Talk:Abraham Lincoln/Archive 7

Abraham lincoln is the 16th U.S. president mother Nancy Hanks was claimed to be of African descent (EthiopianTigrayan descent- an Ethinic group in north Ethiopia)

According to historian William E. Barton, a rumor "current in various forms in several sections of the South" was that Lincoln's biological father was Gorge Enloe, which Barton dismissed as "false".[30] According to Doug Wead, Enloe publicly denied this connection to Lincoln but is reported to have privately confirmed it.[31] Another claim was that Lincoln was "part Negro",[32] but that was unproven.[33][34] According to Lincoln's law partner William H. Herndon, Lincoln had "very dark skin"[35] although "his cheeks were leathery and saffron-colored"[36] and "his face was ... sallow,"[36] and "his hair was dark, almost black".[37] Abraham Lincoln described himself ca. 1838–'39 as "black"[38] and his "complexion" in 1859 as "dark"[39] but whether he meant either in an ancestral sense is unknown. The Charleston Mercury described him as being "of ... the dirtiest complexion".

Lincoln's Religion

It was very clear that Lincoln believed in no religion, so why talk about his religious background I say we put it back like it was Religion = none, besides the facts in the table should be quick greater details could be mentioned in the article --Six 7 8 00:12, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Useful Facts About Lincoln

There used to be a trivia section in this article that had useful information like Lincoln's height, the fact that he was the first president with a beard and such. It's gone now because of this misguided moratorium on trivia sections. Can we get this useful information back please? I don't care if we don't call it "trivia," or whatever. -- 66.135.149.195 00:08, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you, it's really interesting to know how many feet Lincoln was. TheBlazikenMaster 22:10, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, if someone wants to know whether a President of the United states was left handed or right handed, he should find this information in the biggest Internet Encyclopedia! --Six 7 8 00:12, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

That's not something important as how many feet Lincoln was. How many feet he was is something none or few of the other presidents have in common with Lincoln. TheBlazikenMaster 15:00, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Honestly, it should be in there. I spent like 15 minutes wandering around Wikipedia looking for how tall he was, and I couldn't find it so I had to look elsewhere. It should be included somehow, if only because it puts him as the tallest/one of the tallest presidents. Nblinknpark41 03:00, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, there must be a way without adding a trivia section. TheBlazikenMaster 17:23, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

If it hadn't been taken I would have recommended www.wikitrivia.com and then a link to that. Would have been nice, and in keeping information in the right places.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.212.100.60 (talk • contribs).

Today, Bill Clinton’s page notes Clinton was among the tallest presidents of the United States. As Abe Lincoln was the tallest, I really think the article can afford to mention it. I mean, why ever not? Bossk-Office 20:27, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Lincoln's "Lost Speech"

Should Lincoln's "Lost Speech" be mentioned (May 29, 1856, in Bloomington, Illinois)? It "may have been the most influential oration delivered in America since the founding of the Republic," and it is considered a major event in strengthening the new Republican party and furthering Lincoln's political career. See: http://members.aol.com/RVSNorton1/Lincoln63.html which is linked in the WP articles on Oratory and Eloquence.

If the Lost Speech is mentioned (and perhaps even if not), Wilson Tucker's time-travel novel The Lincoln Hunters could be added under "Lincoln in art and popular culture". Its focus is the quest for the Lost Speech. 4granite 03:51, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

So, um, why is the title Abraham Lincoln Life?

Abraham Lincoln redirects here. Was his "real" life name "Life"? WTF? — Lenoxus 00:07, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Never mind, I moved it back. Now to give a welsome and subtle talking-to to the person who moved it in the first place... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lenoxus (talk • contribs) 00:14, 6 February 2007 (UTC).

Lincoln's "Bankruptcy"

http://www.totalbankruptcy.com/celebrity_bankruptcy.htm

Could someone clarify something for me. As I understand it the story goes that Lincoln borrowed money to invest in a store in 1833. The store failed, I don't know if it was formally wound up or even if there was legislation to do that. Lincoln's personal debt became due and the law got involved, a sheriff seizing his possessions. Was this formal insolvency or was it a court judgement to seize assets from a delinquent debtor? I suppose in 1833 it could have been a criminal matter? The story that he took on his former partners debts voluntarily suggests to me it wasn't formal bankruptcy as does his legal and public career - in England it would have been difficult to practice law or take public office as a bankrupt. I'd like to get some clarification on a story which is clouded by his subsequent achivements. —The preceding Johnnybriggs 05:36, 10 February 2007 (UTC) unsigned comment was added by Johnnybriggs (talk • contribs) 05:35, 10 February 2007 (UTC).

sarah

Sarah was born in 1807, not 1805.

function of opening section = summarize his importance

Many readers read only the opening. It has to concisely summarize his important actions, before the war and during the war, covering military and civilian phases. Every sentence is covered in multiple books, so we have to condense here. Rjensen 11:43, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

attacks ... was held against him.

