Talk:Byzantine Empire

The gif should be slowed down, right?

The newly added gif is great but it's lightning fast- it's so fast that it basically doesn't even provide any information. Could we slow that down a tad? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8388:8700:DA00:A8A8:FC9A:74F5:FE6D (talk) 21:46, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Agreed. I notice it was added by @NeimWiki Elias (talk) 05:31, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

Fixed, slides last 70/100 of a second now, the thumbnail should update soon too, usually it takes wikipedia a bit to update them. NeimWiki (talk) 16:30, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

@NeimWiki: I really like the gif, but I still think it's way too fast. I would suggest slowing it down to be similar to this gif. Additionally, I suggest adding a key so people know what all the various colors stand for. --1990'sguy (talk) 01:49, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

I agree to be honest- the gif is still a tad fast. Any way it could be slowed down further? 2A02:8388:86C0:1700:BD61:FEFB:B022:CB3D (talk) 10:38, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

The B-word, suppression of education and knowledge

Why do the people in charge of Wikipedia allow it to be, in terms of the word, a haven of the Byzantine Far-Right, people absolutely obsessed with calling the Roman Empire a name it never was? I obviously have not surveyed millions of people, but it seems to the everyday person that the Roman Empire ended 'around the 400s', or if they have a bit more knowledge, 'Romulus Augustus was the last emperor'. All these people are being denied the chance to gain the education that the empire just carried on until 1453 in Constantinople and 1461 in Trebizond. (Also, if the B-Word did genuinely apply to the Roman Empire, that would include Trebizond). I dislike another denier term "the continuation of the Roman Empire" as if it had ended then someone else started it up again, no, it just "was", until 1453. People can research the B-Word, it came from westerners' anti-eastern racism, cultural appropriation and indentity theft and denial against the east. To a person who has studied the original use of the word, it is an offensive word, as well as suppressing knowledge and being just incorrect. I think the B-Word should be banned on Wikipedia in context of using it for the Roman Empire, with the exception of specific truthful usage referring to the city of Byzantium, pre-Constantinople. Because people used a bad word in the past, is not a valid reason for continuing to use a bad word - just use the correct word! Middle More Rider (talk) 11:50, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

I agree but the consensus of scholars is still not there yet. That's why. Entrenched interests with academic chairs of Byzantine studies, the Christian Orthodox Church, and Greek nationalists prefer to keep it as Byzantine. Elias (talk) 02:39, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

I get what you are saying, but truth should be above everything, anyone who can help put things right should be be doing so. On Hellenic people using the B-Word, that's another sad situation from the western prejudice, the 'great powers' saying they would only give military and political help to a new state of the Roman people, free of Turk occupation, if they identified themselves as a Hellenic nation, there is that famous situation in 1912 when the 'Hellenic' Navy freed Lemnos from Turk occupation and the islanders were still calling themselves Roman.

The historic truth should be the standard for a text book, physical or online.

My own situation, as a young teenager I loved reading about the ancient Roman Empire but in school we were taught that it ended in the 400s, then there was nothing, we never knew there was anything else to learn about, and this was before the internet. About 15 years later, 15 missed years of education, I discovered by chance at the back of a Roman coin book, that there was a later 'b.......e empire'.

I don't think that is a good enough situation for education.

Middle More Rider (talk) 11:17, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

It's complicated. It's a change in narrative for a lot of things. For example, there's a view that the West's origin of how it emerged from the dark ages is also rooted in demonising the Roman Empire that it also claims to be a successor to. The change is happening as we speak (ie, the move away from the European medieval era to global post-classical era) but it's still in progress. Since the 16th century and very relevant today, Russia's estranged relationship with the West is also politics driving this.

What I mean by this is Anthony Kaldellis's claim that Byzantine studies was created around the time of the Crimea war to replace the term "Empire of the Greeks" (which Charlamagne first coined in 800 CE) to prevent claims by Russia on unifying the Orthodox nations.

The issue is this debate cannot be won based on unpublished opinions like our own. To win this, you need to play Wikipedia's rules: find sources that support this change. Anthony Kaldellis latest work (which I refer above, and added in the nomenclature section of the article this year) I think has dropped an atomic bomb on Byzantine studies that I'm sure its still playing out and in the background of shrinking university budgets consolidating departments. It's only a matter of time, not if but when. Elias (talk) 18:07, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

I have never read any of his books, you refer to Romanland? I checked on Google, it looks like a good book, thanks for mentioning him.

Middle More Rider (talk) 19:51, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Check Kaldellis, Anthony (2022). "From "Empire of the Greeks" to "Byzantium"". In Ransohoff, Jake; Aschenbrenner, Nathanael (eds.). The Invention of Byzantium in Early Modern Europe. Harvard University Press. pp. 349–367. ISBN 9780884024842. Elias (talk) 20:03, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, I found that online and also downloaded it.

Middle More Rider (talk) 22:17, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

We must call it whatever the scholarly consensus calls it. Paul August ☎ 01:49, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

I watched an Orthodox webinar, with modern historians discussing this subject on YouTube this morning, it seems, as mentioned, historians are starting to side with the truth.

Does Wikipedia really want to be stuck in a stagnant lie while everybody else does what's right? And the origin of the ancient sources, mostly from when the Roman Empire existed, they all called the Roman Empire, the Roman Empire.

Middle More Rider (talk) 14:05, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

I don't think the byzantine term is offensive (or the B-word if you prefer), however we should all know that it's a modern term and was not in official use during the empire's existence. The article should remain titled like that to let readers have an easier time finding the right article. Couldn't say the same about the conventional long name in the infobox, though. Suasufzeb (talk) 17:40, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Byzantine empire and Greece

Byzantine empire was Greeκ empire.The Greek language and culture dominates and the most citizens have Greek origin. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.107.251.255 (talk) 18:00, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

The Byzantine Empire was the Roman Empire that became Greek speaking only and was Christian. Yes, modern Greeks derive their heritage from the Byzantine Empire but that does not make it a Greek empire. The term Greek was used to distance "Greeks" from their Roman heritage, by the father of western Europe Charlemagne and later by Adamantios Korais, which he did so as to get western European support and to break free from the control of the church that was dominated by the Turks. Elias (talk) 19:30, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Change of conventional long name in infobox

As the conventional long name in the infobox is usually used to state the formal and official name in the infobox, and the empire was called traditionally the "Roman Empire", we should change the conventional long name from "Byzantine Empire" to "Roman Empire". Suasufzeb (talk) 05:54, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

No, this would just cause confusion. The infobox should stick to the current title and name, as supported by the overwhelming bulk of the content and sources. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:18, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

I think supressing the truth causes the most confusion, and it's so unfair and wrong for people starting out learning about the Roman Empire to have false knowledge inflicted upon them. And the inaccuracies, like "the fall of the Western Roman Empire" there was no such thing, territory was lost in the western region, there was only one Roman Empire. And "Preceded by Roman Empire" either a deliberate lie or written without the knowledge that it is untrue, the Roman Empire lasted from Augustus to Constantine XI, and in Trebizond until 1461, the rulers at Constantinople were also sovereigns, by their own law, over Trebizond, which they allowed the Komnenos family (and a few others) to rule autominously.

And the calling of Constantinople as 'byzantium', the Roman capital, Constantinople was (I don't know the exact precise amount) maybe 15 times bigger than the old city of Byzantium, so most of the land mass of Constantinople had never been Byzantium ever.

Middle More Rider (talk) 23:07, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

It wouldn't really cause confusion as it has been explained in the lead, Also, even if the term was in usage during the times of the empire (it wasn't), what matters about the conventional long name is that it marks official or formal usage for the state, not what it's referred to unofficially. Suasufzeb (talk) 17:31, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

1204 vs Restored Empire

The page describes the Empire as a "continuation of the Roman Empire", which only works until 1204. So why is the Empire of Nicea with captured Constaninople treated as the legit succesor of rome despite 2 generations between 1204 and 1261 removing any kind of continuity it had with the original Empire? 2003:C0:F73D:9400:F43C:336B:C006:F9D8 (talk) 10:59, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

It was the same Roman Empire from Augustus to Constantine XI, over time they gained territory, lost some, regained some etc. I know the Roman Empire was never called 'byzantine empire', can't imagine it was called 'nicaean empire' ever at the time, just still the Roman Empire, at the time they may have eventually thought they'd never get Constantinople back, so there would be even more of an Anatolian Greekness to the Roman Empire.

Middle More Rider (talk) 02:16, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

Because the noble families and people of Nicaea, Epirus and Trebizond were the exact same as for the pre-1204 empire. The Nicene emperors also had the continued approval and blessing of the ecumenical patriarchs. Rheskouporis (talk) 20:53, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

WP:URFA/2020

In addition to the previous notice from 21 November 2020, it seems that many maps aren't sourced:

• File:ByzantineEmpire867AD4-en.svg
• File:Map Byzantine Empire 1025-en.svg
• File:Byzantium-Angeloi.JPG
• File:LatinEmpire2.png
• File:1263 Mediterranean Sea.svg
• File:Greek Asia Minor dialects.png
• File:Justinian555AD.png
• File:4KBYZ.gif
• File:Byzantine Empire animated.gif (based on unsourced maps)
• File:Roman Republic.gif
• File:Tetrarchy map3.jpg (also, issue with colors: "The districts of Maximian and Galerius are impossible to tell apart in the legend; it is also impossible to relate the legend entries for the districts of Maximian, Galerius, and Diocletian to their respective territories in the map.")

