Template talk:Infobox legislative election

Incoming and Outgoing Members

Could we have the incoming and outgoing members parametres from the "Infobox election" temp. added to this one please, as it isn't always clearly expressed on election pages about them. ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 13:20, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

No. It's unnecessary clutter and can be linked elsewhere in the article if needed. Number 57 13:41, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

Okay. ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 13:42, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

It is one of the many lack of this infobox, I agree with ValenciaThunderbolt that this parameter should be added.--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 08:41, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

I think it should be added as well. Glide08 (talk) 10:58, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

RFC on the infobox of the 2018–2022 Italian general elections

An RFC about the infobox of the two general elections in Italy, is being held. You are all invited to participate. --Scia Della Cometa (talk) 08:39, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

Vote numbers

I think the decision to use only the percentages makes the infobox less informative, and would prefer them to be a parameter as well. (In fact, the equivalent Hebrew-language Wikipedia infobox uses the vote number, not the percentage). Glide08 (talk) 10:56, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

I oppose this as unnecessary clutter. Infoboxes should be minimalist. Number 57 20:37, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

Agree with Number 57. The infobox isn't meant to cover everything: that should be in the article. Bondegezou (talk) 10:56, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

It's not an unnecessary clutter - it enables a more accurate view of the votes, which doesn't have the rounding errors associated with percentages (e.g. the 1999 Austrian legislative election, where two parties would be shown as 26.91% even though one had 1,244,087 votes and another had 1,243,672) Glide08 (talk) 20:25, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

RFC: outgoing and elected MPs

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

There is clear consensus to include links to lists of elected and outgoing MPs in the Infobox. In this RFC, only 2/10 !votes were against the proposal. Their arguments were that it is unnecessary clutter in opposition to the manual of style. However, whether something is unnecessary or clutter is determined by the consensus, and here, the consensus overwhelmingly disagrees. (non-admin closure) Fieari (talk) 06:34, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

---

Should links to lists of elected and outgoing MPs be included in the {{Infobox legislative election}} like in the {{Infobox election}}?

• Yes
• No

Please do not respond to other editors in the Survey. You may respond to other editors in the Discussion section.--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 13:16, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

Survey

• No Clear violation of MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE as it is not summarising key facts in the article (it's linking to other articles). It's unnecessary clutter in the infobox (which is supposed to be minimalist), and can be linked in the body of the article. I also have zero understanding of why a link to previously-elected members is even slightly relevant. Number 57 13:22, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
• Yes It is clearly a fundamental information that does not occupy any additional space, if not the space of two links. The legislative elections concern the election of parliamentarians, and the lists of elected parliamentarians find their natural place in the same infobox. Otherwise, such important information may be lost, causing an useless damage to the article.--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 13:34, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
• Yes If the infobox has links to the previous and following elections, it makese sense for it to have links to the parliament as it was before and after the election. In addition, replicating features of the other infobox will allow this one to be adopted more easily. Glide08 (talk) 21:52, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
• Yes, assuming it would be only a single line underneath the years at the top. (I will say, it is always good practice to give editors an example of the change you want to make.) The infobox is already absolutely massive when in use (eg, 2003 Belgian federal election), but this isn’t the straw to break the camel’s back. And of course, {{infobox election}} is an absolute hulking beast too (eg, 2017 New Zealand general election), so we collectively just do not appear to care at all about this sort of problem. — HTGS (talk) 01:46, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
• Yes - Outgoing and incoming aren't always expressed in election articles. If they were, I would've been against this. ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 12:55, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

If the information isn’t in the article, it can’t go in the infobox. Infoboxes summarise articles and articles have to be able to stand alone without their infobox. The infobox is not meant to be a dumping ground for information that isn’t in the article already. Bondegezou (talk) 12:33, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

While I do agree with your sentiments, I differ when it comes to this. This is the only addition to the infobox that I'll agree too. Anything else, I won't due to bloat. ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 16:37, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

We are talking about a link to another article (list in this case), so that’s obviously not information that needs to be contained within the article. Although the article should probably have a link to the other page elsewhere in the body. — HTGS (talk) 21:45, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

I beg to differ. For example, if the links were added, it would bring to attention to pages for South Korea and Japan, nudging users into editing them as they aren't as complete compared to other countries. ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 08:56, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

It’s not clear how you disagree. Any links in the infobox should also be in the body, but information contained within a linked article should not need to be repeated in the body of the reader’s current article. — HTGS (talk) 00:58, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

