Talk:Umm Kulthum bint Ali

Awn ibn Ja'afer.

Awn ibn Ja'afer I couldn't cross-reference his name on any Arabic website, some cite a Marawan --The Brain 03:40, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

I found his name in her biography in seyar alaam alnblaa -an Arabic book- مجاهد الكناني (talk) 14:17, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

Sources

http://www.livingislam.org/o/umuk_e.html --Striver 15:10, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

About the Burial Place

It's not a certain fact that his burial place that is mentioned in this article is true. According to the following reference: http://www.tebyan.net/Islam_Features/Prophet/Companions/2006/2/7/27498.html Arjanizary (talk) 18:51, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Notability

Notability is not inherited. Being the child of a notable person, and the wife of another, does not make a person notable in their own right. We need sources that discuss this person and, right now, it doesn't look like we have them. This may well be a candidate for deletion. - Sitush (talk) 16:37, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

I think you may well be right. I am still unfamiliar with judging a topic's notability status so I think you would be best to decide. When I first came to the page, it was full of rubbish. Please see history of page and you will know what I mean. I had to delete practically half the page. As it stands now it gives no meaning or context to this persons life anyway. Please do whatever you think may be appropriate. Mbcap (talk) 01:21, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

It is not an area with which I am familiar. My note above was intended as a "shot across the bows" in the hope that some people who are familiar might be able to improve this thing. I suspect that improvement might involve use of non-English sources and I would thus suggest that people consult WP:NOENG for the accepted protocol regarding use of those. Other than that comment, let's give it a bit of time. - Sitush (talk) 01:26, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Sources of marriage

Added tag for reference. Removal of tag without reference/source may be avoided for the sake of neutrality and authenticity. Nannadeem (talk) 21:36, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Nannadeem - What part requires reference? Mbcap (talk) 22:36, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

AoA (thanks brother).Personally I am not interested in our differences with regard to relationships but I am interested that our differences which are amendable per math should be attempted for settlement sincerely. I opted to place here tag for marriage references so that researchers could get benefit from our deliberations. Please see:

• Very little is known about her though her name appears several times in history. By popular accounts she was younger than Hazrat Zainab but like her she was very intelligent and pious. She was married to Muhammad Bin Jaffer. Source: http://www.aldhiaa.com/english/book/book/holy_prophet_and_ahlul_bayt_library/fatime_al_zahra/a_brief_biography_of_hazrat_fatima_a_s/010.html
• See a marriage dispute discussed at: http://www.al-shia.org/html/eng/books/encyclopedia/chapter5a/9.html

It is also said that according to: Sayyid Muḥsin b. Sayyid ʿAbd al-Karīm al-Amīn al-ʿĀmilī (سید محسن بن سید عبدالکریم الامین العاملي) (b.1284/1867-d.1371/1952) son of 'Abd al-Karim al-'Amili "The daughters of Imam Ali Ibn Abi Talib whose names or Kunyas are Umm Kulthum have been three or four"1. Umm Kulthum Kubra, the daughter of Lady Fatima 2. Umm Kulthum Wusta, the wife of Muslim b. Aqil 3. Umm Kulthum Sughra 4. Zaynab Sughra whose kunya is Umm Kulthum

Now see what confusion is here. So more references(primary/secondary or tertiary) would be great help. Nannadeem (talk) 15:02, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

Nannadeem: Thank you for the reply. Both of the sources you have posted are Shia fan sites and fail WP:RS. We do not source information at Wikipedia from fan sites or anything of that nature.

• Some secondary sources are Mir'at ul-Oqool by Majlisi, Al-Mabsoot by Al-Tusi, and al-Istighathah fi Bida‘ ath-Thalatha by Abul Qasim al-Kufi. All of these are Shia scholars vetted by the Shia school and were experts in their field. Others are Al-Shafi by Sharif al-Murtaza and Takmilat Al-Rijal by Abdal Nabi Al-Kazimi.
• There is no confusion here. The marriage information is well sourced.
• I have no idea why you mention her piety and intelligence as they are not relevant to the discussion.

