Talk:Confucianism

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Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

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Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 18:19, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

This article should clearly state that Confucianism status as a religion is disputed

Rather than avoiding the topic, we should clearly say there's no consensus on whether Confucianism is a religion or not. I've done so through a note with two reliable sources; I presume few more refs wouldn't go amiss there, and people may want to rewrite the quotes into something better (but I'd recommend keeping them in the body through |quote= parameter). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:24, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Probably it would be better to explain that three things are going on: (1) There was a view of 天 tiān as a god that existed long before Confucius, that was associated with the political philosophy espoused by the early Zhou rulers (particularly the Duke of Zhou), and that continues to this day. (2) Confucius revered the Duke of Zhou and explicitly took it upon himself to support and explain the political philosophy that guided the early Zhou rulers, including such things as the doctrine of 天命 tiān mīng (the Mandate of Heaven). That religious view has continued down to the present and was (allegedly) active in the fall of the Diem regime and attempted (non-communist) successor regimes in Vietnam. (3) Independent of what Confucius, Mencius, and other people in that mainstream group thought, other people tried to make Confucius into a god. I don't know whether there are any statistics or any studies that otherwise show how influential this attempt was during the relatively brief period wherein it had some kind of institutional presence, whether anybody actually prayed to Confucius, etc. If being a "god" constitutes the foundation of a religion, was then Zhang Fei the center of a religion?

What people call "Confucianism" today is probably not limited to the views expressed by Confucius, and probably is not limited to respect/veneration for him as a "holy man." My understanding of Confucianism is that it is a somewhat amorphous collection (probably varying from individual to individual and with no pope to define a "true core" of belief) of beliefs regarding 天，ethical values that proceed from the early Zhou founders, amplifications of these values and rational discussions about why they are so made by Confucius and particularly by Mencius, and probably come accretion of totalitarian ideas or at least authoritarian views taken over by osmosis from Xun Zi and the Legalists. So it's all a bit messy. It's also extremely powerful because it suffuses the culture, provides things that "everybody knows is true" because everybody has been enculturated to the same general take on how best to be a human being, as hard to challenge as it is to punch the wind, etc. P0M (talk) 17:47, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Confucian(儒家) is an academic faction. From the first century AD to the third century AD, the Chinese emperor transformed the The faction into a national religion called "Confucianism"(儒教). The religious leader was the emperor and respected Confucius as his mentor. The Chinese believe that their emperor is Son of Heaven, Therefore, a religious ritual "sacrifice to heaven(祭天)" was born, Also build temples for people who contribute to the country

Confucianism restricts various norms to include the inauguration of obtaining orthodox power for the next emperor. Men's adult ceremony, student entrance ceremony. If there is no ceremony, it will not be recognized, Have a legal meaning

confucian do not worship God because they are scholars.But Confucianism has, Their god called 「昊天上帝」including having places of worship and clergy.They adore the saints and heroes and ancestors of the past, the stars on the sky and the mountains and rivers on the ground. — Preceding unsigned comment added by --Dyer-wolf (talk) 09:49, 6 June 2020 (UTC)Dyer-wolf (talk • contribs) 09:42, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Confucianism does not worship god. In fact, the ritual praying on the ancestor and natural law are reminders of humbleness, to prevent one become arrogant when they gain too much wealth or power. So it is true that Confucianism is not religion. The modern study of Confucianism philosophy renders most writing of this wiki article obsolete. Tan S.L. (talk) 16:55, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

Confucianism isn't sexist, it just considers women inferior to men?

The section under criticism regarding Confucian attitudes towards women starts off pretty good but the paragraph which attempts to respond to accusations of sexism by mentioning historic Confucian texts which emphasized women as being subservient to men is just baffling. How is that supposed to do anything but support the accusations of sexism? Specifically the third paragraph in that subsection, the one that also has multiple cites to the same source. 108.174.175.69 (talk) 03:19, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

The problem is that Confucian texts say very little about women, and what is assumed to be Confucian attitude towards women (e.g. whether they are inferior or not) may just be an older tradition or Neo-Confucian opinions that may not be necessarily Confucian. Given that there are few definitive statements about women in Confucian texts, Confucian position on women is open to interpretations. For example, some may choose to emphasize the meritocratic principle of Confucianism to suggest that both men and women are capable of fine achievement (Ban Zhao for example argued that both sons and daughters need to be educated). By choosing your arguments, you can suggest that feminism and Confucianism are not mutually exclusive. However, you do need to explain away some of the very few statements in Confucian texts about women (for example, the statement about women and xiaoren, and Confucius ignoring the achievements of women that would suggest that he did not hold women in high esteem) with what may be considered acceptable arguments. Hzh (talk) 14:34, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Research Process and Methodology - RPM SP 2022 - MASY1-GC 1260 200 Thu

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 27 February 2022 and 5 May 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Yh3907.

