Talk:Hiberno-English

Banner and wolfdog keep removing sources for no legitimate reason and possibly in collusion with each other.

My original contribution was

Notable lifelong native speakers with west and south west and other Irish accents Jessie Buckley – "she chats away in her Irish accent"[21] Robert Sheehan[22] Kerry Condon -"A strong Tipperary accent"[23][24] Cillian Murphy[25] Aisling O'Sullivan[26] Dolores O'Riordan – "singing in her Limerick accent"[27] Colette Fitzpatrick – "Tipperary native said"[28] Michael Fassbender – "Michael grew up in Killarney and has an Irish accent"[29] Iarla O Lionaird[30] Dáithí Ó Sé – "his Kerry dialect"[31] The Rubberbandits – "Rubberbandits' strong Limerick accent... sits on a frequency like a tambourine which can cut through any noise"[32]

Even though the sources I provided clearly state these are Irish accents and I even added other Irish accents In one case it even says what region in the source such as in Kerry Condons case Strong tipperary accent His response to me Removing people who clearly don't have this accent; just because these people are from a certain region doesn't mean they have that region's local accent He was doing this before long before I made further contributions to the page. He also doesn't have a clue what Irish accents even sound like, and whether he thinks they are accurate to that region or not they're clearly Irish accents. He then went on to claim I was vandalizing the page when he couldn't think of a argument as to why what I contributed was not legitimate.

The audio recordings don't have sources for that specific regional accent yet they had no problem with them being published?.

I also added historical information, which he deemed as redundant, I don't think so personally as one relates more to history while the other purely relates to the features of the accent.

They both are claiming I have vandalized the page, yet they're the one removing legitimate sources and making up argument after argument to have sources removed for whatever agenda they may have.

I realize nothing will be done about this.

Dead link to irish slang page

I tried the external link http://www.irishslang.co.za/ and today (2020-11-26@17:18 CST) it’s dead. Matt Insall (talk) 23:18, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 6 December 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

---

Hiberno-English → Irish English – Clear common name, see below (t · c) buidhe 20:39, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

• Per NGRAMS and Google Trends, the clear common name for this topic is "Irish English". It's not even close. (t · c) buidhe 20:39, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
  • A normal google search gives 183 unique hits for "hiberno-english" while "irish english" only comes to 171 unique hits. No so clear as you claim. The Banner talk 20:59, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
    • To avoid confusion, I am not Irish. I live in the Republic of Ireland, but my nationality is Dutch. So I am nor Irish, nor American. The Banner talk 19:35, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
  • The Google trends seems to only pick up American hits. It's very doubtful that searches finding "Irish English" are all talking about language varieties, or the right ones. My 2nd hit on a google search is "This is a searchable electronic version of Ó Dónaill's Irish-English Dictionary which was first published in 1977" - "Irish" meaning Irish Gaelic. Johnbod (talk) 17:17, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

    You can change the locale as preferred. Here's the result of Ireland. I agree that it's possible that some "Irish English" searches may be referring to something besides the dialect of English, but when it's nearly 100% in favor of one option, even if you throw out half of the "Irish English" results, there is still overwhelming dominance of it—even in Ireland. (t · c) buidhe 15:36, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

    I think even throwing out only half is too little, if you look at the related searches, they are all phrased looking for translations or dictionary sites! Smirkybec (talk) 15:44, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

• Strong support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 00:13, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
• Strong support: This has been discussed numerous times, I believe most recently when I was, in fact, the nominator on 10 January 2016 (see that date in the discussion archive for this page). I withdrew the nomination for reasons I don't honestly recall, though it is worth noting there was plenty of opposition to the move at that time. Here's the strongest case I had then, which I still believe to be the strongest case today: "Irish English" is undeniably a more widely recognized and recognizable title. The linguistic giant regarding this topic, Irish [and Irish English] scholar Raymond Hickey, states in the Introduction to his Irish English: History and Present-Day Forms that the term "Hiberno-English suffers from two drawbacks": namely, it is both too technical for laypersons (an appropriate argument for a Wikipedia article) and carries with it certain "un-academic" or sentimental implications (p. 5). Certainly, no laypersons outside of Ireland would immediately understand the title (and I wonder how many inside), and no other English dialects on Wikipedia follow the odd prefix-hyphenated structure of "Hiberno-English". "Irish English", on the other hand, seems to me fairly transparent a name. Wolfdog (talk) 00:37, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

"Certainly, no laypersons outside of Ireland would immediately understand the title" - you should also exclude Britain (and very possibly Australia etc) from that sweeping generalization. As for Ireland, you can ask them yourself. Johnbod (talk) 16:26, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

• Strong oppose: As per The Banner's point there is no clear dominance of "Irish English" as a preferred term. But speaking more specifically to the content covered in the article, the issue with "Irish English" is the misinterpretation that it refers to the effect of the Irish language on English spoken in Ireland, as opposed to the many and varying languages that have had an effect to make Hiberno-English. It seems to be an oversimplification with very little benefit. Smirkybec (talk) 11:51, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