Mbcap (talk) 20:20, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

• Furu al-Kafi, Vol. 5, p. 346, as quoted in Tragedy of al-Zahra can be read at Shia view of Umar.
• Caliph Umar did have a wife named Umm Kulsoom Bint Jarwal Ansari. She died in the 50th year after Hijra. Her namaz Jinaza was lead by Imam Hasan. (Al Istiab by Ibn Abdul Barr Volume 2 page 795 Tareekhe Khamees vol II p 318 History of al-Tabri vol 12 p 15 also Roza tul Ihbab Volume 3 page 585, Al Bidayah wa al Nihayah Tareekhe Khamees Volume 3 page 318. These all are 100% secondary & tertiary. Tertiary sources are publications such as encyclopedias and other compendia that summarize primary and secondary sources. So confusion is self explanatory.

• Wikipedia is a tertiary source. It is better for all of us to have balanced page incorporating view point of each and every community. I do not want to paint the page with references anymore just for debate.Nannadeem (talk) 23:23, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

Nannadeem; yes there are also tertiary sources for this as well as secondary. I have just added another nine references so as to satisfy those who are not yet convinced. The references are from the most notable experts in the field of Shia school. I appreciate your desire to have a debate but I would ask that we keep the discussion focused on building the Wiki. However you are welcome to debate with me through email correspondence if you wish. Mbcap (talk) 19:13, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

Mbcap Having been impressed of your grip over history, I request you to please create the page of Umm Kulthum bint Jarwila Khuzima. You may see noting at page Hazrat Umar where reference 119 (Nasab Qurayshi, P.349 by az-Zubayri) has been provided. I t would be a great help for researchers. Thanks. Any mistake from my side may please be pardon considering me a human composed of the material to err. Nannadeem (talk) 20:52, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

It is clear that there is evidence to suggest that Umar ibn Khattab was not the spouse of Umm Kulthum bint Ali; my edit made it clear that this position is held by SOME Muslims. I did not vandalize the page or attempt to hide pieces of information. Please allow Wikipedia users to explore the sources of both positions. Kaztrack (talk) 05:08, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

I suggest that the position of Umm Kulthum bint Ali being the disputed wife of Ali be labelled as a 'minority position'. Would anyone have objections to this? Kaztrack (talk) 05:18, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

Stop adding false and fringe bordering information onto the article. I suggest you read the sources again. Mbcap (talk) 18:16, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

I have read the information you have provided, have you read the information from the sources that you removed from the page? It is impolite to accuse me of adding false information to the article, when it is clear that many Muslims are uncertain about whether a marriage took place between Umm Kulthum bint Ali and Umar ibn Khattab--and clear evidence has been provided. I have attempted to constructively edit the page and offered a solution to resolve this dispute but you have belied my suggestion. Please do not allow Wikipedia to become an outlet for sectarianism, and allow both competing views to be considered by Wikipedia users. I am awaiting a constructive solution to this dispute on your end. Kaztrack (talk) 20:01, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

Accuse you? You are adding fringe bordering information that you have sourced from a Shia fan site and a blog. You call this clear evidence. The sources are a joke. Please read WP:RS. Mbcap (talk) 21:54, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

Mbcap The sources are acceptable and there are clear references within these sources which clearly elucidate the nature of this historical dispute (I should also note that there is information in this article that is completely uncited that you leave untouched). It is clear that other users before me have also challenged your claims. You first state that there is no historical dispute (in your initial edit summary), then you state that yes there is a historical dispute but the opinion that Umm Kulthum bint Ali didn't marry Umar ibn Khattab is 'fringe'? So is there a dispute or not? When I attempt to show Wikipedia users that this is an issue of historical dispute you erase the information. Your behaviour is unacceptable and I refer you to the policies and guidelines page WP:PGCHANGE. You make no attempts to offer a solution to this dispute. May I remind you that this Wikipedia page is not your personal blog, it has no sole owner and attempting to silence competing points of view should be discouraged. Kaztrack (talk) 22:54, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

