interesting in that its so formative for later styles (the niches are already in place). That the wood has survived for 700 odd years is really something. Ceoil (talk) 11:21, 15 April 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Tomb at St Edith, Eaton
I've just looked it up in Pevsner's book on Shropshire, two short mentions, "well preserved" "7' long" and one of two late 13th century oaken effigies in the county. Definitely something to come back to after your celtic thing. Not sure whether we should be looking at an article on that monument or the general topic of Oaken effigies from medieval England. the other 13th century one in Shropshire is at Berrington, but we don't currently have any internal shots of Media related to All Saints Church, Berrington at Wikimedia Commons the geograph has some of the really interesting font but not the effigy. There's also a 14th century effigy at St Edith's which I suspect is File:St Edith, Eaton - Effigy - - 2246215.jpg (no dog or lion underfoot and the bier looks Victorian to me). ϢereSpielChequers 11:47, 15 April 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
well now you have me hooked. The simplicity of the St Edith tomb and that little is known...line and sinker. Ceoil (talk) 14:15, 15 April 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This takes me back... I remember being terrified by the tomb of The Wolf of Badenoch when taken to Dunkeld Cathedral as a small child. Not because he was a scary person (he was) but because they turned him into stone along with his pet dog which they put by his feet. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 14:26, 15 April 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Nice Jim, into my top 20 the charmingly named tomb of The Wolf of Badenoc goes. I would have been terrified also, in fact...[gulp!!] Ceoil (talk) 22:18, 15 April 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Excuse me for butting in, but there is certainly something that can be written here. I think a key piece of research here is a 1909 paper by Alfred Cooper Fryer in Archaeologia, on "Wooden Monumental Effigies in England and Wales". [2] And a revised version of that paper from 1924. More recently, there is a nice doctoral dissertation (Proefschrift) on "Early Secular Effigies in England" from the Thirteenth Century here: [3] That includes a list of 213 examples, with images, several of which are both early with either effigy or tomb/box or both in wood. We have images of most (see below), many look to be in surprisingly good condition given their age. Mostly lions at their feet, I think, not dogs. Only three have the original wooden box - Pitchford, Westminster, and Salisbury. I've not included Pitchford again below, and we don't seem to have images for two in St Mary's, Woodford, Northamptonshire.[4]

The tomb of William de Valence clearly shows the early use of blank arcades as decoration, that could be filled in by "weepers" in later examples. See the discussion on p.29. We don't have a good image of the extraordinary canopied tomb of Aymer de Valence at Westminster, which is said to be the earliest example of "weepers" in England.[5] Theramin (talk) 00:15, 16 April 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Aymer de Valence
I hope to take my camera to the Abbey this year and I'll put Aymer on my list, but I think it might be too close to the High Altar. There has to be a reason why we don't have any photos of that specific monument considering how much we have from the Abbey. The lion v dog issue does remind me of the debate about the unsympathetic restoration of that part of Phillipe de Pot's monument. ϢereSpielChequers 08:18, 17 April 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Dog or lion?

Looking at the Wolf of Badenoch's "dog" it does appear to have a mane... Catfish Jim and the soapdish 09:54, 17 April 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Have made a start on expanding Pitchford based on sources provided by Theramin, but there is a lot more would like to dig into. Excellent research as always. Ceoil (talk) 21:55, 18 April 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