What I'm saying is if they aren't in the infobox, it would be to the detriment of the member list pages as they are, in most cases, incomplete. ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 14:51, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

I'm really struggling with the logic here. The links can be (indeed, should be) elsewhere in the article, either in the results or see also section (at least the ones to the elected members, I still have no idea why members elected at the last election are relevant). Number 57 20:49, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

Hmmm... since you're suggesting that they could be in the results, I'll agree to that than having them in the infobox. ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 20:54, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

• Yes Seems like important information and this change provides ease of access to this information to our readers. ΙℭaℜuΣatthe☼ (talk). 13:07, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
• Yes - Reviewing the example below this change wouldn't overburden the infobox with too much clutter. This change is a helpful improvement. Thanks! Nemov (talk) 20:38, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
• No - as per MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE. Stop trying to cram ever more information and links into infoboxes. It makes them worse, not better. If people want this information, put it in the article. Bondegezou (talk) 12:33, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
• Yes , makes the site more useful Jack4576 (talk) 14:45, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
• Yes if done tactfully and non-intrusively. In my experience, I've found that this is a nice way of linking the articles together without having to shove a list of all 650 elected members into the prose. Curbon7 (talk) 18:06, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
  • @Curbon7: Is it done in prose? The most common ways of doing it (in my experience) are linking to it in the Results section or See also section, which would appear preferable than cluttering the infobox. It's still unclear to me why outgoing members are relevant. Number 57 18:29, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Discussion

1999 European Parliament election in Italy

13 June 1999
All 87 Italian seats to the European Parliament
Turnout	69,73 ( 3.87 pp)
Party Leader % Seats +/– Forza Italia Silvio Berlusconi 25.2% 22 -5 DS Walter Veltroni 17.3% 15 -1 AN – PS Gianfranco Fini 10.3% 9 -2 Bonino List Emma Bonino 8.5% 7 +5 Democrats Arturo Parisi 7.7% 6 New

Replying to Number57: so why should the outgoing Prime Minister be relevant in the infobox? But also the elected Prime Minister, since the latter is not elected directly by the voters,unlike MPs, which you don't want to include (just to make understand the inconsistency of whole reasoning)....--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 13:38, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

Because elections (sometimes) lead to changes of government. With regards to your comments above:

1. I strongly disagree that this is "fundamental information". The majority of election articles do not even have lists of elected members. The fundamentals are the results in terms of votes/seats won by parties, the change compared to the last election, and who formed a government afterwards.
2. The claim that it does "not occupy any additional space" is simply wrong. Of course adding new links takes up more space.
3. The information will not be "lost"; no-one is suggesting deleting the articles. They can simply be linked to from the body of the article.

Overall, I think your comments show a serious lack of perspective on the matter. I'm also concerned that you are canvassing at inappropriate places (which follows your inappropriate canvassing for the Italian election RfC). Why on earth is it relevant to put a notification on the other election infobox talkpage unless the intent is to get editors who favour that infoboxes' format to comment again? Number 57 14:46, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

Tt makes me smile (but not too much) to see that you see bad faith in any of my actions. Then I'll explain it again: the opener of an RFC can publicize the RFC itself in other pages related to the topic (in a neutral way, of course). In the case you mentioned I don't even need to explain the relationship. I rather see that you can't explain why the presence of these links is permissible in the main infobox and not in this one (under your protective wing). Scia Della Cometa (talk) 21:08, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

You have acted in bad faith throughout the discussion on the infobox, trying to delay the inevitable, canvassing when the RfC wasn't going your way, and then after the RfC went against your wishes, starting trying to make modifications to this infobox to make it more like the one you wanted to use. As was explained last time, neutrality is not the only requirement to avoid violating WP:CANVASS; notifications must be done at appropriate venues (for example, one could leave neutral messages only at userpages of users that is known to agree with you, and that would be a violation of the rules). As for your claim that I "can't explain why the presence of these links is permissible in the main infobox" you have not previously asked my view on this. If you had, I would have said that I don't think the links should be in that infobox either, but sadly attempts to remove unnecessary parameters from that one have failed (apparently because of resistance to change), so I have pretty much given up on trying to make improvements to it given my limited time available for Wikipedia these days. Number 57 22:19, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

