Talk:Druze

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Discussing changes suggested to introduction[edit]

Please lets discuss these points on the current Druze article versus my suggested changes :

The Druze faith is an esoteric monotheistic religion based on the teachings of several Ismaili figures like Hamza ibn-'Ali ibn-Ahmad and Al-Muqtana Baha'uddin who were influenced by Greek philosophers such as Plato ,Aristotle and Plotinus.

Versus

The Druze faith is a monotheistic and Abrahamic religion based on the teachings of high Islamic figures like Hamza ibn-'Ali ibn-Ahmad and Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah, and Greek philosophers such as Plato and Aristotle.


Reason for Edit : - The main distiction about the Druze faith is being esoteric Batini this should be mentioned

- Druze are not an Abrahamic religion but monotheist , the position of Abraham is different for the Druze than the three abrahamic faiths

- high Islamic figures is not accurate , the prophet mohammad is a high islamic figure , Hamza was a preacher , Al-Hakim was the Fatimid Caliph , a more historically accurate and appropriate description is Ismaili

and other philosophies and beliefs, creating a distinct syncretic and secretive theology that is passed on through initiation

Verus :

and secretive theology known to interpret esoterically religious scriptures, and to highlight the role of the mind and truthfulness.

Reason for Edit :

Role of the mind and truthfulness is an over simplification of the Druze theology and its the universal mind nous rather than mind as human mind


− Also

Druze are theologically distinct from Muslims due to their eclectic system of doctrines [1] such as the belief in theophany and reincarnation .[2] , although Al Azhar of Egypt recognized them in 1959 as one of the Islamic sects in the Al-Azhar Shia Fatwa. [3][4][5][6][7]

− − − The Druze were subjected to persecution due to political and religious reasons during the Fatimid, Mamluks and Ottomans rule .[8] Most recently, Druze were targeted by the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant and Al-Qaeda[9] in order to cleanse Syria and neighboring countries of non-Islamic influence.[10]

Reason for Edit : Its important to mention main difference between Druze and orthodox islam as well the source of Fatwa

Also subsituted the persecution paragraph with a summary since its the introduction and details are found in body

References

  1. ^ "Druze". Britannica.
  2. ^ Nisan 2002, p. 95.
  3. ^ "Reforming Islam in Egypt". Economist.
  4. ^ Nisan, Mordechai. Minorities in the Middle East: A History of Struggle and Self-Expression. McFarland. ISBN 0-7864-5133-5.
  5. ^ Kayyali, Randa. The Arab Americans. Greenwood Publishing Group. ISBN 0-313-33219-3.
  6. ^ Sorenson, David. Global Security Watch-Lebanon: A Reference Handbook: A Reference Handbook. ABC-CLIO. ISBN 0-313-36579-2.
  7. ^ Abdul-Rahman, Muhammed Saed. Islam: Questions And Answers — Schools of Thought, Religions and Sects. AMSA Publication Limited. ISBN 5-551-29049-2.
  8. ^ Hitti 1924.
  9. ^ Al-Khalidi, Suleiman. "Calls for aid to Syria's Druze after al Qaeda kills 20". Reuters.
  10. ^ "Syria: ISIS Imposes 'Sharia' on Idlib's Druze".

Elaboration[edit]

@Dan Palraz: Please elaborate here, thanks. HistoryofIran (talk) 17:29, 13 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Sorry, but what you are asking is impossible. If you really can't see for yourself how:

"The Druze are an Arabic-speaking esoteric ethnoreligious group from Western Asia who adhere to the Druze faith, an Abrahamic, monotheistic, syncretic, and ethnic religion based on the teachings of Hamza ibn Ali ibn Ahmad and ancient Greek philosophers like Plato, Aristotle, Pythagoras, and Zeno of Citium"

is a better lead than:

"Druze are an Arabic-speaking esoteric ethnoreligious group from Western Asia who adhere to a religious faith that originally developed out of Isma'ilism, a branch of Shia Islam, although they do not identify as Muslims",

then I simply can't continue editing. Would you be so kind as to actually look at the versions, see if there is any evil bias in my edits or if it's really just someone trying to make it a better encyclopedic article, and, if you do agree it is the case, just allow me to continue doing it? What you're asking, on the other hand - that I "explain" how the above lead is better than the previous one - is not really practical, I hope you will agree... Dan Palraz (talk) 17:39, 13 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

