Talk:Post-classical history

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Former good article nomineePost-classical history was a History good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
September 6, 2018Peer reviewReviewed
November 23, 2022Peer reviewReviewed
June 10, 2023Good article nomineeNot listed
Current status: Former good article nominee

Request for comment[edit]

This RFC is about restructuring this page so it talks about the term. Levivich suggested this approach over at Talk:Timeline_of_the_Middle_Ages#Requested_move_16_December_2020. Instead of the periodization system, we could use something like Timeline of the first millennium or History of the first millennium and Timeline of the second millennium or History of the second millennium. We could also add CE to the titles for clarification. I would like to get ideas on how we should structure this page and the related pages. Thanks, Interstellarity (talk) 17:40, 22 December 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I suggest you don't try to sneak a WP:ERA change through at the same time as this stuff! The article uses "AD" at present. Johnbod (talk) 20:16, 16 January 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
As you know, though, what the article currently uses is irrelevant concerning any contentions over which WP:ERA concention is used: the general rule is to use the convention that was used in the first revision after the article ceased being a stub. Now, in this article's case determining precisely when that happened is not entirely cut-and-dried; however, the earliest versions of the article that were clearly "not stubs" did not use AD or CE at all, and this had been the case since the article was still "a stub". Here is the earliest non-stub revision that uses an era label, and it uses CE. (That revision still has the stub hatnote at the bottom of the page, but the article is clearly not a stub; when the stub note was removed the article still used CE). Therefore, if anyone wishes to change AD to CE in this article, they ought to have licence to do so (and I can't think of any compelling reason for why AD and not CE should be used in this article, like there could be if, say, if the article topic was something like "Christianity in the East after the Fall of Constantinople" or whatever). Firejuggler86 (talk) 06:26, 11 May 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I think this page (or at least the title for what is presently on the page) is of limited use. The periodization adopted, purportedly for "world" history, is at variance with the existence of scholarly periodization of the pre-Columbian Mesoamerican cultures, in which the Classical is roughly 250–900 CE, and the Postclassical 900–1521. What's more, the troubling lack of "late antiquity" and the failure to distinguish between "late antiquity" and "early middle ages" makes the confusion worse. GPinkerton (talk) 03:46, 23 December 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Entirely agreed.  — SMcCandlish ¢ 😼  19:55, 16 January 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Well, Late Antiquity and the Early Middle Ages aren't easily distinguished - nor should they be! ;) The two 'periods' largely - perhaps even mostly - overlap. They are not to be thought of as discrete epochs, with set beginning and end dates, with no overlap at all. Late antiquity refers to aspects of the ancient world that carried on into the period: e.g., the Roman Senate, which existed in a form into the 8th Century; chariot races, in the Eastern Empire, also until around that time. And likewise, for example, the establishment of English Britain in the 5th century could be called the Early Middle Ages, or the Frankish kingdoms on the continent...hope that made sense. Firejuggler86 (talk) 13:40, 21 January 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
One of the definitions we have about the end of late antiquity, equates it with the reign of Charlemagne. This would likely mean that the rest of the history of the Carolingian Empire is out of scope. Dimadick (talk) 09:43, 22 January 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The title is just wrong for the Americas, sub-Saharan Africa and Oceania. These sections should be floated off somewhere under appropriate titles. For example the section on "africa" has Medieval Africa as its "main article", but that just redirects to a bit of History of Africa where the stuff here would on a quick look form a useful overview. The "Old World" remainder is (noting GPinkerton's points) reasonably coherent, and useful for people wanting that sort of approach. It needs a different title, perhaps Post-classical history of the Old World or Post-classical history of Eurasia. The article isn't in a "timeline" format, & I don't think using that helps. Alternativwely, one might keep the whole thing under some different title - World history 500 to 1500, and clarify in the text where this is "post-classical" and where it isn't. This is the least work (which I would be willing to do). Johnbod (talk) 20:05, 16 January 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Johnbod The folowing citation adresses exactly what you are talking about, and in fact global historians are working on including areas outside of Eurasia into a global history of the period. In addition, I would oppose and am highly skeptical of any attempt to remove these margilnized areas (in terms of histography) from this world history page. To remove them would almost mean to say that nothing happened in those areas at this time or that those cultures were not human. Finally, the lead section discusses global history trends that effected all areas to an extent. Thanks for your (old comment) and have a nice day! Sunriseshore (talk) 17:19, 4 October 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hello everyone, I think the situation should be kept is, unless Wikipedia is going to jinx itself out of World History articles altogether. Remember, that World History courses exist around the world that find ways to speak of different regions in the same time period. I believe the article already forewarns readers about the historiography of the New World, and if not that could be included. This article is meant as a summary for world history in this period, ideally for those who are not very familiar with the content. Thank you -Sunriseshore

B or Good Article[edit]

