Talk:Anglicanism/Archive 6

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Ordinariates

Okay, do we really need to put the bit about the ordinariates? I feel that should properly go in the article on the Roman Catholic Church, as it really has no bearing on Anglicanism outside of the very small group that will be taking Rome up on the offer. Shadowmane (talk) 05:09, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I think that we absolutely need to mention the Ordinariates. They are clearly making some news and surfers are quite likely to come to Wikipedia to find out more about them. It is the type of question that I turn to Wikipedia for. They are clearly within Anglicanism, broadly defined. Narrowly defined, they are not, but that is the debate isn't it? What is "Anglicanism"? They call themselves Anglicans. Others call them Anglican. "Anglican" is in the title of the Papal documents setting them up. Not to include them would be to shirk our responsibility to be an encyclopedia. Not to mention them would be to leave readers in the dark about the debate over the definition of "Anglicanism". They should also be mentioned in the article about he Roman Catholic Church as well. It is not an either-or thing.--Bruce Hall (talk) 02:59, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

I simply disagree. It was such a small group that left for Rome, that its hardly worth mentioning. Everyone thinks it was some big thing that Benedict did, when all it was, was extending John Paul's Pastoral Provision for Priests in the United States to the rest of the world. It was really a "move along... nothing to see here" type move. Shadowmane (talk) 16:57, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

American vs British English?

Is this article going to use American or British English? The only two instances of a variance I could find would be "Civilisation" vs "Civilization" or "Organisation" vs "Organization."

My argument would be that for a large portion of the readership of these articles, the spelling with "S" instead of "Z" looks like a spelling mistake (And most English Spell Check programs will flag them as such). We should therefore use the standard American English Spellings with Z rather than S.ReformedArsenal (talk) 17:18, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Well, as these aren't spelling mistakes your "argument" is simply erroneous and nonsense. And Wikipedia articles are not written in "Standard American Spellings" for the benefit of spell check programs so this is also a totally irrelevant argument. Articles are generally written in the form of English which is most appropriate for their subject - and last time I checked Anglicanism is predominantly found in Commonwealth nations where British English is more common. So, to answer your question, this article will continue to use British English as there is no valid reason to change it to American English. And, for your information, the Catholic Church article is also written in British English. Afterwriting (talk) 17:32, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Articles should be written in the language that is most appropriate for those reading it... otherwise every article written about a French topic should be in French. I'll get right on changing that. My argument was that most of the readers of this article speak and read American English, and therefore it should be written in American English. According to your argument we should write this in Nigerian, since the highest population of Anglicans in any country is Nigeria. This is a community encyclopedia, you don't get to lord over an article just because you feel like it. Also, I'll get right on changing the article for the Catholic Church to Latin, since English isn't the official language of Vatican City.ReformedArsenal (talk) 18:15, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

You don't seem to have read WP:ENGVAR, and by the way there is no Nigerian language! Assuming the article already uses one of the 2 varieties of British English, it should continue to do so until there is a clear consensus here to change (and I wouldn't bother trying to get that). Your assumption that "most of the readers of this article speak and read American English" is unlikely to be correct, but is anyway beside the point. Johnbod (talk) 18:20, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

I feel like adding {{cn}} the claim that the majority of readers of this article are American English readers and speakers. Even if it were true, that is not a good argument in favour of your opinion. This is the English Wikipedia not the American English Wikipedia, so all variants of English are to be treated equally, but not mixed in its articles. That also means no Latin or Ibo articles in the English Wikipedia please. Dabbler (talk) 17:17, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

From WP:ENGVAR: "Strong national ties to a topic: An article on a topic that has strong ties to a particular English-speaking nation should use the English of that nation."

I therefore rest my case. Afterwriting (talk) 18:01, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

FWIW, Afterwriting has the better grasp of WP policy on this topic and I support his position. carl bunderson (talk) (contributions) 17:16, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

FYI Nigeria uses British English. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.31.130.20 (talk) 10:58, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

myth of the via media and use of the word 'anglican'

i find dubious the claim in the opening paragraph that some english, irish and american "anglicans" of the 17th and 18th century emphasized the via media between protestantism and roman catholicism. if this is true, the view must have been confined to a small and not very vocal minority of churchmen of this early period. it was certainly not representative. the church of england at this stage overwhelmingly, uncompromisingly (and legally) identified as protestant full stop. with perhaps the exception of some ultra high church non-jurors in the scottish highlands, churchmen--high, low, latitudinarian, etc--would have taken exception at the suggestion that they somehow stood in the middle between geneva and rome. apologists for episcopacy and the prayer book vis-a-vis dissenters at home and continental protestants justified these on the basis that they represented a truly protestant return to primitive christianity and the gospel, not a measure of affinity with roman catholicism or continuity with pre-reformation practice...not by any stretch. anglo-catholics have to stop projecting their own claims on the church back into pre-tractarian history, when such latter-day practices as swinging incense, invoking saints, using latin or even the word "mass" in worship, and belief in transubstantiation were anathema to english protestant national self-consciousness and in fact illegal. the emphasis on the apostolic succession doesn't even really come in until the 19th century.