Please don't make any more accusations without sense, really. Does it look like I left messages on user talk pages? Do you think I left invitations into inappropriate projects? Seriously, avoid commenting inappropriately further. From my point of view, the truth is one: you have almost appropriated an infobox and you propose to use it when you can, preventing changes to it that you don't like. That's it. Otherwise this Rfc was not necessary. And now it's better that we stop this surreal discussion, it doesn't concerns the matter and it can appear boring to other users. Scia Della Cometa (talk) 07:08, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

• @Scia Della Cometa is it possible to add a mock up of how this would look in practice? I think that would be helpful. Thanks! Nemov (talk) 18:22, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

@Nemov Of course! I cannot edit directly the infobox, but the final result would be similiar to the one below (the additions about outgoing and elected members are in bold).--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 20:18, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

@Scia Della Cometa: Would the revision of the template include two rows of arrows in both directions? If it will, I'm against that, the arrows are only needed next to the years. ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 11:52, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

@ValenciaThunderbolt: Well, the arrows don't necessarily have to be placed in the infobox, I have only copied them from the Infobox election.--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 19:12, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

@Scia Della Cometa: Right. Just wanted to make sure is all :) ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 19:17, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

@Everyone: Please do not respond to other editors in the Survey, you should discuss with the other editors in this section. Thanks!--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 08:40, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

@Number 57 write here the questions to other editors, please --Scia Della Cometa (talk) 21:16, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove "results" link

At the bottom of the seats table listing, there is the note "This lists parties that won seats. See the complete results below", which links to a section in the article. However, this is contrary to the guideline MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE:

Avoid links to sections within the article; the table of contents provides that function.

I propose to remove the infobox's note. —Bagumba (talk) 10:15, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

Fine by me. As per above, the less in the infobox the better. Number 57 19:38, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

The link is not useful, so I agree with the proposal.--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 18:28, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

I've removed the note.—Bagumba (talk) 05:22, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Footer

Legislative election

Party Leader % Seats +/– Header Socialist Leader Footer Democratic Liberal Leader

As emerged in Talk:2022 Italian general election, sometimes the header is not enough to effectively separate the parties between them: for these specific cases, I propose the possibility of introducing a "footer" in the infobox, as shown alongside. Scia Della Cometa (talk) 18:34, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

You can do the same using the heading function (as you have done in the example), so there seems to be no need for this. Number 57 18:54, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

It's not so, just think to two consecutive "heading" (that are not possible), and in any case it is not meant for that purpose.--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 19:15, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

I can't see why we would want two consecutive header rows. Number 57 19:18, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Just think to the 2022 Italian general election, they are not necessary but could be used. In any case, the heading is meant to serve the following party, not the previous party/parties, it is a matter of proper use of wikipedia tools.--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 19:48, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Incoming and Outcoming Members (2)

Following the consensus reached in the Request for comments above, I would need someone able to edit the infobox to implement it adding the parameters of the "Incoming and Outcoming members", like in the {{Infobox election}}. Thanks! Scia Della Cometa (talk) 19:59, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

 Done Please, update documentation. Ruslik_Zero 20:59, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Thanks! Scia Della Cometa (talk) 20:42, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

Fields for outgoing and incoming governments

Can (optional) fields be added for the outgoing and incoming government(/cabinet/ministry) in the bottom before/after section for both Template:Infobox election and Template:Infobox legislative election? I believe this would be useful, because existing articles about specific governments often don't get linked to in the election page itself. I also notice that the before_election and after_election fields (which are intended to be used for the head of government) are sometimes misused for this (example). -- Dissident (Talk) 19:58, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Okay, this is a good idea for parliamentary democracies. The Prime Minister isn't everything, the cabinet also matters, especially in cases where there has been a coalition, because cabinet positions are carefully distributed among the various parties with differing politics. —CX Zoom[he/him] ^{(let's talk • {C•X})} 15:16, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Infobox templates aren't heavily watched, so you might want to link this discussion at WT:E&R & WT:POLITICS. —CX Zoom[he/him] ^{(let's talk • {C•X})} 15:17, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Inclusion of Independents and Vacancies

I was wondering what the consensus is for the inclusion of independents. I've been adding it to pages for months and included independents, but as they aren't, obviously as party, along with vacancies for upcoming elections, should they be included. What do users think about removing them from where the template is in use, such as the latest French legislative election and South Korean legislative elections too? ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 17:15, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Independents should be included, otherwise the number of seats won doesn't add up to the expected total. Vacancies shouldn't, as they are not seats won. If there are vacancies, it should be handled by noting in the seats_for_election parameter that not all seats were up for election like (e.g.) here. Number 57 18:03, 27 August 2023 (UTC)