Talk:Confederation Liberty and Independence

Updating

The article is not up-to-date. In 2023 Parliamentary election in Poland the party gained 18 seats. Robert Winnicki and Janusz Korwin-Mikke are not deputees anymore. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 185.81.58.227 (talk) 12:11, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Far-right to right-wing

I think that calling Robert Winnicki or Grzegorz Braun far-right is not right. Winnicki is Polish classical nationalist like Roman Dmowski who was right-wing. There's nothing extreme in Winnicki's political statement I guess. Tashi _{Talk to me} 18:26, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

They are both firmly far-right by any academic criteria applied Abcmaxx (talk) 23:14, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

Picture of This party isn't right

Because this picture is from europeans election with name Korwin Braun Liroy Narodowcy. Actual name is Wolność i Niepodległość. Historyk55635 (talk) 21:55, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

Youth wing and Paramilitary wing

The All-Polish Youth, although not officially the youth-wing of Confederation, it is a youth organization which officially joined Confederation on 6 December 2018 alongside the National Movement party, similarly to the Youth for Freedom, which is the youth wing of the KORWiN party, therefore should we add them to the article? Also, during the 2020–21 women's strike protests in Poland, Robert Bąkiewicz the founder of the March for Independence, formed the National Guard (Polish: Straż Narodowa) in order to protect churches and other objects from vandalization. Some branches of Confederation, such as the one in Tarnobrzeg, formed their own National Guard groups, thus should we add the National Guard as a de-facto paramilitary wing of Confederation (even if they are not de-jure affiliated, I believe)? HorCrux48 (talk) 11:09, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

What do reliable sources have to say? Robby.is.on (talk) 13:27, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

Unfortunately there are no sources in the English language, however, the All-Polish Youth and the Youth for Freedom are the youth wings of both National Movement and KORWiN respectively, which effectively form the Confederation coalition. Moreover, the formation of the National Guard in Tarnobrzeg by local Confederation activists as mentioned earlier was reported by Onet.pl, one of the major news outlets in Poland (https://wiadomosci.onet.pl/rzeszow/tarnobrzeg-przeor-dominikanow-wyprosil-straz-narodowa/k6pe1cp). HorCrux48 (talk) 14:17, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

Infobox bloating

Greetings. A similar issue unfolded on the Communist Party of Kampuchea article where the infobox was bloated with unsourced ideologies, which is also present here. Under the "internal factions" section, a plethora of unsourced ideologies are there, thus I suggest removing all of them except paleoconservatism and paleolibertarianism as those are the only two with citations. - Rediculizer42 (talk) 14:17, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

Revert of Helper201's changes

@Abcmaxx: I think there is a misunderstanding over what @Helper201: meant by "parties’ respective pages". When I first read the edit summary I also initially assumed it referred to the parties' websites but I'm pretty sure it's about their respective articles on Wikipedia. And I think it makes sense to ensure consistency between the descriptions here and those on the respective articles. Kind regards, Robby.is.on (talk) 19:22, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

@Robby.is.on: This can go both ways though? Are the articles sourced? Because otherwise we could argue that the articles are not in line with this one Abcmaxx (talk) 20:44, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

Rediculizer42 and Abcmaxx, yes, I meant what is cited on their Wikipedia articles, not their party websites. Helper201 (talk) 04:33, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

Infobox

Janusz Korwin-Mikke and Grzegorz Braun are regarded in Poland as one of the most pro-Russian politicians, and the Supervisory Board cooperates with extremely nationalist circles such as the National-Radical Camp. 188.33.224.187 (talk) 11:26, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing this up. I had to revert your changes to the article for now because you didn't supply sources for the additions. Can you provide WP:Reliable sources that support what you are saying? It's not enough for us editors to consider something true we also need to be able to back it up. See WP:Verifiability. Kind regards, Robby.is.on (talk) 11:29, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

https://www.polsatnews.pl/wiadomosc/2022-05-25/sejm-nagana-dla-korwina-mikke-polityk-ukarany-za-wypowiedzi-o-masakrze-w-buczy/

https://niezalezna.pl/459608-korwin-mikke-stanal-w-obronie-brauna-ktory-przysluzyl-sie-rosyjskiej-propagandzie-absurdalny-argument

