Talk:Hamas

Hamas description

I recall once asking why Lehi is classified on Wikipedia as a terrorist group, while Hamas isn't. I was replied that Lehi "admitted to being one" and therefore Wikipedia also defines them as terrorists. Hamas' status as a terrorist group is very clear through its actions, but they also admit so themselves: in their song Shock Israel's Security, which describes their agenda, they literally say "Attack, do terror attacks" right at the start of the song.

Here are more examples from the lyrics: "Shake the security of Israel, light its inside like nuclear reactors, destroy it down to its foundations, destroy the roach nest like pests, kick out all Zionists", where it calls to ethnically cleanse and massacre Zionists (Jews). "Rain missiles on them already, make their world a nightmare", call to literally terrorize the Jews using violence and incite fear in them for political reasons, basically the definition of terrorism.

Source for the lyrics: https://lyricstranslate.com/en/tkof-taase-piguim-attack-do-terror.html Additional sources regarding this song: https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-hebrew-music-video-aims-to-shake-israels-security/ https://english.alarabiya.net/News/middle-east/2014/07/12/Hamas-taunts-Israel-with-battle-song-in-Hebrew

Reposted instead of edited because another section was added during this time. 2A00:A040:197:1220:BD8D:DE89:ECEA:5D57 (talk) 12:31, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Unclear what you want to do here, you wish to include a reference to this song in the article? Please post a proper WP:EDITREQ (like the examples up the page). Selfstudier (talk) 12:40, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

WP:LABEL prevents articles from labelling groups as terrorist, although the manual of style allows for "occasional exceptions." I imagine that if there is consensus in reliable sources and they self-describe would be one.

Reliable sources use the term terrorist to describe organizations whose sole purpose is to carry out terrorist attacks. Hence they do not describe Hamas as a terrorist group since its main purpose is to be a political party.

Bear in mind that the only reason to use the term terrorist is to be descriptive. Articles do not exist in order to pronounce moral judgment. TFD (talk) 13:03, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

What I want to do here, is add the label "terrorist organization" to the article Hamas, since they admit it themselves (as indicated in their propaganda song calling for terror).

If WP:LABEL bans calling an organization terrorist, then that should include Lehi. I'm not sure where the criteria of "sole purpose being terror" comes from, and even if so, then Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, Hamas' military wing, should be defined as a terrorist organization as that's literally its sole purpose. 2A00:A040:197:1220:BD8D:DE89:ECEA:5D57 (talk) 20:20, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Not happening. If you have issues at some other page, then raise them at those pages. Selfstudier (talk) 21:00, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Also per WP:OR

Thanks nonetheless for the lyrics. I missed them while following the event which engendered the inept Hebrew of the song, the 2014 Gaza war at a time when Israel managed to kill 2,200+ Gazans while it lost 6 civilians from Hamas rocketry. I was struck by the words:

, destroy the roach nest like pests

Sounds eerily like an allusion to an image made 10 years early by a Israeli general who likened the Palestinians to

‘drugged cockroaches scurrying in a bottle" (General Rafael Eitan)

This was translated openly into Israeli policy a year later, when Dov Weisglass created the 'formaldehyde' solution for bottling up Palestinian 'cockroaches' in Gaza forever.Nishidani (talk) 21:10, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Your comment should be quoted in the Wikipedia article for Whataboutism and Ad Hominem. The Gaza war and Raful have nothing to do with the subject we're talking about, being a prime example of a red herring fallacy. It's funny that your profile describes you as a serious writer with impressive contributions while you write in a way so biased you fall into textbook fallacies. Also, the song wasn't even written in 2014, but rather in 2012, as said in Shock Israel's Security.

Also, "Not happening" is not a response that fits adults and Wikipedia. You're right, the place for asking to declare Lehi a terrorist organization on Wikipedia or not is up to discussion there, and I only brought it here as an example for the bias of Wikipedia, and to declare what I think should be done in theory, as I'll continue exploring ahead.

Back to the topic about declaring Hamas terroristic or not. So far these following arguments were brought:

• Wikipedia cannot take sides and declare an organization as terroristic.
• However, Wikipedia can call an organization terroristic if a source says so (as an example brought, in the article about Lehi).
• A terrorist organization is an organization whose sole purpose is terror (although, that definition is not backed up by reason or source).

And so my argument is:

• Hamas is declared a terrorist group by multiple entities ("Canada, the European Union, Israel, Japan, Australia, the United Kingdom and the United States have designated Hamas as a terrorist organization. New Zealand and Paraguay have designated only its military wing as a terrorist organization.").
• Hamas admit themselves to be a terrorist organization, by releasing a propaganda song where they literally call for terror (using the exact word and definition for "terror attack", "פיגוע" in Hebrew). There's no other way to interpret it, and if you find one, let me know.
• Wikipedia already designates some organizations, such as Lehi, as terrorist groups, so a precedent exists.

