Talk:Das Rheingold

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"Rhine gold" and "Rhine maidens" as two words[edit]

I have changed "Rheingold"/"Rhinegold" (meaning the gold, not the opera) and "Rhinemaidens" to "Rhine gold" and "Rhine maidens" throughout the four synopses because

  • this is English, not German
  • the expressions as single words are unknown outside the operas and these synopses are to introduce the operas to know who do not know them
  • the space makes no difference to the emphasis when spoken. --Hugh7 (talk) 02:42, 13 October 2009 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Erickson reference[edit]

Does anyone know what the full reference is for (Erickson 1975, p.94) nentioned in the text?--Dogbertd 10:38, 22 September 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]


In Act 4, Freia is referred to as Holda twice -- once by Fafner, once by herself. Does anyone know what Holda means? Wrcolbrook 15:24, 21 August 2007 (UTC)wrcolbrookReply[reply]

It's an alternative name for her, I believe, and it enables Wagner to engage in a little wordplay ("Freia, die Holde, Holda, die Freie"), not that the article Holda makes any mention of Freia. It's Fasolt who uses the name, by the way, not Fafner. --GuillaumeTell 17:32, 21 August 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Wrong. It's Fafner who uses the term, and later Freia herself. Does anyone know where the name Holda comes from or why it's suddenly introduced?Wrcolbrook 01:45, 22 August 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

You're wrong as well (and uncivil, too). As well as Fafner's mention of Holda, Fasolt sings "Freia, die Holde, Holda, die Freie, vertragen ist's, sie tragen wir heim." If you don't believe me, look here. And I've also answered your other questions, though you don't seem to have noticed. --GuillaumeTell 21:45, 10 September 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Sorry, but Freia and Holda are two different people, despite Fasolt's "play on words." In German mythology, Holda has a dark side also. I doubt that Wagner meant Freia to have a dark side. In your original "answer," you said "I believe," which implies that you're conjecturing, not answering. Do you know the difference between Holde and Holda?Wrcolbrook 23:14, 13 September 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Wagner is certainly at least treating Holda and Freia as if they are alternative names for the same goddess. Holde means "fair" and Freie means "free", so the pun that Wagner is using is "Freia the fair, Holda the free".--RLent (talk) 20:29, 30 January 2008 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Reception and Reviews[edit]

Is it known what the audience and critics thought of Rheingold? I recall from my music history courses that several of Hr Wagner's music-dramas were less than popular when first produced. Adding this information to the article would improve it, I think. Cordially, --Drieux 17:41, 22 September 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]


In the synopsis, the following sentence occurs: "It was claimed by Wagner in his autobiography Mein Leben[4] that the musical idea came to him while he was half asleep in a hotel in La Spezia in Italy, but this has been disputed by Deathridge and others.[5]"

This should not be part of the synopsis. It does not tell anything about what's happening at this point in the opera. It belongs in the COMPOSITION HISTORY section, not the synopsis. (talk) 02:10, 30 January 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Infoboxes should be added after discussion on talkpage. No discussion took place here. I don't think the box very appropriate. Have removed it pending further discussion. I am flagging the issue at WP:Opera and WP:Wagner.--Smerus (talk) 10:25, 27 August 2015 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Assessment comment[edit]

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Das Rheingold/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Comment(s)Press [show] to view →
It's quite difficult to rate this article, since much of the relevant material is actually in the three articles about the Ring. Taking what is dealt with there into account, my rating is B (though it might be better to summarise the detail in the Ring articles in the articles on the individual operas - see William Shakespeare for an example of this approach). Other suggestions for improvements:
  • Performance History: there is no "revised version" of 1876.
  • Roles: should show who the characters are, e.g. that Fricka is Wotan's wife
  • Arias, etc. should be shown in the synopsis with German first lines where appropriate
  • Recordings (in the Ring article) - more detail, and perhaps some weeding, is required. Maybe a separate page a la Flying Dutchman?

--GuillaumeTell 21:53, 10 September 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

B class (66 points). I have 'credited' this article with the information in the three Ring articles (Der Ring des Nibelungen, Der Ring des Nibelungen: Composition of the text, Der Ring des Nibelungen: Composition of the music). (Obviously we don't want information spread and duplicated in different articles.) I agree with all GuillaumeTell's comments above. Specifically it would be good to have:

  • A section on the critical reaction to the opera
  • A full discography including historic recordings
  • Also, 'Noted excerpts' could be integrated into the synopsis.

