Talk:Gene Kelly

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Thanks

I think that this page had a lot of info that I needed for my sixth peroid drama class. Thank you so much. There is only one problem, I needed a little more detail, things about your whole life and facts but other than that it was great.

Sincerely, Breeana R.

Birth place

I am sure that Gene Kelly was born in Ireland, and that his birth name was Eugene Curran, not Kelly at all. He got the name Kelly from his granparents, or his mothers MAIDEN NAME I think. This information is quite inaccurate, I should know as my Grandad, John Curran, is Gene's cousin. He tells me stories of him being there when he was younger, in Galway, West Ireland. I would edit the page but I don't know enough to do so. emma--195.92.194.11 16:01, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I am pretty sure his father was James Kelly and mother was Harriet Curran. Arniep 21:34, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

"When Harriet Kelly gave birth to her third child, a son she called Eugene Curran - better known as Gene - on 3 August 1912, at the Sacred Heart Parish in Pittsburgh's Highland Park district, her husband, James Patrick Joseph Kelly, could not have been more delighted" quoted from Clive Hirschhorn, Gene Kelly, A Biography W.H Allen, London, 1984. p.5 ISBN 0491031823. Gene cooperated with Hirschhorn on this biography. Dermot 18:26, 20 July 2006 (UTC) Incidentaly, Hirschhorn got the actual date of birth wrong. It was August 23rd, and was corrected in the later Yudkoff biography.Dermot 18:44, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

"Gene Kelly in popular culture"

What was his actual career if not in popular culture ? (Such sections are discouraged anyway aren't they ? Wikipedia:Avoid_trivia_sections_in_articles) -- Beardo 04:48, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. It may be pointless removing them entirely as some of the items are probably genuinely noteworthy and will almost certainly be reinserted at sometime in the future. I've tried to integrate the most noteworthy as notes supporting comments such as "much-imitated" when used in relation to some of Kelly more famous routines. I don't claim this is a perfect solution, but at least it relegates such items to a less visible and arguably more appropriate place in the article, while enabling deletion of the section. Dermot 12:13, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

WP:WikiProject Actors and Filmmakers priority assessment

Per debate and discussion re: assessment of the approximate 100 top priority articles of the project, this article has been included as a top priority article. Wildhartlivie (talk) 07:07, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Plaque

I added a photo of the Gene Kelly plaque on the Pitt Campus. Hope everyone likes it.--Hepcat748 (talk) 21:59, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Family Guy Awards

as appearing in an episode of Family Guy isn't an actual award i think this bit of information should be incorporated elsewhere —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.154.110.103 (talk) 21:36, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree; that is most definititly not an award. Am I missing it or has it been removed? I assume someone has taken care of this already, but just to be sure...?99.144.160.149 (talk) 04:12, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

African-American influences

I am wondering why there is no mention that Gene Kelly, just as Fred Astaire, Shirley Templ,Elvis Presley and other white entertainers, obtained their dancing styles directly from African American dancers such as Bill "Bojangles" Robinson, and others who created and mastered tap dancing, and other African based art forms. Gene was not the originator, nor when compared to these black artists, was Gene Kelly, Fred Astaire Elvis Presley and others who mimicked them, considered "revolutionary" in the black community who knew all to well where their dancing styles originated. Not only is their dancing style not unique, if one were to view footage of both styles it is clear that they are exact carbon imitations of these black dance masters. During the time [Segregation & Jim Crow], because these were white men who mastered a black cultural style of dancing, and made it seem their own, white America went wild, and didn't feel a need to credit Blacks - - -the unspoken presumption being that everyone knew it was black--. It is time to give credit and rightly document where it is due. To continue to omit their African American influences is to deny yet again the undeniable historical and cultural perspective of the African-American contributions which greatly influenced and was a major contributing factor in shaping American performing arts. --74.229.102.208 (talk) 17:45, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

You have a good point, but I think it's more generally true about tap dancing in general (and therefore your comment really should be on the Tap dancing article talk page) then it is about Kelly in particular. I don't really see much in Kellly's athletic and bouyant style which mirrors (generally speaking) black tap dancing or its antecedents. If you look at the trio that Kelly and the Nicholas Brothers do in The Pirate, it's not really recognizable as Kelly's style of dancing, it's more that he adopted the Nicholas Brothers' style for that number -- and, again, I don't see the correspondance between Kelly and, say, Bill "Bojangles" Robinson.