As a side note, there is already enough international confusion about Irish being its own language rather than purely being the English spoken in Ireland. This will only add to that confusion. Smirkybec (talk) 13:44, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Your suggestion that "Irish English" could be misinterpreted as the effect of the Irish language on English spoken in Ireland 1) feels to me outlandish (almost like the exact opposite of wishful thinking) and 2) isn't even a problem, since Irish English would be the appropriate article to discuss Irish substrate effects on the English language in Ireland. So what's the actual problem here? As for "Irish English" not being dominant, well, on Google Scholar, "Irish English" articles far outnumber "Hiberno-English" articles. Plus, there's the appeal that the term is clear ("What kind of English are we talking about? Oh, Irish English.") and follows the established pattern of many, many other English dialect pages on Wikipedia that use "[Regional Adjective] English" (like Texan English, Scottish English, Indian English, etc.). Wolfdog (talk) 16:16, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

I have two issues with your invocation of academic discourse - 1) it is relying on one singular academic (Hickey), and 2) the search results on Google Scholar till use nothing about WHERE those academics and researchers are based - are they invoking "Irish English" as the descriptor from outside or within Ireland? And are they drawing that terminology from Hickey? Also, academic terminology shouldn't dictate what the article is called, especially when there is a perfectly serviceable redirect. There is enough US-centric dominance of Irish topics without adding this to the pile. From an academic standpoint, the Irish Elk article should be renamed the Giant Irish Deer, but the "common" usage of the name dominates. As a side bar, seeing as I had a chance, I ran a quick experiment on Twitter. Smirkybec (talk) 18:13, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

That survey is a very cool idea. Be sure to send us the results. (I'm amazed how many Irish respondents think Hiberno-English "just sounds better" or "sounds more formal"; interesting to hear that perspective. Also, several Irish people mention [as much as it baffles me] that the term "Irish English" indeed confuses them. Wow! I fully admit that I'm coming at this from a non-Irish outsider's perspective.) Side-note: one of your Twitter comments mentions that a lot of the research on this page comes from Raymond Hickey, with perhaps an implication that it's biased toward his publications. That may be the case (I certainly am partially responsible), but, in my defence, where's everyone else's research out there? I'd love to see/know about other scholars of this dialect, but I find that much of the modern research ties right back to Hickey. Anyone's help is much appreciated. Wolfdog (talk) 23:06, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

In general, it would appear that in linguistics it is indeed Irish English, but within Ireland and in relation to the study of literature it would be Hiberno-English. Within Ireland, the work of Diarmaid Ó Muirithe and Terence Dolan would be far more familiar (both published popular books, and were regular contributors to Irish newspapers) and I think their use of Hiberno-English to describe their work probably is a big factor in that terms more recent popularity/familiarity. I mentioned the use of Hickey to see what linguists thought (as that Twitter account would have a large following from that area) just to see if I could tease out whether that would be a potential bias, but it doesn't look like it. Smirkybec (talk) 23:30, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

So on that Twitter poll, out of 1,180 82.4% favour Hiberno-English. I think this speaks to Johnbod's point that those in Ireland and interested in the languages of Ireland would use Hiberno-Irish when talking about the form of English spoken in Ireland. Some have pointed out that these older more rural spoken forms are probably on the decline, although this seems to be disputed. I again will proffer that there is the redirect from Irish English for those coming from outside Ireland or from a linguistics background. While I will always be in favour of clarity and simplicity where it is of a net benefit, I feel that here it is a simplification purely for the sake of it, and will be at a loss for the community that is actually being represented here. Smirkybec (talk) 12:36, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose while the support is American, and the opposition Irish. The views of actual Irish editors should weigh more heavily on this one. The last time this was proposed (withdrawn at 7:3 against), Irish editors were also against. Johnbod (talk) 17:18, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose - Smirkybec covered all points for me rather well. Is the underlying concern here that it needs to be somehow dumbed-down for those who don't know what Hibernia relates to? (disclosure: native speaker here) - Alison ^❤ 20:52, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose A normal Google search using the term Hiberno-English will refer to the indigenous dialect of English, whereas Irish English will largely generate results relating to Irish-English dictionaries, so the former term is in more general use. Culloty82 (talk) 21:53, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose they're different things blindlynx (talk) 17:43, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose. Per Culloty82 and Smirkybec, and special mention to the latter's poll! While WP "votes" aren't votes, that poll is definitely useful in seeing how both terms are viewed in the Anglosphere and point towards WP:COMMONNAME. Sorry - should that be "Englishsphere"? ;-) (ETA: Oh - Irish here, if that matters.) Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 14:11, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose as per The Banner, Smirkybec & Culloty82. Denisarona (talk) 14:42, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

---

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"Notable lifelong native speakers"