A455bcd9 (talk) 15:46, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

I am so done

Other major Wikipedias (like Spanish and Russian) set the official name as the Byzantine Empire as the (Eastern) Roman Empire, even the translations into Latin and Ancient Greek translate to Roman Empire. The Byzantines themselves called themselves Romans, and the term Byzantine wasn't coined until after the empire collapsed. Setting the official name to "Byzantine Empire" is incorrect as they never even unofficially referred to themselves as Byzantines. Rant over. StrawWord298944 (talk) 06:46, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia works on what the consensus of modern English language sources calls something. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:46, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

@Gog the Mild: what policy says that? Please link us to it and enlighten us. Elizium23 (talk) 17:52, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

WP:CRITERIA: Article titles are based on how reliable English-language sources refer to the article's subject. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:55, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

No, that's wrong, it doesn't support what you wrote. You wrote "Wikipedia works on what the consensus of modern English language sources calls something." Please link to that policy which supports everything you wrote. Elizium23 (talk) 17:57, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Nonsense. Gog appropriately summarised the policy. This absurd ill-informed argument about the name has been going on here for the last two decades. Don't feed it. DeCausa (talk) 21:36, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Indeed. Paul August ☎ 01:55, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Why are there people on Wikipedia obsessed with perpetuating a lie?

It's not true consensus if incorrect Wikipedia articles are spreading this lie, then people who want to learn go to the obvious internet site of Wikipedia and are taught the lie, then tell other people about the lie, it does become a consensus, but Wikipedia's self perpetuated fake consensus. But out in the real world, people are spreading the truth, that the Roman Empire is the Roman Empire. Also some historians have had enough of the b-word, and are backing truth instead.

Middle More Rider (talk) 21:37, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

I do so enjoy the way you make slow-moving Historiographical changes sound like an underground resistance movement on par with the one that resisted the Nazis. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 04:09, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

It's just another web-based conspiracy theory - although quite an esoteric one. The long term historical developments resulting in the complex morphing of the Roman Empire into what's called for legitimate scholarly convenience the Byzantine Empire (although well studied and written about) is both a "surprise" and doesn't appeal to the simplicities of the internet. The only explanation (rather than a lack of previous knowledge and current understanding) is that the "truth" must have been hidden from them and it has to be "exposed". DeCausa (talk) 07:50, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

It's a 100% historical fact, that the Roman Empire existed from Augustus to Constantine XI in Constantinople and David in Trebizond, they called their country the Roman Empire and also Romania (before Walachia took the name Romania), the state existed continuously and rule passed from emperor to emperor. The royal family at Constantinople always considered Trebizond as their territory, so the Megas Komnenos at Trebizond were Romans ruling Romans and were descended from Alexios I at Constantinople, so already royal family.

Beyond the fall of Trebizond, Roman citizens under Turk occupation were still calling themselves Roman. Famously up until 1912 on Chios, as the hellenic state navy found out when they freed the island from Turk occupation, the people were still calling themselves Roman.

The imposter 'roman empire' that would be the Papal-Germanic empire of Charlemaine etc., which turned into Germans in Germany (before unified modern Germany) calling themselves 'roman emperor'.

If people want to not call something the Roman Empire it should be the imposter 'roman empire', not the real Roman Empire.

Middle More Rider (talk) 15:17, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

When you start throwing around phrases like "100% historical fact" and "Papal-Germanic empire" I am less inclined to take you seriously than I am to the average 4chan conspiracy theory. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 16:46, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

You can keep denying or research the facts. Even the wikipedia article does not deny what the western empire was, started with the pope crowning Charlemain, then eventually "In a decree following the Diet of Cologne in 1512, the name was changed to the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation" and various other stuff about it having become German.

Even wikipedia the haven of lies (as far as the Roman Empire) is not siding with lies on that.

Middle More Rider (talk) 21:29, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

I have researched the facts. Your argument is ridiculous and that's why it's not being taken seriously. Byzantine Empire is a historiographical invention, sure. That doesn't make it "untrue". Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 21:33, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

Yes, it's a true name that existed as a lie, but it is a lie. I won't join myself with the lie that was invented centuries ago and should have been forgotten centuries ago, I will stick with the truth. The lie doesn't effect me, but teaching it to other people, beginers to Roman Empire history, as fact is wrong. I thought wikipedia was supposed to be a place of facts.

Middle More Rider (talk) 22:50, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

@Middle More Rider: Continually asserting that it is a lie will do nothing. If you can prove that a majority of high-quality, non-fringe, reliable scholars view the Byzantine Empire as a "lie", rather than a useful historiographical separation, I will be the first to fold the contents of this article into the Roman Empire article. You can't. So we won't. Talk page rants will not affect this. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 22:55, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

People interested in this situation might like to see this youtube video and read the comments https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rN9sg2XKuuo

Those of us who prefer the truth are not alone.

Middle More Rider (talk) 23:55, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

Augustus said he restored the Roman Republic of which he was merely first citizen - the Principate being an imposter Roman Republic. That means the evil Papal-Germanic empire should really be called the imposter imposter Roman Republic. No? DeCausa (talk) 17:34, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

Differentiation between "Ancient Rome" and Byzantine

@Eliasbizannes:, @Johnbod:, @Cplakidas:, @Future Perfect at Sunrise:, there's been some reverting over the last week on this. As far as I can see this is the long-standing pre-December 2022 version, which seems fine to me. DeCausa (talk) 22:49, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

The original references for this statement are showing here but I gave not validated them: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Byzantine_Empire&oldid=993966126#cite_note-FOOTNOTEMillar20062,_15James20105Freeman1999431,_435%E2%80%9337,_459%E2%80%9362BaynesMoss1948xxOstrogorsky196927Kaldellis20072%E2%80%933KazhdanConstable198212Norwich1998383-4

I suggest two changes:

• "oriented towards Greek rather than Latin culture" --> change this with reference to language only drop the word culture
• "characterised by Eastern Orthodox Christianity" replace it with a link to this page:Christianity as the Roman state religion and reference only to general Christianity that Theodosius I make official not the denominations created after

Elias (talk) 23:06, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

I don't think either is an improvement. Eastern Orthodoxy is very distinctive of the B. Empire; it should be highlighted. (Christianity as the Roman state religion isn't distinctive - it also covers the western empire in the later period.) The distinctinction of Greek/Latin is clearly broader than language. DeCausa (talk) 23:17, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand your point. Up until 478, yes the western Empire was the Roman/Byzantine Empire so there is nothing wrong with that which is why Christianity as the Roman state religion is appropriate still.

To say Eastern Orthodoxy is what distinguishes the Byzantine Empire it implies:

• a denomination in it's last 400 years defines its 1123 years which is not representative
• it gives the perception that the Roman Catholic Church was the original Roman Empire Christianity which is not true

To say Greek/Latin culture versus language is what distinguishes

• it implies the Byzantine empire was not the Roman Empire which is not true
• it suggests Byzantine culture is more similar to Greek culture than Roman culture which is not true.

This is all in the article but let me give you my 10,000 foot view. Up until the 8th century, it was the Roman Empire and Nicene Christianity. After that it was called Empire of the Greeks as Latin was no longer used and so that Charlemagne could distinguish his empire. The schism of 1054 made official the differences that has brewed over the centuries and when Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy officially began as separate denominations. Empire of the Greeks was replaced with the term Byzantine due to world power politics with Russia in the 19th century, the Crimean War and Greece's Megali Idea (Kaldellis). So these words matter. My suggestion keeps it general (language and general church that all denominations originate from) which is line with the sources. Elias (talk) 23:48, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

I think there's some underlying but irrelevant baggage to your edit. You have a lot of concerns about what is "implied" that you're trying to refute by your edit, but which isn't implied at all. There's no implication that Roman catholicism "came first". RCism isn't even mentioned. Rome and Orthodoxy were divergent long before the final schism so the "unrepresentativeness" is irrelevant. The later Western empire which had "Christianity as the Roman state religion" most definitely is not considerd "Byzantine" by WP:RS. The worst one is "it implies the Byzantine empire was not the Roman Empire which is not true". Please. Let's not shoehorn clumsy wording in just to WP:RGW. Let's not drag this into "it's really the Roman empire" malarkey. The existing wording is accurate, to the point, and WP:NPOV. DeCausa (talk) 00:26, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

No, it isn't. I believe it would be more fruitful if you referenced the sources behind the original statement you reverted to rather than Wikipedia policies. Also, mentioning Eastern Orthodoxy rather than Nicene Christianity is the WP:NPOV issue. Saying Byzantine is Byzantine because it adopted "Greek" culture (as opposed to influencing it) is the WP:RS issue. Elias (talk) 01:01, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

I've reviewed the page reference of the sources that were linked to a previous revision to the statement we are talking about.