https://oko.press/narodowcy-od-bakiewicza-z-3-milionami-dotacji-od-rzadowego-funduszu/ 188.33.224.187 (talk) 11:32, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

in Polish 188.33.224.187 (talk) 11:33, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Left-wing smear term "far-right" should not been used

wikipedia rarely uses the other term "far-left", therefore you have a left-wing bias and framing in place. Better being right than wrong. 80.131.54.92 (talk) 23:15, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia describes topics as independent reliable sources do. If you have independent reliable sources that describe a topic as "left wing", please offer them on the appropriate article talk page. With regards to this article, if you are arguing that sources do not describe this party as right wing, please explain how the sources are in error. If the sources are accurate and use this term, but you disagree with them doing so, you will need to take that up with them, not us. 331dot (talk) 23:18, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

As an example, the New Democratic Party in Canada is describe as being on the "left". 331dot (talk) 23:19, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

Far-right?

Better right than wrong. Why this left-wing smear tactic, wikipedia? You can do better than this. Try conservative, right-wing conservative, free-market liberal, libertarian or patriotic. 80.131.58.157 (talk) 19:35, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Far-right or right wing

I agree with the people before. This is not far-right party. AIexperts (talk) 02:00, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

WP:reliable sources disagree. They consider the alliance far-right. See the lengthy footnote in the "Ideology and position" section. Kind regards, Robby.is.on (talk) 07:38, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

The description in biased. It is nof far-right party.

Please correct the term. Tomekyy (talk) 16:45, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

As mentioned in the section just above this one, the description is supported by plenty of reliable sources. See the footnote in the "Ideology and position" section of the article. Robby.is.on (talk) 21:46, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

I think that the article is ready to be protected again, not just because of constant vandalism in recent period, but also because of the upcoming election in Poland. Vacant0 (talk) 19:37, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

I see your bias. It is not a far-right party. Please provide sources if you want to describe the party as an extremist. The party is almost identical in political programme to Republican Party in USA (which is not far-right). Moreover the party is related to ECR (conservatives) not ID. Tomekyy (talk) 08:44, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

@Tomekyy: I see your bias. Please assume good faith. Please provide sources […] As I wrote in a comment above yours in this section the reliable sources are in the "Ideology and position" section of the article". Kind regards, Robby.is.on (talk) 09:37, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Ok please see polish version of the page.

Proof 1. "Konfederacja – koalicja o charakterze prawicowym i eurosceptycznym, " It is described as a right-wing. Why in english version it is far right. You should assume that in original language people know better, because there is more material.

Proof 2. A lot of people statet and protested that it is false statement (including me). I really do not understand how you can call the party far right.

Proof 3. The party do not have far right properties - they arre pro freedom:

- low taxation and small government interrvention (facist want huge controlling state)

- full freedom of speech (I assume that far right facist want fight the freedom of speech)

- they opose abortion at wish (which some may say it is far-right I do not agree)

- small control of government over people

How this is far right, they are right-wing libertarian. Not far right. Thet opose facist. They opose far-right AfD.

There are not characteristics of far-right party.

What other proof do you want sir?

https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konfederacja_Wolno%C5%9B%C4%87_i_Niepodleg%C5%82o%C5%9B%C4%87 Tomekyy (talk) 21:45, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Proof 4. On the polish political scene there are parties farther on right ONR and NOP. They are nazi and facist. So how could you call them if you call confederation a far-right party? Farrer-right or the farrest-right?

Proof 5. The coalition have right-wing which the english version of the page agrees. Which means that the party is at least nof fully fr-right. Moreover, the biggest party in the coalition is right-wing so how you can call the whole coalition far-right?

I hope that the explanation is sufficient to call the party right wing not far-right. Tomekyy (talk) 21:50, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

I hope that the explanation is sufficient I'm afraid not. Wikipedia content is not meant to be based on our personal opinions as editors but should reflect what WP:reliable sources write about the article subjects. So you would need to bring reliable sources that support a different labelling of the political alliance and explain how "far-right" does not reflect what reliable sources say about it.

