Talk:Antigua and Barbuda

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Links

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Incorrect pegging of currency

One ECD does not equal 1 USD as indicated on this page - follow the link and you'll see it's 2.7:1.

Wikipedia:Caribbean Wikipedians' notice board

I would like to announce the establishment of the Wikipedia:Caribbean Wikipedians' notice board. Anyone with an interest in the Caribbean is welcome to join in. Guettarda 1 July 2005 03:39 (UTC)

http://www.talkAntigua.com - a good site for antigua discussions. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.135.111.67 (talk • contribs).

Edit war

@123waawaaaa and BailiwickOfTheChannel: I have fully protected the page to stop your edit warring. Any resumption of edit warring upon release of the protection could result in blocks for the offending parties. Please talk out your differences below instead, and seek dispute resolution if necessary. Ks0stm ^{(T•C•G•E)} 22:33, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

The inclusion of a Shield of Arms seems to be the heart of the matter. At this time I don't have a position on that, though I have reverted that portion of the article to the pre-edit-war state. I suggest the involved parties make your arguments here, and if you come to a stalemate, consider soliciting a third opinion or seek other forms of disupte resolution. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 22:35, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

Is this even a real thing???Moxy- 23:22, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

Well according to my source, which I included in the article, it is. 123waawaaaa (talk) 23:29, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

I also remind you, most sources ignore Antigua and Barbuda, so, they mostly do not include this information. 123waawaaaa (talk) 23:30, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

The shield, without the coat of arms, is also used on the flag of the police force, and the symbol of the governor-general, among others, which proves it symbolizes the country. 123waawaaaa (talk) 23:54, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

Perhaps another question to ask is: is there precedent for usage that parameter in Template:Infobox country, or a convention that is used for other Commonwealth states? I just glanced through all of the Commonwealth nation pages; none had the shield; rather, they all have a flag and either a coat of arms or an emblem. I'd argue that adding another symbol is clutter and WP:UNDUE, unless sources can be provided that make the case that the shield is particularly salient to Antigua and Barbuda. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 01:27, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

Now, I don’t really know how I could find a source that proves something is important to a country, is there any way you think I could do this? 123waawaaaa (talk) 03:30, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

"Twin-island state" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Twin-island state and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 April 30#Twin-island state until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Peter Ormond 💬 04:28, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

"Antigua-Barbuda-Redonda" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Antigua-Barbuda-Redonda and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 April 30#Antigua-Barbuda-Redonda until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Peter Ormond 💬 04:31, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

Source needed for a translation of the official name.

For some reason, there is a citation needed tag on the Creole translation of “Antigua and Barbuda”. From my knowledge, there is no other nation article which has a source for a translation. I think this tag should be removed. CROIX (talk) 01:41, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

Per WP:OTHERCONTENT, "The nature of Wikipedia means that you cannot make a convincing argument based solely on whether or not the same or similar content exists or is formatted similarly in some other page; this is because there is nothing stopping anyone from editing or creating any article". Peter Ormond 💬 09:32, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

And yes, I know what I am saying because I am a speaker of Creole. CROIX (talk) 01:42, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

Per WP:VERIFY, "All material in Wikipedia mainspace, including everything in articles, lists, and captions, must be verifiable. All quotations, and any material whose verifiability has been challenged or is likely to be challenged, must include an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports the material". Peter Ormond 💬 09:32, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

Sources: https://www.antiguabarbudaconsulate.com/antigua-and-barbuda https://barbudaful.net/barbudaful-history/history/ CROIX (talk) 11:45, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

Both of these sources use the phrases "had the native Carib names" and "was given the name" which indicates that this name was used in the past. If these names are to be mentioned in the infobox, you must provide high quality reliable sources that say that the name is still in use today (present tense). Peter Ormond 💬 12:09, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

And, another source I have is (if you cannot find it just look up the ISBN number) CROIX (talk) 19:58, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

What is the page number? Cite the quote where this has been explicitly stated. Peter Ormond 💬 20:04, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

Page 62. “Wadadli, the Creole name for Antigua.”