-- Kleinzach 00:17, 11 September 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Low Start 35/100. I disagree with the above reviewers on fully crediting the contents of the other articles. WP:Summary makes it clear that a summary of the information should be included here as well as the more detailed analysis elsewhere.

  • Background/history of composition/discussion of plot and/or text, etc. 5/15: Most of these points are credited for the link to the composition articles. The detailed information belongs there, but I would expect at least start and end dates. The lead section is also meant to be a summary, so I would expect Rheingold's role in the Ring cycle as a whole to be mentioned, the satyr play concept and that it is distinguished from the other operas by having an exclusively supernatural cast.
  • Performance history, including recent performance history and creators of roles 5/15. I would expect discussion on how Ludwig put it on against Wagner's wishes and how often this opera gets performed outside the context of the Ring.
  • List of roles 4/5. Description of what the gods are gods of and who is whose sibling would improve this. I also suggest having one Vogl box spread over both columns.
  • Synopsis 7/10. No obvious gaps. But there is information here that really belongs in a music section and the key numbers should be highlighted here as commented above.
  • Notable arias etc. 3/5. I sould have expected Vollendet, das ewige Werk (or whatever the correct German is. to be included and maybe Alberich's song to the Nibelungs. I've got a box of early recordings of excerpts, so I'll see which bits are listed there. As indicated above, this list should be embeded in the synopsis.
  • Critical opinion/discussion of the music. 4/15 The former isn't really covered at all. I would expect a comment on how this opera is closest to the ideal of the music drama than some of the later Ring operas. Musical illustrations would also help.
  • Recordings 0/10 not mentioned. There are some recordings of Rheingold separate from complete cycles. I think in the long term, there may be a full discography of the Ring including separate operas, but something should be mentioned here.
  • Illustrations, including musical illustrations 4/10. It's good to have the Rackhams. However, I would suggest a picture of Wagner at the time he was working on the Ring and maybe pictures from the first production, e.g. the famous one of the Rheinmaidens on their machine. Musical illustrations of the opening of the prelude and the interlude with the anvils should be included and preferably other numbers too.
  • Inline references, notes, sources, external links 3/10. A start has been made on this . It is good to see a link to the vocal score, for example.

--Peter cohen 12:24, 18 September 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Further to discussion at WT:Richard Wagner I am downgrading this article to Start as the views expressed there are that information from other articles should not be assumed.--Peter cohen (talk) 19:01, 22 September 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Last edited at 19:01, 22 September 2010 (UTC). Substituted at 12:52, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

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Revision, expansion and referencing[edit]

I am undertaking some revision and expansion of the content, and will deal with the current referencing issues. The article may look a little lopsided for a while. Brianboulton (talk) 19:59, 13 July 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I like to see a background section grow, but wonder if it isn't more about the Ring than this particular part. Will it be repeated in all four parts? Or should it perhaps move to Der Ring des Nibelungen? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:07, 16 July 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Each Ring article should be self-contained, which requires it to be placed in the context of the cycle, hence the background. It may be possible to trim the section when the article is further advanced - it's early days as yet. Brianboulton (talk) 10:02, 21 July 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Understand, thank you. Will you, once it's later days, copy that to the others, especially the sadly short Ring. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:06, 21 July 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I'm not thinking beyond Rheingold at the moment. The articles on the other Ring operas are very short on detail except plot descriptions, and the Der Ring des Nibelungen article is hopelessly inadequate. All this can be remedied in due course, but it will take months of work. Brianboulton (talk) 13:13, 21 July 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]


When improving, can we stick to the original name of the Rhine maiden, Floßhilde (long vowel, not Flosshilde which suggests a short vowel), see [1]? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:16, 16 July 2018 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The eszett is not used in modern English orthography. Steepleman (t) 05:20, 4 February 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Writing History / "Scandinavian" Eddas?[edit]

Is it really the Scandinavian Eddas? Scandinavia does not include Iceland nor Finland and Edda's author, Snorri, was from Iceland. Prose Edda, also known as the Younger Edda or Snorri's Edda, was composed by Snorri. The Poetic Eddda is not Snorri's work, but the oldest manuscripts of this version came from Iceland. The two Edda's together are not to my knowledge referred to as the Scandinavian Eddas. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pulper123 (talkcontribs) 22:14, 17 June 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]