Talk:Airbus

The Nationality of Airbus

The national origins of Airbus is variously described as European or 'multinational' on different Wiki pages. The Airbus article has it correct as European but other pages do not. Apparently, there is a consensus somewhere that it is ' multinational' but I, and others, cannot find it. I am just parking the comment, below, on the nationality of Airbus as a source to inform future discussion:

Wikipedia may be slipping behind the times where it maintains that Airbus SE is 'international', and it may be that the consensus debate considered the EU to be merely an association of European countries. The EU is not yet a sovereign state but it is a legal and political entity that often supersedes national law and politics on many issues, one being business law and the operating environment of Airbus. First up, there is legally no such thing as a multinational company, it may operate internationally, as does Boeing, but will always be incorporated in a specific country. In the case of Airbus the country of incorporation is, technically, the Netherlands although the main administration is based in France. However, Airbus is never regarded as being Dutch, or French, because it actually comes under the legal European Union framework of Societas Europaea. Societas Europaea provides the supra-national framework that allows companies registered in a member state to operate as a European Union identity for legal and trading purposes. National laws are subordinate to those of Societas Europaea but persist where SE is silent on an issue. The Statute for European Company Regulation 2001allows for a European company to incorporate in a specific EU country and be regarded as a European company but the actual country of registration is becoming increasingly irrelevant as most of the national legal systems become subordinated to EU ones, this is why the UK is faced with the stupefying task of adopting several thousand EU laws into the UK legal system before Brexit. There are in excess of 3,000 companies SE registered and referred to as 'European' rather than Spanish, German or French. British companies that currently operate as European will have to revert to UK business laws after Brexit and leave the SE. Even my burgundy European passport will be reissued as a blue UK one at Brexit and I will be reverted to UK law at that time. It is correct that the EU is not a sovereign nation but it is far more than an association of sovereign countries, it is a legal and political entity with a governing body and parliament to which member states send delegates and it may even become a sovereign entity. Airbus SE is registered to trade shares in France, Germany and Spain maybe UK?). Given that the nationality of a company cannot be 'multinational' it has to be assigned to somewhere. Calling it Dutch is correct but silly, pedantic and few people even know that it is incorporated there. The perfectly correct and legal answer, and this is even in Airbus's own governance documentation on its website is that it is SE European, meaning the political-legal entity of the European Union. Regarding its multinational operations, these arrangements are almost identical to that of Boeing, which is definitely American, not 'multinational'. The actual country of origin of Airbus is not open to consensus, it is legally defined, there is actually a specific answer to the matter. I am merely an MBA operating within the EU business environment but not a lawyer, do we have any European lawyers out there want to clear this up, definitively? Ex nihil ^(talk) : Ex nihil (talk) 08:18, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

I don't think we need a lawyer to settle this issue. Setting aside your vaguely political comments on Brexit (which do no favour to your argument, regardless of one's own opinions on Brexit (or indeed the position that Airbus itself has recently publicised with regard to Brexit)), I fully concur that we should be calling Airbus a "European company". As you point out, the fact some of its activities are conducted outside Europe is irrelevant, just as Boeing's non-American activities are irrelevant to its status as a US company. Rosbif73 (talk) 11:17, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

The headquarters of Airbus were consolidated to France by 2017 so I don't know why you keep changing it to the Netherlands. The CEO lives in France along with all of its board members. The press keeps referring to it as French Airbus for a good reason. It is the HQ and home to half of its employees. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:F180:FBE0:1CE4:EBA0:48D3:E74B (talk) 11:05, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

The headquarters may be in France but the registered office of "Airbus SE" is Mendelweg 30, 2333 CS Leiden, The Netherlands and registered with the Dutch Commercial Register. One of the reportable segments of "Airbus SE" is "Airbus" the former Airbus Commerical Aircraft which probably is run from France so you may be confusuing "Airbus SE" (the holding company) and "Airbus" the segment that makes commercial aircraft. This article is about "Airbus SE" so the Netherlands is correct. MilborneOne (talk) 14:12, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

Just to add the other two of the three segments are "Airbus Helicopters" and "Airbus Defence and Space". MilborneOne (talk) 14:13, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

The address you provided is for Airbus Defence and Space Netherlands. It employees 200 people that have nothing to do with corporate. The offices you are talking about moved to Toulouse in 2017 where all corporate functions are now handled. Your information is out of date, please update it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:F180:FBE0:7184:C6B5:829F:84BF (talk) 17:41, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

Not according to Airbus who for some reason keep saying "Amsterdam" in 2018 press releases and the like. Just to quote a recent 2018 document "Airbus SE (the "Company") is a European public company (Societas Europaea), with its seat in Amsterdam,The Netherlands... So if you are sure the registered office has moved from The Netherlands Airbus don't seem to have spotted it. Just because the office staff are in Tolouse doesn't change the legal position. Please read the Airbus website and please sign your posts, thanks. MilborneOne (talk) 17:56, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

There three separate considerations here: the place that Airbus is legally incorporated, the place(s) where it's main (and secondary) administration centres are, and the places where it manufactures, including overseas. These locations are all pretty transparent. Basically, it is European operating internationally. I rather imagine that Boeing has a very similar setup, correct me if I'm wrong but I think it is incorporated in Delaware, its main offices are in Chicago and it manufactures in various places, including overseas. Basically, it is American operating internationally. Ex nihil ^(talk) : Ex nihil (talk) 15:55, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

Most people speaking casually would say that Boeing is "based" in Chicago, not Delaware, which might be the analogue of the argument for wanting to emphasize France as the base of Airbus? CapitalSasha ~ talk 22:48, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