Wolfdog reverted my removal of what I consider to be trivial and poorly verified. To take the last point first, proving that Christine Bleakley, Jamie Dornan, Rory McIlroy, and Liam Neeson are somehow "lifelong native speakers" is done by a link to a newspaper article, which states, in full, "The dulcet tones of Liam Neeson, Jamie Dornan, Christine Bleakley and Rory McIlroy helped ensure the accent came top of the popularity charts when it comes to 'sweet talk'." So that's a no-no already, and the sourcing for the others is no better. But Wolfdog claims that "It's a commonplace on multiple WP dialect pages"--even if that were true, that wouldn't make it right for this article; in addition, how is it true? In the move discussion, above, Wolfdog lists a few Englishes (Texan English, Scottish English, Indian English)--none of them have it. I'll list a couple that I know, none of which have it: West Frisian Dutch, Limburgish, Brabantian dialect, Gronings dialect, South Guelderish, West Flemish, Southern American English--and The Banner knows some of these too. In addition, other sections in this article (Dublin English, Standard (Southern) Irish English) don't have it either. Wolfdog, you may be attached to this content because you added it, so I'm sorry, but you didn't add it to other articles you edited: Jamaican English, Western New England English, Canadian English, New England English, and while that undermines your "commonplace" argument, it's a good thing that you didn't.

I'm not the first one to have problems with this content: Ceoil thought it was "silly" too, and you reverted him with a simple "reverting material removal". So I'm sorry, but the arguments you provided don't hold water, and the content should be removed. Drmies (talk) 14:34, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

Agreed. Johnbod (talk) 14:56, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

I am not an expert on this matter but I looked at this addition with alarm. The Banner talk 14:57, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

It's trivia, it's hard to nail down as it's highly subjective, and it's going to be a magnet for throwing in just about anyone from Ireland. I'm fine with its being gone - Alison ^❤ 17:37, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

Alison, it is always nice to see that little heart of yours pop up. Thank you for all you've done over the years to make this place better. Drmies (talk) 21:53, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

Thanks :) It's nice to pop in here as often as I can, though I'm less active these days. Trying to step up just a little bit of late! Lovely to see you here, too - Alison ^❤ 23:13, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

I understand your objections. However, why are you oddly cherrypicking dialects I mentioned in an unrelated post above (what do Texan English, Scottish English, etc. have to do with this particular discussion?). Anyway, I'm quite sure I didn't start the trend, though I've certainly added/expanded such sections or speakers on various pages, true. What does that, or the fact that many (most) dialect pages "don't have it," have to do with its validity? The fact that certain notable people use certain accents can surely be useful for lay readers unacquainted with linguistics, so this is obviously well-intentioned. Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "it's a good thing that you didn't" along with its subtly threatening tone, as if I'm editing pages in bad faith. What's that about? All you needed was to provide some logic for your point of view. If anything, the "poorly verified" argument and Alison's argument about the inherent subjectivity of choosing speakers make sense. I get that. Obviously if the consensus is against me then so be it, but I'd at least throw this out there: Can we think of any way to keep this section but with stronger sources (less vulnerable to subjective disagreements)? (And maybe the answer is honestly "no" and so be it.) Wolfdog (talk) 12:47, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

Because those other dialects are not relevant for this discussion? The Banner talk 13:10, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

Huh? Wolfdog (talk) 14:14, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

They are relevant, and both cockney and Received Pronunciation have it. We should have a Wikipedia-wide consensus to remove such sections from dialect pages. And please don't bring WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS to this, I'm saying that we should decide what to do with such sections in all relevant articles, not that the section shouldn't be removed from here because other pages have it. We don't have to do both at once. Sol505000 (talk) 18:21, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

• It reads to me that Drmies is making the point that your actions belie your arguments. Also, I suspect that Drmies would be far happier with examples that a qualified linguist had said were examples, rather than the unidentified "Staff Writer" at the Belfast Telegraph with unknown credentials in the field that you are presenting.

  Shane Walshe who wrote ISBN 9783631586822 has a doctorate in Linguistics, for example. Try reading what xe has to say, for starters. And then you can look to Angela McCarthy in ISBN 9781851829576 and elsewhere observing how Charlotte Godley is an example of how New Zealanders and Australians once commonly conflated Irish and Scots accents, quoting this letter. I suspect that you'll get a lot less resistance to genuine scholarship than to "Staff Writer" at the Belfast Telegraph and a poll run by a supermarket as a publicity stunt for Valentine's Day.

  As noted at User:Uncle G/Cargo cult encyclopaedia article writing good content keeps out the bad somewhat. This is currently the latter, though.

  Uncle G (talk) 09:41, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

Great finds. Feel free to bolster the article with those better sources. No one here is thinking staff writers are the best we can do. That was my whole point! I'm glad to see there are strong sources out there -- thanks. Wolfdog (talk) 15:55, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

Mary Robinson/"Affluent"

Can we change this description? Robinson does not come from an affluent family, nor is she especially wealthy now. Furthermore, she has spoken this way her entire life. She was educated at Trinity College Dublin, which may have affected her accent in the early years. Hanoi Road (talk) 14:28, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

•  Done - yeah, agreed. That's a particular Clare/Mayo accent that she's got - I wouldn't call it affluent - Alison ^❤ 20:20, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. Hanoi Road (talk) 22:11, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Messages

Messages for doing the shopping, is that exclusively Irish. It's used in Scotland too. And might come from the Dutch "boodschappen" (messages), which is used in the Netherlands as the word for doing the shopping. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.174.48.97 (talk) 21:21, 2 November 2021 (UTC)