Talk:Cornish dialect

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Creation of article[edit]

The Anglo-Cornish dialect is an important part of the history of Cornwall, and deserves an article of its own. There is not much here at the moment but it will be expanded dreckly. Govynn (talk) 06:18, 15 June 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

A section on the rise of English and decline of Cornish would be useful. Bodrugan (talk) 12:39, 15 June 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Please keep this article. The Cornish dialect is a stand-alone subject, and can't be lumped in with a vague "West Country" category. It contains many words that descend directly from the Cornish language, which other dialects of the south-west do not share, and many other features that are also unique to Cornwall, and even to specific regions of Cornwall. I find it remarkable and somewhat disturbing that a call for its deletion has even been lodged. One hopes that the reason is merely ignorance of the subject rather than bigotry. Marhek (talk) 10:17, 15 June 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

You need to comment at the appropriate page. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:31, 15 June 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I'll take the liberty of copying this to the other place. Govynn (talk) 12:59, 15 June 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Rename article[edit]

I would suggest that this article is renamed Cornish English to correspond with Welsh English and Hiberno-English.Bodrugan (talk) 12:36, 15 June 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

the question is what do the various sources say? Many sources use "Cornish dialect" but I used "Anglo-Cornish" to avoid confusion with Kernewek by those not familiar with the topic. Is not "Anglo-Manx" also used in some places? Govynn (talk) 13:01, 15 June 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Alan M. Kent uses Anglo-Cornish (and also suggests Cornu-English, but I think that would be a step to far). DuncanHill (talk) 13:09, 15 June 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Google Fight[edit]

How about settling this with a Google Fight? [URL] "Cornish Dialect" clearly wins 769-105 vs "Anglo-Cornish". However "Cornish English" gets 1630. "Cornu-English" gets 43. Govynn (talk) 20:11, 15 June 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Google Scholar[edit]

Govynn (talk) 20:17, 15 June 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Google Books[edit]

Of course, a real assessment should come from a look at the content returned by the above queries more than the numbers of results. The key task now is to add more material and add references. Naming can be settled later, and redirects can be put in place. Govynn (talk) 20:32, 15 June 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]


These are in the List of Cornish dialect words and might be useful here as well:

  • Crease - children's truce term (west Cornwall)[1](from the Cornish word for "peace")
  • Fains - children's truce term (east Cornwall)[2]
  • Crib - a mid-morning break for a snack (see below also)[3]
  • Croust (or Crowst) - a mid-morning break for a snack (usually west Cornwall)[4]
  1. ^ Opie, Iona & Peter (1959) The Lore and Language of Schoolchildren. Oxford: Clarendon Press; map on p. 149
  2. ^ Opie, Iona & Peter (1959) The Lore and Language of Schoolchildren. Oxford: Clarendon Press; map on p. 149 & "fains or fainites", p. 151
  3. ^ The Oxford English Dictionary (2nd ed.) has "Food, provisions, light meal, etc." (dialectal) as one of the meanings of "crib" giving several examples including quotations from M. A. Courtney's Glossary (1880) and Rowse's Cornish Childhood (1942).
  4. ^ In An Gerlyver Meur 'croust' is given as meaning 'picnic lunch, meal taken to work, snack', and says it is attested in Origo Mundi, line 1901 (written in the 14th century). It also says it comes from Middle English 'crouste', which in turn came from Old French 'crouste'. So it appears that the word was indeed a loan from Middle English but it was in use as part of the Cornish language long before the language died out, and seems to have entered the Anglo-Cornish dialect from the Cornish language.

--Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 07:10, 16 June 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

No-one has or asserts ownership of the article, and any editor is free to merge any of the above into the article itself. Govynn (talk) 10:22, 16 June 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Yes I will do that at some stage; the derivation of "crease" from the Cornish for "peace" could be supported by a reference to a Cornish dictionary. (I do not know any of the Cornish language except as place-name elements.)--Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 12:17, 16 June 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Discrimination (sociolinguistics section)[edit]

It is well known among Cornish people, that Anglo-Cornish speakers have been discriminated against, both for using dialect, and as a marker of Cornish ethnicity. However specific sources, of individual instances, or scholarly articles on the topic would be good to cite. Govynn (talk) 10:24, 16 June 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Nunga (South Australia)[edit]

Having a look for information on the Nunga, there is this article - It′s ours to keep and call our own: reclamation of the Nunga languages in the Adelaide region, South Australia], although I don't have access to the full text, so am not sure if it anywhere directly addresses the topic of Cornish dialect. This also may be relevant, if the full text does touch on the impact of Cornish dialect. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Govynn (talkcontribs) 11:48, 16 June 2011

?? Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:04, 16 June 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]
What is your question? Govynn (talk) 12:25, 16 June 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I have no idea how this is relevant to the article. Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:52, 16 June 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This is what you want: Bodrugan (talk) 13:04, 16 June 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Standard written form of Cornish[edit]

ant, n, moryonen (f), moryon (coll). Bodrugan (talk) 13:50, 16 June 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Did you know...?[edit]

I've nominated the article at Template talk:Did you know#Articles created/expanded on June 15. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:06, 17 June 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

OK, thanks. Govynn (talk) 16:33, 17 June 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]
please correct your mistake in crediting it to the wrong editor. The history below shows that it was me who added it: Bodrugan (talk) 21:42, 17 June 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]
No offence intended, but that's not quite how DYK works. It's the article creator who is nominated, plus in certain cases other major contributors, and it is then up to the nominator to devise the "hook". I came up with the hook without looking to see who had added that particular sentence as that's not usually part of the process, but in the circumstances I'm perfectly happy to put your name forward as another major contributor. As I said, no offence intended. Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:23, 17 June 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]
but Govynn was the one who created the article not the person you credited. Bodrugan (talk) 23:49, 17 June 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Yes, that's what it says. FFS and you should get credits as additional contributors. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:17, 18 June 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Change in wording of intro[edit]