Hello everyone, For editors tt come here please state below. What would make this article eldgible for a B rating, or a higher evaluation? What should be done to cross the threashold? Thanks in dvance for any feedback.Sunriseshore (talk) 17:48, 1 October 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

You know what? I am going to nominate this for a featured article, I realize the vote will be an overwhelming no, but at least it will get some attention. Sunriseshore (talk) 20:15, 3 October 2022 (UTC). I made a peer review!Reply[reply]

Requested move 6 October 2022[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Extraordinary Writ (talk) 21:21, 16 October 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Post-classical history → ? – This title seems to be rarely used in reliable sources. More reliable sources use Middle Ages for global history, but that is reserved for European history. I don't know what the best title is for this article, but I don't think it is this one since we title Wikipedia articles based on usage in reliable sources. Interstellarity (talk) 13:53, 6 October 2022 (UTC)\Reply[reply]

  • Oppose

I am afraid I must flatly disagree with you on all counts. I actually just finished adding many new sources last night, in fact many university departments around the country, the college board and Cambridge University all use the term Post-Classical. Though its true sometimes medieval is used synomonously. Sunriseshore (talk) 15:20, 6 October 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Some reliable sources for you!

  • Z., Ḳedar, B., The Cambridge World History Expanding webs of exchange and conflict, 500 CE-1500 CE
  • "Pre-AP World History and Geography – Pre-AP | College Board
  • Periodization in World History: Challenges and Opportunities". In R. Charles Weller (ed.). 21st-Century Narratives of World History: Global and Multidisciplinary Perspectives

So are famous historians, College Board, Berkley and Cambrige University not reliable sources? I think I rest my case. The truth is (as stated earlier here) is that periodization is indeed difficult. But Post Classical has been used to describe history after 500 CE for over half a century in academic circles. In addition histoirans at this time on working on making a globalized history of the period more than often using the term 'post-classical. What about medieval? Well besides being primairly a European term its usage is also mentioned on this page already.

I appreciate your interest, and I have seen some of your statments on other talk pages and I would appreciate any help with this page

But, I will not support a name change of the article, especially a change that would cause a transfer to anything with the word 'medieval', again medieval on Wikipedia means European and there is already a featured article that uses the term 'Middle Ages' for Europe. There are many sources supporting the usage of Post-Classical here.

Sunriseshore (talk) 15:33, 6 October 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • Timothy Reuter wrote a great article, "Medieval: Another Tyrannous Construct?" (The Medieval History Journal 1, 1 [1998]: 25–45), in which he demonstrates that while in practice the term "Middle Ages" is reserved for Europe, the term "medieval" is used more or less unproblematically by historians of India, China, Africa, etc. Still, I think treating "medieval" and "Middle Ages" differently here would only cause confusion. One option would be to move this to the fashionable new term Global Middle Ages (already a redirect here). Another alternative to "post-classical" is the not-quite-synonymous "post-axial", which I don't recommend, although it has the advantage of being more conceptually coherent than "post-classical" or "medieval". Srnec (talk) 20:51, 6 October 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
But are any of these actually better here? Johnbod (talk) 01:42, 7 October 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Oppose — too difficult to come up with any better or more widely used alternative. Another "Middle Ages" or similar variant would be too confusing; sinologists, for instance, use "medieval" very differently (End of the Han dynasty to the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms period). Aza24 (talk) 05:31, 10 October 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    There is actually a source in the article that talks about this! There are some similarities between early medieval europe and the Three Kingdoms but the differences become more important later. (China comes back together again) Sunriseshore (talk) 06:24, 10 October 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Oppose The nom's assertion it is "rarely used" is not accurate. Anything with medieval or middle ages is going to be problematic. I kind of like Global Middle Ages but unclear what's behind that term ie. where did it originate who uses it who dislikes it etc.. -- GreenC 13:18, 10 October 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@GreenC The topic of global middle ages is certainly interesting, there are some publications using this term recently but there are also books incuding the Cambridge publication I already cited here using Post-Classsical and for sure Post-Classical has been used more consistently and frequently. I think about talking in more detail about the term Global Middle Ages in the top of the article but that would requrie sourcng that I am not sure exists. Sunriseshore (talk) 17:42, 10 October 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

That's what I assumed it is too new and unestablished. It will be interesting to see how it develops. I never liked post-classical as it feels like a footnote to classical and that plays into the bias against the middle ages which is pretty common. It would be like renaming the classical period "post-Bronze Age period". -- GreenC 03:50, 11 October 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Per the lead paragraph, this article is about medieval civilizations. The category deletion discussion Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2022 October 29#Category:Medieval civilizations is pretty poorly argued, hinging on a debate over the meaning of 'civilization', rather than what professional historiography says on this topic. "Medieval civilizations" is a common phrase found in Encyclopedia Britannica and elsewhere. -- GreenC 23:57, 6 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Did you know nomination[edit]

