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Emilian Makhno was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 27 May 2022 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Nestor Makhno. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here.
"Unable to feed his family on their small plot of land, following Nestor's birth, Ivan Mikhnenko went to work as a coachman for a wealthy industrialist" - suggest "Following Nestor's birth, Ivan Mikhnenko went to work as a coachman for a wealthy industrialist, since he could not feed his family from their small plot of land"
"After the summer, Nestor returned to school," - here and elswhere in this part of the article I'd expect to see the surname being used. Is there a particular reason to use Nestor?
Usually it's because of close proximity to his family members. So "Nestor" is used in the early life section and when his brothers are mentioned later, as "Makhno" could be more ambiguous. --Grnrchst (talk) 12:58, 6 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I've re-read inserting Makhno for Nestor and I think in pretty much all cases you could make the switch (not for example "leaving only the young Nestor and Hryhorii with their mother") but happy to see what other reviewers say. Mujinga (talk) 11:47, 7 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Czar seems to have agreed with you on this, so most of the uses of "Nestor" in early life have been replaced with "Makhno". --Grnrchst (talk) 07:58, 24 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
"As the rest of the group's members had been outlawed" - not 100% sure what this means - the group itself had been outlawed and/or everyone else had gone underground?
OK so they had been sentenced in absentia? still trying to work out if they went underground by choice or because they were charged/wanted Mujinga (talk) 11:49, 7 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
They went underground because they were wanted. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:17, 8 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
so maybe say that or say who they had been outlawed by? Mujinga (talk) 14:41, 8 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Said they were "outlawed by the Tsarist authorities". Let me know if I need to clarify further. --Grnrchst (talk) 16:49, 19 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
"launched a crackdown against the anarchist group " - could just say "group"
"Makhno's frequent boasting in prison earned him the nickname "Modest"" - sidecomment that's hilarious!
Aye, I do like a good ironic nickname. --Grnrchst (talk) 13:13, 6 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
"The disease kept him returning to the prison hospital throughout his sentence" - sounds odd, suggest "Throughout his sentence he spent periods in the prison hospital" or similar
"became disillusioned with intellectualism after seeing the differences between how the prison guards treated the intellectual prisoners and those inmates from the lower classes" - i see what you are wanting to say, i think, but would prefer the second "intellectual" to be changed for something else
yeah sorry maybe i don't see what you mean haha! at the moment it seems to me you are setting up difference between clever prisoners and lower class idiots, whereas i assume that you want to say the higher class prisoners were treated better than illiterate prisoners or something like that? Mujinga (talk) 11:50, 7 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Aye it's a class thing, the "intellectuals" had a background as members of the more educated middle/upper-class. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:19, 8 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
so its currently "also became disillusioned with intellectualism after seeing the differences between how the prison guards treated the intellectual prisoners and those inmates from the lower classes", I'd suggest something like "also became disillusioned with intellectualism after seeing the class prejudice with which guards treated different prisoners", if that still summarises up the source Mujinga (talk) 14:42, 8 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Rewritten based on your suggestion, with a couple adjustments. --Grnrchst (talk) 15:41, 11 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
your version works for me, nice one Mujinga (talk) 19:04, 11 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
"When the prison doors were flung open during the February Revolution of 1917,[48] Makhno was released from bondage for the first time in eight years, even finding himself off-balance without the chains weighing him down[46] and in need of sunglasses after years in dark prison cells" - this feels a bit sensationalist with "flung open", "released from bondage" and "even"
Re-written to hopefully be a bit more neutral. --Grnrchst (talk) 13:13, 6 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
"Makhno called for the local bourgeoisie to be disarmed and their property expropriated, with all private enterprise to be brought under workers' control. Peasants withheld rent and took control of the lands they worked. Large estates collectivized and transformed into agrarian communes. Makhno personally organized communes on former Mennonite estates" - this feels a bit choppy, suggest joining up some sentences
Joined the two middle sentences. --Grnrchst (talk) 13:13, 6 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
that reads better and i've substituted in two "he"s which I'm fine with you changing back if you don't like, it just flowed funny for me with so many "Makhno"s Mujinga (talk) 11:54, 7 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
"he organized the town bank's expropriation to fund their revolutionary activities " - who is "their" referring to here?
