Talk:Electronic harassment

Sources extremely outdated

The source is used to support the psychosis claim are outdated considering the rapid advances in electromagnetic technology +- one source is 16 years old and the others are not much more recent. 2600:1017:B102:E7C7:0:55:D673:A301 (talk) 17:16, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

See WP:NOTFORUM. Your personal opinions on the relevance of advances in technology to this article are of no consequence here. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:47, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

This page is highly inaccurate

This should be removed, these weapons exist and have been not only discussed but physically demonstrated on national television by the military for mainstream media outlets. Even if this was not the case, beam technology or targeted/“hypersonic sound” can be seen as demonstrated in the Ted talk given by Woody Nooris (Ted talk is entitled “Woody Nooris: Hypersonic Sound and Other Interventions”) or on the website for the new MSG sphere in Vegas, where they are using beam forming technology to give individual audience members their very own, unique listening experience. There’s also Havana Syndrome…I think it’s time to remove this topic and give the public the chance to start fresh with a new page (if they wish to). Bluesmyfavecolor (talk) 20:41, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

This isn't People's Encyclopedia. It is Reliable Sources' Encyclopedia. tgeorgescu (talk) 20:49, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

This article is about a conspiracy theory / group delusion that the US government is secretly harassing random individuals by shooting microwaves at their brains. The items you mention are not related. MrOllie (talk) 20:50, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 August 2023

Electronic harassment is considered a delusion by many medical professionals, however there are patents at the U.S. Patent Office owned by the U.S. Air Force and U.S. Intelligence Community proving that the technology to electronically harass people does exist. There are also historical events, such as the Moscow Signal incident, suggesting that electronic harassment may have been used by the United States and Soviet Union, against each other, during the Cold War. Bobduder (talk) 00:27, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

These patents are not evidence that the government is secretly microwaving the brains of random citizens. We will not interpret primary sources (such as patents) to undercut reliable secondary sources, or to prop up delusions or conspiracy theories, that goes against just about every content policy we have. - MrOllie (talk) 00:32, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

 Not done. The request must be of the form "please change X to Y", and must be supported by references to reliable sources. Cullen328 (talk) 00:34, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

The U.S. patent office isn't a reliable source? One of them is a patent owned by the U.S. Air Force. Bobduder (talk) 00:41, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

The U.S. patent office contains patents for many devices which do not exist (and indeed are impossible) such as perpetual motion machines [1]. MrOllie (talk) 00:45, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

I didn't say that it proves that the government is secretly microwaving people's brains, I said there is proof that the technologies to do it to people exist and that there are historical events, like the moscow signal, or havanna syndrome suggesting that it is possible. By the way, the U.S. Academy of Sciences stated that microwave weapons could be behind havanna syndrome.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/02/politics/havana-syndrome-report/index.html Bobduder (talk) 00:39, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Then this request is at best irrelevant, because /this/ article is about symptoms of delusion, not real events. MrOllie (talk) 00:43, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

I cited two real events and technologies suggesting that it could be a real thing. The wikipedia article states at the very beginning that it's a "conspiracy theory" and says that "medical professionals consider it a delusion". Why can't we include information supporting the conspiracy theory? Bobduder (talk) 00:45, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

For the same reason Globe doesn't suggest the earth might be flat. MrOllie (talk) 00:48, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

There is no evidence that the earth is flat. There is evidence for V2K RNM DEW abuse worldwide. 2603:9001:2E02:EBC0:A888:226E:F873:4C61 (talk) 02:08, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

When you get the NY times to write about it, so will we. Should be a big news story. Wikipedia will continue to follow the mainstream on this, as this encyclopedia is designed to do. MrOllie (talk) 02:12, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

The mainstream has reported several times on DEW abuse. Here's one from NBC with proof it is not psychosomatic, and that according to the National Academy of Sciences Havana Syndrome was most likely a "pulsed microwave energy attack". Adding evidence that this isn't psychosomatic only adds to the breadth of the article.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-tmFJDpLuMI&pp=ygUWVjJrIHJubSBuZXcgeW9yayB0aW1lcw%3D%3D 2603:9001:2E02:EBC0:FA2B:59BA:D307:4CA (talk) 04:58, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

just to note [not the New York Times, but ..]: The Washington Post, in a Sunday Magazine cover story article on January 14, 2007, wrote about victims. That article, “Mind Games”, by journalist Sharon Weinberger, appears at [text only]:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/10/AR2007011001399_pf.html  ;

[ The article's 'subtitle text' was: "New on the Internet: a community of people who believe the government is beaming voices into their minds. They may be crazy, but the Pentagon has pursued a weapon that can do just that." ] HRtsFan (talk) 13:00, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Not to mention that electronic harrassment isn't limited to conspiracy theories and that ganstalkers often use forms of electronic harassment. 2603:9001:2E02:EBC0:FA2B:59BA:D307:4CA (talk) 10:50, 26 September 2023 (UT