I could be wrong, and if you think I am, and have citations to support your contention specific to Kelly, then you should write something and add it to the article. Otherwise, I would think that it's really a more generic point about the debt that white tap dancing owes to its black antecedents (as well as to Irish clog dancing, and so on). Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) ^{(talk / cont)} 20:16, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

I must beg to differ with you. African-Americans invented and self-styled nearly all forms of what came to be known as “American modern and popular dance.” From the Lindy-hop, shim-sham,” and a host of others that made it into mainstream white America. As the black vaudevilles entered mainstream American living rooms via televisions, many white dancers copied the exact same style of singing and dance that originated in the black vaudevilles. Many such as Gene and Astaire were made very rich and famous from imitating these African-American rhythmic dance and singing styles. It must also be noted that during this time period the only "respectable" professions that African-Americans were allowed was dancing, and singing, which fostered a very creative competitive environment, generating some of the most magnificent dance styles and rhythmic moves, that would rival any form created in contemporary times. There were so many great African-Americans dancers, too many to name or even remember. Nonetheless, it is undeniable where these artistic dance forms originated.

Gene Kelly, who originally began as a tap-dancer, is one of many white males who capitalized on this profoundly popular creative and energetic African-American dance style. Similar to what Eminem is to rap and hip-hop, every one of Gene's rhythmic moves were styled directly after these black dance giants. Gene not only copied African-American dance, he also sang African-American music i.e. blues, and Jazz, and incorporated them into many of his dance routines just as they were routinely done in the black vaudevilles.

Luckily, we do not have to look very far for verifiable sources. Youtube has nearly an anthology of vintage footage chronicling some of this early history. I will list a few here in some chronological order. Any one viewing these clips will clearly see the dominate and early influence of black music, tap and popular dance styles copied by Gene, Astaire, Temple and a host of others.

African-American dance and music is responsible for making “great stars” in "White" Hollywood and Broadway, and any biographical sketch written of Gene, Astaire, Temple, Dean Martin, etc., would not be accurate or complete without stating this cultural and artistic historical fact detailing their early dance influences. Without this early history, there would have never been a Gene, Astaire, Martin et.al.--74.229.102.208 (talk) 02:14, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

No one's denying that one of tap dancing's roots is in African-American dancing (one would have to be pretty foolish to do that), the question is whether Gene Kelly, in particular, owes his specific style to that influence or not. If you think he does, write it up and add it to the article, if you have citations which are specific to Kelly and not generically about tap dancing. Talking about it here is pretty much useless -- if you've got the goods, go for it!

Just be aware, though, that if what you write isn't specifically about Gene Kelly's relationship to black antecedents it will almost certainly be deleted. Anything that's just generally about tap dancing should go into that article, and is not appropriate for this one. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) ^{(talk / cont)} 03:16, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

One of taps early roots? By the fact that these African-American originators are not included in the article as some of Gene's major influences is a form of cultural denial. The question is do you have any other historical evidence that Gene's style originated anywhere else but from these early African-American dancers? And if so, for the sake of accuracy, where is your historical proof? I have presented mines.--74.229.102.208 (talk) 03:33, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

I understand your point -- now write it up. No one's going to do it for you. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) ^{(talk / cont)} 03:40, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Ditto. I never demanded for anyone to include this history for me. I am simply offering you, the original author of the article, the respect due to you by discussing these points here first.--74.229.102.208 (talk) 03:49, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Oh, I am not the original author of this article, not by a long shot. I've done some work on it, but not a lot, and the article has been around since 2001 and has passed through many hands. Good luck with your contribution, and don't forget to include verifiable references and keep it specific to Kelly. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) ^{(talk / cont)} 03:54, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Not a problem. Before I include any information, I will post it here for disscussion and for your concensus. Once we all agree on how it should be presented, I will include it. I think this is fair and shows respect for your being the "overseerer" of this artilce. The goal is to present historical and contexual accuracy so that the researcher and others can obtain a more wholistic continuity of historical events. Is this agreeable to you?--74.229.102.208 (talk) 04:28, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

