Talk:Eastern Orthodox Church

Splitting proposal into articles titled Eastern Orthodox Church and Eastern Orthodoxy

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of this discussion was to split. Yes, we probably need to rename some articles, but I think the separate WP:RMs should be created for every page. Heanor (talk) 16:39, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

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I propose that sections Theology, Liturgy, Traditions and Holy mysteries be split into a separate page called Eastern Orthodoxy. These sections are large enough to make their own page. The same as we have two pages for Anglican Communion and Anglicanism it is worth to have two pages for the structures of the Orthodox Church as an institution and the religion and its doctrine like in French fr:Église orthodoxe and fr:Christianisme orthodoxe, in Russian ru:Православная церковь and ru:Православие, in Greek el:Ορθόδοξη Εκκλησία and el:Ορθόδοξοι, in Turkish tr:Doğu Ortodoks Kilisesi and tr:Doğu ortodoksluk etc. Heanor (talk) 21:23, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

In English-speaking literature, Eastern Orthodox Communion, Eastern Orthodoxy, and Eastern Orthodox Church seem to be different names for the same thing – while Anglican Communion and Anglicanism do not refer to the same thing in English. Can you prove otherwise? Citing other wikis is not particularly helpful. --Omnipaedista (talk) 22:56, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Omnipaedista, the Anglican Communion is the third largest Christian communion. Anglicanism is a tradition, a doctrine of the Anglican Communion. Eastern Orthodox Church (Eastern Orthodox Communion) is the second largest Christian communion. Eastern Orthodoxy is a tradition, a doctrine of the Eastern Orthodox Church. These can not be different names for the same thing. Church is not the same as a tradition, a doctrine of this church. --Heanor (talk) 12:15, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

That's a fine logical analysis but ultimately meaning is use. If reliable English-speaking sources do not make a distinction between Eastern Orthodox Church and Eastern Orthodoxy, then the whole discussion is pointless per WP:NOR. We need sources to back up the claim that the distinction is meaningful in English-speaking scholarly literature. --Omnipaedista (talk) 13:16, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

The Continuing Anglican movement is not part of the Anglican Communion. Likewise, the Montenegrin Orthodox Church is not part of the Eastern Orthodox Communion. The only difference is that there is ample literature on the internal dynamics of the Anglican Communion but very few resources on the internal dynamics of the Eastern Orthodox Communion. --Omnipaedista (talk) 13:27, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

Why do you think that there is very few resources on the internal dynamics of the Eastern Orthodox Communion? [1], [2] for instance. --Heanor (talk) 14:22, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

I was thinking of more focused works dealing with particular aspects of the internal dynamics a given Christian communion like Anglican Communion in Crisis: How Episcopal Dissidents and Their African Allies Are Reshaping Anglicanism. --Omnipaedista (talk) 17:51, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

Support, I think this will improve readability and avoid confusion between the religion itself and the institution. --Glennznl (talk) 12:45, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Support. One is institutional and the other is a living Christian tradition. —Caorongjin 💬 12:21, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Strong support per nom and others. Super Ψ Dro 19:41, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

By the way, if the article is split, we will probably have to rename some articles such as Marriage in the Eastern Orthodox Church to Marriage in Eastern Orthodoxy. Super Ψ Dro 19:42, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Reassessment note

Elizium23, with respect to the B-Class criteria, criterion 1 said The article is suitably referenced, with inline citations. It has reliable sources, and any important or controversial material which is likely to be challenged is cited. Here are a few paragraphs that does not have any citations at all, which in my opinion does contain important material:

• A number of other Christian churches also...
• The church in Egypt (Patriarchate of Alexandria) split into two groups...
• The Byzantine Empire never fully recovered from the sack of Constantinople in...
• Under the Ottomans, the Greek Orthodox Church acquired substantial power...
• By the time most Orthodox communities came under Muslim rule...
• Other councils have helped to define the Eastern Orthodox position...
• The Eastern Orthodox Church understands the death and resurrection of Jesus to be real historical events, as described in the gospels of the New Testament.
• The Eastern Orthodox Church believes death...
• This does not "make" the person a saint; it merely...
• etc.

This level of uncited material is utterly unacceptable for an article of this importance. Additionally, the article is also missing a lot of important content at section "Art and architecture", "Church services", "Resurrection of Christ", "1996 and 2018 Moscow–Constantinople schisms", "Repentance (Confession)", etc. According to the B-Class criteria criterion 2, The article reasonably covers the topic, and does not contain obvious omissions or inaccuracies. I don't see that's the case. I do agree that just changing the assessment level does not help improve the article much. Rather, I think we should collaborate, start cleaning out the article of junk and add reliable sources to the aforementioned paragraphs. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 02:24, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

Demoting from B-class to C-class is probably fine (I don't think that article classes matter much outside of FA and GA anyway). However, sticking a 'more citations needed' banner at the top of an article with over 200 citations, where the majority of the material is sourced, is extremely vague and unhelpful. Statements or sections that require citations can be tagged specifically. Spicy (talk) 03:16, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

Why is an conspiracy theorist islamphobe like Bat Ye'or used as a source ?

She should be removed 188.236.202.245 (talk) 10:58, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

section labeled "Orthodoxy"

This follows the name section. In this several churches are listed as tracing their heritage/origin back to the beginning, but an important one is missing: Lutheran. Lutherans' official position is that they are the Western Catholic Church, which means they see an uninterrupted line back to the Apostles. For that matter, the Methodists ought to be included as well since John Wesley was careful to make sure that Methodist bishops were in the same unbroken line as the Anglicans from whom they were derived. I'll be looking for sources but if anyone stumbles across this and knows/finds one in the interim, go ahead and edit! Dismalscholar (talk) 05:35, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Macedonians should be added ; as they were part of a genocide during the Ottoman Empire for over 500 years

Macedonians should be added ; as they were part of a genocide during the Ottoman Empire for over 500 years. 124.170.170.72 (talk) 05:19, 23 January 2023 (UTC)