Talk:Race and intelligence

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Former good article nomineeRace and intelligence was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
June 14, 2005Articles for deletionKept
June 24, 2005Peer reviewReviewed
July 18, 2005Featured article candidateNot promoted
August 25, 2006Good article nomineeNot listed
December 4, 2006Articles for deletionKept
April 11, 2011Articles for deletionKept
February 24, 2020Deletion reviewOverturned
February 29, 2020Articles for deletionKept
Current status: Former good article nominee

Lead References

Sad socks :( Generalrelative (talk) 06:37, 31 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Hi @Grayfell: why did you delete the references? ETDS554 (talk) 04:30, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

ETDS554, Grayfell was right to revert your edit. Per MOS:LEADCITE, it is not necessary to supply references in the lead when they are supplied in the article body. In a case like the present article, where the number of possible citations is very extensive, including only a few may give the reader the false impression that these are the only ones available to support the claims of the lead. Given that the topic of this article is very controversial as well, the weight of that concern is all the more pronounced. I hope that makes sense. Generalrelative (talk) 04:39, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I see that you also added a reference to the Washington Post, which violates the special sourcing requirements for this page. This page has a special restriction where we are only supposed to use peer-reviewed academic sources. That may have been why Grayfell identified your edit summary as misleading. Generalrelative (talk) 04:43, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
In that case I suggest having two or three references per statement in the lead. Many of the readers are just going to read the lead for a quick glimpse at the subject, it would be good for them to have at least a sample of the best resources in the literature. ETDS554 (talk) 04:59, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree on that one, since the guideline is clear that it can go either way based on local consensus as to whether lead citations are appropriate or not for each article. Perhaps others will show up who agree with you that the status quo should be overturned. Generalrelative (talk) 05:09, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Was there a talk page section about this at any point? I found it weird because a colleague told me the lead used to have references but no longer did. She also told me she wanted to improve this article but some white supremacist was blocking her. ETDS554 (talk) 05:32, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Yup, it's been discussed numerous times. See e.g. this one and the following thread. There isn't a strong consensus either way, but there is a longstanding status quo, which is considered WP:IMPLICIT. Re. your colleague: this is a tricky concern to discuss. On the one hand, this article definitely attracts a lot of white supremacists eager to push their fringe views into article space (or just rant about them on the talk page). However, one of our core behavioral policies is "assume good faith". That's not just a recommendation but a requirement. Unless someone outright proves that they are not acting in good faith, we will bend over backwards to assume that they are. Look through the talk page archives and you will see. So I'm not sure what your friend is referring to specifically. Several years ago there were some known white supremacists who exerted undue influence on this article, but they've since been blocked (though a few sad sacks keep on creating WP:SOCKPUPPETs). If your friend's edits were more recent, it could very well be that she made some well intentioned attempts to improve the article and mistook good-faith resistance for white supremacism. In any case the proper thing to do would have been to bring her concerns here or to a noticeboard like WP:FTN. Since the latest RfC in 2021, calmer heads have essentially prevailed. I hope that's helpful. Generalrelative (talk) 06:03, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Hello. To clarify, the edit added sources, but it also changed the meaning of the article by adding an anachronistic claim that race and intelligence was being discussed since since at least them times of Aristotle. Since this claim is controversial and disputed it is misleading to present this with the edit summary "WP:ILC". It is also a typo, but that would be an easy fix. The added source makes an interesting point, but it's an extreme over-reach to say it claims or even suggests that Aristotle viewed human groups as 'races' in the modern sense of the word. If I'm wrong and Matthew A. Sears is claiming that Aristotle's view of races is the same as the modern one, we need a source where he explicitly claims that, and we would need to contextualize it against the mountain of existing sources which dispute it. Grayfell (talk) 07:02, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Since Aristotle

Sad socks :( Generalrelative (talk) 06:38, 31 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

These ideas are much older than the "modern concept of race" Aristotle is the first major thinker I am aware of. I can find peer-reviewed sources for that one. ETDS554 (talk) 05:54, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Please do. But note that the concept of "race" didn't really exist in the ancient world, at least according to most scholars. That's why both here and in the History of the race and intelligence controversy article we begin with the modern period. You'd need some pretty high-level sources to persuade us otherwise. Generalrelative (talk) 06:05, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Feel free to delete this whole section. Doug Weller talk 20:02, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Polygenic scores

Sad socks :( Generalrelative (talk) 06:40, 31 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Hi @MrOllie:, why did you revert my edit? ETDS554 (talk) 18:02, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I suspect you already know: Polygenic scores have been the intense focus of sockpuppet accounts, as detailed in the talk page archives. MrOllie (talk) 18:04, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Is that also the reason my colleague could not add them? I am sorry white supremacist desperately cling to any new scientific findings to justify their biases but that does not mean certain topics need to be salted from the encyclopedia ETDS554 (talk) 18:19, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Aha, so you're white supremacist long-term abuser User:Fq90 again. How boring. Generalrelative (talk) 18:26, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Should IQ test figures be included?

I would like to include the following:

The Bell Curve, by Richard J. Herrnstein and Charles Murray, lists figures of 105 for Northeast Asians, 100 for North and Central Europeans, 92-96 for South Europeans, 91 for Arctic peoples, 90 for Maoris, 89 for American Hispanics, 86 for Native Americans, 85 for Pacific Islanders, 84 for South Asians, 83 for North Africans, 71 for Sub-Saharan Africans, 62 for Australian Aborigines, 57 for Pygmies, and 55 for Bushmen.

Generalrelative reverted this edit, with the argument being that it is WP:UNDUE and WP:PRIMARY. However, I don't see how the edit gives undue weight to any particular source, since The Bell Curve is one of the most well-known publications in the field. In addition, it is a secondary source which summarizes primary source research in the field. What do people here think? Wiki Crazyman (talk) 23:01, 21 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Firstly, we shouldn't cite any source that old for data. And secondly, The Bell Curve is a deeply controversial source, and both its methodology and conclusions have been subject to heavy criticism from the scientific community. So no, the figures don't belong in the article. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:22, 21 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

RfC on racial hereditarianism at Talk:Eyferth study

Clueful editors are invited to participate at Talk:Eyferth study#Request for comment on hereditarianism subsection. Generalrelative (talk) 07:53, 14 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]