which anarchists? if it's the "armed anarchist detachment to assist the Bolsheviks" it's ok, otherwise needs explaining Mujinga (talk) 11:55, 7 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Mujinga: It's referring to the anarchist movement in Huliaipole. I clarified to "local anarchist movement". Let me know if it still needs work. --Grnrchst (talk) 15:47, 11 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
"Makhno's detachment withdrew north, where it sought refuge in the Dibrivka forest, neighbouring the village of Velykomykhailivka.[129] There they joined forces with another small insurgent detachment led by Fedir Shchus.[130] Austrian units encircled the insurgents in their forest encampment.[131] To break the encirclement, Makhno launched a surprise counterattack against the troops in the village.[132]" - good summary but again a bit choppy, suggest joining some sentences
Joined the last two sentences. --Grnrchst (talk) 13:35, 6 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
"When Austrian units encircled the insurgents in their forest encampment, to break the encirclement," - suggest surrounded for "encircled" because you also have "encirclement" Mujinga (talk) 11:57, 7 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
the insurgents bestowed Makhno with the title Bat'ko (English: Father) - ah so prob give the translation earlier for Batko Ivan as well
The reason I didn't give the translation earlier for Ivan is because he's just referred to by Skirda as "Batko Ivan", without explanation for what "Batko" means. --Grnrchst (talk) 13:35, 6 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I see your logic but I think within the context of this article it's weird to have Batko 1 not defined one first mention 2 written in different ways Mujinga (talk) 11:58, 7 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
"To resolve the dispute, Makhno invited Vladimir Antonov-Ovseenko to visit Huliaipole, which impressed the Ukrainian commander-in-chief and allayed his concerns about Makhno's command." if as the pic caption says Antonov-Ovseenko was himself the "commander-in-chief of the Ukrainian Soviet Army" this needs rephrasing since i thought " the Ukrainian commander-in-chief " referred to someone else
Clarified to "Ukrainian Soviet Army's commander-in-chief". How's that? --Grnrchst (talk) 13:35, 6 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
"His reports quickly attracted Lev Kamenev" - can you clarify who Kamenev is
Described as "Politburo member". How's that? --Grnrchst (talk) 13:35, 6 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
yeah great that shows why he is worthy of mention Mujinga (talk) 11:59, 7 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
"In May 1919, the powerful otaman " - link otaman to ataman and/or define it?
" and even labeling him a "kulak"" - I was surprised by "labeling" not "labelling" since I had settled into thinking this was BrEng but it is indeed USEng. This then means it should be neighboring in "Makhno's detachment withdrew north, where it sought refuge in the Dibrivka forest, neighbouring the village of Velykomykhailivka", saber for sabre, defense for defence, criticize for criticise, traveled for travelled and so on
Ach, sorry about this. Although I'm theoretically a native writer of British English, I often find it difficult remembering the differences between the two. So while the article has the "Use American English" tag, I would have written it largely in British English. What should I do? --Grnrchst (talk) 13:35, 6 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Oh no worries this is the sort of thing that comes out in FA review when all the microscopes come out :) Per MOS:RETAIN if the "Use American English" tag was there first you should keep it... unless you have a particularly persuasive rationale Mujinga (talk) 12:03, 7 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Kulak is mentioned earlier thus should be linked first time round and maybe here too. also I'd suggest using Template:Lang per MOS:FOREIGNITALIC. And there's no doubt other instances of foreign words that could use this too, eg sotnia
done for the first part, second part not done which is ok for me as long as you are consistent. if you did want to do it, you'd need to do other terms eg Makhnovshchina Mujinga (talk) 12:05, 7 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Another point courtesy of the WMF Cloud/Tools Lab peer reviewer: Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (numbers), there should be a non-breaking space - between a number and the unit of measurement. For example, instead of 520 kilometers, use 520 kilometers, which when you are editing the page, should look like: 520 kilometers.
"Makhno thus relinquished command of the 7th Ukrainian Soviet Division and declared his intention to wage a guerrilla war against the Whites from the rear.[180] Trotsky then ordered Kliment Voroshilov to arrest Makhno, but sympathetic officers reported the order to him, thus preventing his capture by the Cheka" 2x thus, not sure if either is needed
I'd prefer a definition prbably but I'm fine with you waitign to see if other reviewers flag it up. Just to add on kulak, I don't think I noticed before that it is first linked as a pipe via wealthier land-owning class - I suggest keeping Kulak lined but put "wealthier land-owning class" in brackets or similar Mujinga (talk) 12:08, 7 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
"where he met with Hryhoriv's green army." - sidecomment bloimey green as well on top of blacks, whites and reds!??