I have changed the wording of the first two sentences, making it more clear in my view. The previous wording could potentially lead readers to suppose that 'Anglo-Cornish', 'Cornish English', 'Cornish dialect' and 'Cornu-English' are distinct linguistic forms, clearly defined and separated from each other, rather than being a variation in name usage by the varying sources. I am also entering dangerous territory by deleting the letter s in dialects. My reading of the way in which Cornish Dialect is written about in the sources is that the geographical variations of dialect within Cornwall, are seen as variations within something that is called 'Cornish Dialect', or 'Anglo-Cornish', rather than distinct dialects associated with specifically defined regions of Cornwall. Govynn (talk) 18:42, 17 June 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This will be very difficult to compose in a form which satisfies everybody and keeps to the aim of an encyclopedic article. Many kinds of people concerned with aspects of Cornwall; those interested in dialects of the English language; but primarily the mass of others who will wish to read the article. Good luck.--Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 19:01, 21 June 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

"yo" at the end of a sentence for emphasis[edit]

. Can anyone provide an explanation for how this comes from Cornish language influence, it is not clear. Muggetypie (talk) 14:32, 20 June 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Is anyone prepared to assert that emphatic sentence final "yo" is found in any tradiaonal Cornish dialect form at all? Muggetypie (talk) 18:27, 20 June 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Alterations to this article[edit]

Can you please give full details of any way in which my , and others recent edits to the article Anglo-Cornish introduced ideas that you assert to be incorrect, or unsupported by evidence? Further, if any ideas that were introduced, which, if not incorrect or difficult to verify, otherwise were not helpful for this online encyclopedia? I politely request that all replies are in plain English, in sentences as grammatically unambiguous as the English language allows, rather than in Wikipedia jargon, or in links to lengthy pages with their own sublinks within the often contradictory policies and guidelines of Wikipedia itself. Muggetypie (talk) 19:22, 20 June 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Local variation[edit]

"Towns and localities" were mentioned before and there is a problem saying "believed" since the meaning depends on the people who hold the belief, etc., and it becomes very subjective. The first citation provides evidence that the different parishes of west Penwith can be distinguished by a Penzance woman. That would be true of any rural society; the process of change in the 20th century has many causes and summary is not easy. There is also what linguists call codeswitching where each individual uses more than one variety depending on the circumstances.--Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 12:20, 23 June 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Orphaned references in Anglo-Cornish[edit]

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Anglo-Cornish's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "dnb":

  • From William Robert Hicks: Boase, G. C. (1891). "Hicks, William Robert (1808–1868), asylum superintendent and humorist". Dictionary of National Biography Vol. XXVI. Smith, Elder & Co. Retrieved 2007-12-23.
  • From Walter Hawken Tregellas: Courtney, William Prideaux (1885–1900). "Tregellas, Walter Hawken" . Dictionary of National Biography. London: Smith, Elder & Co.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT 12:01, 25 June 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Title of the article[edit]

As an adjective the present title is inadequate: it ought to be moved to "Cornish dialects of English" or "Cornish dialect" or "Anglo-Cornish dialect" depending on what others find acceptable.--Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 06:57, 6 July 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Looking at this list, I would favour a move to Cornish English, for consistency. I'm not sure that "Cornish" or "English" are necessarily adjectives, by the way, as the words are clearly used here as nouns, but the current title doesn't appear to be consistent with others listed. Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:09, 6 July 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]
This is the same discussion that appeared early on in the page's history. "Anglo-Cornish" is used by e.g. Alan M. Kent and others. It's a substantive, just happens to have the same form as the adjective. cf English - can be a substantive meaning the Germanic language spoken in England, or it can be an adjective as in "English cuisine". DuncanHill (talk) 13:08, 6 July 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The first discussion was never finished, just deferred until User:Govynn had finished compiling the article. "Anglo-Cornish" as a single word can easily be misunderstood (that it is an adjective usued substantively is only apparent when used in a sentence): it does not follow the pattern of Anglo-Norman which is the Norman dialect spoken in England in the Middle Ages. Cornish English follows the same pattern as Australian English, or American English, so is less likely to be misunderstood.--Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 19:42, 6 July 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

External links modified[edit]

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Wrong title[edit]

I resisted the urge to rename this article immediately due to the editors that have contributed before and to the likely complaints that would ensue. I see the question was raised many years ago with what appeared to have been general consensus for a change, but nothing so far has happened. 1/ Anglo-Cornish means Cornish with an English influence, not the other way round. 2/ The heavily referenced article is predominantly about Cornish so the whole article is weaseled and off topic. 3/ The Cornish language lobby group has had a not insignificant input. 4/ Of the various names, Cornish English comes first in RSs, followed by Cornish dialect. The current title lags well down the list. Weighting applies here.

To be consistent with other regional varieties I suggest using Cornish dialect as the title with the other names being re-directed. Cornish English would be possibility as well. Shall we go ahead and change it? Once that is done the article can be worked on the remove a lot of the unnecessary content. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 13:08, 30 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The Simple English WP already has "Cornish dialect" as the title for this topic and this is probably the best option; the List of Anglo-Cornish words should also be made consistent if the proposed move was made. Both this article and the Simple English one were begun by a Cornish editor though it was much improved by the contributions of others in the early stages.--Johnsoniensis (talk) 15:08, 30 June 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Okay, I have now moved the article. There will be some tidying up to do. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 21:03, 1 July 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]