To recap, the statement written was the following: Although the Roman state continued and its traditions were maintained, modern historians distinguish Byzantium from ancient Rome insofar as it was centred on Constantinople, oriented towards Greek rather than Latin culture and characterised by Eastern Orthodox Christianity.

The references to the above statement with my notes below.

Millar, Fergus (2006). A Greek Roman Empire: Power and Belief under Theodosius II (408–450). Berkeley and Los Angeles, CA: University of California Press. ISBN 978-0-520-24703-1.

• P2: there were twin empires and the east was Greek — in culture and language.
• P15: it was the fulfilment of 1000 years of Greek culture, representing the heritage of Greek culture and extending it. It was not just Greek-speaking, but the Greek-speaking world.

James, Liz (2010). A Companion to Byzantium. Chichester: John Wiley. ISBN 978-1-4051-2654-0.

• P5 “...Changing yet continuous institutions, beliefs, value-systems, culture” “But from the start, there were two major differences between the Roman and Byzantine empires: Byzantium was, for much of its life, a Greek-speaking empire, orientated towards Greek, not Latin culture; and it was a Christian empire”

Freeman, Charles (1999). The Greek Achievement – The Foundation of the Western World. New York: Penguin. ISBN 978-0-670-88515-2.

• pp. 431: “Scholars disagree as to when they should call this new entity the Byzantine empire. Some prefer a date as early as 330, the year of the city's dedication, others prefer to wait until the Arab invasions of the seventh century, others again take the council of Chalcedon, 451, as the starting date”
• 435–37: Greek culture considered itself superior, male dominated, highly competitive, dependent on slaves, and a belief in heroic values. The competition creating developing culture of debate and sophisticated language which contrasted significantly with Republican Rome's Latin,
• 438: [This is added by me because it flowed from the previous page] Greek language introduced grammar, rhetoric, philisophy and Greek rules of thought into Latin which is a step of primary importance to the history of the west
• 459–62: timeline of events of Greece under the Roman Empire from 29AD until the aftermath of the Arab wars run the 640s

Baynes, Norman Hepburn; Moss, Henry St. Lawrence Beaufort, eds. (1948). Byzantium: An Introduction to East Roman Civilization. Oxford, England: Clarendon Press.

• P xx "Roman tradition in law and government, the Hellenistic tradition in language, literature, and philosophy, and a Christian tradition which had already beeb, refashioned on a Greek model"

Ostrogorsky, George (1969). History of the Byzantine State. New Brunswick: Rutgers University Press. ISBN 978-0-8135-1198-6.

• P 27 The integration of Hellenistic culture and Christian religion within the Roman imperial framework is what gives rise to the Byzantine Empire. The first physical expression necessitated by the crisis of the third century was the recognition of Christianity as Roman religion and the new capital on the Bosporous. This marks the the beginning of the Byzantine period

Kaldellis, Anthony (2007). Hellenism in Byzantium: The Transformations of Greek Identity and the Reception of the Classical Tradition. Cambridge, England: Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-0-521-87688-9.

• pp. 2–3; The basic definition of the West — shaped by Greek literature and philosophy, Roman law and systems of governance, and Christianity — is what Byzantium was and Western civilisation. It was a composite culture of Roman energy and power, Greek knowledge of their study of nature, and the Hebrew’s uncovering of God.

Kazhdan, Alexander Petrovich; Constable, Giles (1982). People and Power in Byzantium: An Introduction to Modern Byzantine Studies. Washington, DC: Dumbarton Oaks. ISBN 978-0-88402-103-2.

• P12: Byzantium was the only medieval state that retained Greek science and literature, Roman law and administration, and Christian faith.

Elias (talk) 20:10, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Based on my review of the sources and in line with my original request, I suggest the following statement:

Although the Roman state continued and its traditions were maintained, modern historians distinguish Byzantium from ancient Rome insofar as it was centred on Constantinople, saw the displacement of Latin with an expansion of Greek language and culture, and in its adoption of Christianity over paganism. Elias (talk) 20:26, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

That's grammatically inconsistent ("... as it was …, saw …, and in its …"). Otherwise I don't see much difference to what we had, other than that it's slightly more wordy and cumbersome. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:51, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Sure. I was trying to account for nuance but happy to go back to just got back to my original suggestions:

Although the Roman state continued and its traditions were maintained, modern historians distinguish Byzantium from ancient Rome insofar as it was centred on Constantinople, oriented towards Greek rather than Latin, and characterised by Christianity .

The two (very) big differences with this version:

• It's "Christianity:, as per the sources. And link is to when it was adopted in the Roman Empire. There are arguments we can link to Nicene Christianity or Chalcedonian Christianity
• Groups language and culture as one and this sweeps under the carpet the complexity of those ideas

Elias (talk) 21:23, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

This strikes me as the right way to go and flows naturally from the quotations above (although I like "Greek language and culture rather than Latin"). I think it is important to remember that the sentence is a generalisation, contrasting "ancient Rome" as a whole from the "Byzantine empire" as a whole. Furius (talk) 00:35, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

Good suggestion and well put.

Rewritten: "Although the Roman state continued and its traditions were maintained, modern historians distinguish Byzantium from ancient Rome insofar as it was centred on Constantinople, oriented towards Greek language and culture rather than Latin, and characterised by Christianity " Elias (talk) 04:21, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

It's probably good to give people a day or two to comment, but as far as I'm concerned this is clear, accurate, and well-supported by the sources. Furius (talk) 22:24, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

With one exception, the existing wording does the same thing but more succinctly. The difference is a reference to Christianity rather than Orthodoxy. "Ancient Rome" links to this article which says that it estends to "... to the collapse of the Western Roman Empire in the 5th century AD". From the end of the 4th century the Nicene Church was the state religion of the Western Empire. The proposed wording therefore doesn't make sense. The best option is to leave the existing wording alone. DeCausa (talk) 23:24, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

The earlier wording was "Although the Roman state continued and its traditions were maintained, modern historians distinguish Byzantium from its earlier incarnation because it was centered on Constantinople, oriented towards Greek rather than Latin culture, and characterised by Eastern Orthodox Christianity." This is vague about what is meant by "earlier incarnation", uses "Eastern Orthodox Christianity", which is problematic for periods before 1054 (i.e. most of Byzantine history), and missed the opportunity to link to Hellenization in the Byzantine Empire. Ostrogorsky, above, specifically emphasises Christianity as a central part of the Rome vs Byzantine distinction. Furius (talk) 01:22, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

I also agree to preserve the sentence in its original state, it is concise and appropriate towards the goal in mind emphasizing the subject enough, perhaps adding the link of Hellenization in the Byzantine empire already suggested, in the word "Greek" for further research if necessary. Pablo1355 (talk) 02:21, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

I think we are going in circles. Let me recap the issues so we can narrow the debate and make some incremental progress in the interim.

1. There is consensus to keep the statement where possible
2. There is disagreement that "characterised by Eastern Orthodox Christianity" is appropriate because it does not align with the sources; it references a denomination that only came to being in 1054 but on the flip side it does not distinguish itself from the "Western Roman Empire" which was also Christian
3. So far, the consensus if for the addition of Hellenization in the Byzantine Empire for the words relating to Greek
4. There has been no comment on the proposed link Romanization (cultural) for the Latin word
5. There is a disagreement of whether to keep "oriented towards Greek rather than Latin culture" because the sources reference both language and Culture as distinct things and it implies the Byzantine Empire adopted Hellenic/Greek culture rather than influencing it.

Here's my reasoning. I believe emphasising Greek culture and not language is like mentioning the cart but not the horse. The concept of Greek culture that is different from Roman culture, especially for the Byzantine period, is incredibly complex not the least because they were Roman's themselves until competing politicians and later historians rebranded them. Up until the end of the Western Roman Empire all Roman and Byzantine subjects followed Chalcedonian Christianity and did so until the East–West Schism 600 years later, a thing introduced by "Byzantine" emperors. But it's the idea that the Western Roman Empire was a distinct empire unaffiliated with the Byzantine Empire, which when it comes down to it, is a WP:RS issue. Elias (talk) 19:24, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

I have a new proposal:

Although the Roman state continued and its traditions were maintained, modern historians distinguish Byzantium from Ancient Rome insofar as it was centred on Constantinople, evolved with a Greek character, and was a Christian state for the entirety of its existence.

Elias (talk) 20:43, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

I'm keen to resolve this issue so will wait one more day for feedback before making an edit. Elias (talk) 20:54, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

This seems acceptable to me. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 20:56, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

I disagree with the proposal to rewrite it, not only because of the strange wording but because of the ambiguous intention of a subject correctly and precisely explained in sufficient understandable parameters. Pablo1355 (talk) 04:59, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

@Pablo1355 We could rewrite it in the active voice which will help with the strange wording. I was trying to minimise changes to the text to only what matters but also accept there are better ways of communicating it. But it appears before we can agree on that, you are claiming "ambiguous intention".

What is that? Do you have issue that I want to say what the sources explicitly say?