The sentence should read, "Lincoln's attacks on Polk and Taylor came back to haunt him during the Civil War and indeed *were* held against him when he applied for a major patronage job from the new Taylor administration." Easy mistake to make; probably came from the combining of two originally separate sentences. It's so minor I probably wouldn't point it out except that it's an example of the problems of locking a page. If the page were open to edits, minor mistakes like these could be ironed out by casual readers.

Protection and Unprotection

I think we should keep this page on Abe Lincoln PROTECTED —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.12.163.39 (talk) 22:27, 12 February 2007 (UTC).

External Link

Editors,

I am a presidential librarian at the Miller Center of Public Affairs (a research institution affiliated with the University of Virginia). We run a non-partisan, non-profit website on the American Presidency. We have a section on each president that includes an extensive essay on the president and shorter essays on the first lady and each cabinet member. Each essay is vetted by a prominent scholar of that particular president. We also provide quick facts, key events, and links to a growing collection of multimedia materials specific to the president. I believe that a external link to our Lincoln page would be a valuable addition to the Lincoln wiki entry. Please take a look at the following page and if you think it is appropriate, we would appreciate you adding it as an external link.

http://www.millercenter.virginia.edu/index.php/academic/americanpresident/lincoln

Should you choose to put the link on the page, we would prefer the following language:

Extensive essay on Abraham Lincoln and shorter essays on each member of his cabinet and First Lady from the Miller Center of Public Affairs

Best,

Michael Greco —The preceding unsigned comment was added by MillerCenter (talk • contribs) 16:05, 13 February 2007 (UTC).

Another External Link

Another good Lincoln site is http://www.lincolnstudies.com It features a daily blog, book reviews, primary documents, and a discussion board.

Fake Lincoln Quotes

For 160 years, people have been citing quotes falsely or dubiously attributed to Lincoln.

For instance, did Lincoln refer to elements of the U.S. military as "demons from hell" in his first floor speech as a congressman?

One doubts it -- that speech was a carefully constructed legal argument. Would Lincoln have carelessly or deliberately wrecked his own construction? It seems unlikely.

Such words don't appear in the standard record of Lincoln's speech of January 12, 1848.

http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?ammem/mal:@field(DOCID+@lit(d0007400))

The "demons from hell" words, and other dubious verbage, appeared a couple of months later, in a newspaper account by a supposed ear witness who claimed that the standard record omitted all the really bad stuff that Lincoln actually said.

This account was dismissed at the time as being the work of locofocoists (extremely partisan Democrats, presumably willing to lie about Whig politicians such as Lincoln).

See the book, "Abraham Lincoln: A Press Portrait, His Life and Times from the Original Newspaper Documents of the Union, the Confederacy, and Europe" -- edited by Herbert Mitgang (New York: Fordham University Press, 2000).

Since the "demons from hell" words are of disputed authenticity, the Wikipedia page on Lincoln should either drop those words, or else should indicate that they may or may not be Lincoln's actual words. Skeptic99 23:59, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

This article from the State of Illinois may interest folks who are wondering about the veracity of some quotes attributed to Lincoln.A mcmurray 23:30, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://wiki.alquds.edu/?query=Wikipedia:Introduction"

Demons from Hell quote is authentic says leading biographer

The leading Lincoln specialist on this period (Beveridge) believes Lincoln did say that in his speech but erased the term when he sent it to the printer. Beveridge says: "Obviously Lincoln had been unrestrained while delivering his speech; and, when he came to write out his remarks for the Congressional Globe, had left out the violent part which so incensed the newspaper correspondent." Beveridge goes on: "The version by the newspaper correspondent resembles the language of Giddings and Corwin. The reporter's account was from memory of what he heard Lincoln say, and not from the speech as it afterward appeared in the Globe. Speeches published in the Appendix of the Cong. Globe were always written out, either before or after delivery....Often speeches as delivered differed widely from the printed version in the Globe. (Beveridge, "Lincoln" vol 1 p 430) The Springfield Democratic newspaper (the Register) editorialized:

I think Lincoln will find that he had better remained quiet. He will . . . regret that he voted that' Illinois officers [naming them] 'fell while leading brave Illinoisans to ROBBERY AND DISHONOR . . . "IN AID OF A WAR OF RAPINE AND MURDER". . .; that he has thrown upon the escutcheon of Illinois the stain of having sent six thousand men to Mexico "to record their infamy and shame in the blood of poor, innocent, inoffending people, whose only crime was weakness". . .; that he has declared by his vote that the "God of Heaven has forgotten to defend the weak and innocent, and permitted the strong band of murderers and demons from hell to kill men, women, and children, and lay waste and pillage the land of the just." Rjensen 18:02, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Beveridge

died in 1927. Other historians have since questioned some of his conclusions. His work was notable, but not the final word. Skeptic99 23:56, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Beveridge did a good job (he's the only major biographer who served in Congress), but more to the point: no one disagrees with him. Rjensen 18:36, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

How can you say that "no one disagrees" with Beveridge, when Lincoln himself disagrees with Beveridge? When the State Register's version of the speech is different from Lincoln's version of the speech, then neither version can fairly be claimed as undisputed. Skeptic99 Skeptic99 00:37, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

The section "Antiwar activist" confusingly discusses Lincoln's speech of January 12, 1848, as if it were two different speeches. The first mention of the speech is in the first paragraph, and has a footnote linking to Lincoln's official version, as published in the "Globe". The second graf of the "Antiwar activist" section mentions "an intemperate speech" and should be made clearer to show that this is actually the same speech. The second graf contains a direct quote attributed to Lincoln but not footnoted. A footnote is required. In addition to a second footnote, the first and second grafs of the "Antiwar activist" section should be rewritten to make it clear that they are about two different versions of the same speech, not two different speeches, and the article should also make clear that the second version is the unofficial version published by a virulently anti-Lincoln newspaper, the "State Register", but endorsed by Beveridge, in whose judgment the "demons from hell" words were "obviously" authentic. Skeptic99 00:37, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

The "Antiwar activist" section should at least acknowledge the possibility that maybe Lincoln didn't speak extemporaneously on January 12, 1848 -- but maybe stuck to his prepared text, which he then submitted to the Globe, and which might actually be the valid version of his speech. Skeptic99 00:37, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

dating of last picture of Lincoln

The picture of Lincoln in your article with the caption "last picture" is dated in your caption as April 10, 1865. According to "Lincoln's Greatest Speech: The Second Inaugural" by Ronald C. White, Jr. (Simon & Schuster, 2002) "[the photo] was taken by Alexander Gardner in Washington on Sunday, February 5, 1865 ..." White goes on to say, "For many years the photograph was misdated ..." (page 129, caption of picture). The author, Professor White, is listed on the inside back jacket of his book as the dean of American Religious History at San Francisco Theological Semincary. He offers evidence for his dating in his book. I offer his view as to the dating of this picture for Wikipedia's consideration. 70.108.0.36 15:18, 18 February 2007 (UTC) D.J.J.

Both dates are noted on the image's own page. We had an editor awhile back who was adament that the April date is correct, and she wore out everyone's patience on the matter. Rklawton 15:45, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

And I am not finished yet Lawton....Matter of fact there's a new book coming out soon proving the validity of tthe last picture shown in death, of mine that you personally tried (unsuccesfully) to trash, taken by Bachelder,By G-D, I will have the last word over you and those other doubters! cathytreks 15:08, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

• We don't care what your last word is; what matters, and the only thing that has mattered all along, is reliable sources; when this new book comes out, we'll evaluate it as we would any source. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 17:44, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Marfan's?

[1] Just from looking at Abe's stature and body structure, it's apparent that he could very well have had Marfan's Syndrome, and historians are now beginning to suspect he did. Should the article reflect this? --Captain Wikify ^Argh! 20:18, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

I also read this http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A3065140

In 1959, Marfan syndrome was diagnosed in a distant relative of Lincoln's (a third cousin four times removed). Sharing 1/4048th of Lincoln's genetic material, it is difficult to ascribe much significance to this fact. Although the world's greatest authority on Marfan syndrome thinks it's '50-50' that Lincoln had the condition, other geneticists think it unlikely

Marfan page said he didn't therefore ths statement shold have that added on:"It is often debated whether Abraham Lincoln had Marfan syndrome, an autosomal dominant disorder of the connective tissue characterized by long limbs and great stature, among other things."--Nateinbliss 14:41, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Assassination

In the section on the assassination, it is stated: "On stage, a character named Lord Dundreary (played by Harry Hawk) who has just been accused of ignorance in regards to the manners of good society, replies, ... " Hawk was playing the part of Asa Trenchard, not Lord Dundreary. Sfcjack 03:03, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