To be clear, I am not the "overseeer" of this or any other article, simply an editor with an interest in the subject matter. On Wikipedia, any editor can revise or revert posted changes, which is why I've been suggesting that anything you add to the article be well-supported by citations to references, and that it be tightly focused on Kelly. More general additions, or those which are not supported by refs, will almost certainly be rejected by those who, like me, have an interest in Kelly and want to keep this article on track. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) ^{(talk / cont)} 17:43, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

I have revised a small section under the Working methods and influence on filmed dance section to read as follows:

There was a clear progression in his development, from an early concentration on tap and musical comedy styles, brought into prominence through the black minstrel show dancers, the most famous being Master Juba, known for his expressive, percussive, varied tempo and lightning-fast speed. This style was later incorporated to include ballet and other modern and contemporary dance forms.

I might also include at least one of Gene's earlier African-American influences here as well. There is no doubt that he was influenced by the Nicholas Brothers whom by some accounts, were considered the greatest dance routine in film history.--74.229.102.208 (talk) 15:43, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

I reverted this edit as it was not supported by a proper citation, and worse, it distorted the original content of the Delamater citation. I see you are a new user to Wikipedia so you might not be familiar with the requirement of using reliable sources WP:RS, verifiablity WP:V and absence of original research wP:NOR which are cornerstones of Wikipedia policy. Links to copyright violating clips on Youtube certainly are not part of this and are, in fact, prohibited under Wikipedia policy. Also you should pay particular attention to WP:NPOV, which, given some of your statements here, is possibly an issue. As a new user you can expect some latitude and you should be open to accepting advice from experienced editors. You need to be aware that neither your opinions, nor mine for that matter, count for much, if anything, around here. All that matters is whether you are able to bring new content which satisfies all four of those Wikipedia polcies. Period. So, if you have anything to add to the following statement in the article: "Kelly himself, refused to categorize his style: 'I don't have a name for my style of dancing...It's certainly hybrid...I've borrowed from the modern dance, from the classical, and certainly from the American folk dance - tap-dancing, jitterbugging [my italics]...But I have tried to develop a style which is indigenous to the environment in which I was reared."[9] He especially acknowledged the influence of George M. Cohan: 'I have a lot of Cohan in me. It's an Irish quality, a jaw-jutting, up-on-the-toes cockiness - which is a good quality for a male dancer to have.'[1] please go ahead. But just as each statement I quoted is supported by citations either to Kelly's own words or the distinguished Kelly scholars, so must yours be. In my view the current article presents a balanced description of the many influences that affected Kelly, including but certainly not limited to tap. I am also worried about baseless claims such as "they are exact carbon imitations of these black dance masters", "to continue to omit their African American influences" which to me reveal a very serious deficit in your appreciation of the both the artistic achievements of Astaire and Kelly and of the content of their respective Wikipedia articles. So by all means go ahead, but don't be surprised if your contributions are subjected to very rigorous examination. D7240 (talk) 15:53, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

As a suggestion, you might want to post your proposed changes here, before editing the article, so they can be debated. I also suggest you consult the references given in the article. D7240 (talk) 15:59, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for the suggestion: I will repost what I have written above for general discussion, and how best to place it into the article. All of the links included to support what I have written are in the referenced wikilinks. We welcome yours and others suggestion on how to include this info into the article.--74.229.102.208 (talk) 18:10, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

There was a clear progression in his development, from an early concentration on tap and musical comedy styles, brought into prominence through the black minstrel show dancers, the most famous being Master Juba, known for his expressive, percussive, varied tempo and lightning-fast speed. This style was later incorporated to include ballet and other modern and contemporary dance forms.

