Talk:Thomas Jefferson

Do we need a whole paragraph in the lead about Sally?

I figure it should be reduced to one sentence? 77.103.3.53 (talk) 02:54, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Agree. The lead is already too long. Suggest keeping the first section mentioning her and leave the details to the body of the article. TFD (talk) 03:21, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Which part do you mean when you say the "first section"?--MattMauler (talk) 12:56, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Agree. The last sentence can be ommited in the introduction. Possibly the Hemmings information can be reduced to one sentence. Keep the DNA information. Cmguy777 (talk) 02:21, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

I can see removing the last sentence and possibly these two sentences "Evidence suggests that Jefferson started the relationship with Hemings when they were in Paris, some time after she arrived there at the age of 14 or 15, when Jefferson was 44. By the time she returned to the United States at 16 or 17, she was pregnant.[15]"–CaroleHenson (talk) 19:36, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

"1998 DNA testing of Jefferson's and Hemings' descendants" this is factually untrue. the tests were not done on any descendent of TJ, because none existed for testing, at least not for y chromasome (paternal) testing. testing was done on the descendent of a cousin of TJ's. TJ's younger brother randolf was at monticello for each of hemming's pregnancies, and she had no more children after randolf got remarried and never returned to monticello. while TJ was a widower, alone, at monticello only a few doors away from hemmings when hemming was by all accounts very attractive and still young, she had no more children. this paragraph in the article makes assertions that are highly speculative and contain factual errors. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Christo1234 (talk • contribs) 09:40, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

We have to go by what the sources say. A woman historian showed by time line Jefferson was there everytime Hemings got pregnant at Monticello. Randolph was not in France, as far as I know, when Hemmings got pregnant. But Jefferson was. Readers can conclude whatever they want on the matter. I agree the DNA test was not directly from Hemmings, her children, including Eston, and Jefferson. But the 1999 DNA test was important to historians. We are just trying to reduce wording in the introduction. Cmguy777 (talk) 03:43, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

Agree to significantly reduce the lede paragraph about Hemings. as there is more text devoted to Hemings than any other topic in the lede. This presents a due weight and NPOV issue.
Let's not forget that this was Jefferson's home, and Sally's home, so it is nothing amazing that they were both around during times of conception. Also, Jefferson was often swarmed with visitors, including other Jefferson males, like Randolph, who had a reputation for fraternizing with the slaves, while the DNA evidence is not Thomas Jefferson's but a distant relative and points to more than 20 other Jefferson males. The statement "Since Jefferson's time, controversy has revolved around his relationship with Sally Hemings," That should read his alleged relationship, as there are no accounts from any one except a couple of Jefferson's resentful enemies, like James Callender, that they were having a relationship. As it is, the lede makes the statement as if it was an undisputed fact. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 23:28, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

I agree with undue weight. I believe the whole issue centered around whether Heming's ancestors should be buried at Monticello. That has more to do with Hemings's family and is more of a family concern than a historical one. Jefferson is not on trial. The whole issue has been overblown and the least said on the matter the better. Cmguy777 (talk) 06:49, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

The last two sentences are unnecessary. Also, the wording reads like a trial. Gathered evidence? Fathered six children with Hemings? Is Jefferson guilty? The tone is too weighted. The DNA test only had to do with Eston Hemmings. Should not the reader have some choice concerning how many children had with Hemings? Cmguy777 (talk) 07:18, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

I submit the following change: Since 1800 Jefferson was rumored to have had children by his [sister-in-law and] slave Sally Hemings. A 1999 DNA test concluded that one of Sally Hemings's children, Eston Hemings, was of the Jefferson male line. [According to historian consensus,] D[d]ocumentary and statistical evaluation combined with oral history, suggests that Jefferson [probably] fathered at least six children with Hemings, including four that survived to adulthood. This is just a start. I think the tone is better and leaves the reader room for their own opinions on the Jefferson and Hemings controversy. Editor opinions are welcome. Nothing is set in stone. Editor consensus is essential. Cmguy777 (talk) 04:41, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

Cmguy777, would add "sister-in-law" before 'slave' in your wording. Randy Kryn (talk) 04:57, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

Thanks Randy Kyrn. I agree. Cmguy777 (talk) 05:33, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

Actually I meant put an 'and' in there too ("sister-in-law and slave"). Else it reads like a badly attended porn title. Randy Kryn (talk) 10:44, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

Yes. I agree. Adding "and" would be good. Are there any other changes you would make? I added "probably" and "According to historian consensus" to the paragraph. Cmguy777 (talk) 20:23, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