also, there should be a section on the genealogy of the word anglican and the history of its use. except for the latinate ecclesia anglicana, one never sees use of the term 'anglican' in the 17th and 18th century literature. this is a post-tractarian neologism as far as i can tell. over and over one sees, rather, "churchmen" or "protestant church by law established" etc to designate the church of england and its adherents. if this article is to be responsibly attentive to historical context it should emphasis that both the via media concept and the very term anglican, as referring to a distinctive branch of christianity, are products of the 19th century and later. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.167.69.46 (talk) 21:50, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

Origins of Anglicanism

I was astonished to find almost no description of the first origins of Anglicanism. The most frank account was via Henry_VIII_of_England#Reformation and hence English Reformation. This is a massive elephant in the room - perhaps it is embarrassing for English historians that the raison d'etre for their country's primary religion was so that their monarch could have his choice of bride(s). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.149.180.126 (talk) 13:06, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Your understanding of the history of the Church of England is very deficient. Afterwriting (talk) 13:43, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

URGENT: search engine metadata REQUIRES edits.

The search engine summary of this article is preceded by "I hate negros." See image below. This needs to be addressed ASAP.

Link to imgur image of search results — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.81.220.228 (talk) 20:05, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Unfortunately the search engine is outside our control and well behind the times, that edit was corrected by Cluebot, a bot which roams Wikipedia article changes looking for vandal edits, in the same second that it was originally saved. Dabbler (talk) 22:48, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

It will be gone in a few days when Google updates its cache. §FreeRangeFrog^croak 02:34, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Lutheran influence in Anglicanism?

A Lutheran Influence by Bryce P Wandrey, 2, 3. This sounds rather interesting. Komitsuki (talk) 14:21, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Reader feedback: write the beliefs of the religion

2601:9:8600:263:1C43:2333:489D:D160 posted this comment on 3 January 2014 (view all feedback).

write the beliefs of the religion

Any thoughts?

Loverthehater (talk) 14:16, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Check the Anglican#Specific_Anglican_beliefs section. That section states everything, although it is hard to navigate to. I'll see if I can help with that.

Content forking

I just undid a large content fork added to the “Early history” section. The information added there is a direct copy/paste from the Celtic Christianity article. This article only should present a very short history of the Celtic churches in the British Isles as it pertains to the Anglican tradition. It should not be a discussion of whether there existed a single ‘Celtic Church’ in antiquity—that belongs on the main article that discusses this subject. This article on Anglicanism makes it clear that there were several Celtic churches and only operated independently until the Synod of Whitby due to geographical location, not because of an outward rejection of Roman Catholicism. Reference number 31 states that the "independence of Rome implied neither repudiation of nor secession from the Roman Church. It was merely temporary suspension of outward communion with Latin Christianity as a result of political events which had placed Cornwall in a state of isolation." As such, the content forking is largely unnecessary. If this is unclear, please discuss it here, rather than reverting. It seems that User:Matthewrobertolson is already close to his third revert. I hope this helps. With regards, Anupam^Talk 03:01, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

To make things clear, I have also added an explanatory note after the first mention of Celtic Christianity in the article, in order to clarify any misunderstanding regarding the term. Once again, this article is not asserting that there was a single 'Celtic Church'-that is why this article uses the term 'Celtic churches' instead, with this latter term being used in academic discourse. In addition, I've added John T. Koch's original statement on the geographical factor in the explanatory note. This should be sufficient; a whole paragraph in the article discussing a tangential topic is unnecessary and violates WP:CFORK. Furthermore, statements such as the "Irish and British were no more pro-women, pro-environment, or even more spiritual than the rest of the Church" do not belong in this article. These claims were not even made in the Anglicanism article and its addition seems to be trying to prove a point. While it is appropriate for the parent article, it is not appropriate for the Anglicanism article. I plan to add more information to the "Early history" section about the Church in England post-Augustine, since that is in the scope of this article. Cheers, Anupam^Talk 06:19, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

You have done a lot of work on this section Anupam; but may I suggest that it still sits oddly within the article - and in particular within this section of the article? The issue of precursurs to the Church traditions established following the Elizabethan settlement is tricky (and highly contested); it isn't enough (in my view) simply to include a single quote to the effect that the influence of its Celtic heritage is significant within later Anglicanism. My own impression is that the 'standard' scholarly view is that the primary sources for post 16th century Anglican identity (as it developed a distinct nature) were 'Reformed Protestantism' and 'Episcopal Continuity'; these sources (and the tensions between them) finding concrete expression in the English/British churches delegation to the Synod of Dort. An alternative and contemporary narrative sees precursors to emerging Anglicanism in the Lollard tradition - a narrative substantially supported in Foxe's Book of Martyrs. So far as I aware, finding Celtic precursors to Anglican Protestantism only became widespread in the second half of the 19th cntury; primarily as an Evangelical response to the revived high medievalism of the Oxford Movement - but it is difficult to call this specifically Anglican, as the same narrative is also found strongly in Scots (and English) 19th century Presbyterianism. Again, in my view, the more recent revival of Celtic interest derives from a separate narrative looking for non-Roman sources for 20th century Anglican spirituality. Ironically, these two Anglican narratives run parallel to an equally ahistorical set of Irish Catholic narratives; in which the Celtic churches stand for ant-Protestant continuities - the Anglican Church of Ireland having maintained physical possession of the bulk of high Medieval Irish ecclesiastical objects and buildings. Perhaps a seperate 'precursors' section needs to made? TomHennell (talk) 10:31, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