I think these additions are irrelevant to the Kelly article, they might have some place in an article on tap. Kelly could never have seen Master Juba, nor is it likely he saw many minstrel shows, as the Wikipedia article on minstrel shows explains, these died out as professional acts by 1910. This article is no place for background material. Secondly, you are inserting extraneous material into a paragraph which relies on the Delamater citation. I have added cited material on specifically which African-Americans he learned most from, namely Clarence "Dancing" Dotson and Frank Harrington. To preserve the balance in the article, I have also added cited material on his ballet and Spanish dancing teachers; after all, ballet was more important to Kelly than tap, which he did in his early days because it was commercial. Please review the edits I've made and offer some suggestions as to how they might be improved.D7240 (talk) 18:44, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

D7240, what you have added is absolutely fine. As long as there is some historical reference to his early African-American influences. I however, will argue that although minstrel shows might have "died out" by 1910, they were not by any means absence from filmography and their art forms studied by famous choreographers and incorporated in the major dance studios. Even until today, there are retro-channels that still profile these shows. Any serious student of dance would be remiss to not have studied this history, as I am certain, (in observing Gene's dance style) he most certainly did. The "commerical" (urban) lable notwithinstanding, made these highly complex dance moves no less ingenious and innovative. On another note, I did not know that his children did not have the opportunity to mourn his death. He was a vibrant spirit that brought much cheer into the lives of many.--74.229.102.208 (talk) 00:45, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

pointless comment in Television section

I removed this phrase "How can this be true when he died in 1996?" which was written after the Family guy entry in the Television section. It should've been here in the discussion. I've replaced it with (posthumous)Pongley (talk) 16:38, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Early days

The section about the early days of Gene Kelly do no justic to his name. Please change this part. —Preceding unsigned comment added by GeneKellyusa483 (talk • contribs) 20:10, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Please see WP:So fix it. Wildhartulivie (talk) 20:48, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

No mention of how he was a complete asshole to work with?

Well, I saw a documentary of him on TV, and people that worked with him will tell you that he was a total hard-ass. The article on Singin' in the Rain mentions how he actually made Debbie Reynolds cry. Also, Cyd Charisse once said her husband could tell when she'd been working with Gene if she was bruised all over, and if she came home devoid of physical injuries, then she'd been working with Fred Astaire. 24.189.90.68 (talk) 07:53, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

In response to this, I think asshole is the wrong term to use here. I believe the documentary you are speaking of is the one shown on PBS, and although both women said he was difficult they not once insulted him. As a dancer,I know that dance instructors are notorious perfectionists. It should be noted that Gene's work ethic was difficult but even Debbie Reynolds always defends him in interviews and would never say he was an asshole. The reasons why Cyd had bruises was because Gene's style was lower to the ground which called for more physically demanding dance moves, Fred's center was always higher then Gene's which allows for dancers to be lighter on their feet.To say he is just an "asshole" is not correct, nor right. One should take more thought in the kind of words one uses. Kpasby (talk) 02:27, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

"Well, I saw a documentary of him on TV, and people that worked with him will tell you that he was a total hard-ass" ... well, provide the quotes and name the people who quoted it. Simple. Otherwise, don't exagerrate. 203.9.151.254 (talk) 01:44, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Gene Kelly

Kelly's biography omits his role in "Marjorie Morningstar" with Natalie Wood

pop culture section is a waste

The guy was a very, very famous actor. Of course he has pop references. The only time a pop culture section makes sense is for something obscure. But not John Wayne or Alber Einstein. Similar with Kelly. I wonder if the people making a pop culture section lack perspective? TCO (talk) 14:25, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

/* 1953–57: The decline of the Hollywood musical */

I'm not sure of the reference, so that's why I didn't change it, but it should be mentioned that another reason why Gene went to Europe to shoot more musicals was because his wife Betsy Blair was being blacklisted in Hollywood. This was during the horrible communist blacklisting in Hollywood. I know this information is on the documentary titled The Anatomy of a Dancer but I wasn't sure how to reference documentaries. I suggest a admin could add this info.Kpasby (talk) 02:31, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

