Template:Did you know nominations/Ryan Roberts (American football)

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by SL93 (talk) 02:52, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

DYK toolbox

Ryan Roberts (American football)

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Created by TonyTheTiger (talk). Self-nominated at 23:39, 28 June 2022 (UTC).

General: Article is new enough and long enough

Policy compliance:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
QPQ: Done.

Overall: Overall the page looks good, and ALT2 is cited in the article with this. I think that ALT2 is the most interesting of the 3 hooks, the others don't seem quite hooky enough. There are a few sourcing issues though. It looks like there's some WP:Original research, or at least WP:Synthesis in the "College Career" section. There's doesn't seem to be a citation for the claim that he "ranked fourth in school history." The statement that some of his accomplishments "seem to warrant inclusion" in the Notre Dame recordbook also needs to be cited, or it's original research. If they can't be cited to a reliable source, then they have to be removed. BuySomeApples (talk) 22:26, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

  • I think it is pretty clear that he was fourth in school history is cited to the record book. In each case the current list of players ahead of him only includes 3 that came before him. Since the others came after him, he was fourth when his career ended.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:58, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
@TonyTheTiger: The source cited (p. 103 of the ND Football Media Guide) rank him 8th in career sacks and tied for 7th in single season sacks, not 4th in both as the article states. Can you edit it to specify that it was fourth in school history at the time? I can see how that's implied by the dates in the recordbook. BuySomeApples (talk) 21:14, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
  • The point about inclusion is we have conflicting reliable sources. The South Bend Trib says he had certain statistics and the Record book says he doesn't. I don't think I need a third reliable source to say that two reliable sources conflict.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 17:04, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
You don't need a third reliable source to use two conflicting sources, but you do need a source for any deductions you make based on an apparent conflict. What makes it WP:Synth is that you are taking the South Bend source (which doesn't say he belongs in the record book) and saying that based on the stats in the article, you think Roberts ought to be included in the record book. You'd need to find a reliable source which comes to that conclusion, even if it seems like common sense. Otherwise it's original research, because you're looking up stats and coming to the conclusion that he's a recordholder, when the record book itself doesn't recognize that. BuySomeApples (talk) 21:14, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
I have tried to edit the article to clarify the issues you have raised.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:40, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
What about ALT2a to get a few more clicks.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 12:23, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
or ALT3.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:50, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
Hi @TonyTheTiger: Hooks 2 through 3 (and all variations) look great! I trimmed the line about his ranking very slightly. I still think the original research is an issue re: the South Bend Tribune. Can you leave his exploits in the article, and just remove the part about it seeming to belong in the recordbook? The important thing is just to not say anything that isn't said by the source. BuySomeApples (talk) 00:54, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
User:BuySomeApples, I have taken a stab at revision.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:42, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
Lets agree not to use 2 and use either 2a or 3.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:44, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
I struck ALT2 and am approving ALT2a and ALT3. BuySomeApples (talk) 01:52, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
  • Your last edit removed the statement of conflicting facts. You have left the South Bend Tribune statement claimed fact that he had some great single-game accomplishments as if it is an unopposed statement of fact. However, the Notre Dame record book states a different fact that he did not have these accomplishments. Leaving only one or the other is taking sides, which we are not supposed to do. Regarding whether he had these big games, WP is not suppose to have an opinion as to whether he did or didn't. By stating the fact that he did and removing the fact that he didn't WP is taking a side, which is wrong.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:04, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
    • @TonyTheTiger: I left both facts in the article, what I removed was the connecting information that they contradict each other and which implies that based on the South Bend Tribune, Roberts not being included in the Notre Dame recordbook is an omission. If you want, you can include his records from both sources, but not re-include any comparison between them (turns of speech like "Nonetheless", "seems to warrant inclusion" etc). I'm gonna ask for a second review, since you still have concerns about neutrality and balance. BuySomeApples (talk) 23:03, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
      • You actually did not leave both facts in the article. The Media guide has a single-games sacks list that includes players who have had over 3.5 single-game sacks and a single-games tackles list that includes players who have had 19 single-game tackles. Fact one is that the Media Guide does not include Roberts as being among those players who have had either 3.5 sacks or 19 tackles. Fact two is that the South Bend Tribune states that Roberts had games with more than 3.5 sacks and 19 tackles. I don't see the first fact in the article anymore.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 00:10, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
New enough, long enough, sourced, neutral, no plagiarism concerns. QPQ is done. Hooks might not be interesting, but after reading the article I can't think of anything better, so I'll pass them. ALT2a is cited, but I'm concerned with ALT3. The source says, "While splitting time at tailback and defensive end in high school" I don't know much about American football, but Wikipedia has different articles for tailback (also known as halfback) and running back. Are these the same positions? If not, I think the article needs to be updated and a new ALT3 proposed. Z1720 (talk) 00:05, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
  • @TonyTheTiger and BuySomeApples: My goal is to get the oldest DYK nominations approved, if possible. In terms of the edit linked above, I think it's fine to include that the 2021 media guide does not include Roberts in those two stats, as it is contradicting another source and should be noted. I don't think it's synth to point out that Notre Dame does not list those stats. I would probably remove "only" and "nonetheless" from the edit as redundant, as the reader can draw conclusions without those words being added. If there are still concerns about this edit, I suggest that it be brought up on the talk page. I'm still concerned with ALT3 regarding the positions. Is there any additional information on that? Z1720 (talk) 14:29, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
  • @TonyTheTiger: The source used to verify that he was a running back in high school is this one, but that source says, "While splitting time at tailback and defensive end in high school," On Wikipedia, tailback links to Halfback (American football). Is there a different source that says he was a running back in high school? Z1720 (talk) 19:59, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
  • I am guessing I am talking to a person who does not follow gridiron football even the canadian kind, but it seems like you are Canadian and may understand hockey. Most standard American football offensive formations have two running backs, like say hockey has two wings/wingers. Generally, one is the Fullback (gridiron football) and one is the Halfback (American football) (like hockey has a left and a right wing). Some offenses use specific positioning of the halfback in which he lines up further from the line than the fullback. He is then referred to as a tailback. This might be like in hockey where one guys job is to sort of screen the goalie while the other forwards are a further from the goalie. So Roberts was a halfback used in the tailback formation, which of course makes him a running back.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:39, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
  • @TonyTheTiger: Thanks for clarifying this for me. Sometimes, I think I'm a Canadian stereotype when I need things explained to me as if it was hockey :P. I'm satisfied with Tony's explanation above about the positions. @Narutolovehinata5: since there's already ALT2a above, I think there's some good options for the prepper to pick from. Z1720 (talk) 00:34, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
ALT2a and ALT3 approved, with a preference for ALT2 (as I don't think it's surprising that a football player would play football in high school.) Z1720 (talk) 00:34, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
User:Z1720 I was hoping you would approve ALT2a and ALT3.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:57, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
@TonyTheTiger: I meant to put ALT2a. I fixed it above. Z1720 (talk) 13:39, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
Great. we are all set.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:30, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
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