User:TomHennell, thanks for your thoughtful comment here. I would like to offer the fact that the appeal to the Celtic churches is not one of the 20th century but one that dates back to the separation of the English Church from Rome. From the beginning, Anglican divines have commented on this. Archbishop of Canterbury Matthew Parker, in 1572, "published his important work De Antiquitate britannicae Ecclesiae, in which he argued that the early British Church differed from Roman Catholicism in key points and thus offered an alternative model for patrisitic Christianity, in which the newly established Anglican tradition could see its own ancient roots. James Ussher, the Anglican Archbishop of Armagh, was promted by a similar motivation in his A Discourse of the Religion Anciently Professed by the Irish and the British of 1631" (Reference). I agree that it is only odd to focus on the Celtic churches in the "Early history" section. For this reason, I stated that I would be adding more about Anglo-Saxon Christianity there. To take your suggestion, I also would agree to shortening some of the details about the Celtic churches that are presently in the article. I am not opposed to renaming the section "Precursors" if you still think that is a good idea. I look forward to hearing your thoughts! Thanks again for your insight. With regards, Anupam^Talk 11:53, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

The Parker and Ussher references are most interesting; and relevant to the article in my view - as the current text of the para alas is not. There is, however, a world of difference between making polemical use of Old English and Irish materials, and promoting the continuation of ancient traditions. Ussher, I understand, did little or nothing to promote Irish-speaking clergy, or the continued use of Irish in liturgy. I think we do need a section on precursors; but in my view, it will have to look very dfferent from the current text - which carries to my mind, a strong flavour of the 'Not Angels, but Anglicans' narrative of English church history. TomHennell (talk) 15:53, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

It should be noted that the esteemed Encyclopædia Britannica also briefly discusses the Celtic churches in its article on Anglicanism, as well as the Gregorian Mission and Synod of Whitby. This article does well to reflect a similar structure as that reputable encyclopedia. Cheers, Anupam^Talk 17:59, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

What is wrong with this version: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Anglicanism&oldid=601051766#Early_history ? Also, I am most certainly not in violation of the 3RR rule. "An editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page—whether involving the same or different material—within a 24-hour period." I followed the rule. matthewrobertolson (talk) 16:38, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

User:matthewrobertolson, I appreciate you taking your time to discuss your changes here. WP:3RR does not just apply to a 24 hour time period. If you notice the policy, it states "Any appearance of gaming the system by reverting a fourth time just outside the 24-hour slot is likely to be treated as an edit-warring violation." I understand from your user page that you operate a personal website called answeringprotestants.com and have been adding this anti-Protestant apologetics source as a reference in this article (see diff), despite being reverted several times by other editors here. Given this fact, it will be helpful for you to read the policy, WP:COI. As a friendly alert, individuals who have a situation like yours might be reported to the Administrator's Noticeboard and may be topic banned from all Christianity-related articles. I would rather not have this happen, since you seem to have made some constructive edits to Christianity-related articles and am willing to discuss the changes with you here. Just today, you added a large paragraph from another Catholic apologetics website, which states that "The question for Anglicans and Episcopalians who see the Celtic Christians as their ancestors is: If the Celts submitted to Rome the first chance they got, why don’t you follow their example?". The addition of apologetics websites to this article is not appropriate for an encyclopedia and violates WP:RS - this article should not read as an apologetics tract. We need to use sources that are published by academic publishers in this article. In addition, you have also vioalted WP:CFORK by copying/pasting the following paragraph to this article, in a place where it is out of context:

Modern scholars, however, have identified problems with Anglican claims to "Celtic Christianity", and find the term problematic.[33] These claims are roundly rejected by these scholars, due to the lack of substantiating evidence.[34] Indeed, there were distinct Irish and British church traditions, each with their own practices, and there was significant local variation even within the individual Irish and British spheres.[35] There were some traditions known to have been common to both the Irish and British churches, but these were relatively few. In these scholars' view, these commonalities did not exist due to the "Celticity" of the regions, but due to other historical and geographical factors.[36] Additionally, the Christians of Ireland and Britain were not, apparently, "anti-Roman"; the authority of Rome and the Papacy were venerated as strongly in Celtic areas as they were in any other region of Europe.[37]