Link rot

Would someone take a look at the bare URL's? Otr500 (talk) 17:03, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Gene Kelly's Early Days

" ... [9] While at Pitt, Kelly became involved in the university's Cap and Gown Club, which staged original, comedic musical productions.[10] Earning a Bachelor of Arts degree in Economics with his graduation from Pitt in 1933, he remained active with the Cap and Gown Club, serving as its director from 1934 to 1938, while at the same time enrolling in the University of Pittsburgh Law School.[11] Also during this period, Kelly's family started a dance studio on Munhall Road in the Squirrel Hill neighborhood of Pittsburgh. In 1932, the dance studio was renamed The Gene Kelly Studio of the Dance. A second location was opened in Johnstown, Pennsylvania in 1933. Kelly served as a teacher at the studio during both his undergraduate and law student years at Pitt. In 1931, he was approached by the Rodef Shalom synagogue in Pittsburgh to teach dance, and to stage the annual Kermess. This venture was successful enough that his services were retained for seven years until his departure for New York.[12] Eventually, though, he decided to pursue his career as a dance teacher and full-time entertainer, so Kelly dropped out of law school after two months. He began to increasingly focus on performing and later claimed: "With time I became disenchanted with teaching because the ratio of girls to boys was more than ten to one, and once the girls reached sixteen the dropout rate was very high."[6] In 1937, having successfully managed and developed the family's dance school business, he finally did move to New York City in search of work as a choreographer.[6]"

The above paragraph from your biography contains some significant errors. I know, since I was a part of this phase, and I can document some of it over and above a simple reliance on "memory."

Kelly's dance studio was in the old "El Tower" apartment building on the hilly street above and behind where I lived for almost thirty years. The principal dancing teacher there for most of its existence was Louise, Gene's sister.

Actually, Gene was hired by my mother, Anne U. Greenberg, in late 1933 or early 1934, to replace a dancing teacher at the Beth Shalom Synagogue (NOT the Rodef Shalom Temple, as reported above). The Synagogue had to replace its original teacher, who repeatedly failed to show up for Sunday dancing classes that were sponsored by the Sisterhood. So Anne, a Sisterhood member, "scouted" the University of Pittsburgh's "Cap and Gown" production, and asked its young director (Gene) if he would be interested in teaching. He was, and he was hired at Beth Shalom, where he remained our Sunday afternoon dancing instructor in the social hall until he left for Broadway in 1939.

Gene's dancing classes were an instant success, and they remained so even after Gene went to New York, since he left the school in the hands of his brother, Fred, and shortly afterward, in the hands of his sister, Louise. All three of them used a pianist, named Connie ( ... can't remember her last name), and the business was masterfully managed by the Kellys' mother ... a very strong (but diminutive) person, who lovingly adopted the "tough old broad" role. All three of Anne's kids were enrolled from the beginning, and I, the youngest, may have been Gene's worst student (but also one of his greatest admirers). We all participated in the Kellys' "kermis," (dance recital), held annually at the Taylor Allderdice High School auditorium in Pittsburgh's Squirrel Hill. Two features within those kermises that stand out in my memory are the roller skating routine performed as a special feature by Fred and Gene, and a sailor routine, performed by two senior students. These were easy to remember, as we saw an almost identical skating routine in Gene's movie, "Xanadu," and recognizable elements of the sailor routine were performed in more than one of Gene's other films.

Going beyond Gene's early years:

In October, 1954, my mother, father, and I were hosted on the MGM set and we watched Gene, Stanley Donen, and Dan Dailey preparing for a bar-sequence shot in the studio. Cyd Charise was in costume on a "leaning board," awaiting her turn in the following scene to be cut. When Gene learned that I was taking graduate classes at his Alma Mater, he elaborated at length on his belief that he got more out of his Economics classes at Pitt than in any other classes in his entire career.

I never met James, the oldest Kelly sibling, and I didn't meet Gene's sister Joan Radvansky (known as "Jaye") until 1975, at my parents' 50th Anniversary party, when Gene made a congratulatory phone call. Mother and Gene continued regular correspondence throughout his Hollywood career, for the rest of both of their lives, and they both died within four months of each other in 1996.