Just one comment on your line of argument: fascism is far-right but far-right politics are not necessarily fascist; see far-right politics. Robby.is.on (talk) 22:27, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

I do not agree with your line of argumentation.

1. You did not answer how we should clasiffy the parties which are trully on far-right ONR and NOP? farther right.

2. You did not respond to the argument that in the polish media/wikipedia the party is presented as right-wing

3. Why should I defend my position that it is not far-right if anyone else on wikipedia (please see previous people state that it is right-wing). Is it always the case that the party is assument do be far-right unless proven otherwise?

4. I statet that the parry has centre freedom liberal characteristics.

5. Please see the another argument:

Please see the another argument scientific paper which states that Confederation is right wing

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Krzysztof-Zegota/publication/335816167_Polish-Russian_relations_as_reflected_in_the_programmes_of_right-wing_political_parties_in_Poland_a_quantitative_and_qualitative_analysis/links/5e8b2117a6fdcca789f84854/Polish-Russian-relations-as-reflected-in-the-programmes-of-right-wing-political-parties-in-Poland-a-quantitative-and-qualitative-analysis.pdf Tomekyy (talk) 13:12, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Can you answer please?\

More and more people are noticing the bias of wikipedia. Please see:

https://rumble.com/v33nemd-system-update-121.html

I am trying to correct the obvious misteake/bias and it is taking so long. Please answer. Tomekyy (talk) 00:10, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

Is it always the case that the party is assument do be far-right unless proven otherwise? Wikipedia should reflect reliable sources. We have a great amount of high-quality sources which support the "far-right" descriptor; they are located in the "Ideology and position" section of the article. Robby.is.on (talk) 14:02, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

Russophiles

The Party is pro-russia. 2A02:3030:811:650F:1:0:EB78:3254 (talk) 17:23, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

@2A02:3030:811:650F:1:0:EB78:3254 It is described as "pro-Russian" by its political opponents and some media outlets, but in fact the Confederation has never done anything that would give it the right to call the party that way. Bociek O-le (talk) 19:22, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

Ok, add it then as a "Accused" category in the ideology section of the Infobox. 2A02:3030:814:9F00:1:0:5F85:9837 (talk) 10:38, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

The party is in favour of lifting the sanctions on Russia. [1] The party leaders are currently promoting a political action "Stop Ukrainizacji Polski!" (Stop the Ukrainisation of Poland!) which opposes help to Ukraine and refugees from Ukraine. [2] The party has in its ranks outright pro-Russian candidates in favour of retaking teritory from Ukraine nad Belarus lost to them in 1939 who also support Russian invasion of Ukraine. [3] The party leaders were often seen with Russian spies and have made trips to occupied Crimea with them. [4] From my view it is enough to classify the party as at least Russophilic if not out right pro-Russian.

Sources

1. https://wpolityce.pl/polityka/618548-czy-mentzen-sprowadzalby-wegiel-z-rosji-skadkolwiek

2. https://stopukrainizacjipolski.pl/

3. https://oko.press/sputnik-wyladowal-kim-sa-kresowiacy-z-konfederacji

4. https://wyborcza.pl/7,75398,24353855,grzegorz-braun-na-zdjeciach-z-podejrzewanym-o-szpiegostwo-rosjaninem.html

https://wiadomosci.radiozet.pl/polska/Jacek-Wilk-z-Konfederacji-pojechal-na-Krym-z-podjerzanym-o-szpiegostwo Mieszko Aders (talk) 11:52, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Not economic liberal

The party voted for the charity tax and to tighten the sunday shopping ban. 2A02:3030:817:84EF:1:0:6BEE:57CA (talk) 21:08, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Disagree. The party is liberal. Want to lower taxation. You do not need to have all properties to be liberal. Moreover, many members agree to abolish the ban on sales. Tomekyy (talk) 00:14, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

Pro-russia

The party is pro-russian and anti-ukrainan. 2A02:3030:80E:DB4D:1:0:3E48:2FA5 (talk) 15:33, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

Do you have any reliable sources for this claim? Robby.is.on (talk) 08:47, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