This article does not assert that the Celtic churches were anti-Roman and that the pope was not acknowledged. Reference number 31 states that the "independence of Rome implied neither repudiation of nor secession from the Roman Church. It was merely temporary suspension of outward communion with Latin Christianity as a result of political events which had placed Cornwall in a state of isolation." As such, there's no need for that paragraph in this article. I hope this makes sense. Please respond with any questions and concerns you might have. I look forward to hearing from you soon. With regards, Anupam^Talk 16:51, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

• The current version is terrible (I realize it may have been worse before). A (let us say) Japanese reader would never even get from it that all the British Isles were part of the part of the western/Catholic church until the Reformation. The presentation of the difficult subject of actual differences between "Celtic Christianity" and the rest of the church in the 1st millenium seems to cherry-pick sources, many of whom are not really specialists. Johnbod (talk) 17:00, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

User:Johnbod, I agree. What do you think of adding a summary of the following quote by historian and Celticist Heinrich Zimmer (found in reference 24), which states "Just as Britain was a part of the Roman Empire, so the British Church formed (during the fourth century) a branch of the Catholic Church of the West; and during the whole of that century, from the council of Arles (316) onward, took part in all proceedings concerning the Church. But the Irish branch of the Celtic Church was an offshoot of that British Church, and had sprung up as early as the fourth century. At the beginning of the seventh century the institutions of the Celtic Church on either side of the Irish Sea showed divergences from the Church of Rome which are well attested. These, on a closer view, admit of full explanation. Above all, we must not forget the fact that in the Roman Catholic Church the position of the Roman bishop during the fourth century and up to the time of Leo the Great (440-461) differed from that of Pope Gregory the Great (509-604) at the end of the sixth century. At the beginning of the seventh century rigid uniformity of institutions was regarded as an essential requirement of the unitas catholica ; but to the fourth century this idea was wholly foreign. Besides, many innovations took long to domesticate themselves with the distant branches of the Church. At the end of the fourth century the British branch of the Catholic Church, together with its offshoot in the barbarian isle, were severed from Rome, because political Rome had lost its hold on Britain." This way, we can make it clear that the British Isles were a part of the Catholic Church in the West and that the isolation of the British Church occurred towards the end of the fourth century? I look forward to your response. With regards, Anupam^Talk 17:08, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Okay, that's helpful, Anupam. Would you accept the first 5 sentences (leaving out the "anti-Roman" one) of the selected paragraph, then? They are valuable for clarification. Also, I would prefer it if there could be sub-headings under the "Early history" section, like the ones that I added. matthewrobertolson (talk) 17:01, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

User:matthewrobertolson, thank you for your comment! I appreciate your efforts to work with me! Did you see my explanatory note? The note quotes the author and says: "it is important to remember that there was never any such thing as 'The Celtic Church'. It was never an organized system in the way that we understand churches today. Rather, each Celtic church was highly independent and if there was a relationship between any of them the relationship tended to be one of spiritual support through missionary endeavour, rather than through any particular church structure. It is also important to remember that the Celtic church life as it emerged in fifth-century Ireland would be quite different to that which emerged in ninteenth century Hebridean communities. Even on the mainland the patterns of church life would vary considerably from one place to another, and from one age to another." This is basically saying the same thing as what your paragraphs said - what do you think? With regards, Anupam^Talk 17:04, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

I share Johnbod's concern. I'm not sure that the section is very clear still, even with the note (though the note is helpful).

Perhaps we could have this, instead:

Modern scholars, however, have identified problems with Anglican claims to "Celtic Christianity", and find the term problematic.[33] These claims are roundly rejected by these scholars, due to the lack of substantiating evidence.[34] And in these scholars' view, commonalities between the alleged Celtic churches did not exist due to the "Celticity" of the regions, but due to other historical and geographical factors.[36] Additionally, the Christians of Ireland and Britain at the time strongly venerated the authority of Rome and the Papacy, as strongly as they were venerated in any other region of Europe.[37]

That they were loyal to the Pope (at least, in these scholars' opinion) is important. This paragraph would provide a different view.

matthewrobertolson (talk) 17:11, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

User:matthewrobertolson, I understand what you're saying - I suggested adding in a sentence from the following historian: read here. I would be willing to add in something similar to the paragraph you suggested if you don't like the aforementioned source from Celticist Heinrich Zimmer - however, do you have the original quote by the author rather than your own summation of the author's claims? Also, you should note that your Catholic apologetics website states: "For about 150 years the Catholic Church in England, like the Church in China today, existed under persecution and in isolation from the seat of authority. But as soon as they had the opportunity to submit once again to Peter, the Celtic church did so." I look forward to hearing from you soon. With regards, Anupam^Talk 17:27, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

User:matthewrobertolson, my suggestion would be to add the following statement after reference 19: 'Celticist Heinrich Zimmer writes that "Just as Britain was a part of the Roman Empire, so the British Church formed (during the fourth century) a branch of the Catholic Church of the West; and during the whole of that century, from the council of Arles (316) onward, took part in all proceedings concerning the Church.' This statement is supported by reference 24 and will ensure that the Church in Britain was a part of the Catholic Church from ancient times, which is what you are concerned about. What do you think? I look forward to hearing from you soon. With regards, Anupam^Talk 17:49, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

