Talk:Macedonian language naming dispute

This article was nominated for deletion on 5 November 2008 (UTC). The result of the discussion was no consensus.

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Linguistics

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Neutrality[edit]

I kind of guess this is POV by default. - Francis Tyers · 23:19, 6 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

POV? What is POV about it?! Are you some kind of Greek agent! - Francis Tyers · 23:22, 6 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Merge[edit]

I object to the merge. There is a lot of information about the various terms of reference given. If you feel that the article title is POV then by all means suggest a better one. I myself suggested Macedonian language (terminology) for a possible alternative. Having an entire article about the name of a language is hardly "sweeping it under the carpet" as you accuse in your edit summary, but rather "airing the dispute" (get it, carpets, airing, etc.?) for all to see and enjoy. - Francis Tyers · 00:07, 7 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Pending citation[edit]

"It must be noted though, that the Greeks do not reject the term Macedonian applied to the geographic region, nor oppose the usage of the name by other nations (e.g. Macedonia, Alabama, Macedonia, Georgia, Macedônia), but rather object the usage of the term when linked with historical and cultural backgrounds, by people other than Greeks."

- Francis Tyers · 00:23, 7 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think it is pretty obvious... There has not been any diplomatic complain to the governments of Brazil and USA for the usage of the name 'Macedonia' in some of their places. but there have been complains to FYROM for the usage of cultural macedonian symbols, such as the Vergina Sun. Francis, do be reasonable pls... U made the paragraph provocative!: the Greeks that they have a "...kind of «copyright» on the name Macedonian"?! let the other opinion stay as well... Hectorian 00:57, 7 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That is how it is presented in the original French. You are welcome to furnish a better translation, here is the original excerpt:

"En Grèce, on désigne le macédonien comme «l'idiome de Skopje», considéré comme un dialecte bulgare déformé et appauvri. La Grèce, qui revendique une sorte de «copyright» sur le nom de macédonien, proteste contre l'utilisation d'un ethnonyme et d'un glossonyme qui «a été, est, et sera toujours grec». Les Macédoniens de la République de Macédoine sont donc appelés en Grèce les «Skopiens». Quant aux macédophones du Nord de la Grèce, le gouvernement grec nie leur existence, affirmant qu'il n'existe qu'un petit groupe de «Grecs slavophones», ou de «bilingues», qui parlent grec et un dialecte slave local, mais qui ont «une conscience nationale grecque» (Kofos, 1964, p. 226)."

- Francis Tyers · 01:03, 7 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Furthermore, your examples were about "Macedonia", not "Macedonian". - Francis Tyers · 01:05, 7 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I do not know French, so i can understand almost... nothing:). your examples were about "Macedonia", not "Macedonian": are we playing with the words here? the same aplies to both "Macedonia" and "Macedonian". anyway, shape the article as u wish. i may have a look at it later. (btw, it can be merged in the terminology article). Regards Hectorian 01:29, 7 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Full translation here:

In Greece, they designate Macedonian as <<the idiom of Skopje>>, it is considered as a dialect of bulgarian, deformed and impoverished. Greece, which asserts a kind of <<copyright>> on the name of Macedonian protests against the utilisation of an ethnonym and a glossonym which <<has been, is and always will be Greek>>. The Macedonians of the Republic of Macedonia are called in Greece, <<Skopians>>. As for the Macedonophones of the north of Greece, the Greek government denies their existence, affirming that there is a small group of <<Greek slavophones>>, or <<bilinguals>>, who speak Greek and a local slavic dialect, but which have a <<Greek national conscience>> (Kofos, 1964, p. 226).

It might be worth merging with the terminology article, but it covers different subject area, and that article is already very long. - Francis Tyers · 01:41, 7 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Standard of proof[edit]

I've adopted the same standard of proof for usage as the featured Macedonia (terminology) article. That it is enough for the to appear in an official publication to be the name used by the organisation. I think this is reasonable. If anyone disagrees we should have a combined discussion on Talk:Macedonia (terminology). - Francis Tyers · 01:25, 7 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Major additions, redirect from Slavomacedonian[edit]