Late in his life, probably in the mid-eighties, Gene visited Pittsburgh, and drew a crowd at the downtown Mellon Park. Gene's visit was being televised when he spotted my mother in the crowd, and dragged her up to the stage to dance with him (she was well into her eighties). He announced that "This is the lady who gave me my first job." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.17.108.248 (talk) 05:06, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Donen and Hello Dolly

In glancing through this article I noticed that it did not mention his difficult relationship with Stanley Donen, which has been discussed in many books and is covered at length in the Donen article. Similarly I think that the mentions of Hello Dolly and It's Always Fair Weather gloss over the difficulties those two films encountered at the box office, especially Dolly, and the tensions on the sets in both films. I'm going to try to build those up a bit. Coretheapple (talk) 14:17, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

American Film Institute ranking

The introduction to the article says "...in 1999, the American Film Institute also numbered [Kelly] 15th in their Greatest Male Stars of All Time list." Per the Wikipedia article for that list, "The American Film Institute defined an 'American screen legend' as an actor or a team of actors with a significant screen presence in American feature-length (40 min) films whose screen debut occurred in or before 1950, or whose screen debut occurred after 1950 but whose death has marked a completed body of work." Thus, even veteran stars such as Paul Newman, Sean Connery, Gene Hackman, Robert DeNiro, and Jack Nicholson were not eligible for this honor. I think it would be good to edit the language so that it is clear that the AFI didn't actually do an All Time ranking, even as of 1999 when the poll was done. Arnold Rothstein1921 (talk) 01:15, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

NFCC violations

We have scores of free images of Kelly available at Commons alone. There are out-of-copyright trailers of Kelly's films which can easily supply additional images. Some of the images at issue add nothing of substance to the existing text; illustration is often valuable, but the WMF has made the policy judgment about reuseability and our opinions about aesthetics cannot override it. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo). Treated like dirt by administrators since 2006. (talk) 16:49, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

But "scores of free images" are not representations of two of the most significant movies Kelly made: An American in Paris and Invitation to the Dance./ We do not need just any old pictures of GK, we need to show those films, and there are, to my knowledge, no free shots of those. I have replaced the "Singin' in the Rain" shot (which wasn't great anyway" from one from the trailer. We are not a random gallery of images, the pictures in the articles are supposed to have significance to the subject matter. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:39, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

Alleged IRA contributions

I've removed the sentence alleging Kelly's supposed contributions, credited to a Scottish newspaper and a "free library." WP:V covers this by requiring that "Any exceptional claim requires multiple high-quality sources." Clearly that requirement is not met. Coretheapple (talk) 14:49, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

I think this was a good removal. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:13, 25 February 2017 (UTC)

Kelly's nephew admitted Gene he did give money to the IRA in the 1970s. (2A00:23C4:6392:3C00:C8FF:D503:BC1:2737 (talk) 02:28, 21 March 2017 (UTC))

If you can produce multiple high-quality reliable sources for that extraordinary claim, that he gave money to a terrorist group, please cite. Otherwise do not add it to the article. Coretheapple (talk) 02:53, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

What is extraordinary about it? Many Americans funded the Provisional IRA during the 1970s and 1980s, especially in New York and Boston. There are multiple sources online for Kelly's support for the IRA's bombing campaign. (2A00:23C4:6392:3C00:C8FF:D503:BC1:2737 (talk) 03:00, 21 March 2017 (UTC))

No, there is one source. You posted two links to the same source, Daily Record (Scotland), a Scottish tabloid. WP:V requires multiple sourcing for a claim such as this. One tabloid won't suffice. WP:EXCEPTIONAL takes you to the section of that policy covering situations such as this. Coretheapple (talk) 12:31, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

NFCC image remvoal

The two images that an editor wants to remove from the article on the basis on NFCC #8 are seminal moments in Kelly's career, and no free images are available of those moments. Therefore his continuing to removing them is out of process. Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:07, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

WP:SUBJECTIVE Violation?