Besides WP:FRINGE, the problem is WP:SYNTH. You want to connect Electronic harassment is considered a delusion by many medical professionals with however there are patents at the U.S. Patent Office owned by the U.S. Air Force and U.S. Intelligence Community when no reliable WP:FRIND source has indicated these two things are connected and need to be taken into consideration. And adding ...proving that the technology to electronically harass people does exist is again, not supported by any reliable source, and dubious since patent filings don't indicate that a technology will work or does exist. There are also historical events, such as the Moscow Signal incident, suggesting that electronic harassment may have been used by the United States and Soviet Union... Again, this article is about the delusion that ordinary citizens are being targeted by mind control technology. No reliable source exists that connects Moscow Signal (or Havana syndrome) to this delusion or suggests that it may not be a delusion because these incidents occurred. - LuckyLouie (talk) 15:10, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

In addition the the National Academy of Sciences finding above that Havana Syndrome was most likely a pulsed energy weapon attack. I looked up directed energy weapons and law enforcement. Found a mobile version of a DEW called Silent Guardian which is marketed to civilian law enforcement and other security agencies since 2011. It actually states that it is at risk for inappropriate use because of the range. Ref: American Civil Liberties Union.

Regardless of who is at fault both of these sources exhibit evidence that electronic harrasment may not be psychosomatic. 2607:FB91:1842:D524:AC39:8277:99F0:83C9 (talk) 15:50, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

These sources are being interpreted by you as evidence that claims of covert electronic harassment of ordinary citizens may not be persecutory delusions. Because my neighbor owns lawn care chemicals that are poisonous when ingested does not mean he is secretly poisoning me. - LuckyLouie (talk) 16:02, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

So you didn't research the National Academy of Sciences finding that the victims of Havana Syndrome experienced real physical phenomenon not delusions. 2603:9001:2E02:EBC0:892B:9FE2:6A51:430B (talk) 00:47, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

It's irrelevant to this article, which is about people with delusions of persecution. MrOllie (talk) 00:53, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 27 November 2023

