Talk:Moura massacre

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On 22 June 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved from Moura Massacre to Siege and massacre of Moura. The result of the discussion was not moved.

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On 17 February 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved from Moura Massacre to Moura massacre. The result of the discussion was moved.

Massacre not “siege”[edit]

I don’t know where in the world someone came up with the idea that this was a “siege” (it wasn’t) but all sources call this a massacre. Please stop trying to rename the article unless you can show that there’s a preponderance of sources calling this a “siege”. Volunteer Marek 17:14, 7 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Dunutubble: - in this revert [1], your edit summary you said NYT, The Guardian, Reuters, and HRW all called it a siege. Please substantiate this. Volunteer Marek 15:03, 21 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Applodion: - [2]. It is simply untrue that both "siege" and "massacre" are used by reliable sources for this event. First, google searches are not a good indicator as they don't separate out reliable from non-reliable sources. If you google search for "Moura massacre" the top hits are all reliable sources like Guardian, France24 etc. If you google search for "Siege of Moura" there's basically... NO reliable sources there [3]. It's stuff like Offstream News whose motto apparently is "Truth Lies Beyond Mainstream". Or Teller Report which ... I don't even know what that it is except even a cursory glance reveals that it's full of conspiracy theory bullshit and it's chuck full of pop up adds.

And that actually illustrates the broader POV issue with the use of the word "siege" here. That is confined to obviously hyper biased disinfo or outright conspiracy pushing outlets. All reliable sources, including the ones cited in this article use the term "massacre".

If you really insist, please start an RM or at least utilize the talk page. Volunteer Marek 15:15, 22 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 22 June 2022[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. —usernamekiran (talk) 19:14, 12 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Moura Massacre → Siege and massacre of Moura – I propose to move the article to the title "Siege and massacre of Moura" to reflect to two interwoven aspects of this event: The military action, and the resulting mass murder. In regards to sources, one can easily find them by searching for "siege"+"Moura" etc. (instead of fixed terms such as "Siege of Moura" which rarely produce results for most modern battles). Anyway, here I will list some sources which describe the event as both a "siege" (or "siège" in French) as well as "massacre":

I found all of these in a quick search, and did not even try to search for the various alternate spellings of Moura or other military terms such as "battle" or "clash". The issue with the title "Moura Massacre" is quite clear: This was not just mass murder, but also a military operation. The title "Siege and massacre of Moura" would cover both aspects. Applodion (talk) 16:38, 22 June 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. CollectiveSolidarity (talk) 01:48, 30 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't mind the title although I admit the "Siege and massacre of X" title isn't very common on Wikipedia. For instance Siege of Tel al-Zaatar versus Tel al-Za'atar Massacre or Siege and massacre of Tel al-Zaatar. Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 21:11, 22 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Dunutubble: It is not the common naming strategy, true, but we have to consider that the most important part of this event was the massacre, not the siege. IMO, any title used for a complete overview of the events has to include the mass murder. Applodion (talk) 10:32, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - while occasionally some sources use the word "siege", ALL sources emphasize the "massacre" part and this is what the topic is known for. Volunteer Marek 23:36, 26 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Same as Dunutubble. I don't oppose the title, although I think its a bit... uncommon. EkoGraf (talk) 23:12, 27 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per Dunutubble. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Spekkios (talk • contribs) 00:12, 29 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm making a support vote, not an oppose. Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 00:03, 30 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Apologies. I perceived your vote as ambiguous. Next time, please say weak support/oppose and bold your edit so we don’t run into this again. CollectiveSolidarity (talk) 01:15, 30 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Relisting discussion. CollectiveSolidarity (talk) 01:35, 30 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 17 February 2023[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (non-admin closure) BilledMammal (talk) 03:52, 25 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Moura Massacre → Moura massacre – No reason to capitalize the word "massacre". This is an uncontroversial request, this issue has not been the subject of dispute before. Super Ψ Dro 14:13, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This is a contested WP:RMTR "Technical request". Comments from the previous discussion there are copied below (from this version of WP:RMTR). —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 16:01, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It has had a disucssion about the article title before though. (I'm not objecting to the move.) -Kj cheetham (talk) 22:26, 16 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't disagree with this particular move, but other editors might appreciate if an RM was made here, even if this title is uncontroversial. Silikonz💬 22:45, 16 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There were edit wars and RMs over the title, but they were regarding if the event should be called a massacre or a siege, or both. I see this issue as unrelated. Super Ψ Dro 22:49, 16 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

As per WP:PCM, "there has been any past debate about the best title for the page", and hence strictly it should go to a full WP:RM again. -Kj cheetham (talk) 22:54, 16 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support and I agree it's uncontroversial, since the case-fix issue here was never in dispute. Dicklyon (talk) 21:08, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support. WP doesn't capitalize that which is not found capitalized in almost all sources. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 23:10, 23 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.