The phrase "probably the most popular and admired of all film musicals" seems like a violation of WP:SUBJECTIVE to me.

Lifelong Democrat

Gene Kelly was part of the leadership of the PCA political party. Currently there's a sentence in this entry that states "Kelly was a lifelong supporter of the Democratic Party." Is there a way to mark that statement as needing a citation? Dragonarras (talk) 02:52, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

RfC about description in opening of article and infobox

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Closing remarks: There is clear community consensus that B is the more correct lead sentence. I have also found the users in support of B have stronger arguments. - 🔥𝑰𝒍𝒍𝒖𝒔𝒊𝒐𝒏 𝑭𝒍𝒂𝒎𝒆 (𝒕𝒂𝒍𝒌)🔥 16:46, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

---

Gene Kelly was a multitalented performer, but there is some dispute as to how he should be referred to in the opening of the article. I believe the choices are these:

• A "actor, dancer, singer, filmmaker, and choreographer." This is the current formulation,
• B "dancer, actor, singer, filmmaker and choreographer."

The dispute is basically over whether to put "actor" or "dancer" first. I don't believe the order of the other two is at issue. Coretheapple (talk) 14:29, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

Survey

• I think B is mandated by MOS:FIRST, as the first sentence summarizes the article, and dance (not acting) was his primary legacy. While he did perform in non-dancing roles, they were secondary to his roles in which he danced. (Indeed, as noted in the article, later in his career is television appearance focused on dance, and he even choreographed a ballet) That is also the consensus of reliable sources, which is apparent if one reviews the obituaries at the time of his death:

• New York Times: Headline "Gene Kelly, Dancer of Vigor and Grace, Dies." : "Gene Kelly, the dancer, actor, director and choreographer who brought a vigorous athleticism, casual grace and an earthy masculinity..." [1]
• Los Angeles Times : "Gene Kelly Dies; Legendary Dancer Was 83": "Gene Kelly, the exuberant, charismatic hoofer who danced, sang, smiled and splashed his way into the hearts of generations, died Friday..."[2]
• "Washington Post: "SONG-AND-DANCE MAN GENE KELLY DIES": "Gene Kelly, 83, the dancer whose joyful, brawny and exuberant choreography spoke of ballet and the athletic field yet made him seem like Everyman, died yesterday." Note that this article doesn't even describe him as an actor until far down. [3]
• Here's an appreciation of his life as a "dance icon" by a Knight Ridder columnist, with a side piece describing him as a "dancer's dancer," in the Orange County Register. [4]
• Here's a column at his death by the Pulitzer Prize-winning columnist Paul Greenberg, celebrating Kelly as "The Other Half of American Dance." [5]
• Likewise, the Associated Press emphasized Kelly as a dancer in its lavish coverage of his death. "He was charming, self-made and witty. But more than anything, the man could dance." [6]

--Coretheapple (talk) 14:29, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

• Status quo Kelly was indeed a talented dancer and singer, but he's most famous for being an actor. He was nominated for a best actor Academy Award and he's acted in many famous films. Nemov (talk) 23:05, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

  The same can be said of Fred Astaire, who is the movie star most closely associated with Kelly, and he is listed in his Wikipedia article as a "an American dancer, choreographer, actor, and singer" He received more acting honors than Kelly. Coretheapple (talk) 16:31, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

  Not really convinced per WP:OTHERSTUFF, but actor was listed first there as recently as last July before an IP edit.[7]. Nemov (talk) 19:42, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

  Not sure why anyone would say that Kelly is "most famous for being an actor". Take a look at the links provided by Coretheapple, or any obituary or profile or encyclopedia article or reference article on him. He is by far best known for his dancing and the innovations he brought to dance. The same goes for Frank Sinatra, who, although he starred in a number of films including strictly non-musical roles, and won an Oscar for a non-singing role, is by far best known as a singer. Softlavender (talk) 06:29, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