I can accept that, Anupam. Could you make that change now? Also, again, I would prefer it if there could be sub-headings under the "Early history" section, like the ones that I added. In addition, Koch's book is available online, so I think that it should be sourced: http://books.google.com/books?id=f899xH_quaMC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_atb#v=onepage&q&f=false . matthewrobertolson (talk) 20:22, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Dear User:matthewrobertolson, I'm glad that we've come to agreement and have compromised through this discussion! Of course, I can make that change now. Also, I personally do not like the subheadings since the topics are directly related to one another. I can agree with dividing the "Early history" section into paragraphs, however, as you originally set it up. Let me know your thoughts. I look forward to hearing from you soon. With regards, Anupam^Talk 20:35, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

As far as Koch's quote, I propose adding his statement as a explanatory note right after the first occurrence of the word; the statement is as follows: In Celtic culture: a historical encyclopedia (ABC-CLIO, 2006), author John T. Koch states that "'Celtic Christianity' is a phrase used, with varying degrees of specificity, to designate a complex of features held to have been common to the Celtic speaking countries in the early Middle Ages. Doubts concerning the term's usefulness have repeatedly been expressed, however, and the majority of scholars consider it to be problematic." Koch further states that "While there is considerable evidence for divergent Irish and (to an even greater degree) British practice in matters of liturgy, baptism, and ecclesiastical administration, the usages in question seem only to have characterized specific regions, and not necessarily to have been uniformly present there. Only the Britons were accused of practising a heterodox baptism; traces of an archaic liturgy in Wales find no counterpart in the eclectic, but largely Gallican, worship attested from Ireland; and the superiority of abbots to bishops appears to have been limited to some parts of Gaelic sphere of influence." I look forward to hearing your thoughts. Thanks, Anupam^Talk 20:51, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

We seem to be on the right track, but I personally doubt that most ordinary Anglicans (let alone most specialist historians) really give much or any weight to supposed specific continuity with the Celtic church, as opposed to early Christianity in Britain generally. So we should be careful not to over-weight it. Johnbod (talk) 20:56, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

User:Johnbod, I agree that we need to give due weight to these concepts in the article. This article isn't going to present it as a fantastic continuation but will mention that after the Gregorian Mission and Synod of Whitby, differences were reconciled and that the Church in Britain was united to Rome until Henry VIII broke away. Encyclopædia Britannica mentions this history in its article on Anglicanism (a esteemed secular source) and the World Council of Churches mentions Anglicanism's Celtic heritage in its article on the subject (a respected religious source). We seem to have reached consensus here. I'll go ahead and add Koch's quote as an explanatory note in accordance with User:matthewrobertolson's wishes. With regards, Anupam^Talk 21:10, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

I think that we have reached consensus, as some clarifications are now there. I see an extra comma, though, so I'll fix that. :) matthewrobertolson (talk) 21:56, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Well done everyone, much better. I am not wanting to disturb the consensus; but I would take issue with the use of the introduction of the term 'Anglican'to describe the English Chruch of Henry VIII. This would not have been acceptable to Henry or his divines; and I don't think is supported in the references. Here is the para;

The Church in England remained united with Rome until the English Parliament, through the Act of Supremacy, declared King Henry VIII to be the Supreme Head of the Church of England in order to fulfill the "English desire to be independent from continental Europe religiously and politically." Although now separate from Rome, the Anglican Church, at this point in history, continued to maintain the Roman Catholic theology on many things, such as the sacraments.[43] Under King Edward VI, however, the Anglican Church underwent what is known as the English Reformation.[44]

I would propose adjusting this para as follows:

The Church in England remained united with Rome until the English Parliament, through the Act of Supremacy, declared King Henry VIII to be the Supreme Head of the Church of England in order to fulfill the "English desire to be independent from continental Europe religiously and politically." Although now separate from Rome, the English Church, at this point in history, continued to maintain the Roman Catholic theology on many things, such as the sacraments.[43] Under King Edward VI, however, the Church in England underwent what is known as the English Reformation; in the course of which it acquired a number of characteristics that would subsequently become recognised as constituting a distinct, Anglican, identity.[44]

Do others agree? TomHennell (talk) 11:09, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

User:TomHennell, I see no problem with your changes. Feel free to make them! Best wishes, Anupam^Talk 20:23, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Yes, better, but the wording of "continued to maintain the Roman Catholic theology on many things" could be improved. Johnbod (talk) 13:21, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

agreed; so please improve it. TomHennell (talk) 17:27, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

"Although now separate from Rome, the English Church for the moment remained Roman Catholic in theology on most matters, such as the sacraments.[43]". Actually I don't really like the last bit above - placing the start of the "English Reformation" under Edward is surely unusual among historians, and Edward was taking the Church in a pretty conventionally Protestant direction. The "distinct, Anglican, identity" is normally ascribed to Elizabeth's reign, I think rightly. Johnbod (talk) 14:17, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