What is correct and precise about calling the Byzantine Empire a Christian denomination that contrasts from western Europe that did not officially form until 724 years after its creation (by western historians)?

How does "oriented towards Greek rather than Latin culture" sufficiently explain to the reader that Hellenistic language and culture, which shaped Ancient Rome from the beginning with Magna Graecia, was a complex cultural co-evolution with Latin culture? (Also refer to source notes I wrote above "Freeman, Charles (1999). The Greek Achievement – The Foundation of the Western World." about how Greek shaped Latin) Elias (talk) 17:11, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

As someone already pointed out erlier in this thread, my point still stands, you argue for changing sufficiently explained characteristics within a comfortable reading, fulfilling all the necessary parameters given "misunderstandings" that are somehow not explained to the reader in depth according to you, your new proposal to rewrite it is low noted concerns which frankly aren't there to begin with, you also argue for clarifying the collective influence of Greek culture within the empire that certainly was not limited to a vague linguistic influence that could be and was contrasted with the Latinistic culture of Europe, either by the different established Christians dogmas and the language barrier or by the wide range of differences that implies being within two totally different cultural spheres (Greek east and Latin west, literature, philosophy, architecture, folklore ect) Pablo1355 (talk) 19:04, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

Is it a "low noted concern" for you that Wikipedia editors are injecting bias in their edits that are not representative of the very sources they reference?

I went to the trouble of writing everything I did to have people understand the implicit bias that exists but this seems to not be something you see. So let's please focus this on the words themselves.

• "oriented towards Greek rather than Latin culture" --> the sources that are referenced to this statement combined ((and as an aside: one should be flagged for WP:PARAPHRASE) all make a clear differentiation on language and not just culture so I've argued we need to say Greek language as well. Apparently saying Greek language and culture is too wordy so I've gone down a rabbit hole to avoid that.
• "characterised by Eastern Orthodox Christianity": none of the sources say Eastern Orthodox Christianity and only Christianity. Yet the ~80 years that historians have their invented narrative of a "Western Roman Empire" is preventing us from simply saying "Christianity" which is why I've gone down another copy editing rabbit hole.

Can you suggest better? Elias (talk) 20:21, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

Biases again?

I am not the only one in this thread that points out the ambiguity and strange nature of your purpose, you argue that there are biases involved in the editions of various editors but as you can recognize, nobody identifies them, on the other hand I also think that you do not take into account the multiple atrophies and problems writing the text that few of us approve given the strange nature of the purpose to be achieved, even less if you argue that said series of editions are given to eliminate the aforementioned bias of Western historians that you solemnly identified in a well-written text. Pablo1355 (talk) 03:10, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

It's not well written. Things I've already said are that it's in the passive voice, it does not reflect what the sources that it was originally referenced to say, it gives a distorted view of the facts, and it violates copyright per the the close paraphrasing guideline.

The entire naming of the Byzantine Empire is bias. I'm fine with that but if you don't understand that maybe you need to do some more reading. To further distinguish it as Eastern Orthodox and adopting Greek culture further distorts what Anthony Kaldellis had called definitionally a Western empire. To say it was Christian and progressively saw the preference for Greek language over Latin and an integration of Hellenistic culture into the Roman imperial framework, is not only more accurate and plays less to the bias, but it says exactly what the sources say.

Your energy is better spent on responding to what I'm saying with better copy. Do you think you can do that? Elias (talk) 06:51, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

Not only do you ignore the interference of several users in your problematic and frankly unnecessary series of edits, but you insist on using your idiosyncrasy inspired by the theories and hypotheses of a well-known Byzantinist pioneer. I think you can accept what is feasible and at hand and acknowledge that your argument for changing a good textual composition has no solid support other than removing supposed "bias" involved that could lead to "misinformation" for the reader. There is a strong intent underlying this series of edits to position Byzantium as a exact copy of Rome influenced by the Greek language alone, vaguely elaborated, denying and completely ignoring the original scholarly and universal purpose for the academic use of the "Byzantine" terminology for the studies of the Eastern Roman Empire in the process.

In a way there are more biases involved in this new series of edits with fervent conviction that certain fractions of the text are wrong and purely biased. That is the difficulty involved in the series of changes proposed in problems that few identified not worthy of compromising. Pablo1355 (talk) 22:48, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

The statement you are defending is as follows:

Although the Roman state continued and its traditions were maintained, modern historians distinguish Byzantium from ancient Rome insofar as it was centred on Constantinople, oriented towards Greek rather than Latin culture and characterised by Eastern Orthodox Christianity.

In James, Liz (2010). A Companion to Byzantium. Chichester: John Wiley. ISBN 978-1-4051-2654-0.

• P5 “...Changing yet continuous institutions, beliefs, value-systems, culture” “But from the start, there were two major differences between the Roman and Byzantine empires: Byzantium was, for much of its life, a Greek-speaking empire, orientated towards Greek, not Latin culture; and it was a Christian empire”
• The text is in violation of WP:PARAPHRASE and needs to be removed in the absence of an improvement.

Further, the consensus of all referenced sources to this statement, which can be clearly seen wit Liz James, it that it differentiates Greek language and culture and it only references Christianity and not any denomination. This is an WP:VERIFY. WP:ORIGINAL and WP:NPOV issue.

For the above reasons, this text needs to be modified. So if you would be so willing to offer a proposal of what they are they are welcome, otherwise there is nothing more to discuss. Elias (talk) 05:47, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

Again I am not the first to point out the strangeness and irrelevance of your editions.The hypocrisy in between speaks for itself, erlier, you asked for sources to be used and not wikipedia policies, in the same way I reaffirm that the existing wording is precise on point and I would advise you to stop pushing a very out of place edition lacking any useful purpose. Pablo1355 (talk) 07:02, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

To be honest, I don't find "evolved with a Greek character" an improvement on "oriented towards Greek language and culture rather than Latin." The former is, I think, too vague - who knows what "a Greek character" is? Furius (talk) 18:17, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

My original suggestion was drop the world culture and sweep the complexity of the concepts with just saying: "oriented towards Greek rather than Latin" but apparently this was too broad.

I then suggested "saw the displacement of Latin with an expansion of Greek language and culture" but this was too wordy.

I then suggested: "oriented towards Greek language and culture rather than Latin" but apparently the original wording is still better "oriented towards Greek rather than Latin culture" which for many reaasons, I disagree.

...and now "evolved with a Greek character" is too vague which is fine I can accept that.

What else can be said? The sources clearly say Greek/Hellenistic language and culture I don't know why this has to be so difficult. Elias (talk) 20:34, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

Yes, sorry. You've been very patient and your proposals have been consistently grounded in the sources. Essentially, I think that your proposal on the 21st (!) was great, clearly grounded in the sources, and I haven't found any objections to it cogent. That version was: "Although the Roman state continued and its traditions were maintained, modern historians distinguish Byzantium from ancient Rome insofar as it was centred on Constantinople, oriented towards Greek language and culture rather than Latin, and characterised by Christianity" It is similar to the existing wording, but clearer ("ancient Rome" rather than "earlier incarnation") and more precise (including language [which *is* important] as well as culture, referring to Christianity rather than Eastern orthodoxy). Furius (talk) 20:04, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

I am in agreement with you. My only modification is to link Constantinople to New Rome as it gives the reader useful context on the change. Elias (talk) 05:34, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

"Constantinople (the New Rome)" or "Constantinople"? Fine either way, really. Furius (talk) 09:28, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

I like that even better. So to restate:

Although the Roman state continued and its traditions were maintained, modern historians distinguish Byzantium from ancient Rome insofar as it was centred on Constantinople (the New Rome), oriented towards Greek language and culture rather than Latin, and characterised by Christianity".

My only remaining feedback is this could be WP:CLOP as the source this is similar to is a 2010 book. The presentation of facts is not copyright, but the way it is ordered and the words expressed is. "oriented towards Greek language and culture rather than Latin, and characterised by Christianity" would need a different expression and order, the rest is fine. But maybe an expert in this area like @Diannaa can give an opinion. Elias (talk) 19:41, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

The suggested edit as stated on my user talk page is too much like the source. I would go with a simpler version such as "Although the Roman state continued and its traditions were maintained, the Byzantine empire used the Greek language and favored the Eastern Orthodox version of Christianity." — Diannaa (talk) 20:06, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

That seems to return several problematic points. Couldn't we just quote the source? Furius (talk) 00:31, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

Thanks @Diannaa, that's a good perspective. Furius agreed. Works well if it was only that one source, but I view Diannaa's suggestion not just a good copy edit but also illustrative to avoid copyright issues.

We could quote it but then we lose all the other sources, which also means dropping the reference to Constantinople. I think that itself is important as all the sources not only discuss it but it's what inspired the name Byzantine.