  This isn't complicated. If you asked most people what they remember about Sinatra they would mention a song he sang. If you asked most people what they remember about Gene Kelly, they would mention a movie for which he was the star. Nemov (talk) 13:09, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

  Well I disagree with you but the process that we employ is not, as you say, complicated. When we differ on phraseology we defer to the reliable sources. We don't substitute our thoughts, feelings and impressions with those of reliable sources. In this case it's a fairly easy process, considering the emphasis in the obits and posthumous books such as Gene Kelly: A Life of Dance and Dreams. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 13:18, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

(1) That's not true, it's just your ill-informed personal opinion. (2) That's not how Wikipedia works, which is based on coverage in reliable sources. Softlavender (talk) 22:48, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

• A I would say he is most famous for dancing in movies. That being said, who cares? Random person no 362478479 (talk) 10:13, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

  BI think the actors should be lined up before the dancers. Even though dance may be his favorite for him, the deepest impression of him is still the actor. He has achieved achievements at the Oscars, creating the image of a strong actor. Winning an Oscar was enough to put his identity as an actor above that of a dancer. Of course, another reason is that in the eyes of the public, there is no award in the dance world that can be compared with the Oscars, and the Oscar is his greatest achievement in the art world in the eyes of the public.악준동 (talk) 07:02, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

• I would also say A – Misty Copeland would be an example of someone who would qualify as "B", IMO. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 16:00, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

• B. First and foremost a dancer, and that is what he is known for. Softlavender (talk) 19:30, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

  He's probably most famously known for "singing in the rain" in a film called Singing in the Rain. Nemov (talk) 14:59, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

  Yes of course. But what set him apart from the hundreds of thousands of other film actors were his innovations in dance, his "every man" style, etc., which was a subject of enormous attention during his life and afterwards. He appeared in nondancing roles, just as Sinatra appeared in nonsinging roles, notably Maggio in From Here to Eternity. But again, if we differ over how to phrase the Sinatra article, we just glance at the sources. Wikipedia editors don't substitute their judgment for the judgment of sources. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 13:31, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

• B per Softlavender and nominator. Not even a close question. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 21:49, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

• C: actor, choreographer, dancer, filmmaker, and singer. When there's a dispute where there's no clear and obvious primary category, just list the alphabetically, as it's objective. oknazevad (talk) 13:59, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

• B. When most people think of Gene Kelly, they think, "a famous dancer who did lots of films". -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:21, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
• B. Per the sources and the arguments above. - SchroCat (talk) 22:19, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
• B I think the issue here is the dissonance between what he is primarily notable for (dance) and what he was most famous for (the movies). He is intrinsically defined as dancer—his movie career was an extension of that—even though he is probably best known to a modern audience through his film work. Betty Logan (talk) 21:50, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

  Yes, I agree, and that is why the sources referred to him as they did. Contrast with Michael Callan, who was a dancer (the original Riff in West Side Story) but ultimately found work almost exclusively as an actor in comedy and dramatic roles. In making these assessments of course we must use the judgment of reliable secondary sources and not our own perceptions of whether his appearing in films means he was an actor first and foremost. Coretheapple (talk) 14:33, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

• B Even on film he was very much the dancer. This is what he is known for. ---Lilach5 (לילך5) discuss 20:07, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
• A Changing the order of the series, while maintaining the same components of the series, won't improve the quality of the lede.Writethisway (talk) 17:55, 13 April 2023 (UTC)
• A I think he was an actor first and foremost because being an actor made him famous. And won the Academy Award for Lifetime Achievement and the Golden Bear Award at the Berlin International Film Festival. Both awards are given to actors. So I think the identity of an actor seems to be more important to him.And his own final choice is to focus more on acting. So I think the identity of an actor should be put in the first place.Hhhh2 (talk) 06:37, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

• B Perfectly obvious, as Gene Kelly was the most famous dancer of his times. Takes precedence over all his other achievements. 24.46.198.79 (talk) 19:27, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
• B - Kelly (at least to me) has always been a dancer, it's because of his dancing he got into the movies (IMO). - FlightTime (open channel) 19:41, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.