It's one of the nice things about the post-revolutionary factions, they're all colour-coded :P --Grnrchst (talk) 13:35, 6 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
query - makhno is also considered a green leader by our wikiarticle, does that need bringing out more? as i read the article now he seems separate to the greens ... also if makhno's forces were called the Revolutionary Insurgent Army of Ukraine then this term should be used a bit more in the article, since it's in the lead but not really used in the body
To be honest, the term "green army" is rather vaguely defined, as it was used to refer to many different autonomous peasant formations. I've added a first case of Revolutionary Insurgent Army of Ukraine, but because it's quite a long name, I use "insurgent army" and "insurgents" for concision (as do the sources). --Grnrchst (talk) 13:35, 6 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
cool on green, and I like what you've done for the RIAU Mujinga (talk) 12:10, 7 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
caption "Nykyfor Hryhoriv (left), otaman of the green army in Kherson, who would be assassinated during a meeting with Makhno" is good, i'm just wondering if it's Antonov-Ovseenko on the right?
It is, should I mention that in the caption? I left it because Hryhoriv is more relevant to this section. --Grnrchst (talk) 13:35, 6 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
ummm I guess? or use the chopped version which is just him? i mean it's not a huge issue, just seems worth mentioning it since Antonov-Ovseenko was described just above Mujinga (talk) 12:11, 7 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
"begging him to subordinate himself again to Bolshevik command, to which Makhno refused" - remove "to" from "to which", or replace with "a request which"?
"comrade Batko Makhno" - another mention of Batko, when we have Bat'ko in lead
This is down to different transliterations of "батько", as the "ь" is often either transliterated as an apostrophe or dropped. Avrich 1988, Darch 2020, Footman 1961, Palij 1976 and Patterson 2020 use "Bat'ko", whereas Chamberlin 1987, Kantowicz 1999, Malet 1982, Peters 1970, Shubin 2010, Skirda 2004 and Sysyn 1977 use "Batko". As this quote was pulled from Peters and Skirda, "Batko" is used. Should I standardise it? And if so, how do I handle it when quoting directly from a source? --Grnrchst (talk) 10:55, 8 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I'd suggest standardising in the text and making a note saying pretty much what you said here Mujinga (talk) 14:44, 8 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Mujinga: I've been thinking about how to implement this and remembered that there's actually already an explanatory footnote in the lead about the translation of "Bat'ko", so I could incorporate other sources into that. Is there a way to link to the same explanatory footnote multiple times in the same article? Because ideally I'd just reuse that for the other times the word pops up in the text. --Grnrchst (talk) 08:54, 13 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
For now I've standardised the usage to "Bat'ko". I'll have a look at this footnote documentation and see if I can wrap my head around it. --Grnrchst (talk) 16:39, 19 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
"The still-wounded Makhno stayed behind in Huliaipole anyway, along with his black guard" - Black Guard / black guard mentioned only on third appearance?
"Wrangel's defeat in Crimea by the combined" - maybe time for a link to Pyotr Wrangel? wow this is all getting very confusing, nice one for keeping it relatively clear!
Linked. And aye, there's a lot of moving parts in this history. It's not remotely close to the most complicated civil war I've come across though. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:55, 8 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I'm thinking around here you probably need another map to geolocate some of the important battles
I guess I could probably put in another request for a map, although I still haven't received any response on my request for one for the battle of Dibrivka article. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:55, 8 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Shame about the other request! I'd say to make this best possible article then a map would be very helpful. You could also look into making it yourself, I taught myself how to make this one at Securitas_depot_robbery#Robbery which probably isn't the prettiest map out there but passed FAc and hopefully helps people to orientate themselves in the events a bit Mujinga (talk) 14:48, 8 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
"they finally managed to shake off the pursuing Cossacks" - who is they here?
Makhno's detachment. Is that not clear? --Grnrchst (talk) 10:55, 8 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
that's what I expected but wouldn't a detachment be "it"? Mujinga (talk) 14:48, 8 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
"with only his black sotnia remaining" - black guard sotnia?