Interesting comparison: Boeing HQ is based in Chicago but Boeing is historically associated with Seattle/Washington state, where it still has its main operations. But at least Boeing's management is really in Chicago, while Airbus' heads and main operations are in Toulouse, which could be renamed AirbusVille, the NL HQs are in paper only.--Marc Lacoste (talk) 08:10, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

Clarifications needed in article: Was Airbus/EADS originally entirely or partly state-owned? Is it partly state-owned now (that is, at date of writing)? If so, what states, and what are their percentages? Acwilson9 (talk) 19:59, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

The company is unambiguously Dutch. From their website: The Company is governed by the laws of the Netherlands (in particular Book 2 of the Dutch Civil Code) and by its Articles of Association.[1] Also, all the shareholder meetings take place in the Netherlands. -- DeFacto (talk). 20:22, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

Airbus is a wholly public company operating under the legal European Union legal framework of Societas Europaea and incorporated in the Netherlands. A company may be European under Societas Europaea but needs to be incorporated in a specific state, just as Boeing is American but must be incorporated in a specific state. Where either Airbus or Boeing are incorporated has little bearing on where they actually operate, just the laws under which they operate. Ex nihil ^(talk) : Ex nihil (talk) 00:17, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

@Ex nihil: the big difference though is that the US is a sovereign country, whereas the EU is not. That means "American" is a nationality, whereas "EUian", or even "European" if we assume for a moment that the EU controls the whole continent, despite only including 27/8 of its 50 sovereign states, is not. -- DeFacto (talk). 07:15, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

@DeFacto: you are right, the EU is not technically a sovereign state but the significance of the Societas Europea (SE) is not well understood overseas and from a business point of view it allows a business to actually be, legally, 'European'. The SE provides the legal framework for businesses to register as European under that framework and the state laws are subordinated to the framework laws so are sovereign over the consituent countries. Over 3,000 large businesses are now under the Societas Europea and they describe themselves as European entities (if they want to) rather than Dutch, German or French. So, it's a concept that may be a little hard to grasp overseas but there really is a European political entity, with a set of business rules, a shared law that eclipses state law, an elected parliament etc etc. All the mechanics of an actual state without (yet anyway) actually calling itself a state. Airbus is entitled to call itself a European business and it certainly would not want to maarket itself as Dutch, French or whatever. To all intents and purposes, Europe is a country but not as we known it. Ex nihil ^(talk) : Ex nihil (talk) 08:40, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

To put that another way, SE status would be the equivalent of incorporating a US company at federal level (which I don't believe is possible under US law), rather than in a particular state. Rosbif73 (talk) 09:08, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

This article is completely wrong. Is merging data and history of two completely different companies: the Dutch holding company currently called Airbus Group SE (previously EADS) and the French aircraft manufacturer Airbus SAS (originally known Airbus Industrie consortium) - that is the legal entity that makes the civil airliners, and other subsidiaries of Airbus Group through the world. There is no European nationality for companies, so nor Airbus or any of its subsidiaries can be defined specifically as 'European'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.69.224.14 (talk) 08:37, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

The 'SE' after Airbus Group means that it is indeed registered as a European corporation. What used to be Airbus SAS is one of three divisions within Airbus SE: commercial aircraft, helicopters and aerospace. Check out the Airbus governance framework here [2] Ex nihil ^(talk) : Ex nihil (talk) 16:45, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

This article is completely wrong, as it mixes three different companies. One the one hand, the Dutch company Airbus SE, that acts as a shell holding company but produces nothing. On the other hand, the French Airbus SAS, based in Toulouse, that produces most of the civil range airliners. Additionally, the Canadian Airbus Canada Ltd., that produces de A220. They are separate legal companies even if they chairman and the board are the same.

Maybe someone can explain why so many users remove many times informations about Blagnac headquarters? Manys contributors try to put this information (with official links) on this page since many years. But a lot a people prefer to speack about a "Dutch" company. --2A01:CB08:8AED:E00:B44F:6FC8:7627:7C6E (talk) 19:55, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

The Massive Corruption and Non-Compliance Scheme

One big chapter of the Airbus story should be dedicated to their massive corruption and non-compliance system which ended up in world record fines in 4 countries (although it is not clear whether the system has really come to its end and which crimes did not surface at all ... ). https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jan/31/airbus-to-pay-record-3bn-in-fines-for-endemic-corruption

Hopefully someone will do some research some day on what effect this massive system which ruined honest merchants, respectable employees, good faith competitors, national economies all over the world etc. had on the "progress" in aerospace.

I dare to say that without Airbus' crimes and dishonesty of the majority in top and middle management all aviation and space products would be better, more modern, more ecological and more efficient for the benefit of mankind. Instead we still have to fly in noisy, crampy, smelly, and petrol-eating planes like in the 80s. Where is the progress compared to what happened in telecommunication, IT, computer and software industries etc. ??? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:CF:1F44:4560:CCFF:DDBE:CE0D:6554 (talk) 16:03, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Looks a bit as if the mess with the various legal entities mentioned above was done on purpose to support the corruption scheme.--89.244.27.172 (talk) 18:52, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a forum and Talk pages are for improving the encyclopedia, not for expressing personal opinions on a subject or an editor.--Marc Lacoste (talk) 19:19, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Corporate merger tree diagram

Is there reason for this reading from R to L? S C Cheese (talk) 15:02, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

Airbus

What are all of Airbus's planes? 24.118.221.221 (talk) 21:55, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Dear, new IP editor. This Talk page is about how to improve the article, it is not a chat group. If you think that the article needs to list all Airbus aircraft, then suggest it here. However, the main article has already done this. Ex nihil ^(talk) 12:25, 10 October 2022 (UTC)