Talk:Shia view of Ali

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Note[edit]

Abu Bakr dispatched Ali to participate during the Ridda wars against the forces of Tulayha, a self-proclaimed prophet in July 632.

This discredits some Shea sources that claim, Ali did not give his oath of allegiance to Abu Bakr until some time after the death of his wife, Fatimah in the year 633. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alimughal69 (talk • contribs) 11:31, 30 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Untitled[edit]

Comment: This might not be necessary if consensus is reached to merge all the "Shia view" articles back into their corresponding main article. For more discussion on this point see here. Zunaid 08:27, 23 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

No, i dont agree on mergin all. The Umar view is way to large to be merged.--Striver 14:05, 23 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Backing off in the face of injustice?[edit]

I'm against this page. Why should Zora dictate what is factual and what is not, based on her western understanding of Islam? How in the world does this Shia antagonist get the authority to decide what goes on the main Ali page as standard reference?

This page only is valid if there is a similar page Sunni view on Ali ibn Abi Talib and Western Academic view on Ali ibn Abi talib.--Zereshk 20:56, 26 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Done: Non-Muslim view of Ali and Sunni view of Ali --Striver 01:07, 8 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This article and what it says about Uthman and saad bin abi waqas (MABPT), who were pious companions of the prophet is derogatory. The opinions expressed should not be biased. That is the purpose of this portal. Accurate and non-opinionated information.

The manner in which Ali (MABPH) is portrayed in this article seems to emphasize that he was a greedy and power hungry person who just acted piously. Ali (MABPH) was in fact the humblest of persons and would never have replied to Uthman (MABPH) in such a manner and neither would have Uthman (MABPH) beaten Ali (MABPH)!

Amdmansoor (talk) 10:53, 26 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Expand[edit]

There is so incredibly much to add to the Shi'a view, do it if you have the time! --Striver 01:25, 6 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

this article needs to be cleaned up, removing duplication of straightforward biographic data already covered at Ali and focussing on details particular to the Shia view. --dab (𒁳) 12:45, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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Ali's Chronology[edit]

Ali ibn Abi Talib's chronology underwent a major mutation from his first historical biographers. Before the socio-religious institution of ahadith (narrations) was firmly established (circa 820-825 CE), or during the Caliphate of 7th Abbasid caliph, Al-Mamun Al-Rashid, the earliest standard Islamic historiographers and hagiographers were primarily the mu'arikheen (chroniclers). With the development of ahadith (narrations) in standard Islam, the muhaditheen (narrators) inexorably eclipsed the mu'arikheen (chroniclers). Since there is virtually no contemporaneous literature surviving from the Umayyad Caliphate (with the exception of Quranic calligraphy), all of the literature of standard Islam are the product of the Abbasid Caliphate (750-1258 CE-Iraq; 1261-1517 CE-Egypt). There remains only sparse references to literary sources from Umayyad times of which absolutely no surviving copies exist. Amidst all of this, the first three (3) biographies of Ali ibn Abi Talib were:

Kitab Maqtal Ali (144 AH/761 CE) by Abu Mikhnaf Lut bin Yahya bin Said bin Mikhnaf bin Salim al-Azdi al-Ghamidi al-Kufi (died 157 AH/773 CE),

Kitab Maqtal Amir Al-Muminin (183 AH/799 CE) by Abu Ishaq Ibrahim bin Sulayman Hashami al-Khazzaz al-Kufi (died 204 AH/819 CE),

and Maqtal Amir ul-Muminin (201 AH/817 CE) by Abu Mundhir Hisham ibn Muhammad bin Saib Al-Kalbi (died 206 AH/821 CE)

Both Hashami and Al-Kalbi adapted Abu Mikhnaf's very first known hagiography of Ali ibn Abi Talib. Hence, they all recorded the same chronology for Ali ibn Abi Talib. The three (3) factors which determined Ali's timeline were his age during the Hijrah (Migration) of Prophet Muhammad, his age when Prophet Muhammad passed away, and his age when he himself was martyred. The following is a summary:

[Hijri-Lunar chronology]

Ali ibn Abi Talib - Age 16 (during the Hijrah) - Age 27 (when Muhammad passed away) - Age 56 (when martyred or assassinated)

Translates to:

Ali ibn Abi Talib=Born 13 Rajab 16 B.H.(Before Hijrah); Died 21 Ramadhan 40 A.H.(Anno Hijri)

However, with the rise of the institution of ahadith (narrations), the muhaditheen (narrators) almost unanimously felt that Ali's acceptance of the Islamic faith as a cognitive and cognizant nine(9)-year-old preadolescent would appear far better for his historical reputation and image, than him being a three(3)-year-old small child when Muhammad was made aware of his prophethood. It was this primary reason that the muhaditheen (narrators) altered in their oral and written traditions, the date of Ali's birth to 22 B.H.(Before Hijrah). Henceforth, Ali ibn Abi Talib was almost unanimously documented by historians, hagiographers, and narrators as having been born in 22 B.H.(Before Hijrah). This led to the following:

[Hijri-Lunar chronology]

Ali ibn Abi Talib - Age 9 (when accepting Islam) - Age 22 (during the Hijrah) - Age 33 (when the Holy Prophet passed away) - Age 62 (when martyred or assassinated)

Translates to:

Ali ibn Abi Talib=Born 13 Rajab 22 B.H.(Before Hijrah); Died 21 Ramadhan 40 A.H.(Anno Hijri)

The original date of Ali ibn Abi Talib's birth remains almost exclusively recorded in the historiographical archives of his first three (3) biograhphies. As for the birth years of 24 B.H.(599 CE) & 23 B.H.(600 CE), these dates are the product of 19th & 20th Century historians. As with the literary evolution of ahadith (narrations) about Prophet Muhammad, who had over 600,000 ahadith (narrations) attributed to him alone by the time muhaditheen Al-Bukhari sorted out what he considered sahih (authentic), Caliph Ali similarly had countless ahadith (narrations) attributed to him, as well as about him. Amongst some of these, there emerged accounts reporting him to be ages 10, 11, 12, 14, 15, and even 16 when he accepted Islam. However, each of these were only the single sources and generally cited as weak by the most renowned standard Islamic scholars. Summarily, there is also the question of Arabic semantics. When any of the Arabic scholars wrote (for example) that Muhammad received prophethood in his 40th year, that meant that he was actually thirty-nine (39) years old, but in his 40th year running. Subsequently, when Caliph Ali was recorded as accepting Islam in his 10th year, that meant that he was actually nine (9) years old, but in his 10th year running. Flagrantedelicto (talk) 17:18, 8 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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