I think Makhno's "Black Guard" and his "black sotnia" were two terms for the same unit, but "black guard sotnia" isn't ever used in any of the sources... --Grnrchst (talk) 10:55, 8 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
" and almost running them out of ammo, before they were finally able to shake the armored detachment off their trail." - this feels a bit sensationalist? also ammunition for ammo?
Sensationalist how? I don't see it. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:55, 8 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
im not sure if ammo is acceptable and shaking a tail seems informal but if you think both/one are/is ok then i'm fine to wait to see what other reviewers think Mujinga (talk) 14:50, 8 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I've replaced "ammo" with "ammunition", but I still don't see the issue with the second part, so have left it as is for now. --Grnrchst (talk) 16:00, 11 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
sidecomment - starting to think this would make an excellent film
There's already a tv show actually! (Nine Lives of Nestor Makhno) It's fine by the standards of early 2000s Russian television, but it's nothing to write home about. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:56, 8 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
"one time even celebrating" - this is getting a bit sensationalist again with the good old days but I think I'd be satisfied just with the removal of "even"
"Schwarzbard immediately informed the Batko " - surely Makhno makes more sense here than Batko ... sidequery: was Makhno referring to people like Petliura when he said "amongst a foreign people and political enemies whom I have so often declaimed against." becuase until this point i saw Petliura and Makhno as allies, so if they fell out maybe that needs stating
Replaced "Batko" with "Makhno". As for Makhno's quote, I'm not sure who this is referring to specifically, the source doesn't clarify. I had assumed it was referring to French Communist Party members, but I could be wrong. As for Petliura, I wouldn't say he and Makhno were ever allies, they just weren't exactly enemies either. They signed a truce, more of a peace agreement than a proper alliance, when both were being attacked by the Whites. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:56, 8 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
" resulting in public debates on the matter" in Paris or all over Europe?
In Paris, although it may have involved people from around Europe. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:56, 8 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
since we've now had a few things written by Makhno I'm thinking a selected works section would be helpful for readers?
Some of his major work is already in the further reading section. I could move it if need be? --Grnrchst (talk) 11:56, 8 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
To me it makes sense, don't mind if you want to wait to see what other people think Mujinga (talk) 14:53, 8 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
"Alienated from many of the Russian and French anarchists in Paris" - purely by his behaviour or were there also doctrinal splits? becuase for example " April 1929, May Picqueray and other French anarchists established a "Makhno Solidarity Committee" to raise funds" - these guys still supported him
Well you know with anarchists, doctrinal splits and bad behaviour aren't mutually exclusive. :P Anyway, I think there may be some chronological confusion here. It was only by 1931 that he had truly broken with the French anarchists and shifted his attention towards Spain. I've shifted the paragraphs around to better reflect this. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:56, 8 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
ah ok then i read this "His ideological conflict with the synthesis anarchists escalate" - so something needs to be explained, is this still related to the Organizational Platform of the Libertarian Communists?
Aye, the synthesis anarchists were opposed to the Organizational Platform. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:56, 8 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
"Operations failed to help and" - "After several operations"?
"Vasetskaia was eventually forced to flee Huliaipole after being threatened by Black Guards" - huh so Black Guards are simply anarchist soldiers, I thought they were Makhnovist anarchist soldiers, then I read this sentence as meaning Vasetskaia was threatened by Makhno's own soldiers. Also "eventually" is unneeded
Aye I understand the confusion. "Black Guards" is a generic name for armed anarchist units, but when used earlier in the article, it was referring to Makhno's personal unit. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:56, 8 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
cool - as mentioned above, still needs linking on first mention Mujinga (talk) 14:54, 8 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
"and a leading figure in the Makhnovshchina.[315] With the defeat of the Makhnovshchina," - suggest changing one instance of Makhnovshchina
Changed second one to "Makhnovist movement". --Grnrchst (talk) 11:56, 8 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
"Although other biographers" - don't think "although" is doing much unless you want to run the sentences together
Appropriate although sad that the legacy ends up in the present day. Any recent updates?