I think this article should be expanded to include the whole naming dispute issue, found here and there in several articles. Most arguments are repeated and repeated in all sorts of places. What do you think? Niko Silver 20:07, 26 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I propose we move this to Macedonian naming dispute and include all relevant info once. Then we can have a neutral summary in Macedonia (terminology) and in Foreign relations of the Republic of Macedonia#Greece. Niko Silver 20:14, 26 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, I think the language brings up different issues than the others. But I think an article on Macedonia naming dispute would be useful. - Francis Tyers · 22:13, 26 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps it could be cut out from Foreign relations of the Republic of Macedonia. - Francis Tyers · 22:21, 26 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Done. I think that it is better to have two or more pages. One covering each of the language, the ethnic group and the state. We can use "Macedonia naming dispute" as the main article, and have summary style sections. - Francis Tyers · 22:27, 26 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Dopia[edit]

Does ντόπια belong here? At least it should be mentioned. Andreas ^(T) 14:50, 14 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think so as arguably that isn't to do with the naming dispute, but rather a linguistic dispute. As such it is mentioned appropriately in Macedonian language. - Francis Tyers · 14:55, 14 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Unencyclopedic[edit]

This article is "unencyclopedic" (using Wikipedia's words, I'm not sure if this is even a word but I'll use it). I'm really trying to be constructive here. I stumbled across this article and really it's does nothing more than serve as a platform for extreme POV pushing from all sides. I propose that this article be deleted! The Macedonian Language article serves the purpose well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Realtycoon (talk • contribs) 20:31, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I somewhat agree with your placement of the unencyclopedic tag on this article, however, your opinion that "This article does nothing more than promote nationalistic POVs and serve as a forum for hate!" remains your opinion and not the opinion of the Wikipedia community. Please refrain from unnecessarily tagging articles for deletion without an editor consensus. If you would like to propose deletion of this article, please see Wikipedia's Articles for Deletion page. Thank you for your understanding. :) --ž¥łǿχ (ŧäłķ | čøŋŧřīъ§) 20:56, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete it It has no meaning and is really unencyclopedic. Dimboukas (talk) 16:50, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A similar case Talk:Bulgarian views on the Macedonian language was nominated for deletion on 25 November 2007. The result of the discussion was no consensus. MacedonianX (talk) 18:52, 12 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete it really just as dimboukas said unencyclopedic and without a meaningPMK1 (talk) 00:53, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In what way is this article 'Unencyclopedic'? SunCreator (talk) 21:46, 18 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There is no need of this talk. Completly agree that there is article about the Macedonian language and the Greek and Bulgarian political views are included there. Slavic dialect of the State of Skopje??? What is that? Delete it (Toci (talk) 01:12, 19 May 2008 (UTC))[reply]

Delete it The article tries to create a language name issue from the Macedonia name issue even though Officially Bulgaria has recognized the language, and officially Greece recognizes it as "SlavoMacedonian."

I made some edits, I think its less POV Mactruth (talk) 04:32, 20 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete it

1) this article is totally 'Unencyclopedic' does not rapresent objective verificable facts and states unprooven ideas and opinions. 2) There has not been a "Macedonian language naming dispute" by any official institution or lingustic expert, its not stated a single information source on this "language naming dispute". Alex Makedon (talk) 16:50, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete — I think that there never was a naming dispute, but there is A dispute. That's illustrated in Political views on the Macedonian language. I must agree with the OP, this is a (unnecessary) platform for POV pushing and it will only cause trouble. Delete it. Brainmachine (talk) 14:07, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

People, this section is not the deletion discussion. That is located here: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Macedonian language naming dispute‎. Anything you say here will probably be ignored. Balkan Fever 14:11, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

i think the language is slavomacedonia not macedonian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.67.236.39 (talk) 09:36, 22 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Language naming nothing to do with state naming[edit]

Language naming dispute is not connected to naming dispute of States, except for the Greeks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.150.102.148 (talk) 08:21, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Consider removing this article, or having a drastic cleanup for it[edit]

This article is horribly outdated, and full of POV and carelessly explicit bias. The article is a symbol of pre-Prespa treaty chauvinism toward the Macedonian Language. I have tried to tweak this article, but it seems to be beyond revival at this stage. I would consider removing this article for good. --Beat of the tapan (talk) 07:37, 10 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Ancient Macedonian language[edit]

Greece recognizes the term "Macedonian language" for the language spoken in "North Macedonia". However a lot of scientific and linguistic books refer to the language spoken in Ancient Macedonia as "Macedonian language" too. I don't know how this problem can be solved. Jestmoon(talk) 16:23, 3 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]