None of sources says Eastern Orthodox so unless someone suggests one, it should not to be included. Elias (talk) 03:55, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

I started a new thread with a rethink. Let me know if this works cc @Furius Elias (talk) 17:50, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

"Up until the end of the Western Roman Empire all Roman and Byzantine subjects followed Chalcedonian Christianity" No they did not. The Roman Empire still had plenty of religious minorities, and in Byzantine Egypt the majority of the population were adherents of Non-Chalcedonian Christianity. Dimadick (talk) 06:53, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

Yes, that's correct. My mistake for generalising all the empire's subjects with state policy. That said, we are now in detail that detracts from the point of this discussion: Christianity, per the sources, is one of the main differentiators from Ancient Rome. Nicene, not Eastern Orthodox, is also a more accurate claim that carries from 330 AD. How it's worded where we can differentiate it from the collapse/abandonment of the western provinces historians call the Western Roman Empire I've tried with "and was a Christian state for the entirety of its existence." I'd appreciate if discussion focused on this particular text. Elias (talk) 16:48, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

With the exceptions of Julian (a former Christian in his own right) and possibly Eugenius (a Christian with pro-pagan policies), every one of Constantine the Great's successors was Christian, and typically enforcing pro-Christian policies of some kind. Whatever the causes of the Christianization of the Roman Empire were, Christians established their political dominance in the 4th century. I doubt that any description of Late antiquity can avoid mentioning the religious changes in this era. Dimadick (talk) 07:09, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

Thank you. What difference exists between Constantine's successors and the Western Roman Empire that allows us to differentiate the Christian transformation that distinguishes Byzantium? Elias (talk) 05:32, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

I was not referring to only Eastern successors. The Western Roman Empire was also Christianized. In 382, Gratian "rescinded the rights of pagan priests". A minority of the "traditionally pagan aristocracy of Rome" were unable to prevent imperial efforts at further Christianization. Dimadick (talk) 06:16, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

Is is true to say between 382 and until 478, Christianity was the only religion practiced in the Western Roman Empire? Or did elements of paganism persist despite Gratian's and Theodosius's efforts? (I'm would like to determine if there is anything to differentiate the belief systems between the Western Roman Empire with the Eastern Roman Empire) Elias (talk) 19:54, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

The only religion? Probably not. The article on the Persecution of pagans in the late Roman Empire notes that "pagans and sympathisers" survived well into the 5th century. In the 6th century, Pope Gregory I made an effort to appropriate the sacred caverns, grottoes, crags and glens of the pagans, in hopes of Christianizing the pagans of his own era. Dimadick (talk) 15:38, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

Interesting to read about the increased tolerance for the pagans in the Western provinces of the Roman Empire. Or rather the change of individual rights, from the time of the Edict of Milan to the Theodosian Code to the time of the Law Codes of Justinian, the increased intolerance.

But while this is is interesting, it does go back to the debate of when the Byzantine Empire started: when Constantine created New Rome in Byzantium, when Theodosius mandated Christianity, or after Justinian made Christianity enforced all the way but when we also saw the last of the expansion of the Roman Empire (and where historians' shifting goal posts brand everything that was in decline, decadent or negative of the Roman Empire as the Byzantine Empire.)

Regardless, I don't think there is any solid references there for us to distinguish the Western Roman Empire from the Eastern Roman Empire. My latest proposal for the replacement text drops the reference to Ancient Rome and hence the Western Roman Empire so we can avoid this comparison. Thank you anyway. Elias (talk) 19:04, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

In light of all the discussions, most recently the copyright issue of the original text, here's my latest suggestion with my notes

Although the Roman state continued, modern historians distinguish the Byzantine Empire from the earlier Roman Empire[1] due to the imperial seat moving to Constantinople[2], the use of Greek over Latin[3], and its integration of Christianity[4].

[1] We should contrast to the Roman Empire, not Ancient Rome, as that's more relevant. We should also include this to put this sentence in the active voice.

[2] The link to the New Rome page gives the reader context and we should lead with this reason as it's where Byzantium the name came from

[3] Greek language and culture are equally important, though language I think ranks first. The sources talk of both separately but at the same time as well. This is a complex topic -- Ancient Rome used Greek alongside Latin, Greek influenced Latin significantly -- that it's better to just link to the page that explains how Greek language grew. Linking to the page about Latinisation also helps illustrate the concept that with language comes a different culture.

[4] The sources all make a point of how Christianity is one of the main things that makes the Byzantine Empire different. By phrasing it as "its integration" it acknowledges the approach that we come to eventually call Eastern Orthodox but which in those days was still embryonic and undifferentiated from Western Christianity

Further, given how much discussion has occurred on this sentence, I believe we need to include all the sources that appeared with the original text:

• Millar 2006, pp. 2, 15; James 2010, p. 5; Freeman 1999, pp. 431, 435–37, 459–62; Baynes & Moss 1948, p. xx; Ostrogorsky 1969, p. 27; Kaldellis 2007, pp. 2–3; Kazhdan & Constable 1982, p. 12; Norwich 1998, p. 383.

Elias (talk) 04:23, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

No one has responded that they accept this latest proposal which accounts for every issue discussed so far. I'll wait until two other people but close it off after one week (Tuesday February 7th UTC) to count support to determine consensus or consider new revisions before taking action on the article. Elias (talk) 17:06, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, I couldn't see this before because of the way the talk page appears on a mobile. I think this works. Furius (talk) 22:29, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

Thank you @Furius. Unless there are any other comments, I'm closing this discussion and making the edit as proposed once the clock strikes midnight 7 Feb UTC. Elias (talk) 23:49, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

(a) The reference to Christianity is incorrect as it is an insuffient distinguisher from tha late westyern empire (b) you can't impose a 7 day deadline (c) stop edit warring. DeCausa (talk) 09:24, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

(a) Can you propose a better version that aligns with the sources?

(b) Sure. What can I do then to a get productive discussion for a edit?

(c) Likewise. It would be more helpful if we could discuss how to improve the text in line with the sources rather than just stating an opinion. How can that happen? Elias (talk) 14:58, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

What I propose is keeping the wording that's been in the article since (basically) 2012. As I said when I opened this thread, I don't see a problem with it. DeCausa (talk) 17:25, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

That's fine if you want to advocate for that but I'd appreciate discussing the issues I've raised before saying there is no problem because I believe there is.

Starting with a pretty significant one: where in the sources does it says "Eastern Orthodox" and not "Christianity" where in my review above is the only thing they said?

Second, if you don't think there is a WP:CLOP issue then that's also fine but you have not acknowledged that.

Third, why can't we add "Greek" to represent language and culture or "Greek language" itself which was from the 2011 original edit *and* mentioned specifically in the sources? Elias (talk) 18:12, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

You may not see any problems. I see two.

(1) "Eastern Orthodox Christianity" is problematic because for 700 of the Byzantine Empire's 1100-year history Eastern Orthodoxy didn't exist as a separate church, so the Byzantine Empire wasn't "characterised" by it... (as opposed to the fact that Western Rome was Christian for 150 / 500) That's a problem with the current sentence.

(2) "oriented towards Greek rather than Latin culture" is potentially close paraphrasing and should be rephrased. That's a problem with the current sentence. Both issues might be accepted in a regular article, but are unacceptable in a featured article and need to be fixed. Otherwise, either version strikes me as fine (it's a pity if language goes unmentioned, but it's in the infobox, so I'm not particularly fussed).

I don't really think it is fair to drop out of a discussion for two weeks (Fut.Perf. last responded here on 20 January, DeCausa on 22 January), even if it is a pedantic discussion, and then claim that changes coming out of that discussion don't reflect consensus. Elias has consistently grounded his comments in close engagement with the reliable sources and has been responsive to criticism throughout. But if we really are at deadlock, then I guess it is time for a RFC. Furius (talk) 18:57, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

Those points were brought up and addressed previously. There's only so many times that responses can be repeated. I think that gives you the answer why I haven't posted since 22 January. This thread is a pretty unreadable, impenetrable (you said pedantic) wall of text that few would want to contribute to. Maybe an RfC is an idea. DeCausa (talk) 19:28, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

I don't think they have been. The response to point (1) was that Western Rome was Christian from 330-476 so it is incorrect to imply that Ancient Rome wasn't "characterised by Christianity". I agree that that's potentially an issue, but that doesn't make it ok to say that Eastern Rome was characterised by a denomination that didn't exist for most of its history. Oh! And below (proving your point about how convoluted this discussion has become) "on how Orthodoxy was a key distinctive feature of the Byzantine empire and a distinguisher from "the West"" - but Byzantium vs the Medieval West is a different contrast from Byzantium vs Ancient Rome - and the sentence claims to be telling readers about the latter. The response to point (2) has been that the rest of the sentence is probably different enough and I take that point on the whole. But "orientated towards Greek, not Latin culture" is nearly word-for-word the same, which isn't ok. Furius (talk) 20:34, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

A Request for Comment is a great idea. Here is my summary of the issues:

1. WP:CLOP with one source. James, Liz (2010). A Companion to Byzantium. Chichester: John Wiley. ISBN 978-1-4051-2654-0. P.5. The text "oriented towards Greek rather than Latin culture" is a direct copy as well as the placement of that sentence followed by religion being the issue.

2. Reflecting what sources say which is Christianity is a main differentiator. Removing the reference to Eastern Orthodox Christianity which is not in the sources or factual for the majority of the regimes existence.