Proposed change

Please vote or state your opinion. Thanks. The following is a replacement paragraph to replace the current information in the article's introduction. Cmguy777 (talk) 21:36, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

Since 1800 Jefferson was rumored to have had children by his sister-in-law and slave Sally Hemings. A 1999 DNA test concluded that one of Sally Hemings's children, Eston Hemings, was of the Jefferson male line. According to historian consensus, documentary, and statistical evaluation combined with oral history, Jefferson probably fathered at least six children with Hemings, including four that survived to adulthood. Cmguy777 (talk) 21:36, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

• Support This is better than what is in the current article. It is less wording and written in a neutral tone, not trial speak. I think this is enough for the introduction section. Cmguy777 (talk) 21:36, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

Is there anyone still interested in this subject? Thanks. Cmguy777 (talk) 02:41, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

Other opinions welcome. Cmguy777 (talk) 05:00, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

• Support. I would only change the phrase historian consensus, documentary, and statistical evaluation combined with oral history to "scholarly consensus, based on documentary and statistical evaluation as well as oral history". Antiok 1pie (talk) 19:10, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

Yes. I agree with your changes. Sounds good. Cmguy777 (talk) 01:37, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

I think editors have had enough time to respond. Here is the final compromise edit: Since 1800 Jefferson was rumored to have had children by his sister-in-law and slave Sally Hemings. A 1999 DNA test concluded that one of Sally Hemings's children, Eston Hemings, was of the Jefferson male line. According to scholarly consensus, based on documentary and statistical evaluation, as well as oral history, Jefferson probably fathered at least six children with Hemings, including four that survived to adulthood. Cmguy777 (talk) 22:03, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

This was the edit I put in the introduction. I added "known as the Jefferson-Hemings controversy" to the paragraph. Since 1800 Jefferson was rumored to have had children by his sister-in-law and slave Sally Hemings, [known as the Jefferson-Hemings controversy]. A 1999 DNA test concluded that one of Sally Hemings's children, Eston Hemings, was of the Jefferson male line. According to scholarly consensus, based on documentary and statistical evaluation, as well as oral history, Jefferson probably fathered at least six children with Hemings, including four that survived to adulthood. Cmguy777 (talk) 22:19, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

With a source, it possibly could be added that a minority scholarly opinion disagrees. Cmguy777 (talk) 22:23, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

I added the 2001 dissenting report by the Thomas Jefferson Heritage Society in a note. It should be kept in a note, to avoid confusion for the reader. We don't want to establish an argument in the introduction narration. Thanks. Cmguy777 (talk) 23:19, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

No note warranted; very much a minority viewpoint. That's what the article body is for. VQuakr (talk) 23:45, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

That is fine by me. It was a scholarly commission report. Leaving dissent in the article body is alright. Thanks. Cmguy777 (talk) 23:47, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

The Thomas Jefferson Heritage Society is already cited in article body. There is no need to add anything further. Thanks.. Cmguy777 (talk) 00:24, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

Presidency

Thomas Jefferson was President from year 1801-1809. When he was President he was only (age 57) years old. 47.156.120.20 (talk) 00:23, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

Uh huh. Your point? You say that he was "only" 57 like 57 is young. Display name 99 (talk) 03:10, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 February 2023

“Jefferson began raping Hemings” instead of “started a relationship”.

Hemings was a young slave. She could not give consent and this is called rape. To call it a relationship gives the impression that it was consensual, which is not only misleading, but completely incorrect and offensive. This is an example of whitewashing history and leaving out the ugly facts that fuel misogyny. 2001:56A:78B8:7800:24D5:E6A3:EBE0:7D4B (talk) 15:25, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. This will clearly be a contentious change. There is an active discussion above that is about some of this prose. I suggest you bring up your suggested change there, or wait for someone else to respond in this section. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:33, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

The truth is only Hemings and Jefferson know what happened in France. As far as is known there was no French authority that mentions the incident. All we know for sure was that she was pregnant when she came home from France. Also, Hemings was not technically a slave in France. Slavery had been outlawed. I believe her brother was learning how to become a French chef. The other issue is that Wikipedia is not a format to put historical figures on trial. A "relationship" is a neutral word. Any change would require editor consensus. Cmguy777 (talk) 00:09, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

Ongoing discussion about the short description

There is an ongoing discussion about the short descriptors of the first four U.S. presidents at Talk:John Adams#Short description, thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 12:50, 12 March 2023 (UTC)