Page 63. “Wa’omoni, the Creole name for Barbuda” CROIX (talk) 00:58, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Those are the names of the individual islands, not the name of the country as a whole. Peter Ormond 💬 08:10, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Page 62. “Wadadli, the Creole name for Antigua [extends onto next page 63] and, Wa’omoni, the Creole name for Barbuda is the name of Antigua & Barbuda in Creole.” I didn’t include all of it because it extended onto both pages, but yes, it was the name of the country as a whole. CROIX (talk) 19:31, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

It's WP:SYNTH. Peter Ormond 💬 20:00, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Eh no, read it correctly: “Wadadli, the Creole name for Antigua [extends onto next page 63] and, Wa’omoni, the Creole name for Barbuda is the name of Antigua & Barbuda in Creole.” clearly implys that Wadadli and Wa’omoni is the name of Antigua and Barbuda in Creole. CROIX (talk) 01:51, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Well, if you read the sources correctly, it says that the names are still used to this day. Although I’m not here to debate wether this is a language, I’m here to debate wether this tag should be used there. CROIX (talk) 19:46, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

It is unsourced, I challenged it, hence the tag must be there. And at these sources, nowhere is it written that these names are still use at the present. I suggest from next time, you should present quotes from the sources when content is challenged, instead of wasting other's time by repeating your same claims. Peter Ormond 💬 20:04, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

Why should a source be required? Look, there is no need to put a citation needed tag, because that’s like having to put a citation for a dictionary on every word you use to prove it means that. CROIX (talk) 01:01, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

My answer is the same: "It is unsourced, I challenged it, hence the tag must be there". Again per WP:VERIFY, "All material in Wikipedia mainspace, including everything in articles, lists, and captions, must be verifiable. All quotations, and any material whose verifiability has been challenged or is likely to be challenged, must include an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports the material". Peter Ormond 💬 08:10, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

• I did a little Google searching. A search for "Wadadli and Wa'omoni" returned 348 results, none of them reliable. That is pretty strong evidence that the name is not used for the nation as a whole. —C.Fred (talk) 11:52, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

  https://antiguanewsroom.com/nationals-at-home-and-abroad-link-up-to-discuss-covid-19-recovery-plans/amp/ CROIX (talk) 19:33, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

  https://antiguaobserver.com/editorial-a-merry-christmas-to-all/ CROIX (talk) 19:34, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

  Clearly refers to Antigua and Barbuda as “Wadadli and Wa’omoni”. The Antigua Observer is Antigua and Barbuda’s largest newspaper. CROIX (talk) 19:36, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

  Then this restaurant refers to the country as Wadadli and Wa’omoni: https://yo-scotty-spices.business.site/ CROIX (talk) 19:39, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

  How are these "multiple high-quality sources" as required by the Wikipedia:Verifiability policy for exceptional claims? Peter Ormond 💬 20:03, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

  Wikipedia:Verifiability

  Editors may also use material from reliable non-academic sources, particularly if it appears in respected mainstream publications. Other reliable sources include:

  • University-level textbooks
  • Books published by respected publishing houses
  • Magazines^{[under discussion]}
  • Newspapers (Which the Antigua Observer is, proof of the Antigua Observer being a newspaper is located here: , while the Antigua News Room is an online newspaper)

  CROIX (talk) 01:59, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

  @Peter Ormond CROIX (talk) 11:34, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

  "Exceptional claims require exceptional sources" per WP:ECREE. Peter Ormond 💬 11:38, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

  @Peter Ormond These are high quality sources, this is because they are the largest news sources on the island. And, these are multiple sources (ANR and AO). CROIX (talk) 20:52, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

  WP:ECREE gives an example of high-quality sources in ref 12. Peter Ormond 💬 20:57, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

  @Peter Ormond And I ask how this is an exceptional claim? CROIX (talk) 10:36, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

  Most mainstream high-quality reliable sources do not mention this name. Also, Creole has no official status in Antigua and Barbuda. So, your claim is exceptional. Peter Ormond 💬 15:11, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

  First of all, neither does English, so should we remove the English translation? Second of all mainstream media? Those are both literally the largest news sources in Antigua and Barbuda? CROIX (talk) 23:32, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

  @CROIX: This is the English Wikipedia. The English name will, in almost all cases, be included. —C.Fred (talk) 00:52, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

  @C.Fred @Peter Ormond But that does not answer my first question, how is Antigua News Room and Antigua Observer not mainstream sources if they are the largest sources in the country? CROIX (talk) 15:21, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

  @CROIX: The Antigua Observer piece is an editorial and excluded from use as a reliable source. The Antigua News Room piece notes that W&W was used in the theme of the event, but the name of the sponsoring organization calls the country A&B. Context makes clear neither that they are referring to the country and not the two islands nore that the name has any official standing. —C.Fred (talk) 15:40, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