You are welcome. Impressed with your find of the 1924 updated version of the Fryer article at Happy editing. Theramin (talk) 00:21, 23 April 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks but as usual am following your lead. I'm trying to think of an umbrella article to bring these together, but coming up with naught. Tomb Sculptures from the Court of Burgundy is obvious and catchy for the other side, but for English examples, dunno. Have always been an anglophile and am besotted by the images you provided, but don't want to get drawn into adding burial foot-notes to the bios of minor knights that nobody will ever read. Ceoil (talk) 00:50, 24 April 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Er, something like Wooden tomb effigies in medieval England? Theramin (talk) 00:58, 25 April 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Ceoil, you and I have both worked on Tomb effigy, which could do with plenty of expansion. It averages 56 views pd, which isn't too bad. Myself, I'd sooner keep stone, alabaster & wood in the same article, as the format & style seem essentially the same. But sections on the various materials, certainly - there's stuff at Nottingham alabaster. In the later Middle Ages at least the British & French styles seem pretty similar, so a Euro-wide article is probably best until it is a lot bigger. Tomb monument and Wall tomb both go to Funerary art at present. Johnbod (talk) 03:10, 25 April 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thanks :) Needs an iconography section! Theramin would deeply appreciate if you could suggest starting points on the Early modern section (which is outside my area). Ceoil (talk) 23:48, 27 April 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hi @Ceoil! I hope you're staying well. Since you're listed as one of the FA mentors and your interests align with the topic, I was hoping to hear your thoughts on Henryk Stażewski. I've reached out to Gerda Arendt who is busy with other reviews and not a specialist in WP:VISUALARTS; she said the structure looks fine but that I would benefit from someone specializing in the general subject area. I have never gone through FA before, though I think the article is in very good shape and would really appreciate your feedback, if you have the time and energy, before moving forward. Thank you very much! Ppt91talk 19:16, 16 April 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hi @Ppt91, still reading through but first impression is that its excellent. Am absorbed; will finish reading a few days and post any comments on talk. Unfortunately as most of the sources are in Polish I wont be able to do spot check on accuracy, but its possible to judge the weight of the art historians you are using. Ceoil (talk) 23:10, 18 April 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Ceoil It's so kind of you to take a closer look at the article and I really appreciate your note! In terms of literature, you're absolutely right; a lot of it is in Polish (Ladnowska's catalogue from 1995 is still the definitive source in regard to his biography, for example) though there has been some good recent scholarship in English which I've tried to include as much as possible; I'm also going to add another peer-reviewed article from Archives of American Art that just came out this spring. Would you say, overall, that it'd might be sufficient to submit for FAC? Again, many thanks for your time. Ppt91talk 14:27, 20 April 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Ppt91, its certainly good enough, well done :), but your not going to be able to keep that many fair use images, so be prepared, early, to have to cut a few; it might be best to cut now and limit to those that have a few sentences in the article body. If you fight a loosing battle early on Fair Use, it wont give a good impression for later reviewers. Its likely it will be Nikkimaria that first points this out; she's sympathetic, widely respected and sound out, but expert and not somebody I would argue with :) (scissors sound unfortunately).

Best of luck with it otherwise! Will take a more in-depth look in a week or so. Re images, Relief nr. 18, 1967 & White Grey Relief 2, 1962 would be the ones would battle to save. But then again, what do I know [shrug]. Ceoil (talk) 00:01, 22 April 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Ceoil This is tremendously helpful, especially in regard to images which is something I'm definitely glad to know ahead of time. I tend to overdo the visuals and I know fair use can be a problem, so will heed your advice. Thanks again for taking the time to do this. Your input and your sound advice are always greatly appreciated. :) Ppt91talk 21:12, 22 April 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

File:Hilda Doolittle, later years.jpeg listed for discussion[edit]


A file that you uploaded or altered, File:Hilda Doolittle, later years.jpeg, has been listed at Wikipedia:Files for discussion. Please see the discussion to see why it has been listed (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry). Feel free to add your opinion on the matter below the nomination. Thank you. ―Justin (koavf)TCM 05:38, 27 April 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

FAR for Henry Moore[edit]

I have nominated Henry Moore for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets the featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" in regards to the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Z1720 (talk) 15:59, 30 April 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

May thanks[edit]

May songs
Broad apple tree towards forest, Ehrenbach.jpg
my story today

Thank you for improving articles in May, and helping and explaining. - I had a good story on coronation day: the Te Deum we sang that day. And the following day we sang it for the composer ;)

I nominated Soňa Červená for GA just to give her a bit more exposure, and I took some pics of bright scenery - click on songs. -- Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:57, 20 May 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Gerda, of the reasons I like seeing you name is it often means new to me music - today I discovered Peter Reulein's Te Deum[6] so its a happy day:) Ceoil (talk) 17:12, 21 May 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
thanks, that is exactly what I like to hear! - today's story though is about an artist, + a cantata for the Sunday - more pics to come of a lovely day, but perhaps tomorrow --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:59, 21 May 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
keep them coming! Ceoil (talk) 19:34, 21 May 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
ps, will be keeping an eye on the Soňa Červená page, listening now :):) Ceoil (talk) 19:40, 21 May 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thank you! - Pentecost was full of music, and my story today is that 300 years ago today, Bach became Thomaskantor, with BWV 75, writing music history. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:33, 30 May 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

June songs[edit]

June songs
Margeritenwiese, Eschenhahn.jpg
my story today

I like today's Main page, and here's why ;) -- Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:37, 2 June 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]