If you don't want to explain, then that's your own problem. Fyi, none of us are getting paid here. Perhaps that sentence could use a rewriting to make it sound better, but I'm not sure what that has to do with removing 17k information.--HistoryofIran (talk) 17:43, 13 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Again, do you have a real problem with my proposed lead, or can I now re-add it? Seems like you don't really have a problem with the edits themselves, but with not doing them with your permission... Dan Palraz (talk) 17:46, 13 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Oh please, drop the silly remarks. You brought this on yourself [1] [2] [3]. Removing loads of sourced information across several articles with no actual explanation, what did you expect? Let me ask you this; If your main gripe is how some stuff in this article is worded, why remove the cited sources? --HistoryofIran (talk) 17:51, 13 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
It is not the wording, the article as you put it back now says that Ad-Darazi is one of "the seven prophets of the Druze". Again, if you know anything about the Druze you should know it is absurd, it sounds like a good joke, Ad-Darazi is actually an antagonist to the Druze... But I honestly have no strength to explain every single edit like this... Dan Palraz (talk) 17:54, 13 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
If you don't want to explain, then that's on you. This is what the two sources (which you just removed here [4]) say;
N. Stearns, Peter (2008). The Oxford Encyclopedia of the Modern World. Oxford University Press. p. 574. ISBN 9780195176322. "Druze venerate seven prophets: Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, and Muhammad ibn Ismai'il ad-Darazi."
Seddon, David (2013). A Political and Economic Dictionary of the Middle East. Routledge. p. 74. ISBN 9781135355616. "Druze believe in seven prophets: Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, and Muhammad ibn Ismail ad-Darazi. They also have a special affinity with Shueib, or Jethro, the father-in-law of Moses."
One is published by Oxford University Press, the other by Routledge. So why are these wrong and you are right? --HistoryofIran (talk) 18:04, 13 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
It would appear that these sources support the idea that Muhammad ibn Ismai'il ad-Darazi is considered a prophet by the Druze. Dan Palraz, could you cite and quote us a reliable source that says that he was an antagonist to the Druze instead? ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 20:42, 13 November 2022 (UTC) I have now found and quoted sources that say this below. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 01:14, 14 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
In the proposed lead sentence here, Pythagoras, and Zeno of Citium cannot be right. Scholars agree that Pythagoras' own teachings are irrecoverably lost and that Pythagoreanism is a very diverse tradition which developed a number of mutually very different doctrines throughout the ages (so the question would always be, which 'Pythagoreanism' do you mean?). As for Zeno of Citium, his writings are lost too and his doctrines have only been reconstructed in the modern age. What reliable source claims that the early Druze had direct access to Zeno's teachings? I would like to see direct quotes from the sources here (see this courtesy rule).
In general, Dan Palraz, please go back to the status WP:QUO version (which would be this one), and make small changes from there, one at a time. When one of the changes get challenged, you can quote the reliable sources that support it at the talk page. If you can show us that your edits are well grounded in the sources, they will likely get challenged less in the future. Thanks, ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 20:29, 13 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
This whole article looks like it's been made by trolls. Almost nothing in it is correct. The page manages to get wrong the Faith's Canons, the Faith's prophets, the Faith's founder... Of the seven prophets of the Druze, it is normally said: "They also hold that there were seven great prophets: Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, and Muhammad ibn Isma'il (the founder of the Ismaili sect)". (source: https://books.google.co.il/books?id=Sw9YDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT262&dq=Druze+venerate+seven+prophets:+Adam,+Noah,+Abraham,+Moses,+Jesus%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwili4KGnqz7AhVoRPEDHZ4aBscQ6AF6BAgHEAI#v=onepage&q=Druze%20venerate%20seven%20prophets%3A%20Adam%2C%20Noah%2C%20Abraham%2C%20Moses%2C%20Jesus%22&f=false)
So clearly the source simply mixed Muhammad ibn Isma'il (the founder of the Ismaili sect) with Muhammad bin Ismail ad-Darazi, the Druzes' antagonist. Can happen to someone who doesn't know about the topic being written. But when someone who does know try to fix it, please... This simple example shows that the article has relied on clearly fictitious work, and that it will take a lot of work to go through the whole article with facts, but if I have to discuss each change with people who don't even know that ad-Darazi is not one of the "seven prophets of the Druze", a work that would already take days will have to take months. So, please, if you're for some reason so much into it, please open yourselves a serious, recent book about the Druzes (such as https://books.google.co.il/books?id=TlCHg5EblxEC&dq=Historical+Dictionary+of+the+Druzes+(Historical+Dictionaries+of+Peoples+and+Cultures)&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y ) to see that all I'm adding is verified material... Dan Palraz (talk) 22:37, 13 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The Evangelical Dictionary of World Religions doesn't seem to be appropiate in this context, see its author (they specialize in evangelical Christianity?). As for the second book, could you quote a passage that contradicts that of the two sources above. And we get it, you don't like to explain yourself, I think it's the fourth time you have said it now. That is however not how it works here in Wikipedia, where you are expected to be able to work together with other editors. If you can't be bothered to explain, then don't