Gods

The paragraph on worship of gods (shen) is odd and needs to be rewritten. I'm not sure why worship of ancestors is tagged on the end of the paragraph, as if it is constructing a different narrative out of ancestral worship and sacrifices into the worship of gods. It simply ignores the famous Confucian saying to his disciple "respect ghosts and gods, but keep them at a distance" (敬鬼神而远之) [1] concentrating on the human world - [2] or a comment by someone in the Analects: "Master does not comment on bizzarre, the violent, the chaotic, and the spirits (子不语怪力乱神) [3], Confucian attitude to gods/spirits is more nuanced than what is made out in the paragraph. Hzh (talk) 13:55, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 August 2022

Confucianism did NOT arise in response to Taoism. In fact, it was the opposite. Please change "Confucianism developed in response to Buddhism and Taoism and was reformulated as Neo-Confucianism." to "Confucianism developed in response to Buddhism and was reformulated as Neo-Confucianism."

National Geographic states otherwise: https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/chinese-religions-and-philosophies "Taoism (also called Daoism) is a Chinese religion that developed a bit after Confucianism, around two thousand years ago. In contrast to Confucianism, Taoism is mainly concerned with the spiritual elements of life, including the nature of the universe."

Even the Wikipedia article on Taoism directly contradicts this sentiment: https://wiki.alquds.edu/?query=Taoism "Many scholars believe Taoism arose as a countermovement to Confucianism." 75.166.174.69 (talk) 22:45, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

 Done. Loafiewa (talk) 22:50, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Seems rather too hasty. The sentence refers to the Tang dynasty, which started in the 7th century (and the response to Daoism and Buddhism happened in 8th and 9th century before it became the dominant ideology during the Song dynasty). Whether Daoism developed after Confucianism is irrelevant, because that sentence refers to event after Daoism came into existence. That sentence is about the development of Neo-Confucianism, removing it mangled that sentence. Buddhism also came into China after Confucianism was already established, so it doesn't make sense to remove Daoism and not Buddhism. Hzh (talk) 10:45, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 November 2022

There is a misspelling of obedience as "obdedience" in the fourth line under the heading, "Contradiction with modernist values." Slightexag15 (talk) 23:50, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

 Done Loafiewa (talk) 23:56, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

Article issues and classification

This article has a multitude of issues.

• 1)- Inline tags
  • a)-"Citation needed" (Feb 2021 and Aug 2022) The B-class criteria #1 states; The article is suitably referenced, with inline citations. It has reliable sources, and any important or controversial material which is likely to be challenged is cited. As maintenance I have reassessed the article.
  • b)- weasel words. Criteria #4 states; The article is reasonably well-written..
• 2)- Lead: The rational behind why it was felt the bulk of the article needed to be presented in eight paragraphs in lead section might be interesting.
• 3)- Citing sources: There are several areas that are lacking inline citations that include sentences, paragraphs, and subsections. A perplexing problem is material added after an inline citation. This can be seen as original research.
• 4)- See also: A few links in this section can be beneficial but too many are a distraction.
• 5)- "Translations of texts attributed to Confucius". There actually are no such named appendices. Possibly add some more information and use it as a subsection under "Further Reading".
• 6)- Nine entries in the "External links" section. Three seems to be an acceptable number and of course, everyone has their favorite to add for four. The problem is that none is needed for article promotion.
• ELpoints #3) states: Links in the "External links" section should be kept to a minimum. A lack of external links or a small number of external links is not a reason to add external links.
• LINKFARM states: There is nothing wrong with adding one or more useful content-relevant links to the external links section of an article; however, excessive lists can dwarf articles and detract from the purpose of Wikipedia. On articles about topics with many fansites, for example, including a link to one major fansite may be appropriate.
• WP:ELMIN: Minimize the number of links. -- Otr500 (talk) 02:32, 14 February 2023 (UTC)