Talk:Sergei Rachmaninoff

Personal life, character and wealth

I think a little elaboration on his personal life (siblings, marriage, offspring) would be appropriate. I don't have the necessary information, however. Maybe someone else? As far as I know, he had two daughters. See for instance the tv-documentary in the external links on the Villa Senar page. I would also like a description of his personal appearance, his personality. In the introduction to the documentary on Swiss television (SRF), the presenter said that he was over 200 cm (6ft6) tall. Is that true? In the film, one of the interviewees says that you only need to look at his pictures to understand that there was nothing artificial or mundane about him, that he was an aristocrat at heart and that he was refinement all over. And that he was a family man. I would like to know more, with sources. (I don't have them.) And would it be appropriate to mention something about his wealth? When he moved to the US, he bought an apartment on the WestSide of Manhattan with a view on the Hudson River. Must have cost something. And in the film it is mentioned that he bought a couple of acres in Switzerland near Lucerne in 1930 to have his private villa build there, with a park around it. That must also have cost quite a few $. When he moved to California in 1942, he bought a house in Beverly Hills. Same story. I read somewhere that his grandson Alexandre Rachmaninoff, who was the last owner of the Villa Senar, was exceptionally rich. Wasn't he featured in Variety or Vanity Fair or Harper's Bazaar during his lifetime? Hansung02 (talk) 18:23, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

I checked out where he lived in Moscow, from his statue there. Just around the corner from the Bolshoi theatre, and, in the present day, a lot of embassies and four-star hotels.(GoogleMaps) That looks like the expensive part of town.Hansung02 (talk) 21:42, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

We discuss his marriage in the second paragraph of the "Recovery, emergence, and conducting" section, and the article does touch on his daughters (although it currently doesn't mention the birth of his second daughter, which could potentially be added). I'm not sure how much there would be to say about his family life, or his personality, and a discussion of his wealth is unlikely to be appropriate. With regards to his height, Young 1986, p. 1625 states that he was 193 cm, which is indeed tall, but probably isn't noteworthy enough to be mentioned. Rachmaninoff is notable primarily as a composer (and secondarily as a pianist), and this is what most sources focus on; our article should be a reflection of that. – Michael Aurel (talk) 23:10, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

In most articles on famous artists (musicians, painters, architects etc.) there is a section "Personal life" with details on bachelor or married status (for instance it appears to be noteworthy that Moussorgsky never married), details on the spouse and possible children (for instance Picasso), whereabouts (some fans like to visit the places where their idol once lived), burial place (that is mentioned here), and someone's character or personality: I myself am interested in not only what a great professional somebody was, if that is what they are remembered for, but also who the person was as a human being. For instance in the Ken Russell film on Delius, it appears that Delius in his old age was a terrible man, a despot, a tyrant, and that is an image quite different from what you get when you listen to his music. That's why it is interesting to know who someone really was as a person, not as a celebrity. By the way, in his lifetime Rachmaninoff was primarily known as a formidable pianist, and second as a composer. His reputation as a composer grew after his death. I think. I agree that a discussion of his wealth is inappropriate, I'm sorry I brought that up. However the wealth of his grandson Alexandre is mentioned in the Swiss documentary in one of the external links. And his heigth is mentioned specifically by the presenter of the Swiss documentary, indicating that that was something exceptional, especially taking into account that we are talking about almost a century ago when a man measuring 193 cm was a curiosity: the average European adult male was about 175 cm tall in those days. Funny that on screen he doesn't look so much taller than his wife; taller yes but not 30 cms. In the Swiss documentary there are a lot of photos on the wall and film sequences with him and his family around the villa. Hansung02 (talk) 17:39, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

You appear to be arguing that such personal information would be useful or interesting. Surely it would, but that's not how Wikipedia articles work. We summarize secondary sources, so we'd have to identify that such information is actually discussed prominently in secondary sources to be worth inclusion. For instance, Boulez is famous for his dogmatic character, and since it has been much discussed, there's a section on it in his article.

"Personal life" sections are not typical for composer articles at all; both of the articles you site, Moussorgsky and Delius, don't have such sections. In terms of family-related info, Rachmaninoff's family is virtually unknown and I see no reason to have a separate section discussing them. As for a section on personality/character, again, we'd have to identify its inclusion in secondary sources, which does seem more likely.

in his lifetime Rachmaninoff was primarily known as a formidable pianist, and second as a composer–this doesn't really mean anything for our article on him. Again, we follow secondary sources, not primary. Aza24 (talk) 19:28, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for your explanation. I'll see what I can find in the books and articles cited. Hansung02 (talk) 17:18, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

I'd like to note that wikipedia has a separate ARTICLE on the appearance of Mozart. :) 86.63.168.150 (talk) 22:58, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

That's what I mean ;-)! Hansung02 (talk) 16:29, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

"...the articles you site, Moussorgsky and Delius..." I didn't cite any articles; I mentioned Mussorgsky from what I read about him in Collins' Encylopedia of Music, edition 1977, and I mentioned a Ken Russell biopic on Delius, from 1963, not an article. Hansung02 (talk) 16:28, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

"Range or length" of melodies

The article claims that "his melodies did not have the range or length of Tchaikovsky's", this seems to be objectively false. The main theme of the first movement of the 2nd concerto is very long, and the 3rd concerto counterpart takes 17 bars to reach the highest note of the melody line. This is not a fanboy comment, I don't like either of the composers very much, but this is just plainly wrong. Not to mention that Tchaikovsky wrote plenty of short melodies, the Romeo and Juliet theme is like five notes long. 86.63.168.150 (talk) 22:31, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

See the cited source (Walsh 1973, p. 15), which states: As a melodist, Rachmaninoff was much influenced by Tchaikovsky. But he was greatly Tchaikovsky's inferior in the range and variety of his tunes; and in learning from the older composer he seems to have been over-impressed by the cantabile mechanism which underlies Tchaikovsky's best lyrical inspiration -the step-wise motion and sensuous orchestration-while being unable to follow its immense intervallic span and extensive growth in time. Typically, Rachmaninoff's melodic periods are short, and there is a tendency to revolve round pivotal notes in descending sequence, whereas the typical Tchaikovsky progression is an ascending one. The long aspiring tunes of the Fifth Symphony, Francesca da Rimini, Hamlet and the Pathitique have few if any parallels in Rachmaninoff. – Michael Aurel (talk) 23:32, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

It's a pretty old source and a pretty bold bit of analysis. Can we attribute?

"Tchaikovsky was also particularly influential on Rachmaninoff's melodic writing, though musicologist Stephen Walsh describes Rachmaninoff's melodies as lacking the range or length of Tchaikovsky's.

Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 23:51, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Sure. – Michael Aurel (talk) 23:59, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Done. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 01:04, 24 February 2024 (UTC)