edit, simple. --HistoryofIran (talk) 22:50, 13 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Just open Google Books, there are hundreds of other sources (for example: https://books.google.co.il/books?id=pYgvLf2GE8YC&pg=PT28&dq=Druze+prophets&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjOuoWLnaz7AhXOQ_EDHRV0C0IQ6AF6BAgGEAI#v=onepage&q=Druze%20prophets&f=false) that explain how one of the prophets of the Druze is Muhammad ibn Isma'il (the founder of Ismailism) and not Muhammad bin Ismail ad-Darazi, a totally different bloke. I simply don't have the time to edit the whole article and have one chat with you on each of the dozens of mistakes in the article. So, if personally interacting with you is mandatory to edit this specific article, for the sake of my mental health I prefer leaving the article full of mistakes as it is. If you allow me to edit it again using actual sources written by people who actually know something about the Druze and who know how to distinguish two different characters with similar names, I am still willing to help. Dan Palraz (talk) 23:05, 13 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
It appears that Dan Palraz is right. I checked a number of expert sources, and while most do not mention a canon of seven prophets at all, the following do:
  • The Druze faith can be said to acknowledge the existence of seven prophets of different periods: Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, and Muhammad ibn Isma'il, who founded the Isma'iliyya sect. (Dana 2003, p. 17) Aside from these seven prophets, the Druze recognize other prophets, among them the prophets mentioned in the scriptures of the three monotheistic religions. Muhammad ibn Isma'il was the seventh Shi'ite Imam; he died young in the year 762 and is considered, as stated, the founder of the Isma'iliyya sect. (Dana 2003, p. 187, in footnote no. 8 to p. 17)
  • Then there was another declarer, the seventh, in the Druze (and Isma'ili) tra­dition after the Prophet Muhammad. The seventh declarer was Muhammad ibn Isma'il ibn Ja'far al-Sadiq. (Obeid 2006, p. 127 harvnb error: multiple targets (2×): CITEREFObeid2006 (help); this follows the mention of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad as the preceding six 'declarers' on pp. 125–126)
  • The second central idea of Druze cosmology involves three types of intermediaries (between God and mankind). These were, first, the prophets or spokesmen and included Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, and Muhammad Ibn Isma‘il. Second, for each spokesman (natiq), there was a helper or foundation (asas) [...] (Swayd 2006, p. 44)
It would indeed be strange that the Druze would venerate al-Darazi as a prophet, given that al-Darazi was repudiated by Hamza ibn Ali:
  • A split developed in the movement, one faction following Nashtakm al-Darazi. Hamza asserts that Darazi had recognized his imamate, but had later claimed to be sayyid al-hadiyyin (chief guide), i.e. superior to Hamza who was hadi al-mustajibin (guide of the neophytes). Darazi styled himself the sword of the faith and tried to bring converts by force, against which Hamza warns, saying the faith is not in need of the sword, and urges persuasion and gentle reasoning. Hamza rebukes Darazi for trying to raise the building without foundation, the foundation being true knowledge of which Darazi is devoid. [...] Darazi did not leave Egypt and he disappeared at an early stage in the da'wa. The name of this man who is repudiated by the Druzes was affixed to the movement, probably because of the stir which he created. (Abu-Izzeddin 1984, pp. 103–104)
As for the two sources currently cited in the article (Stearns 2008 and Seddon 2013), at first I suspected that they were misquoted, but then I checked them (Google Books links [5] [6]) and they do indeed append "ad-Darazi" after "Muhammad ibn Isma'il". However, neither of these two sources is an expert on the Druze, and given what the expert sources above say I think it's fairly clear that our two currently cited sources are wrong. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 01:10, 14 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I guess that settles that part. Thanks Apaugasma, I have reverted myself at Ad-Darazi. --HistoryofIran (talk) 06:05, 14 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thanks a lot, Apaugasma, for the effort put into confirming that some of the sources used in this Wikipedia article are mostly not really trustable on what they claim about the Druze faith - a faith whose tenets are kept secret on purpose, even from the majority of the Druze themselves. You are absolutely correct also in your assertion that "In the proposed lead sentence here, Pythagoras, and Zeno of Citium cannot be right", for all the reason you elaborated on above. I will trim this part of the intro too, then, to leave it with what we can know with absolute certainty to be correct. Once I have the time to do it, it would be a great idea to collectively go through the whole article, fact-checking it. My proposition for the intro:
The Druze (/ˈdruːz/;[1] Arabic: دَرْزِيٌّ, darzī or Arabic: دُرْزِيٌّ durzī, pl. دُرُوزٌ, durūz) are an Arabic-speaking esoteric ethnoreligious group[2][3] from Western Asia who adhere to the Druze faith, an Abrahamic, monotheistic, syncretic, and ethnic religion whose main tenets are the unity of God and the belief in reincarnation and the eternity of the soul.[4][5][6][7] Adherents of the Druze religion call themselves "the Monotheists" or "the Unitarians" (al-Muwaḥḥidūn).[8] Most Druze religious practices are kept secret.[9] The Druze do not permit outsiders to convert to their religion, nor are Druze permitted to convert away from the Druze faith. Marriage outside the Druze faith is rare and strongly discouraged.[9] The Druze faith is based on the teachings of 11th-century Hamza ibn Ali. The Epistles of Wisdom..."
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Dan Palraz (talk • contribs) 15:18, 19 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Hi Dan Palraz, thanks for the ping. Unfortunately I don't have time to look into this now (the article also currently is not on my watchlist), but prima facie your proposal looks good to me. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 13:28, 20 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