  And what about the book that clearly states it? Did you forget about that? CROIX (talk) 15:42, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

  @CROIX: That was synthesis last week, and it still is this week. —C.Fred (talk) 15:45, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

  @C.Fred What specifically? Last time I checked the book said “Wadadli, the Creole name for Antigua [extends onto next page 63] and, Wa’omoni, the Creole name for Barbuda is the name of Antigua & Barbuda in Creole.” CROIX (talk) 15:47, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

References

Proposal: remove Creole translation of the name

Although the Creole names of the islands are reliably sourced—and belong in articles on the islands—there are no reliable sources showing that Wadadli and Wa'omoni is used as a name for the nation. Accordingly, I recommend removing the unsourced name from the infobox entirely. —C.Fred (talk) 11:57, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

• Strong Support per nom. Also, per WP:EXCEPTIONAL, this claim requires "multiple high-quality sources", but there is not even one reliable source that supports the Creole name. Peter Ormond 💬 12:07, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

  If it is not the real name than don’t refer to it as the Creole name, I recommend rewording it as it seems you are referring to the language as “lesser”. CROIX (talk) 19:37, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

  How does naming the language make it "lesser"? Peter Ormond 💬 20:00, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

  But you say it is not real, so don’t refer to it as Creole. CROIX (talk) 01:54, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

  CROIX raises an additional point: official standing. Unlike Aotearoa, the Māori name that is used by the government of New Zealand in documents–and Māori is an official language of New Zealand–Creole does not have official standing in A&B. (English has no official standing either, per the language section of this article, but it is the working language of A&B.) —C.Fred (talk) 02:06, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

  Yet most Caribbean articles also have their Creole language listed, for example Grenada and Dominica. It should also stay because this is the most spoken language in the country, and would represent the countries true demographic better. CROIX (talk) 11:34, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

  Dominica has only the English name in the infobox. Grenada has the name in Grenadian Creole French in the infobox, but GCF is a recognized language in Grenada. —C.Fred (talk) 13:43, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

  However, no source supports this? Why is Antiguan and Barbudan Creole any different? CROIX (talk) 20:50, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

  Further, there is nothing in the article that indicates that Antiguan Creole is currently the most spoken language in the country. The article indicates that Standard (British) English was dominant pre-independence, that AC was shunned then, and that S(B)E is the working language of the country, but gives no indication of how many people speak Standard English v. Antiguan Creole currently. —C.Fred (talk) 13:48, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

  Source that states Creole is the most spoken language in Antigua and Barbuda. https://www.mustgo.com/worldlanguages/creole-languages/ CROIX (talk) 10:52, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

  @CROIX: Is a site pushing tourism-related commerce reliable? I don't see their editorial policy or their article sources. —C.Fred (talk) 12:29, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

  And, even if it was not the most spoken language, it is still Antiguan and Barbudan Creole, its still from the country and is a native language. CROIX (talk) 23:30, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

  May I have your comment on this? @C.Fred CROIX (talk) 11:53, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

  @CROIX: It developed in the country but is not a native language, strictly speaking. —C.Fred (talk) 11:56, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

  It is a native language, because it is a language from the country. CROIX (talk) 15:20, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

  Not to mention the curious math problem: there are 100,000 residents of A&B and, per mustgo, 125,000 speakers of A&B Creole. —C.Fred (talk) 12:31, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

  @C.Fred There are speakers in other countries as well, such as Saint Kitts, Montserrat, and others, if you read the article you would have known. CROIX (talk) 23:29, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

  @CROIX: Their numbers were not broken out elsewhere. Hence my point: the source does not support the assertion that Creole is the most spoken language in A&B. —C.Fred (talk) 00:50, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

Reverts

I see that @Peter Ormond has decided to revert my edits? May I ask what the problem is this time? CROIX (talk) 12:48, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

You are continuing to add the same unsourced garbage, sometimes with poor or bogus sources. You have been told multiple times not to do so. Constantly engaging in edit-warring is disruptive. Instead, propose your additions here on the talk page, so that other editors can see whether that information is true or should be included. Peter Ormond 💬 17:04, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

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Pronunciation

It strikes me as odd that the pronunciation key in the lead cites UK and US pronunciations, but does not say how the actual citizens of the country pronounce its name. I’m not sure the best way to find a good source for this, but I think it should be added if possible. --EightYearBreak (talk) 17:29, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

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• Antigua and Barbuda Product Exports (2019).svg

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