3. Reflecting what sources say which is Hellenistic language and culture became dominant over the former Latin and Latinisation. Careful attention to how it is written as it has implications on other topics. For example, lead with language which is more specific over culture or use broader terms.

4. Draw a contrast to the earlier Roman Empire versus Ancient Rome (which includes the Western Roman Empire under current historiography) and is more relevant as the Byzantine Empire was the Roman Empire not ever the Roman Republic and Byzantine is invented term to differentiate from the Roman Empire.

5. Add back all the original sources that were attached to this statement so people can see for themselves (which is what I did and what is driving this discussion).

Finally, an edit that tries to incorporate the above. I'm open to other text as long as the above is addressed. To assist, below are the first time this sentence appeared in its current form, the third the current version and the fourth my latest proposal.

Version first made in 21 June 2011:

Byzantium, however, was distinct from ancient Rome, in that it was predominantly Greek-speaking and was influenced by Greek, as opposed to Latin, culture.

Version from 8 September 2011 by Future Perfect at Sunrise

It is today distinguished from ancient Rome proper insofar as it was characterised by Christian rather than pagan culture, and predominantly Greek rather than Latin-speaking.

Current text:

Although the Roman state continued and its traditions were maintained, modern historians prefer to differentiate the Byzantine Empire from Ancient Rome as it was centered on Constantinople, oriented towards Greek rather than Latin culture, and characterised by Eastern Orthodox Christianity.

Proposed text:

Although the Roman state continued, modern historians distinguish the Byzantine Empire from the earlier Roman Empire due to the imperial seat moving to Constantinople, the use of Greek over Latin, and its integration of Christianity. Elias (talk) 21:41, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

I insisted in multiple ocassions that the original format should be maintained, because, as you mentioned it before, it doesn't break or alters in a critic matter what the information wants to tell; it results that they are formulating consensus ignoring an important mayority of users involved in this matter that does not see necessary said ambiguous editions.

I hope that you can moderate the situation since I left notice of it Pablo1355 (talk) 20:52, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

Thanks DeCausa for bringing this to talk. I'm also fine with the "pre-December" version you linked to, although I would find it natural, in a sentence that explains why X is distinguished from Y, and what distinctive features A, B and C were characteristic of X, to also add which alternatives each of A, B and C contrasts with: i.e. just as we say "Constantinople as opposed to Rome" and "Greek as opposed to Latin culture", it would be natural to say "Christianity as opposed to whatever". What I was opposed to during the latest rounds of reverts was the attempt to add "Roman Catholicism" to this "whatever". Not because it would be wrong per se, but because it would be irrelevant to the specific purpose of the sentence, which is to explain the period contrast between "Byzantium" and "Ancient Rome" – not the geographical contrast between East and West. The distinction between Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism is relevant to the perceived contrast between the Byzantine East and Western Europe during the Middle Ages, but it's not relevant to why people put a temporal cut-off point between Ancient Rome and Byzantium. – I am neutral about whether we should describe the characteristically Byzantine feature in this comparison as simply "Christianity" or as "Eastern Orthodoxy". Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:31, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

I don't disagree with what you say. It would be natural to have a religious comparison with "Ancient Rome" if Orthodoxy or Christianity is mentioned. the problem with the latter is it's not distinctive from the later stages of the western empire. I'm against making Greco-Roman paganism (as one edit included) for the "ancient Rome" side of the comparison for the same reason. I think it makes most sense to include Orthodoxy but to avoid the issue (!) by not offering a comparison as the long-standing text has. I think it's worth remembering the context of the passage. It's not, I think, necessarily about what actually changed at that time to "justify" a cut-off between Rome and Byzantium. It's "modern historians prefer to differentiate the Byzantine Empire from Ancient Rome [because]..." That's subtly different I think. Certainly Byzantine historiography has a great deal on how Orthodoxy was a key distinctive feature of the Byzantine empire and a distinguisher from "the West". For that reason, I think there's an element of retrofit going on - it's Orthodoxy plus "what led to" Orthodoxy. DeCausa (talk) 12:37, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

I'm sorry if I'm missing something obvious here, but isn't the principle reason why the name shifts from Roman to Byzantine the fact that Rome was conquered and occupied by Ostrogoths and the center of all remaining Roman power shifted entirely to Byzantium. It's like how the Phoenicians that founded Carthage just became the Carthaginians after Phoenicia was conquered by the Babylonians, for want of another example. When the symbolic center around which an empire's name revolves is destroyed, historians tend to embrace a new nomenclature. Iskandar323 (talk) 13:59, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

The center of the power had shifted earlier. The change manifested as the Crisis of the 3rd century. Diocletian's and even more Constantine's rule solidified the birth of basically a new state, which we may or may not call the "Byzantine" "Empire". 89.24.101.226 (talk) 14:34, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

Exactly. Diocletian, like many emperors, avoided Rome because citizens there did not respect him (he did I recall one visit in his reign). The empire collapsed and he (and Constantine, and less talked about Auerelian before them) remade into what effectively was a new state for its survival: a professionalised army, a professional bureaucracy, and yes a new (permanent) capital and a new religion (that was the same for "east" and "west"). Where the emperor was no longer a Princeps, or first citizen like Augustus, but a lord that was inaccessible. Which is why we call it the Dominate period.

...But why we call it Byzantine has more to to do with 8th century politics with Charlemagne and that was later blown up into the Great Game. Its been documented in Greek texts but only recently in English that the term Byzantine itself was invented by Laonikos Chalkokondyles as a way to reframe this portion of Roman history into a neo-Hellenic identity and that influenced Hieronymus Wolf. Elias (talk) 22:45, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. Charlemagne emancipated the Frankish empire. Now he was "on a par" with the Constantinopolitan state. He wanted the legacy of Rome too. So he couldn't continue to refer to the Constantinopolitan state as the Roman Empire. Now there were 2 Roman Empires, and for us (the Frankish civilization) the other one became illegitimate of course. I guess. 89.24.101.226 (talk) 06:36, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

You aren't guessing, that's exactly right. It's one of the most significant yet also misunderstood geopolitical events in Europe's history.

To understand how this links all the way to the Crimean war and the adoption of Byzantine in history books check Kaldellis, Anthony (2022). "From "Empire of the Greeks" to "Byzantium"". In Ransohoff, Jake; Aschenbrenner, Nathanael (eds.). The Invention of Byzantium in Early Modern Europe. Harvard University Press. pp. 349–367. ISBN 9780884024842 Elias (talk) 15:38, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

There are several accepted historical consensuses ignored to come up with such a conclusion, Byzantium could be characterized as a notoriously different entity from its Roman predecessor from the 6th century onwards given the important social changes, Christianity being the most relevant of these acquiring characteristics and interpretations native to the eastern Roman provinces, something that could be and is widely called "Byzantine" with good reason, thus sowing a doctrinal and philosophical difference with the West, it is entirely compatible to assume that a more direct Greek cultural link would not made them any less Roman. Pablo1355 (talk) 10:31, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

You are coming to the heart of the issue: that Greek culture and Byzantine are philosophically different from the “west”. We don’t need to inject this bias.

The Byzantine Empire if we had to define it starts when Constantine moves the capital of the unified empire. But the yard stick keeps moving for a variety of inappropriate reasons: to when the “western empire” was (re)created, to when Christianity became official, to when Justinian last expanded the realm again like traditional Rome, to when Latin fell out of favour, to when Heraclius lost Egypt and more to the Arab’s, to when the pope ordained a new emperor for the first time, to when Orthodoxy became distinct from Catholicism... Elias (talk) 15:34, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

This discussion is again digressing far too much into an exchange of personal opinions and editors' favorite theories about history. Can we please set those aside and concentrate on a simple editorial decision about the wording of a sentence? Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:26, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

I tried that. I asked we use a more universal "Christianity" not "Eastern Christianity", nor make any mention like the previous related edits of Roman Catholicism which we already agree on.

I also proposed we don't say the Byzantine Empire adopted Greek culture, but that it influenced Greek culture instead. So avoid this by using the fact that Greek as primary language, versus the dual use with Latin, is what distinguishes it from Ancient Rome.

All well documented in sources and WP:NPOV. But editors who disagree with me seem to have a different understanding of the history which is why I am dissecting this to reveal the implicit bias. Elias (talk) 17:21, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

• I'm calling time of death on this repetitive, meandering, verbosity-laden, tangential thread. As far as I can tell (and tbh the thread is such a mess it's difficult to tell anything) there are 3 editors that want to make a change and 3 (at least) that don't. Whatever the numbers, there's an obvious "no consensus" here. Having said that, they way that it has developed, no additional editors would particularly want to contribute it. I would suggest that any editor who wants to make a change arranges an RfC with a specific proposal. I would also suggest that WP:BLUDGEON is front of mind when contributing to such an RfC. DeCausa (talk) 21:28, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 January 2023 (2)

Under government and bureaucracy section:

"As result of the different Orthodox and Hellenistic political systems philosophies, from Justinian onwards, an administrative simplification was given way for the emperor's easier management of the state as the sole administrator and lawgiver of the sacred Oikoumene."