Kaztrack You say that the sources you provided[1][2] are acceptable. You present Shia fan sites and blogs as sources so you must be incompetent. I apologise but such bogus sources will not do. I reverted you and so did another editor because the mess you created had to be cleaned up. Mbcap (talk) 02:54, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Mbcap

Have you checked out the original 11 sources of the article for yourself? I have just reviewed the two sources I provided. The second one is I agree not suitable for an encyclopedia, but the first one certainly is. It is a well researched article that provides a litany of sourcing.

Kaztrack, please check Wikipedia guidelines on reliable sources. Mbcap is correct - the websites you link are not reliable sources. Edward321 (talk) 05:41, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Composing observation to page

This page has unique characters amongst ENWP articles. This page has 14 lines in its references box/Section + 11 Lines in Bibliography totaling to 25 lines. Whereas it has only 11 (including 3 without source) lines in text. Therefore it needs to be expanded in view of material from both sects in order to satisfy the neutrality. Nannadeem (talk) 12:43, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

Marriage age, death of umer and possibility of children

How can marriage be consummated when bride was 8 years old? According to dates given in wikipedia, umer died when umm e kulthum was 10 years old. How is it possible to produce two children for a 10 year old? Farhadali1005 (talk) 14:28, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

Umm Kulthum's date of birth is given here as 630. I question this; I think the year is sometimes given as 628. However, I can't produce a source for the alternative date, so I'm not able to introduce it to the article. In any case, she cannot have been born much earlier than 628, since her parents were married in 624 and she was their fourth child.

The marriage date of December 638 is absolutely sound, being from Tabari. Unless there is a rival date from an equally good source, we shall have to accept it. I'd rather not think about "how" such a marriage could have been consummated. It is not our job to pass moral judgment on history but only to record what happened.

Umar died in November 644, so Umm Kulthum would have been 14 by then, and it's quite possible that she had given birth to a child. Two children is a stretch, but perhaps they were twins? With such an obstetric history, it is perhaps unsurprising that poor Umm Kulthum had no children by her subsequent husbands.Petra MacDonald (talk) 13:27, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

There is a reference to Umm Kulthum's age in Dhahabi's Siyar, volume 3 page 500.

Running it through Google Translate indicates that she was born in 6 AH, which, according to the calendar converter, was between May 627 and May 628.

This would make her between 10.5 and 11.5 when she married Umar; and 17, plus or minus 6 months, at his death.

The same article indicates that she died "early in the reign of Muawiyah". He became Caliph in 661; I'm not sure how many years into his reign would be considered "early".Petra MacDonald (talk) 10:28, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

How can umer marry Janabe Umme Kulsum (sa)?

Umer's daughter, Hafsa was a wife of Prophet Muhammad. This makes Hafsa the Step-mother of Hz Fatima and the Step-Grandmother of Umme Kalthum, the daughter of Ali and Fatima. Do you know what this means? It makes Umer the Step-Great Grandfather of Umme Kalthum. The sunnis claim the daughter of Ali married her Great Grandfather? Is such sort of marriage allowed in Islam, please prove from the Quran Hasnain11072 (talk) 01:24, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

I don't think it matters whether such a marriage is "allowed" in Islam; we only record that it happened.

Perhaps the sharia ruling was not as well developed in 638 as it is now.