One of their coalition parties Konfederacja Korony Polskiej, have actively organised anti-Ukrainian movement, that claims that Ukrainians are an active threat to Polish national interests and ethnic coherence. [1] Most of their leaders, have in many ways supported Russia. For example their leader who founded the coalition and was the leader of the far right, quasi libertarian movement in Poland since the end of communism, actively supported Russian invasion. [2] Because of this, he nominally lost leadership, but the new leader also wants to repeal sanctions and embargoes put on Russia and renew trade with them. [3]

I'd like to also point out the fact, that most of their leaders have connections either in occupied Crimea, or directly with people expelled for Poland for being Russian spies. [4]

They're also regarded as anti-ukrainian, by many renowned Polish journals, such as OKO PRESS which has documented their entire history of russophilia. [5]

Sources

1. https://stopukrainizacjipolski.pl/stop-ukrainizacji-polskiej-racji-stanu

2. https://twitter.com/JkmMikke/status/1571987662118027265?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1571988352207056896%7Ctwgr%5Ec980b39d34a3b5b1ac52208a4c506649d592e0c6%7Ctwcon%5Es2_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwgospodarce.pl%2Finformacje%2F117207-korwin-mikke-znowu-po-stronie-rosji-chlopie-wnuki-baw

3. https://www.rp.pl/polityka/art37248851-mentzen-embargo-na-wegiel-wprowadzone-przez-morawieckiego-bylo-prorosyjskie

4. https://wyborcza.pl/7,75398,24353855,grzegorz-braun-na-zdjeciach-z-podejrzewanym-o-szpiegostwo-rosjaninem.html

https://wyborcza.pl/7,75399,19322484,janusz-korwin-mikke-z-wizyta-na-krymie-polecial-przez-moskwe.html

https://dorzeczy.pl/kraj/271279/abw-bada-sprawe-janusza-n-dzialacz-zapraszal-jacka-wilka-na-krym.html

5. https://oko.press/w-imie-putina-przygody-konfederacji-z-antyukrainska-propaganda Mieszko Aders (talk) 16:29, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Thank you! 2A02:3030:816:2703:1:0:8725:6E2C (talk) 14:15, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

PiS

Is this party strongly more morally conservative than PiS, or the same? --95.24.70.233 (talk) 04:52, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Monarchist?

While absent from their official platform, monarchism is the ralling cry for many leaders of the coalition. The former leader of the Coalition, and still a powerful figure within Konfederacja, has stated multiple times that they wish for a return to monarchy. [1] One of the main parties is the Confederation of the Polish Crown, which is openly monarchist. [2] One of the most prominent leaders of the coalition Krzysztof Bosak, has openly tweeted that "Constitutional monarchy is our (Polish) tradition". [3] And to cap that all, off the leader of the coalition, Sławomir Mentzen has openly claimed that he's a monarchist. [4] From my point of view, all of that is grounds for considering the party as monarchist.

Sources:

1. https://www.rp.pl/polityka/art9165121-korwin-mikke-krol-ma-wyrzuty-sumienia-a-wiekszosc-nie-ma-wstydu

2. https://wiki.alquds.edu/?query=Confederation_of_the_Polish_Crown

3. https://twitter.com/krzysztofbosak/status/885898964100427777

4. https://pch24.tv/mentzen-w-mocnej-rozmowie-ja-demokrata-jestem-monarchista/ Mieszko Aders (talk) 21:38, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Monarch?

Who do Polish monarchists propose as a monarch? Does the party have a position? --Error (talk) 19:29, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

The leaders of Konfederacja, have never proposed a specific person as a candidate, but former leader of Konfederacja has stated that "Kaczyński (leader of the ruling party Law and Justice, as of October 2023) should not become prime minister, he serves as a de facto monarch, it is a pity that it is not formally stated in constitution and it is a pity that he does not have a son" [1] So it generally seems like the leaders of Konfederacja want a monarchy in general, and really anyone on the Polish throne. But from other monarchist organisations, there are many possible candidates [2]. For example:

- Saxon Wettin Dynasty, who were the last ruling dynasty of the Duchy of Warsaw, so de facto last ruling dynasty of Poland [3]

- There is also, House of Czartoryski, who are directly descended from Jagiellon dynasty before the monarchy became elective from anyone (before the monarchs were only elected from House of Jagiellon). [4]

- There is also some sympathy for House Habsburg, especially from more liberal Monarchists, like Polish celebrity chef Robert Makłowicz [5]

All in all, Polish monarchists can only agree on one thing : That there needs to be a restoration of monarchy in general.