References

  1. ^ "Definition of druze". Dictionary.com. 2013-07-18. Retrieved 2019-08-26.
  2. ^ Chatty, Dawn (2010-03-15). Displacement and Dispossession in the Modern Middle East. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-0-521-81792-9.
  3. ^ Simon Harrison (2006). Fracturing Resemblances: Identity and Mimetic Conflict in Melanesia and the West. Berghahn Books. pp. 121–. ISBN 978-1-57181-680-1.
  4. ^ Abulafia, Anna Sapir (23 September 2019). "The Abrahamic religions". www.bl.uk. London: British Library. Archived from the original on 12 July 2020. Retrieved 9 March 2021.
  5. ^ Obeid, Anis (2006). The Druze & Their Faith in Tawhid. Syracuse University Press. p. 1. ISBN 978-0-8156-5257-1.
  6. ^ Léo-Paul Dana (1 January 2010). Entrepreneurship and Religion. Edward Elgar Publishing. p. 314. ISBN 978-1-84980-632-9.
  7. ^ Terri Morrison; Wayne A. Conaway (24 July 2006). Kiss, Bow, Or Shake Hands: The Bestselling Guide to Doing Business in More Than 60 Countries (illustrated ed.). Adams Media. p. 259. ISBN 978-1-59337-368-9.
  8. ^ Doniger, Wendy (1999). Merriam-Webster's Encyclopedia of World Religions. Merriam-Webster, Inc. ISBN 978-0-87779-044-0.
  9. ^ a b "Druze | History, Religion, & Facts | Britannica". www.britannica.com. Retrieved 2022-11-13.

Typo[edit]

It appears that you misspelled "or" in the last sentence of the introductory paragraph. Callum Cuda (talk) 09:00, 17 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

 Fixed [7] ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 15:43, 17 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Link with Atenism of Ancient Egypt[edit]

In the Atenism page (https://wiki.alquds.edu/?query=Atenism) there's a section saying this: "The modern Druze regard their religion as being descended from and influenced by older monotheistic and mystic movements, including Atenism.[24] In particular, they attribute the Tawhid's first public declaration to Akhenaten.[25]" Considering the article says Druze are syncretic and already incorporate Greek philosophers, i think mentioning this link to Ancient Egypt somewhere in the article would be nice too 138.255.51.40 (talk) 00:51, 26 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Replying to my own to also say something else i found, Akhenaten's own page in the legacy section mentions he is recognized as a prophet in Druze too, i think that also could be mentioned 138.255.51.40 (talk) 21:38, 26 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Typo under “Culture” section[edit]

In the language subsection:

“The mother tongue of Druze in Syria, Lebanon and Israel is Levantine Arabic, except those born and lives (sic) in the Druze diaspora such as Venezuela, where Arabic was not taught or spoken at home.”

I am not yet at 500 edits, so just pointing this out for someone else to edit. -.+ThAYYta+.- (talk) 04:53, 30 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

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