Should be:

"As a result of the different Orthodox and Hellenistic political system philosophies, from Justinian onwards an administrative simplification was given way for the emperor's easier management of the state as the sole administrator and lawgiver of the sacred Oikoumene." Corypratto (talk) 06:13, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

 Done –small jars tc 10:53, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Neither version of this sentence makes any sense... "was given way" isn't English? Furius (talk) 18:12, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 30 January 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Speedy procedural close. No reason for move has been given that even pretends to address the kilobytes of previous discussion about this issue, which has reaffirmed "Byzantine Empire" every single time. At best, this is going to be a waste of time, and at worst, another round of acrimonious debate. No such user (talk) 11:25, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

---

Byzantine Empire → Eastern Roman Empire – See reasons in other discussions in this talk page איתן קרסנטי (talk) 06:22, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

Would you be so kind to provide a summary of your argument, please? Because there's a fair bit of discussion and it seems at times very emotional, using fringe conspiracy lingo, etc. --Joy (talk) 09:24, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

There's been a consistent consensus not to move the page in previous discussions, so I don't find this persuasive. Furius (talk) 09:30, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

Well, maybe we shouldn't force the term "Byzantine Empire" for the Late Antiquity (which would be from around 284 AD to around 610/638/whatever. That material should be put into Later Roman Empire. The "Byzantine Empire" is in fact perceived as the analogy of the Frankish/West European Middle Ages. 89.24.101.226 (talk) 09:47, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose, obviously. We've been over this a gazillion times, and bringing it up again and again is disruptive, so let's please speedy close this. "Byzantine Empire" is the WP:COMMONNAME, period. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:22, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

RfC distinguishing Byzantium in first paragraph

Should the text in the first paragraph that currently says

Although the Roman state continued and its traditions were maintained, modern historians prefer to differentiate the Byzantine Empire from Ancient Rome as it was centered on Constantinople, oriented towards Greek rather than Latin culture, and characterised by Eastern Orthodox Christianity. be

(A) left as is, or

(B) replaced with Although the Roman state continued, modern historians distinguish the Byzantine Empire from the earlier Roman Empire due to the imperial seat moving to Constantinople, its integration of Christianity, and its use of Greek over Latin. 17:41, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

Survey

• (B) My reasons are here. Read the Talk discussion to see how we got here. (In Talk, you will see a source review in the second indent "I've reviewed the page reference of the sources".) Elias (talk) 17:44, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
• (B) Primarily due to the point about it being a generic Christianity-centric empire initially, with Eastern Orthodoxy specifically developing and becoming pre-eminent only with time. The other changes are generally more specific and precise. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:18, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
• (A) Prefer the wording as simpler and more grammatically coherent; dislike the extra links (the one on "Roman Empire" is redundant and the one to "New Rome" is an easter-egg link). Slight preference for naming "Ancient Rome" rather than "Roman Empire" as the thing being contrasted with, since it's making it clearer we are talking about a period division, not a distinction between two states. As for the difference between referring to "Christianity" or "Eastern Orthodoxy", I'm honestly not too fussed about either – I see nothing wrong with calling the entirety of the religious tradition that was ultimately characteristic of Byzantium "Eastern Orthodox" retroactively, no matter if there was no formal schisma in the beginning, just as I would equally have no problem with calling the entirety of the religious tradition represented by the Bishops of Rome "Roman Catholicism" in an article about them, both before and after the schisma. Also prefer retaining the status quo on purely procedural grounds, as the wording of this sentence simply isn't worth the amount of fuss made over it by a single editor, an activity that includes this RfC. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:25, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

  (Update): Agree with the suggestion by User:Tomorrow and tomorrow below, of removing the "prefer to" from the status-quo wording. In fact, that bit was only added last month in a not-very-well-thought-out rewriting [1] that was later incompletely reverted. The long-standing version simply had "modern historians distinguish …" Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:35, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

• (B) as stated earlier. Furius (talk) 22:52, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
• (A) Composition is full and accurate as it is, there is no irrelevant additional information. Pablo1355 (talk) 01:15, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
• (B) I don't believe most historians "prefer", not as a blanket statement, that they do it willingly, more like because no-one will sort out the situation. The imposter Roman Empire was the Papal-Germanic empire, there should be a section on actual historical facts on what was the real Roman Empire and what wasn't - just provide the truth. Let people choose in their mind, don't deny the b-word has been used, but don't claim it is what the empire actually was. Also, I don't like the word "continue", it could imply the real Roman Empire ended and then someone formed a continuation. In real life it "still was". Middle More Rider I would like to see a Wikipedia rule that any article on the Roman Empire would allow one single use of the b-word for reference and then the correct term Roman Empire must be used for the rest of the article, unless refering to the town of Byzantium, pre-Constantinople (talk) 04:58, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
• (A) per Future Perfect at Sunrise etc, with the important caveat that the article uses British English, so "centered" should be "centred"! Johnbod (talk) 04:47, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
• (A) But remove "prefer to" - (A) is more coherent and simply phrased. That said I think the use of 'prefer' implies that it's an intentional preference (in which case we ought to cite a source for this preference) whereas leaving it at "differentiate" more accurately reflects what it is, a which is just a widespread practice. Tomorrow and tomorrow (talk) 07:09, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
• Conditional (B), with (A) elements - the RfC was brought to my attention even though I am monitoring the article and watching the discussion on this talk page. I agree the original sentence Option (A) would use some improvements, but, IMO, Option (B) is not satisfactory enough and would use some further improvements for it to be considered worthy over (A). That is, to retain (A)'s more precise and encyclopedic wording regarding culture in the part where it writes: "oriented towards Greek rather than Latin culture". Because, when it comes to culture -not just language here- the Option B's "its use of Greek over Latin" feels a bit strange choice of wording; culture is not exactly a tool to "use", is something that characterizes the people. The Option A's term "orientation" is better here. I hope more improvements can be made to this, because this article is a highly-visited one, and would need something better than the two options the RfC does currently offer. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 07:34, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
• (A) per Future Perfect at Sunrise, Jonbod et al. Also, I think "integration of Christianity" pipe-linked to Christianity as the Roman state religion unnecessarily opens a can of worms of confusion. That reference can apply to both the Western (pre-476) empire and the period immediately prior to what's generally called "Byzantine". It doesn't sufficiently distinguish "Roman" from "Byzantine", which is really what the passage is about. DeCausa (talk) 09:00, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
• (B) is better, even if its language is less simple, as the B version gets rid of major mistakes. a) Getting rid of "traditions were maintained", as its inclusion unnecessary, because traditions change continually. b) Getting rid of "prefer to". c) The change of "ancient Rome" to "the earlier Roman Empire" - this is a good change, because the version with "ancient Rome" might lead readers to think that the ancient (i.e. classical) Rome directly evolved into the Byzantine Empire. But the Byzantine Empire is in fact instinctively used for the times after the loss of North Africa and Levant/Syria, when the empire was left only with Greek regions of Anatolia and European Greece, so approximately after 640 (which also nicely coincides with the perceived change of the empire's character, as the emperors became bearded again and Latin ceased to be used in the high administrative affairs. d) Getting rid of "Eastern Orthodox Christianity", because its a major factual error. "Christianity as the Roman state religion" is much better, even if I don't visually like the beginning bolded sentence "Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire" in that article. e) Getting rid of "oriented towards Greek rather than Latin culture". The "Latin culture" was no more when the Late Antiquity began some time in the 3rd century AD. The "Latin culture" is the culture of the classical antiquity Rome. There was no classical Latin culture as we usually understand it, in the Late Antiquity western Roman provinces. We need to start accepting the western Roman provinces in the Late Antiquity didn't have the classical culture any more. f) "the imperial seat moving to Constantinople" - I like "as it was centered on Constantinople" as it is more simple, but why not. There is already a link to Constantinople earlier in the article, so we probably can link to New Rome. g) Overall, the B version is much better, even if it has disadvantages. It would be an immediate improvement if we accepted the B version. 89.24.101.226 (talk) 09:38, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

  Please create an account so we can associate your commentary from a unique person (and not another Wikipedia user). Your contributions are appreciated. Elias (talk) 22:14, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

  @Elias, while I understand IP comments can be hard to follow at times, I think we need to remember that IP editors are human too - there is no need for them to make an account if they choose not too, and their comments are valuable regardless. Tomorrow and tomorrow (talk) 01:24, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

• (B) has better flow and, I think, more accurate to not say "traditions" continued, since much of old Roman empire was wrapped in pagan worship. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 17:25, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

• (B) Gets us closer to what the sources actually say MeteorPhoenix (talk) 23:05, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

• It is clear to me that option (B) is better. The reference to the preservation of Roman "traditions" in (A) is superfluous and vague, while, as far as the bit about Constantinople is concerned, (B) is more precise in its expression and the link to "New Rome" is a welcome and useful addition to the introduction. However, what is definitely an improvement is the rewording of the part about Christianity. Most of those opting for A have declared to simply not care too much about it, but to present the first thousand years of the Christian Church as "Eastern Orthodox" is actually a major distortion of the historical past. Again, the inclusion of the link is very apt. I am wondering, however, about what others would think about somehow including a reference to "Orthodox Christianity" with the epithet linking to the Eastern Orthodox Church, as this was in a sense distinct for the better part of the last centuries of the Byzantine Empire. The same holds regarding the Greek vs Latin phrase, with (B) being preferable because of its focus on the undoubted fact of linguistic change in stead of the more tenuous claims about culture. The claim contained in (A) is much stronger than the one in (B) and I doubt it is universally accepted by Byzantinists -- it has been argued that Byzantine culture was Roman culture translated into Greek and that high culture in the Roman Empire was already Hellenised. What, it seems to me, differentiates the Principate from later periods of the history of the Roman state are (i) the continuation of the gradual restriction of the use of Latin in the higher levels of the administration, with its eventual total abandonment, and (ii) the shrining of the state in provinces that were mostly inhabited by Greek-speaking Romans. I am wondering whether (B) could be ameliorated in this respect to indicate that Greek was already in vogue both in the Roman administration of the eastern provinces during the Principate and in the high culture of the same period, but, even if no such amelioration is considered, option (B) is by far preferable. Ashmedai 119 (talk) 16:48, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

  Regarding religion: Not sure I understand. Are you proposing that the phrase "its integration of Christianity" is better because it accounts for the first 1000 years not as a denomination, but the text is linked to Eastern Orthodox Church?