This article, like all others on Wikipedia, is based on what published reliable sources have to say on the relevant subject matter itself. We do not engage in original research. This talk page is not a forum for speculation. Since no specific edit, citing appropriate sources directly supporting any such edit, has been proposed, this topic is closed.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Withholding (25 year delay) of U.S. President-ordered reform supports allegations of U.S. victims-community and Public Suspicions On March 27, 1997, President Bill Clinton ordered all? federal agencies then known to do human research to jointly propose, and to attempt to adopt, changes to the governmentwide common federal Policy for the Protection of Human Subjects [the June 1991 'Common Rule'], which would require informed consent for all classified human research. This ordered policy revision for classified human experimentation would: prohibit waiver of informed consent; require researchers to disclose to subjects that the project is classified; require permanent recordkeeping, and, for all studies except minimal risk human research, to require that researchers inform human subjects of the sponsoring agency. In doing so, President Clinton sought to implement a recommendation from the October 1995 Final Report of the federal Advisory Committee on Human Radiation Experiments ['ACHRE'], its Recommendation 15, which recommended "the adoption of a federal policy requiring the informed consent of all human subjects of classified research and that this requirement not be subject to exemption or waiver". Originally, President Clinton's order had stated that "Agencies shall, within 1 year, after considering any comments, promulgate final rules on the protection of human subjects of classified research." However, as of the end of the Clinton Administration in January 2001, a draft notice for the policy change had not been approved by a few of the many agencies involved, and as of October 2023, this policy change has neither been jointly proposed to the Public, nor jointly adopted by the agencies. In June 2015, the U.S. Department of Energy ['DOE'] made a legal finding that the 'Clinton Memo' mandate "is still in effect and applicable to DOE". Subsequently, in January 2016, DOE adopted the basic Clinton Memo requirements as part of its internal policies. In November 2011, the U.S. Department of Defense ['DOD'] changed its internal policies to clearly include requirements of the Clinton Memo, but subsequent revisions to the DOD internal policy since April 2020 have fallen away from clearly stating those requirements, notably abandoning the unambiguous November 2011 statement that "Waivers of informed consent are prohibited." Therefore, the U.S. community of alleged victims of so called "electronic harassment" - but which in reality essentially alleges non-consensual human testing, or other activities, involving advanced technology electromagnetic-signals monitoring and harassment of the human body and brain, typically day and night, most plausibly by the U.S. Government - has reason to worry about the likely involvement of the U.S. Government, because of the U.S. Government's refusal to adopt changes to the governmentwide federal Policy which would clearly prohibit non-consensual classified human experimentation. This non-adoption should cause the Public to be suspicious as well. At the least, (as of October 2023) the U.S. Government appears to not be dedicated to safeguarding the basic U.S. constitutional rights of its citizens from non-consensual classified human testing programs. The requirement for informed consent for all human experimentation is part of the Nuremberg Code, is part of the I.C.C.P.R. human rights treaty (at ICCPR article 7), and is considered as a requirement by the [U.S.] Belmont Report - which remains a Congressionally mandated statement of the basic ethical principles under which federal sponsored human research shall be conducted. HRtsFan (talk) 12:39, 27 November 2023 (UTC) References Even ignoring the obvious synthesis of primary sources involved in the above, it presents precisely zero evidence that the documents concerned have anything to do with the topic of this article - a conspiracy theory alleging that thoughts etc are being transmitted into people's heads - and is accordingly irrelevant to this article. HRtsFan, I'd advise you to familiarise yourself with Wikipedia policies on the appropriate use of sources etc before commenting further. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:08, 27 November 2023 (UTC) Is your assertion that: allegations of electronic harassment have nothing to do with allegations of non-consensual human research/ experimentation? [ so, if electronic harassment were going on, who would be doing it, and why; as you may or may not know: the U.S. Government does have a history of involvement with non-consensual human research/ experimentation? So at least that would be one possibility in an objective person's mind. https://wiki.alquds.edu/?query=Unethical_human_experimentation#:~:text=Unethical%20human%20experimentation%20is%20human,under%20the%20guise%20of%20research ] re: you allege: 'synthesis of primary sources'; If a Blue Ribbon federal Advisory Committee identified a risk to citizens, and President Clinton acts on their recommendations, please describe how is that combo a 'synthesis of primary sources'? [re: blue ribbon: ever heard of Kenneth Feinberg? and also, Jonathan Moreno?; do you consider anyone an accomplished person? a reputable person?] And, concerning DOE, maybe I should have given the fuller, but more verbose, history where: it was Secretary of Energy Hazel O'Leary who, in December 1993, called for a review of radiation experiments from the recently completed Cold War. [ see: https://wiki.alquds.edu/?query=Hazel_R._O%27Leary , search for "experiments" ] I didn't push at you a synthesis. I just mentioned the 'main events' of a coherent little corner of U.S. government history. (And I didn't even mention Senator Glenn, who decried the risks to citizens in his proposing legislation on human experimentation, including a ban on funding non-consensual classified human research, to be based in Congressional law, not 'mere' regulation. President Clinton thanked Senator Glenn for adding to the governmental attention to Human Experimentation.)" The point is: there was a highest level U.S. Governmental finding (blue ribbon panel, endorsed by a [Rhodes Scholar] 2 time elected U.S. President. [ I should stop here. But I want you to know: what is the proper way to think, regarding beliefs? Answer: don't make " conclusions. Just build probabilities. Concluding ['100% and 'forever'] that 'electronic harassment' does not exist is an absurd conclusion. [Because all it takes is one good technology demo, or another Snowden, to reveal the alleged technology, which may in fact exist.] Assigning a probability to it based on current pros and cons? ok. You, and I, can and should do that. Fine. Did you consider: There are no physics principles which preclude using electromagnetic signals to eavesdrop upon bio-neurological, including brain, information? [if you alleged that ultrasound was being used to read real-time neural signals in a detailed manner, then I would doubt it, even though, hey, who knows, but its (currently) doubtful to me.] So why push your OPINION as a 100% certainty upon Wikipedia's audience? How sure SHOULD you, or ANYONE, be that "electronic harassment" is a conspiracy theory? It ain't 100%. And what are the most likely alternatives? Corporate activity? doubtful. Victims, and the U.S. Government employees or other hires who staff the 24/7 'surveillance, monitoring, and harassment' activity, together are part of a 'moon shot', or a '1/10' of the 100,000+ employee Manhattan Project; R+D+T+E -ing [Researching, Developing, Testing, and Evaluating] brain and body monitoring and interaction technology. If you meet the victims [say dozens of employed, and dozens of not-employed, victims], you would conclude: maybe 20%, or at most 40%?? [nah] chance that it is not actually happening to the victims. Many otherwise ordinary persons are functional and 'normal' in all ways EXCEPT that they each are being battered by electromagnetic-signals monitoring and assault/harassment [including in many cases advanced mind-control] 'weaponry', typically day and night. And except for its ill-effect on the person, they are normal in all or many other ways [except that many do get prone to conspiracy theory because, or especially-if, they are not near the science and computer software world, where what they are being abused by is just a very fancy hardware and software U.S. Government mega-project]. Granted, just like the Manhattan Project [100,000+ employees, but secrecy yet 'maintained'], the science of real-time electromagnetic signals monitoring of (and interaction with) brain and body neurology is an undisclosed technology, as of yesterday. Granted. But, you [and everyone] need to build your 'decision tree', and construct the branches. If its not going on then .. [if there were fMRI's lab-rooms within every square mile, then I believe that you would have a problem defending that 'branch' for your beliefs]; if it [electronic harassment] is going on, then: refusal by the U.S. Government to enact protection of citizens from non-consensual classified human research would allow perpetuation of an existing classified 'moon-shot'/ mega-project. Make a list of all of the alleged non-consensual testing programs, and you end up with at most a few, and you end up most prominently with the well-funded mega-project, so called 'electronic harassment'. ] HRtsFan (talk) 09:34, 8 December 2023 (UTC)  Not done An anonymous essay claiming that certain language contained in legislature indicates the US government secretly intends non-consensual testing on humans. No, Wikipedia doesn't indulge evidence-free speculation. - LuckyLouie (talk) 14:16, 27 November 2023 (UTC)