Talk:Anglosphere

Political systems

I hope to add something about constitutional monarchy, FPTP, two-party system, etc. – Kaihsu (talk) 08:02, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Should it be noted that proponents typically come from the political right, and critics from the left? – Kaihsu (talk) 08:38, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Delayed response, but yes. It's worth noting that the Anglosphere concept is a political one, not merely a grouping of English-speaking nations, and support tends to come from the right. CAVincent (talk) 04:51, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

WP:BRD: “Proponents of the Anglosphere idea typically come from the political right (such as Andrew Roberts of the UK Conservative Party), and critics from the left (for example Michael Ignatieff of the Liberal Party of Canada).” – Kaihsu (talk) 10:34, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

Ireland

The comparative absence of Ireland from this article is very striking. By any reasonable definition, Ireland is surely part of the Anglosphere. Historically, genetically, culturally and linguistically, the links are overwhelming. It's true that, since the 1920s, Ireland has sought to distance itself from the UK, but it remains a fact that the UK is by far Ireland's biggest trading partner and cultural influence. The determination of some posters to deny Ireland's "British heritage" seems overtly political. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 185.108.92.22 (talk • contribs) 15:35, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

This is not the English-speaking world article. This is about of a set of English-speaking countries that cooperate militarily and have shared national security programs. As Ireland is militarily neutral, it is not included. Plantdrew (talk) 15:54, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

Quote from Wikipedia: "The Anglosphere is a group of English-speaking nations that share common cultural and historical ties to England or the United Kingdom broadly,[1][2] and which today maintain close political, diplomatic and military co-operation." To be fair, although Ireland complies with the vast majority of this definition, it does not maintain "close military co-operation" with the Anglosphere. However, according to Wikipedia, Ireland's Defence Force has purchased most of its ships from UK shipyards, all of its aircraft from UK, US or European manufacturers, and most of its military equipment from the same sources. This clearly suggests a reasonable degree of co-operation. "Close", perhaps not; but we are splitting hairs over a secondary component of the definition. From the perspective of (say) a Chinese person, Ireland is very obviously a part of the broader "Anglo" world. I will concede, however, that the article does allude to Ireland's presence in a possible second tier of the Anglosphere. But we should be clear that it is only Ireland's insistence upon "military neutrality" that keeps it apart. It will be interesting to see how Ireland responds to the increasing demands for an EU army. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 185.108.92.22 (talk • contribs) 08:15, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

You need to update the map then , as it includes the Republic of Ireland in the Anglosphere as well. Mrsunnybones (talk) 13:29, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

The map is based on Bennett's definition, which includes Ireland in the core. DrKay (talk) 18:52, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Just buying stuff is far from the Five Eyes level of cooperation. Kaihsu (talk) 10:36, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Agricultural columns for Core Anglosphere table

Are the columns about forests, crops, and livestock relevant? As mentioned in the text, these are industrialized countries and that's why they're in the core. Kaihsu (talk) 06:58, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

Ireland is not a "Core" Anglosphere Nation

Ireland is part of the Anglosphere's broader realm of influence the same as India or Nigeria are. By the most literal definition of the word "Anglosphere", Ireland is not a primary Anglosphere nation because it is not an Anglo nation, aside from the fact that it does not work with the Anglosphere in international relations. An earlier discussion on this Talk page determined that it was not really fitting to include Ireland on the page at all (Anglophone and Anglosphere are not synonyms), but Ireland has now not only been added to the page but forced into the "core" group as well? This page needs to be adjusted. 021120x (talk) 11:45, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

The article is currently abundantly clear that there are five core nations: US, UK, CAN, AUS, NZ. I'm guessing that you are objecting to the current sentence "This term can also encompass Ireland and less frequently Malta and the Commonwealth Caribbean countries." The sentence is accurate in that Ireland is much more likely to be also included than, say, Malta. If you are objecting to the map, I would be happy to see the map removed from the article entirely. It doesn't really add anything, and is a point of contention.CAVincent (talk) 14:52, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

I support removing or replacing the map. 021120x (talk) 13:59, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure we can remove sourced, relevant content just because wikipedians disagree with it. DrKay (talk) 14:42, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

I don't know that the map is particularly relevant content - I'd hope most readers of this article could already find the core nations on a map, and most of the other nations as well. As for "sourced", the map is an "own work" with multiple objections raised as to whether it actually represents the source being cited. CAVincent (talk) 10:29, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

As stated, the source reads "At the core are the central nodes of the US and Britain surrounded by English-speaking Canada, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand and the English-speaking Caribbean. The middle sphere comprises states where English is one of several official languages, but where the primary connections to the outside world are in English. This includes English-speakers in South Africa (but not Afrikaans), Zimbabwe, the non-Islamic, non-Indian former British colonies in Africa, the South Pacific, and parts of Asia. The outer sphere comprises English-using states of other civilisations and might include India, Pakistan, the Arab states formerly under British control and Britain‘s former Islamic colonies. Finally, Bennett posits a peripheral sphere of states where English is widely used but is not an official governmental language. These include Northern Europe, East Asia and northern Latin America (Bennett 2004b: 80-1)." If you wish to move the Arab states from the periphery into the outer sphere, so that the file accurately reflects the source, then the solution is to correct the file not remove it altogether. DrKay (talk) 11:21, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Definitions and Overcitation

There is currently a disagreement over whether historical ties of the Anglosphere are with the UK or England, but we also have a lead that is showing clear signs of WP:OVERCITE with 5 references next to United Kingdom. Not one of them answers the question of England or UK, and none of them are necessary as the main has a definitions section showing where the term comes from, and thus its scope. This is why I am about to delete all 5 references. As to whether historical ties are with England or the UK, there appears to be no clear source, but most countries in the Anglosphere clearly have those ties with the UK as a unified state. The exception is the USA, whose colonies precede the union. Yet the edit to assert "England" appears to be linguistically defined, which is questionable. Scots is English too, deriving directly from Old English, and so English is not just the language of England. I think the answer is not to edit war over the lead but to find some sources that discuss the while thing to place in the main section. When the matter is discussed in the main, the lead summary can be updated to reflect this. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 07:57, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

I am removing these ciitations from a run of 8 such citations supporting the text that there are 5 core Anglosphere countries. I have left in one good reliable source which is all we need to verify the claim (see WP:OVERCITE). One of the 8 is re-used elsewhere. The other 6 I list here simply so that editors may refer to them and decide if there is anything worth using from them elsewhere in the article. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 14:54, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

References