As a result, Wikipedia should add the description "terrorist" to this article, or at least to Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, Hamas' military wing, whose sole purpose is terror (as shown by the list of their attacks, which are almost exclusively targeted to civilians). Alternatively, Wikipedia can decide it can't declare groups as terroristic at all, and remove that title from Lehi (or change it to "declared terroristic by x, y, z...").

A Wikipedia where Lehi is called a terrorist group while Hamas isn't and vice versa, is a biased Wikipedia and an unreliable source of information, as it clearly shows its editors write in a biased POV. Either Wikipedia declares both as plain out terrorist, or none. I'm asking you to put aside your biases and your double standards and see reality as it is. Thank you.

2A06:C701:43EB:C400:2534:82E5:109D:15F2 (talk) 11:42, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

One could make the same argument about the U.S., based on their national anthem (!):

Their blood has washed out their foul footsteps' pollution.

No refuge could save the hireling and slave

The terror of flight, or the gloom of the grave:

They "call to literally terrorize the British and blacks using violence and incite fear in them for political reasons."

TFD (talk) 01:59, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

Thank God you're on Wikipedia already. You can simply click the link and read about Strawman.

2A06:C701:43EB:C400:2534:82E5:109D:15F2 (talk) 11:56, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

No-one is on board with your suggestion so once again, not happening. Selfstudier (talk) 12:14, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

Song lyrics are not a reliable source, are not any kind of formal statement, and they never will be either of these. The news stories originally quoted note the propagandistic nature of the songs. Songs are songs. If we took lyrics literally, And did those feet in ancient time would be a song calling for the building of a literal new Jerusalem in England. But we don't do that, because this is a poem by Blake, and because songs are not literal things; they are heart tugs. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:19, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

There's a difference between "just a song" and an official song issued by Hamas' military corps which actively declares their intentions, of which they pursue. But forget the song, my other points still stand and you haven't addressed them at all.

2A06:C701:43EB:C400:2534:82E5:109D:15F2 (talk) 14:04, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

They have been addressed. In fact they have been given more than enough attention, WP is not a forum for personal opinions. If you want something specific addressed please file an edit request in the proper format as was requested earlier. Selfstudier (talk) 14:09, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

(ec) Idem. You've been heard out. The rules have been explained. Your proposed edit violates several. This is not a forum.Nishidani (talk) 14:11, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

I notice that when you presented a disingenous argument and I showed the same could be applied to the U.S., you called it strawman. (I don't know why you chose to call it that, have you actually read the the article you linked to?) Well the fact is that we call our friends and allies freedom fighters and our enemies and adversaries terrorists. And when, as often happens, we switch sides in a conflict, we switch the terms. That's why WP:LABEL advises us not to use them. It's also why policy prevents editors from drawing their own conclusions and adding them to articles.

There is however an actual subject of terrorism that is covered in reliable sources, such as textbooks and journal articles, which is the subject of this article. We are required to use them as sources. TFD (talk) 14:40, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

Incidentally, the American national anthem is not "just a song," it is an "official song." It's actually sanctioned in 36 U.S.C. § 301(a). TFD (talk) 14:42, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

I feel like all this is missing the point. The reason that this article does not say Hamas is a terrorist organization is that reliable sources arent so overwhelmingly saying that as a factual description that we cannot say it as a factual description either. That isnt the case for Lehi. The balance of sources support calling that a terrorist group, here sources refer to Hamas as a number of things, but not overwhelmingly as "terrorist". For example, the Council on Foreign Relations calls it a militant group and specifies who has designated it a terrorist group. Same for BBC. Same for NYTimes. There isnt that equivocation for Lehi. And yes, Lehi literally self-identified as a terrorist group. Your song lyrics dont do that, sorry. nableezy - 22:25, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

Citation

For the Hadera bus station suicide bombing citation that's missing - can't add due to extended protection:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1994/04/07/8-killed-40-injured-in-car-bomb-blast-at-israeli-bus-stop/6feb4aef-1e8f-4d32-bfe5-79bf5d468760/ SSR07 (talk) 00:52, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Bad wording

In the violence and terrorism section, it refers to the holiday of Passover as a "festival". This is highly odd wording, and I've never heard it referred to as a festival. Could we change it to holiday? EytanMelech (talk) 16:28, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

LGBT rights persecution

We should add a specific section of LGBT persecution by Hamas Nlivataye (talk) 17:02, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 23:42, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 January 2023

I want to edit the fact it says Syria is an ally to Hamas. Hamas used to be an ally to the Syrian Arab Republic, but during the civil war they took the side of the rebels because the rebels were Sunni-Muslims while Bashar's forces were Alawites and Shias. Hamas being an ally to the Syrian Arab Republic is outdated, and I just want to add "former" to Syria in the allies section. IbnAbuOmar (talk) 16:16, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Lemonaka (talk) 01:22, 20 January 2023 (UTC)