Talk:Gnosticism

A lesser god?

Question about a single source designating the deity of an entire religion as being the opposite of divinity: is this really supported? I am not Jewish, but it seems a bit mischievous.

24.215.104.17 (talk) 02:24, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

Identification of Demiurge with YHWH - Georges Bataille a potentially dubious source?

The following is currently the second sentence of the article:

• Viewing material existence as flawed or evil, Gnostic cosmogony generally presents a distinction between a supreme, hidden God and a malevolent lesser divinity (sometimes associated with the Yahweh of the Old Testament) who is responsible for creating the material universe.

This sentence states that the Demiurge-figure described in many texts deemed Gnostic is sometimes associated with the God of the Hebrew Bible. The claim that the authors of Gnostic texts were making such an association isn't particularly controversial - they indeed often are linked, and several Nag Hammadi texts are pretty explicit about making such a link.

However, I note that the source cited here is a philosophical essay by Georges Bataille, a philosopher (and a rather unusual one at that) with no specific scholarly expertise in Gnostic texts. Bataille himself in the source cited doesn't cite this claim. The source in general is - in all fairness to Bataille - not supposed to be a scholarly text on the subject of Gnosticism so much as it is a philosophical reflection which "bounces off of" certain notions the author has about Gnosticism as its starting point. Such an essay is a perfectly appropriate citation in a section on responses to or philosophical interpretations of Gnosticism - it is not however a reliable source for making general claims about Gnosticism. It was not a strong source of factual information on the topic at its time of writing in 1930; it certainly isn't now. The fact that Bataille alone might associate the Demiurge with Yahweh is insufficient to warrant the mention of a such an association in the opening statements of the article.

I don't take much issue with the actual statement or its phrasing here - but to my mind it requires a citation from a better quality and more contemporary source.

--Pseudo-Pseudo-Dionysius (talk) 21:29, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

- see The Gnostic Gospels by Elaine Pagels, pp. 33-35. She cites "Hypostasis of the Archons," "On the Origin of the World," and the "Secret Book of John." While these texts do not mention Yahwey by name, they characterize him as "I am a jealous God, and there is no other God beside me," clearly a reference to the God of the Old Testament. - Epinoia (talk) 22:16, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

I was aware that the references to said figure were there in the primary texts; it was just the quality of the citation used I was taking issue with. The Pagels citation you provide works, and of course she's a much more authoritative source. I've swapped out the citation just now. Thanks for the help. Pseudo-Pseudo-Dionysius (talk) 17:13, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

References

Judean / Israelite movements

I'm thinking of adding a Judean / Israelite movements section and adding Maghāriya who believed in a demiurgic angel that created the earth and also moving Mandaeism to this section as well since prominent scholars believe the religion is Judean / Israelite instead of Persian in addition to Samaritan Baptist sects. Please share if you have any concerns. Mcvti (talk) 15:33, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

- Maghāriya may fit better in the Proto-Gnosticism article - cheers - Epinoia (talk) 21:06, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

thanks, that is very helpful! Mcvti (talk) 21:33, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

added Elkesaites who also originated in the Jordan valley and had a Gnostic leaning Mcvti (talk) 23:36, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

Sophia in Jewish Gnosticism?

Regarding the line "Jewish Gnosticism with a focus on Sophia was active by 90 A.D." under the subheading "Sophia", I'm having a very difficult time finding a source to verify this information-- I'm considering removing it until such a time as a suitable citation can be found. Though there is a potential string of connections through The Wisdom of Soloman, it was likely written around 50 B.C., so the timing doesn't quite fit. Am I missing anything obvious? I will admit this is not my area of expertise. TempusAstra042 (talk) 12:48, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

This is not my area of expertise either. I myself wouldn't go fussing around with little details like that about which I don't know much to begin with. Why not leave it for someone with knowledge, or at leat enough interest to research the detail? Thank you, warshy ^(¥¥) 18:20, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Sex and Gender in Early Christianities

This article is currently the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 17 January 2023 and 12 May 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Todd Andrea.

— Assignment last updated by Todd Andrea (talk) 22:15, 22 February 2023 (UTC)