Two of Uthman's wives were mother and daughter. He divorced the mother before the daughter was born, so technically he was never the girl's stepfather. I hope this kind of marriage would not be allowed today, but nobody seems to have complained at the time.Petra MacDonald (talk) 13:33, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

Fixing articles

The article currently has many primary sources, hopefully in the coming hours, I will fix these primary sources with secondary sources. Just informing — Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.73.112.10 (talk) 14:35, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

Bibi (sa) name was not Zaynab

Zaynab (sa) was Ali (as) other daughter. Kulthum bint Ali (sa) real name is not sure. WikiShia records many different names so we cannot only put Zaynab in the starting. Her name is disputed, I'm removing Zaynab. Thnx — Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.63.138.237 (talk) 18:47, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

Although it does not sound like it umm kulthum is a name so she might not even have another "real" name مجاهد الكناني (talk) 05:07, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

IP edits

It seems a bit dishonest to describe the following book as a primary source:

• Jiwa, Shainool; Sajoo, Amyn; Daftary, Farhad; Daftary, Farhad, eds. (2015). The Shi'i World: Pathways in Tradition and Modernity. I.B. Tauris. ISBN 978-1784534776.

-- Toddy1 (talk) 12:44, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

Third source

I have checked the third source -marked unreliable- and there is nothing there about any controversy. Note that I could only find the two first prints of the book from 1981 and 1982 and not the 2001 print mentioned as a reference. 2A02:CB80:4097:808:7A:F4A1:453D:461E (talk) 14:50, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

The infobox

The old one

The IP editor's one

Umm Kulthum bint Ali أُمّ كُلْثُوم بِنْت عَلِيّ Kulthūm bint Alī in Islamic calligraphy Born 4 February 627 CE (18 Rabi' al-awwal AH 6) Medina, Al-Hijaz (present-day Saudi Arabia) Died c. 685–705 Damascus, Umayyad Empire Cause of death Poisioning Resting place Sayyidah Zaynab Mosque, Damascus, or Baab Sagheer, Damascus, Syria Known for A granddaughter of the Islamic prophet Muhammad Spouses 'Umar ibn al-Khattab Awn ibn Ja'far Muhammad ibn Ja'far Abdullah ibn Ja'far Parents Ali ibn Abi Talib (father) Fāṭimah bint Muḥammad (mother) Relatives List Khadija (maternal grand mother) Hasan (brother) Husayn (brother) Muhsin (brother) Zaynab (sister) Hilal (paternal half-brother) Abbas (paternal half-brother) Family House of Islamic prophet Muhammad

Umm Kulthum bint Ali أُمّ كُلْثُوم بِنْت عَلِيّ Umm Kulthūm bint Alī in Islamic calligraphy Consort of the Rashidun caliph Tenure 638–644 Successor Na'ila bint al-Furafisa (Consort of Uthman) Born c. February 627 Medina, Arabia Died c. 685–705 Damascus, Syria Burial Bab al-Saghir, Damascus Spouse Umar ibn al-Khattab Awn ibn Ja'far Muhammad ibn Ja'far Abdullah ibn Ja'far Issue Zayd Ruqayya Fatima Tribe Banu Hashim (by birth) Banu Adi (by marriage) Father Ali ibn Abi Talib Mother Fatima bint Muhammad Religion Islam

An IP editor objects to the infobox. The reasons he/she gave are as follows:

• 15:54, 19 May 2022 Adding the royalty template which is much suitable and usually founded on the wives of caliphs/kings/emperors
• 18:31, 19 May 2022 Re-adding template; not 'a lot of good information' was removed; her alleged cause of death being poisoning disputed (see her WikiShia article), its only al-Sana'ni who says this; the only thing removed was the unneccessary long relative list, which would include so many people from her father's family, her grandfather's family; it would be infobox bloat; this template has also far more and better information for her; also re-adding all four spouses

As far as I can see, the old infobox is more useful to the reader.-- Toddy1 (talk) 20:55, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 29 July 2022

i am sunni muslim and none of prophets grand daughter were married to umar /usman or abubakar sideeq rz Hammadshah73 (talk) 14:39, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

ok Hammadshah73 (talk) 14:40, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:43, 29 July 2022 (UTC)