Talk:Fascism

Post-Soviet Russia

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Marlene Laruelle, a French political scientist, contends in Is Russia Fascist? that although Russia has been labeled as fascist by different western-affiliated parties before and during the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, supposedly evidenced by Russia's annexation of Crimea; its historical revisionism; attacks on liberal democratic values; and its support for far-right movements in Europe, Russia has positioned itself as the world's leading antifascist power because of its sacrifices during the Second World War. At the same time, it has highlighted how opponents of the Soviet Union in Central and Eastern Europe cooperated with Nazi Germany.

For those who kept reverting my edit, what's wrong with this passage and how can I improve it? The★Super★ninja2 (talk) 08:51, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

I didn't participate in the revert, but I don't think your addition makes sense. What does the (supposed, here too there would be much to discuss) sacrifices of the USSR in World War II have to do with the Russia of Putin? These are two completely different ages. Alex2006 (talk) 09:58, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

They might be two different ages but it's an important part of the Russian history that it determines the Russian political path and its political orientation to this day. History impacts the present. ☆SuperNinja2☆ 13:56, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

None of this would alter them being fascist, though. — Czello 14:01, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

How not? History is the most important part of the present. It's the reason why a country is the way it is. It's the path that led a country to its place and therefore affects most if not all of its actions. ☆SuperNinja2☆ 14:07, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Fighting fascists in the 40s (not out of choice, either) doesn't mean you can't become fascist 80 years on. — Czello 14:10, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Nothing is certain but it reduces the possibility of you being one ☆SuperNinja2☆ 14:16, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

I really don't think it does. However, this is entering WP:NOTAFORUM territory. There's plenty of sources included which argue the case of fascism (through Rashism). — Czello 14:19, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

You're right. This is not a forum so let's stick to the point. The source mentions that "Russia has positioned itself as the world's leading antifascist power" considering its history. it's a fact that she positioned itself at this position according to the source. Whether she has the right to do that, whether you or anybody else recognize it as one, whether her history gives her the credit for this position is not the point. The point is that Russia consider itself as antifascist and this worth mentioning. ☆SuperNinja2☆ 14:36, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

The point is that Russia consider itself as antifascist and this worth mentioning. Well, of course Russia would deny being fascist - it doesn't seem hugely significant. Nonetheless, is this not already mentioned? The article says, efforts to brand opponents as fascist is ultimately an attempt to determine the role of Russia in Europe's future. Unless I'm misinterpreting the meaning of this sentence, it's saying that Russia is attempting to position itself as anti-fascist in the way you described. (Note, this sentence is sourced to the same book - so I think it's effectively a duplication.) — Czello 14:40, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Yes, it is significant according to WP:DUEWEIGHT. And it's not a duplication considering that this addition will explain why it denies being one (because of its sacrifices during the Second World War) ☆SuperNinja2☆ 14:51, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

In which case, how about rewording the current sentence to Laruelle disentangles the basis, significance, and veracity of accusations of fascism in and around Russia through a thorough analysis of the domestic situation in Russia and the Kremlin's foreign policy justifications; she concludes that efforts to brand its opponents as fascist is ultimately an attempt to determine the role of Russia in Europe's future as an antifascist force, influenced by its role in fighting fascism in World War II. This way we can maintain the existing sentence but supplement it with the material you've suggested. (Slight copyedit not included). — Czello 15:12, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

I think this is a good idea. ☆SuperNinja2☆ 15:17, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Brilliant, I've added it now. — Czello 15:27, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

For example, Russia wouldn't have invaded Ukraine if it wasn't part of the USSR and wouldn't use the pretext of it being "nazi" if Russia didn't participate in the WWII. That's just one example. ☆SuperNinja2☆ 14:10, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Aside from being WP:OR, this is also beside the point. Surely the discussion here is whether Russia can be labelled fascist - I have yet to see why being invaded in WW2 undoes their current fascistic actions. — Czello 14:13, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

It's just an example to show you that history affects the present day. ☆SuperNinja2☆ 14:17, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

And possibly emboldens Putin to label his opponents as fascist, but not preventing himself being fascist, as many sources state. — Czello 14:21, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

In addition to what Alex said, I have no idea what that final sentence is supposed to mean. It's whataboutism and completely irrelevant to whether or not Putin's regime is fascist. — Czello 10:23, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

I think it explains the Russian attitude towards the countries of Central and Eastern Europe. ☆SuperNinja2☆ 13:57, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

That wouldn't make them any less fascist. — Czello 14:01, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

I've also just noticed this is a copyright violation.[1] — Czello 10:25, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.