Unfortunately Huliaipole is still being shelled on a daily basis by the Russian Armed Forces. There have certainly been updates, but none specifically related to Makhno as far as I know. If you want to see how the war has affected the city, and the legacy Makhno has left there, I'd highly recommend the Thickets documentary. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:56, 8 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
thanks for the recommendation! Mujinga (talk) 14:55, 8 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I like the see also section
I know a few more people that could probably be added there, if need be. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:56, 8 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Lead:
"He also played an important role in the development of platformism " - not sure if this is brought out in body
There's an entire paragraph about it. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:56, 8 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
platformism yes but i wasn't clear, I meant if you say he "played an important role" then that needs to be drawn out more in my opinion Mujinga (talk) 14:55, 8 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
i just noticed what you did there - yeah works for me! Mujinga (talk) 12:26, 17 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Organizational Platform of the General Union of Anarchists (Draft) is only mentioned in lead?
That's a different name for the Organizational Platform of the Libertarian Communists. As the "General Union of Anarchists" one is apparently a more accurate title, I've replaced the former with the latter. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:56, 8 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
i think you need a bit more about his exile in the lead - Poland isn't mentioned, and paris coudl have a couple more sentences about writing and disputes
Expanded. Let me know what you think. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:56, 8 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
oops forgot to reply on this one - yeah looks great now Mujinga (talk) 15:28, 8 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
"settled in Paris with his wife Halyna" - second wife? also Nastia Vasetskaia is not in infobox
I hadn't considered adding Vasetskaia to the infobox, as they were only married for a short period and she's not really independently notable. I can add her if it's necessary. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:56, 8 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
ummmm makes sense to me since the infobox would give the impression he was only married once Mujinga (talk) 14:56, 8 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
ok that completes the prose sweep, well done on keeping on top of such a long epic story! Mujinga (talk) 14:49, 7 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thanks the prose review, it has been very helpful! --Grnrchst (talk) 11:56, 8 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Cheers for saying that, I know the nitpicks can get annoying sometimes :) I've made answers to your answers again. I'm pretty close to supporting now but will prob wait on a few matters to see what other reviewers think once we've got things tied up here. Mujinga (talk) 14:58, 8 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I'm trying to answer the last of these comments. Apologies for not rounding this off sooner, health issues have interrupted most of my work and I'm trying my best not to stress myself out further. --Grnrchst (talk) 16:53, 19 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Oh no worries, real life should always come first, hope you feel better! I'll reply more back on the FAC page Mujinga (talk) 15:23, 20 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
CP: How did you find these archives where we see Makhno and his companions on a station platform?
Hélène Chatelain: It's a stroke of luck. I had heard that Makhno had been filmed alive, but I did not know where. I came across a film made by a director from Saint Petersburg, which showed a reel which came from Romania, a scoop, and suddenly I saw this scene. And thanks to friends from Moscow who know the archives well, I was able to find the footage that had been repatriated from Romania. It was the first alliance between Bolsheviks and insurgent peasants and the front camera was there. ... There are also the market plans because the cameramen like to take pictures. It is also interesting to see how we frame and what is done. And this film with Makhno, the first time we saw it, we went for a coffee because it was overwhelming. And we realize that many photos are actually prints of this film. There are archives everywhere. ... — Machine English translation of Chroniques Rebelles
If it's possible to find some detail on this published film, I imagine many of the Makhno images will clearly be proven as public domain. The source of this St. Petersburg film wasn't clear from the film's credits sequence. czar 19:07, 8 November 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
This article (doi:10.3406/homso.1998.3562) by Châtelain is freely available but doesn't appear to mention the footage. Might want to double check. (It would, however, serve as a good source on cultural depictions of Makhno over the years, apart from her own.) czar 19:20, 8 November 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Czar: Having seen the documentary, I actually already know which photo this is talking about. This is the still from the film. I imagine that means that this photograph may also be from the film (or taken at the same time), judging from all the people in the shot, how they're dressed and positioned. --Grnrchst (talk) 19:22, 8 November 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Any ideas on who the St. Petersburg director might be? czar 19:54, 8 November 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
"Director from Saint Petersburg" isn't much to go off tbh. We're still trying to find a needle in a haystack, that haystack is just slightly smaller now. --Grnrchst (talk) 20:03, 8 November 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
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Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Anarchism#A note on historical accuracy and misinformation czar 16:43, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