This isn't really a section on the history of the church in England; but specifically of Anglicanism. I think the current consensus would be that many key features that would subsequently become characteristic of Anglicanism are first apparent in the Reformed Church of Edward VI - that certainly is the perspective of Diarmaid Macculloch. Maybe I should add that reference. This is not to say that Edward's Reformed Church was - or indeed aspired to be - 'Anglican'. Edward's reformed church (which in this context largely means Cranmer) aspired to be one of the leading centres of Reformed Learning across Western Christendom (hence the key functions accorded in it by such European reformers as Martin Bucer and Peter Martyr); but a distinct practice, liturgy and theology was created within it that diverged increasingly from concurrent trends in reformed churches in Europe, and specifically Geneva. Subsequently, the Elizabethen Settlement explicitly looked back to this Edwardian reformed church as a model (as for example in the Ornaments Rubric) in conscious rejection of those who argued that ongoing developments in Geneva should be normative for reformed churches throughout Europe. So, it is indeed true that the distinct 'Anglican identity' arose bit-by-bit within the Elizabethan church, but definining components of that identity were taken from the reformed Edwardian Church; even though mainstream European (and Scots) Reformed practice had now moved on to reject these same components as no longer acceptable.

Conventionally, of course, the English Reformation is presented as starting under Henry VIII; a narrative that subsequently accorded with the both Protestant and Catholic historical perspectives; but which is now much contested. But whatever Henry's church was, it was in no sense 'Anglican' either in intention or as a subsequent model. TomHennell (talk) 16:28, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Well if we are going to depart from convention, we should explain so, and justify it better. At the moment the text does pretty much say "that Edward's Reformed Church was - or indeed aspired to be - 'Anglican'". Oh well, anything to keep the dreaded P-word out of the article. Johnbod (talk) 16:41, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

We do find the words Protestant and Catholic later in this section (in the bit about Maurice), so perhaps they do need introducing to this bit; if we are taking it as a historical context. The difficulty being that, while most Anglicans over the years have happily tended to understand themselves as both Protestant and Catholic, Catholics do not accept them as Catholic, and Protestants only accept them as Protestant with severe reservations. That especially applies to those elements of the Anglican tradition and identity that go back to the Edwardian Chuch - such as the Book of Common Prayer, with its radically innovative structures of congregational participation in the liturgy. But all this needs referencing. TomHennell (talk) 17:14, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

I find it's more that both Catholics and Protestants accept, with a certain sniffiness, some Anglicans as being of their tradition, but not those who self-identify with the other of the terms - which is understandable really. Johnbod (talk) 21:25, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Trouble archiving links on the article

Hello. I am finding myself repeatedly archiving links on this page. This usually happens when the archive doesn't recognize the archive to be good.

This could be because the link is either a redirect, or I am unknowingly archiving a dead link. Please check the following links to see if it's redirecting, or in anyway bad, and fix them, if possible.

• http://books.google.com/books?id=oxu2zjbxjnwC&pg=PA26&lpg=PA26&dq=anglicans+from+celtic+church&source=bl&ots=OU3DEaO55o&sig=F9lBOSnnKwYVf1z5pGsE7i1XZ4Q&hl=en&sa=X&ei=PzccU_vcFoXXqAHDk4G4CQ&ved=0CCYQ6AEwATgU#v=onepage&q=anglicans%20from%20celtic%20church&f=false
• http://books.google.com/books?id=1TBFAQAAQBAJ&pg=PT882&dq=christianity+arrived+britain+tertullian&hl=en&sa=X&ei=oqAnU-CeBJKxqQHGy4H4DQ&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=christianity%20arrived%20britain%20tertullian&f=false
• http://books.google.com/books?id=pGLstPf5iJMC&pg=PA9&dq=Towards+the+end+of+the+sixth+century+a+great+spiritual+leader,+Gregory,+became+Pope.+He+inherited+a+Church+which+was+very+weak+and+disorganized.+Consequently+he+set+about+sending+key+people+throughout+the+continent+to+organize+this+Church,+and+bring+some+sense+of+cohesion.+To+these+islands+he+sent+St+Augustine...to+bring+the+wayward+Celtic+churches+into+line.+Then,+as+now,+the+life+of+those+in+the+British+Isles+tended+to+be+rather+separate+from+the+rest+of+the+continent.&hl=en&sa=X&ei=heonU-rgK-rJygHrv4CYAw&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Towards%20the%20end%20of%20the%20sixth%20century%20a%20great%20spiritual%20leader%2C%20Gregory%2C%20became%20Pope.%20He%20inherited%20a%20Church%20which%20was%20very%20weak%20and%20disorganized.%20Consequently%20he%20set%20about%20sending%20key%20people%20throughout%20the%20continent%20to%20organize%20this%20Church%2C%20and%20bring%20some%20sense%20of%20cohesion.%20To%20these%20islands%20he%20sent%20St%20Augustine...to%20bring%20the%20wayward%20Celtic%20churches%20into%20line.%20Then%2C%20as%20now%2C%20the%20life%20of%20those%20in%20the%20British%20Isles%20tended%20to%20be%20rather%20separate%20from%20the%20rest%20of%20the%20continent.&f=false
• http://books.google.com/books?id=u6DU_WJEdGYC&pg=PA11&dq=book+of+common+prayer+reformation&hl=en&sa=X&ei=QwYoU-aNIYaTyQHr1YHgBg&ved=0CGEQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=book%20of%20common%20prayer%20reformation&f=false

In any event this will be the only notification in regards to these links, and I will discontinue my attempts to archive these pages.