Sources:

1. https://www.rp.pl/polityka/art8812881-korwin-mikke-kaczynski-jest-jak-krol-szkoda-ze-nie-ma-syna

2. https://tvn24.pl/polska/kto-chce-byc-krolem-polski-ra124503-3579396

3. https://wiki.alquds.edu/?query=Duchy_of_Warsaw

4. https://wiki.alquds.edu/?query=Czartoryski

5. https://klubjagiellonski.pl/2022/12/15/robert-maklowicz-nie-ma-racji-czyli-dekonstrukcja-mitu-galicji/ Mieszko Aders (talk) 06:53, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

What is this

Ahead of the 2023 Polish parliamentary election, they are considered the kingmakers. Bosak, one of Confederation's leaders, said: "Confederation has no intention of prolonging PiS's power or facilitating Tusk's return to power. The majority of our voters do not want this." Korwin-Mikke, a former member of the European Parliament who is running for the party from the Warsaw region in 2023, has a history of sexist statements about women. He said: "I am against voting rights for women. This is biology. A woman at the age of 55, when estrogen stops working, reaches the age when she can finally vote." Ryszard Zajączkowski, a university professor and one of the coalition's candidates, said that Poles were subjected to what he described as genocide "at the hands of Jews working together with communists" after World War II, and said that communism is worse than fascism. He said: "Compared to which the Auschwitz camp could be called a holiday camp."

this is the most blatant propaganda i have seen who here is working for pis

because this is a clear attept of pis to either smear tusk for potentially working with these guys(there are news articles LOOK for them) or an attept to scare their voters to vote for pis instead so that poland can have more bloted welfare and corruption

instead of decribing the political position of the party or party leaders it has butch of statements to make the party look bad because some candidates of the party(who don’t even lead it) said some edgy shuff

please someone remove this pis propaganda 193.210.196.102 (talk) 17:38, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

I am not sure why this party is marked as far-right. It is not true. Can anyone explain? 5.173.19.53 (talk) 14:18, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

This party is far-right. While not officialy in their program every single leader has said that he would like to more or less abolish democracy, and replace it with a monarchy or a nationalist authoritharian regime. [1] Practicly every single one of the candidates has some statements that could be describe as "despicable", "misleading" or "anti-democratic". I don't think that this is a strech to say that they are far-right since this term is used to describe exactly such beliefs. Mieszko Aders (talk) 22:26, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

[1] - https://www.rp.pl/polityka/art9165121-korwin-mikke-krol-ma-wyrzuty-sumienia-a-wiekszosc-nie-ma-wstydu

https://pch24.tv/mentzen-w-mocnej-rozmowie-ja-demokrata-jestem-monarchista/

[2] - https://oko.press/w-imie-putina-przygody-konfederacji-z-antyukrainska-propaganda

https://www.polityka.pl/tygodnikpolityka/kraj/2220660,1,kandydaci-konfederacji-rodzina-przede-wszystkim-choc-nie-zapominajmy-o-kremlu.read Mieszko Aders (talk) 22:28, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Could Template:PD-ineligible-USonly be applied to the party logo?

Mtonna257 (talk) 11:52, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 April 2024

Hello I would like to edit this article, because of the local elections Olivier Pruchinski (talk) 13:12, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. '''[[User:CanonNi]]''' (talk|contribs) 14:41, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 9 April 2024

I want to update the amouut of members that Konfederacja has in the Sejmiki Wojewódzkie 2A02:6B6C:EC52:0:2571:1AB2:74E5:338C (talk) 11:07, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. '''[[User:CanonNi]]''' (talk|contribs) 11:53, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Confederation

Confederation is not far-right 93.198.213.92 (talk) 06:39, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia should reflect reliable sources, not the opinions of individual editors. What are you sources? Robby.is.on (talk) 09:32, 19 April 2024 (UTC)