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: rejected by BorgQueen (talk) 19:16, 4 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • ... that many historians theorize that the human world was split into three separate areas before 1500 including Oceania, Eurasia, and the Americas? Source: Towards a Global Middle Ages , Past & Present, 238 (November 2018), 1-44 (p. 16)
    • Reviewed:

5x expanded by Sunriseshore (talk). Self-nominated at 00:04, 4 January 2023 (UTC).Reply[reply]

  • Sorry, this doesn't qualify for DYK at all. The 5x expansion is supposed to take place over a very short period; you have been working on this for 4 years. You might try for GA. Also, it is WP:TOOLONG at 198k raw bytes. A minor detail kis that you are supposed to work the title into the hook. Johnbod (talk) 00:20, 4 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Ineligible per Johnbod. BorgQueen (talk) 10:25, 4 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Ok Thanks :) Sunriseshore (talk) 03:19, 10 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

NB: The note about it being too long is not quite right. Per WP:SIZERULE, this is measured in readable prose size (not raw kb), for which the page is 62kb. Iskandar323 (talk) 05:27, 10 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

GAN/referencing issues[edit]

This article has many [excessive citations] and [page needed] issues. You generally cannot cite an entire book for a piece of information because the reader does not know how to find it in the cited source. Instead, provide a page range with {{sfn}} or {{rp}}. When citing an edited work like Kedar & Wiesner-Hanks 2015, it's important to credit the author of the contribution rather than the editors (see examples on The Holocaust#Book chapters ), and again in that case page numbers are needed. (t · c) buidhe 20:11, 6 June 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

GA Review[edit]

This review is transcluded from Talk:Post-classical history/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Wretchskull (talk · contribs) 09:42, 10 June 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Sorry Sunriseshore, but I have to quickfail this article per WP:GAFAIL criteria 3, as it "has, or needs, cleanup banners that are unquestionably still valid" (my emphasis). There are numerous sentences and entire paragraphs without refs.

Looking forward, take a look at WP:TWL; apart from journals, I suggest you search books within the available publications (so not the main TWL search bar), and you will find an enormous reserviore of high-quality, reliable sources to help you out. I also recommend diversity in your sources, as the article seems a little too dependent on Berger et al., and some refs aren't as reliable as academic books and journals, such as the websites referenced. The article also has some minor MOS issues, such as inconsistencies in serial comma use, etc. You can sort them out when you feel GA criteria two and three have been met.

Middle Ages is and exellent article for inspiration, and I suggest you take a look at its structure, prose, topic breadth, and sources. Once you're satisfied with the body, summarize its sections in the lede in succinct, well-written paragraphs (preferably four) that cover the most important information.

If you feel you've done everything needed to meet the GA criteria, read through the previous peer review and make sure all concerns have been amended before GAN, and matters will hopefully work out smoothly. Good luck! Wretchskull (talk) 09:42, 10 June 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I appreicate your review, I understand your decision.
I also agreeded and made some changes as suggested in the GA review, however I did not agree with all of them and I justified my position with sources. I do not think a single critic is always right and I think I proved my point back there.
Do you have a specific problem with using Berger as a source, and if so what sources would you prefer to be incuded in the article?
I am happy to look for and solve the MOS issues as soon as possible.
I have looked at Middle Ages many times already, I tried to learn from the article as much as possible without compromising this article.
That being said I am dissapointed this quick fail and was applied without further discussion. I do not think you went about this in the right way.
Best Regards. Sunriseshore (talk) 23:05, 11 June 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Hello Sunriseshore. Per WP:GAFAIL, GANs are quickfailed if they have serious sourcing issues, in this case due to existing or needed [citation needed]-tags. The article contains numerous sentences and paragraphs without any refs. Regarding Berger, I'm not necessarily against it, it's just that the article is too dependent on this source when there are countless other books and journals with equal authority. I highly recommend removing all web sources plus some Berger citations and replacing them with other existing books referenced, or with whatever you can get your hands on from WP:TWL. Everything you could possibly need exists there. Searching "Post-classical history" without any filters shows close to 3000 academic journals (but sort these by peer-reviewed) and 72 books.
Besides, I have reservations about topic breadth and coverage, although I'm not at all an expert so giving my two cents doesn't do this justice, and I could be wrong. My intuition says it's probably best to contact the FA contributors of middle ages, namely Ealdgyth and Johnbod, who I dare say know a thing or two about this subject. Wretchskull (talk) 11:01, 12 June 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The advice here given is contradictory Buidhe says there are too many citations but wreck says there are not enough. I think Buidhe's suggestions make sense to a degree but I don't quite agree with Wreck still- I have gone over every section there are no paragraphs with 'no citations' there are cases where citations are more spread out but that was in case where the same source is being used to support said information. -Sunriseshore. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FEA8:721:9800:A136:AD33:EE5:91A2 (talk) 14:39, 13 June 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]