Cheers.—^{cyberbot II}_{Talk to my owner:Online} 18:47, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to one external link on Anglicanism. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/20071014192339/http://legacyweb.org:80/YouthCong.htm to http://www.legacyweb.org/YouthCong.htm

Cheers.—^{cyberbot II}_{Talk to my owner:Online} 18:47, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Nothing

Understandably, there is nothing about the way Anglicanism was imposed by force from the 16th century to the 19th. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.177.161.186 (talk) 12:58, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

Protestantism was imposed by force in the whole of north-western Europe. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.177.161.186 (talk) 13:00, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

Roman Catholicism was imposed by force in many parts of Europe too. Dabbler (talk) 03:29, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

Islam was imposed by force all over North Africa, the Middle East, and some other parts of the world too, I believe. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.30.162.162 (talk) 21:53, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to one external link on Anglicanism. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/20150622154316/http://www.geocities.com/xnomad4/index.html to http://www.geocities.com/xnomad4/index.html

N An editor has determined that the edit contains an error somewhere. Please follow the instructions below and mark the |checked= to true

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Geocities has closed so this item probably needs a new reference

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the —^{cyberbot II}_{Talk to my owner:Online} 08:13, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 2 external links on Anglicanism. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

• Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20110714002912/http://www.lutterworth.com/lp/titles/angeiren.htm to http://www.lutterworth.com/lp/titles/angeiren.htm
• Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20110714002920/http://www.lutterworth.com/jamesclarke/jc/titles/anglican.htm to http://www.lutterworth.com/jamesclarke/jc/titles/anglican.htm

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Cheers.—^{cyberbot II}_{Talk to my owner:Online} 07:02, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

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I have just modified one external link on Anglicanism. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20081119122715/http://www.fcofe.org.uk/about_the_free_church_of_england.htm to http://www.fcofe.org.uk/about_the_free_church_of_england.htm

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Question about the lead section / terminology.

Hi, Before jumping in and removing some lines of text I am wondering if someone could help me with the following: whether a.) the lead section is too long (I think it is) and b.) whether its good form to repeat definitions in the lead section which are also covered in the terminology section? It struck me as odd, and unnecessary while reading the article.ronaz^Talk! 12:20, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

Yes. No. Laurel Lodged (talk) 13:49, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

Yes. No. Chicbyaccident (Please notify with {{SUBST:re}} (Talk) 13:55, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

Much too long; Much of the second para, plus the whole of the third and fourth paras have migrated to the lead from the section on Anglican Identity - and should be put back there. TomHennell (talk) 14:03, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

Because of the complexity of the subject the lead section may well need to be as long as it is.--Johnsoniensis (talk) 20:15, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

No. Yes. Johnbod (talk) 20:24, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

Personal ordinariates

User:Chicbyaccident added (in bold) "Some churches that are not part of the Anglican Communion also consider themselves Anglican, including those that are part of the Continuing Anglican movement and the Anglican realignment, as well as personal ordinariates.", giving a reference of [1]. I don't think that the personal ordinariates consider themselves Anglican, and I can't see where the source could be read to say they do. The first sentence of the history section there is "There have always been converts to the Catholic Church from Anglicanism." - 'from' would seem to me to suggest 'no longer'. It talks about Anglican Use, and the "Anglican patrimony"; but, again, these are very different from being an Anglican. Our own page on the personal ordinariates is pretty explicit:

"Anglican ordinariates" is often used by newspapers, such as the Church of England Newspaper and the Canadian Catholic Register. It is also often used by communities belonging to the ordinariates. The name does not imply that the members of an ordinariate are still Anglicans. While those who have been Anglicans "bring with them, into the full communion of the Catholic Church in all its diversity and richness of liturgical rites and traditions, aspects of their own Anglican patrimony and culture which are consonant with the Catholic Faith", they are "Catholics of the Latin Rite, within the full communion of the Catholic Church ... no longer part of any other communion".

TSP (talk) 10:18, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

Yes, as the quoted source says, they are not part of the Anglican Communion. That is right. But that is another article than that on Anglicans in a more general sense, of which "Anglican patrimony and culture" is retained in the personal ordinariate despite part of the Catholic Church. By definition, if the converts didn't wish to retain the "Anglican patrimony and culture", they would not have joined the personal ordinariate, but a regular Catholic diocese. Chicbyaccident (talk) 10:31, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

Wishing to retain "Anglican patrimony and culture" is different to "consider[ing] themselves Anglican". The sentence is specifically talking about the latter; and I think all sources are pretty clear that does not apply to the personal ordinariates. Our own article on Anglican use clearly refers throughout to "former Anglicans", and, as I have quoted, our personal ordinariate article has a specific paragraph to ward off the misconception that they could be considered Anglican.