  Regarding language/culture: I agree. As you point out, Greek was heavily utilised and Hellenistic culture imparted strongly during the days of Republic but what changed was the abandonment of Latin as language in government. Refer to the discussion below I started, I tagged you on another revision that takes this into account. Elias (talk) 22:37, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

B. Eastern Orthodox is an anachronism for a large part of the existence of the empire, prefer seems unnecessary and would have to be referenced, I also agree with the IP editor's comment regarding the earlier Roman Empire being preferable to Ancient Rome. Alaexis_¿question? 20:12, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

• A per Future Perfect and for grammatical reasons. Srnec (talk) 00:56, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

  @Srnec What are the grammatical reasons? I'm aware of the issue with A which uses the passive voice, what are the issues with B? Elias (talk) 16:53, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

  The antecedent of "its" is unclear. What is "it"? The empire or the imperial seat. Srnec (talk) 20:41, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

  Thanks. So if "its" was replaced with "the" this would address your specific concern? Elias (talk) 20:55, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

Discussion

As editors give their considerate survey responses, I want to share some perspective to help us uncover consensus. I'm structuring this off Wikipedia policies.

• WP:COPYVIO. The sentence component which says ..."oriented towards Greek rather than Latin culture and characterised by Eastern Orthodox Christianity" is WP:CLOP. One of the sources that was always attributed to the sentence is a recent book (James, Liz (2010). A Companion to Byzantium. Chichester: John Wiley. ISBN 978-1-4051-2654-0. P.5) "...orientated towards Greek, not Latin culture; and it was a Christian empire”. Copyright violations require the text to be rewritten or deleted. Facts are not copyright but creative expression is, so the fact about religion needs to be presented in a different order in addition to replacing the "oriented towards" phrasing.
• WP:V. No source that was originally attributed to this sentence says "Eastern Orthodox Christianity". They all say "Christianity". While it is true the Byzantine Empire is where Eastern Orthodox Christianity originates from, it's not what any of the sources say about what distinguishes it.
• WP:NPOV Contrasting the Byzantine Empire to Ancient Rome which, according to the opinion currently adopted by Wikipedia, includes the Western Roman Empire . This means a period which also overlaps with what some historians consider the Byzantine Empire. I considered different views and think a new landmark book coming out this year "The New Roman Empire: A History of Byzantium" by Anthony Kaldellis as note worthy. He marks the imperial era of Byzantium starting when Constantine refounded the city Byzantium as New Rome. As both the Western Roman Empire and Byzantine Empire are invented terms by historians, there will always be a debate on this. For our purposes, we need to contrast it to what distinguishes the Byzantine Empire. "Earlier Roman Empire" is the best compromise I could come up with.

Elias (talk) 00:30, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

As of March 3, we have had 15 editors comment with 9 B's, 1 conditional B, and 5 A's. Reading the commentary, I think I made this more complicated than it needed to be as we are interweaving text, facts, and links so I feel consensus is hard to determine. In an effort to uncover consensus this is my attempt to dissect to focus it on the remaining issues:

1. "Although the Roman state continued, modern historians distinguish the Byzantine Empire". I believe there is consensus to have the first part written as presented.

2. Comparison made "from Ancient Rome" vs "earlier Roman Empire". Two valid points were made by Future_Perfect_at_Sunrise: the link to Roman Empire is redundant as it appears earlier in the article, and making this a contrast between periods is my intention as well. 89.24.101.226 interprets that (B)'s "earlier Roman Empire" does this as it disassociates with "Ancient Rome" which from a periodisation point of view, is correct. So while Fut.Perf claims a slight preference for "Ancient Rome", I believe we are all aligned on the point. It can be said "earlier Roman Empire" is consensus due to WP:NPOV

3. "centered on Constantinople" vs "imperial seat moving to Constantinople". A is simpler, B is more precise. Differing opinions on whether we link to New Rome. Not sure how to interpret the consensus on this.

4. "oriented towards Greek rather than Latin culture, and characterised by Eastern Orthodox Christianity" vs "its integration of Christianity, and its use of Greek over Latin". A is WP:CLOP and cannot remain and needs to be reordered in the sentence.

(a) B's "its integration of Christianity" is WP:V and consistently pointed out by people who voted B. As there has been discussion generally that the text could be written better, we could strip it down to just the fact mentioned in sources (ie, "Christian") and not have it linked (to the event that made this happen) if editors think this is better.

(b) The text about Greek and Latin, points have been raised about this and more discussion is needed on this to determine consensus and my view now is we need something else. My revised proposal is to say "saw the ascendancy of Greek over Latin".

Elias (talk) 19:11, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

On "oriented towards", it feels wrong anyway, not something really terrible, but like they chose to go with another version of Christianity, when really it is a 'just was', situation, the eastern region had that religion. I don't get why historians, with all the facts, can't comprehend that there was one Roman Empire, with varying territory over time, the last part of Italy lost in 1071 and other land in the 1100s, and that some emperors in the western area were appointed from Constantinople, for example.

Middle More Rider (talk) 18:29, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

Reflecting on the responses so far, here is a new version of text (assuming there is consensus on the facts being corrected): Although the Roman state continued, modern historians distinguish the Byzantine Empire from the earlier Roman Empire as it was centred on Constantinople, Christian, and saw the ascendancy of Greek over Latin. Elias (talk) 23:07, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

@Ashmedai 119 What do you think of this version? The question of language (and culture) is complicated for the reasons you stated, which is why I phrased it as "saw the ascendancy of Greek over Latin." Elias (talk) 21:44, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

• @Eliasbizannes: First of all, don't change your posts after others have responded to them as you ahve done here. Secondly, you begun this RfC and are a participant. It's not for you to determine consensus as you appear to be doing in this sub-thread. Consensus should be determined by an uninvolved closer. DeCausa (talk) 17:59, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

  Apologies. Yes, let's get an uninvolved editor to determine consensus. Do we do that now or wait a bit longer? My personal view is there needs to be more discussion on words around Greek and Latin to create the best version (as both options are correctly called out as not adequate) but otherwise it's ready for someone to determine consensus. Elias (talk) 18:24, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

  See WP:RFCCLOSE for that. DeCausa (talk) 07:56, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

  I'll rephrase. Do we need to extend discussion to assist in identifying consensus before the bot automatically closes this? We've had 16 editors, with 6 supporting A, 10 supporting B and with the most recent less than 24 hours ago. Elias (talk) 00:23, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Bibliography for references

• Millar, Fergus (2006). A Greek Roman Empire: Power and Belief under Theodosius II (408–450). Berkeley and Los Angeles, CA: University of California Press. ISBN 978-0-520-24703-1.
• James, Liz (2010). A Companion to Byzantium. Chichester: John Wiley. ISBN 978-1-4051-2654-0.
• Freeman, Charles (1999). The Greek Achievement – The Foundation of the Western World. New York: Penguin. ISBN 978-0-670-88515-2.
• Ostrogorsky, George (1969). History of the Byzantine State. New Brunswick: Rutgers University Press.
• Baynes, Norman Hepburn; Moss, Henry St. Lawrence Beaufort, eds. (1948). Byzantium: An Introduction to East Roman Civilization. Oxford, England: Clarendon Press.
• Kaldellis, Anthony (2007). Hellenism in Byzantium: The Transformations of Greek Identity and the Reception of the Classical Tradition. Cambridge, England: Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-0-521-87688-9.
• Kazhdan, Alexander Petrovich; Constable, Giles (1982). People and Power in Byzantium: An Introduction to Modern Byzantine Studies. Washington, DC: Dumbarton Oaks. ISBN 978-0-88402-103-2.
• Norwich, John Julius (1998). A Short History of Byzantium. Ringwood, Vic.: Penguin. ISBN 978-0-14-025960-5.