Groups which do not identify as Anglican but consciously seek to retain some aspects of Anglican culture are not relevant enough for inclusion in the lead, I think, though could have a mention elsewhere in the article. TSP (talk) 10:41, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

Agreed, these groups have consciously chosen to leave the Anglican Communion, while still retaining some parts of Anglican liturgy and ritual. As such they should be treated like Methodists etc. as people who have broken the link with Anglicanism while still retaining some aspects of their historic ceremonies. Dabbler (talk) 13:51, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

Protestant

@Johnsoniensis: There seems to be a debate again about the categorisation of Anglicanism along with Anglican denominations as Protestant - something that I thought was already cleared, according to established consensus in both article content and categorisation over the board since a long time? Chicbyaccident (talk) 21:07, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

If consensus has been established I will observe it.--Johnsoniensis (talk) 08:11, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

Catholic Church naming conventions RfC

There is currently an RfC at Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(Catholic_Church)#RfC:_should_this_page_be_made_a_naming_convention that may be of interest. Gaia Octavia Agrippa ^Talk 23:44, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

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Episcopal needs to redirect here

The page Episcopal should redirect here too, as many people are mistakenly described as "Episcopal" instead of "Episcopalian".

Moved Plagiarized Text

I found this source, Church Schism & Corruption (9781409221869), everything on the page under social activism was directly plagiarized from it. Does someone have time to paraphrase this and move it back onto the main page?

Working conditions and Christian socialism "Lord Shaftesbury, a devout evangelical, campaigned to improve the conditions in factories, in mines, for chimney sweeps, and for the education of the very poor. For years he was chairman of the Ragged School Board. Frederick Denison Maurice was a leading figure advocating reform, founding so-called "producer's co-operatives" and the Working Men's College. His work was instrumental in the establishment of the Christian socialist movement, although he himself was not in any real sense a socialist but, "a Tory paternalist with the unusual desire to theories his acceptance of the traditional obligation to help the poor", influenced Anglo-Catholics such as Charles Gore, who wrote that, "the principle of the incarnation is denied unless the Christian spirit can be allowed to concern itself with everything that interests and touches human life." Anglican focus on labour issues culminated in the work of William Temple in the 1930s and 1940s."

Pacifism A question of whether or not Christianity is a pacifist religion has remained a matter of debate for Anglicans. In 1937, the Anglican Pacifist Fellowship emerged as a distinct reform organisation, seeking to make pacifism a clearly defined part of Anglican theology. The group rapidly gained popularity amongst Anglican intellectuals, including Vera Brittain, Evelyn Underhill, and the former British political leader George Lansbury. Furthermore, Dick Sheppard, who during the 1930s was one of Britain's most famous Anglican priests due to his landmark sermon broadcasts for BBC Radio, founded the Peace Pledge Union a secular pacifist organisation for the non-religious that gained considerable support throughout the 1930s.

Whilst never actively endorsed by Anglican churches, many Anglicans unofficially have adopted the Augustinian "Just War" doctrine. The Anglican Pacifist Fellowship remain highly active throughout the Anglican world. It rejects this doctrine of "just war" and seeks to reform the Church by reintroducing the pacifism inherent in the beliefs of many of the earliest Christians and present in their interpretation of Christ's Sermon on the Mount. The principles of the Anglican Pacifist Fellowship are often formulated as a statement of belief that "Jesus' teaching is incompatible with the waging of war ... that a Christian church should never support or justify war ... [and] that our Christian witness should include opposing the waging or justifying of war."

Confusing the matter was the fact that the 37th Article of Religion in the Book of Common Prayer states that "it is lawful for Christian men, at the commandment of the Magistrate, to wear weapons, and serve in the wars." Therefore, the Lambeth Council in the modern era has sought to provide a clearer position by repudiating modern war and developed a statement that has been affirmed at each subsequent meeting of the Council.

This statement was strongly reasserted when "the 67th General Convention of the Episcopal Church reaffirms the statement made by the Anglican Bishops assembled at Lambeth in 1978 and adopted by the 66th General Convention of the Episcopal Church in 1979, calling "Christian people everywhere ... to engage themselves in non-violent action for justice and peace and to support others so engaged, recognising that such action will be controversial and may be personally very costly... this General Convention, in obedience to this call, urges all members of this Church to support by prayer and by such other means as they deem appropriate, those who engaged in such non-violent action, and particularly those who suffer for conscience' sake as a result; and be it further Resolved, that this General Convention calls upon all members of this Church seriously to consider the implications for their own lives of this call to resist war and work for peace for their own lives." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aschuet1 (talk • contribs) 18:02, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

I restored the text--it is original to Wikipedia and the "source" [ Church Schism & Corruption 2010] copied it from Wikipedia--where it appeared years earlier. -- the "source" is a self-published fringe case Rjensen (talk) 19:02, 13 April 2018 (UTC)