• Good eye. I made the correction. Edeans 16:51, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Why are the underlying conspiracy and the conspirators (other than Booth obviously) omitted from the assassination story? Their existence (and names) should be included as an integral part of an accurate Lincoln assassination story. This section of the Lincoln entry lacks depth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Diegomgarcia (talk • contribs) 19:38, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

• Because that is covered in a separate article, Abraham Lincoln assassination, which is cross-referenced here. JGHowes ^talk - 19:51, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Ethiopian ancestry

Well, rather than continue a cycle of reversion, let's discuss the issue of Lincoln's ancestry. For starters, I see here no authoritative Lincoln scholars here that supports this claim. The sources provided for this claim do not come from reliable academic sources. Therefore, it is my believe that these claims do not belong in an encyclopedic article about Lincoln. The sources provided are more along the line of "conspiracy theory" cruft that non-scholarly folks put out from time to time in order to sell books. Rklawton 15:44, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

I reiterate your point that the issue has not made it into any scholarly biography of Lincoln that I am aware of. Apparently there was an attack of this sort made on Lincoln during the 1864 election by an anonymous source (the same type of charges were made against Hamlin). However it seems well beyond the scope of this article to go into the minutiae of unfounded campaign claims.

The challenge for anyone wishing to include the article would be to describe exactly what research was done by Dr. Leroy Vaughan et al (the sources quoted in the article)to arrive at their conclusions. The place to do this, first, is here on the Talk Pages. Tom 17:37, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

• I am extremely suspicious of the claim of Ethiopian ancestry for Lincoln. While it is not that unusual for whites in the US to have some African ancestry, the chances of Ethiopian ancestry for Lincoln are so infinitely small as to not be worth any serious consideration without extraordinary proof. Ethiopia (also formerly called "Abyssinia") was an independent kingdom all during the period African slavery was legal in European nations and their colonies. It was also rather isolated during that time. The vast majority of Africans taken into slavery and transported to the Americas were West Africans. The comparatively few East Africans sent to the Americas came from the Portugese colony (later nation) of Mozambique, which is several hundred miles south of Ethiopia. I am assuming, of course, that the contributor pushing for this section is referring to Ethiopian ancestry occurring during the historic period. As I understand it, many anthropologists now believe that all modern humans are descended from a small interrelated group of humans that lived in what we now call Ethiopia about 250,000 years ago. In that sense, we are all part Ethiopian. Edeans 19:42, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

well you are right that we all maybe part ethiopians. Anyway the reality is we should try to come up with sources that directly disagree with Lincoln's Ethiopian background. I have studied a lot about Ethiopia but even i don't know enough about Lincoln's relation with Ethiopia as much as the biographer of Lincoln Mr.William Herndon who said Lincoln has Ethiopian ancestry. So it is hard for me disagree with the biographer of Lincoln until i find some extraordinary evidence doing so.

Secondly, about the above comment regarding slavery, i don't think Mr. Herndon or others implied Lincoln's ancestry being from that of slaves. I think he and others who study the tri-racial phenomena are connecting Lincoln's lineage to a wider range of ethnic mix, including Native American. Let us try to bring atleast equivalent sources to disagree with the biographer's claim before we remove that section again. Thank you. Jack248 19:42, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

I support keeping this information out. Despite what Jack248 says, there no reputable scholarship supporting this claim. There is also no need to provide sources refuting this claim because the claim is so far out there that no reputable scholar has bothered to refute it. This info simply doesn't belong.--Alabamaboy 01:12, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Well ofcourse everyone else would support its deletion because this is taboo in the West so no one would like to see this here. Also i don't think concensus should overrule clear evidence. If we are going base this on concensus, of course it will be deleted because nobody in the WEST would like to see an American President who has an African lineage. Do what you want, i guess. But i think it is not right to delete this detail about Lincoln given by his own biographer, just because of our opinion and feelings.Jack248 01:12, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I am willing to wait for any evidence that directly states Lincoln long ancestry is NOT Ethiopian. I also suggest reading about Melungeon I really hope someone can give evidence to disprove Lincoln's biographer. Please, we don't need just guessworks, opinions, or conjecture in here. I will wait.Jack248 01:29, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

That's not how it works here. Wikipedia's standards aren't that we prove negatives as you suggest we do above. We don't get to say "XYZ" is "ABC" and it stays that way until you prove it isn't. Instead, we must source positives to reliable and verifiable sources. In the case of Lincoln, a crackpot with an M.D. and an M.B.A. has nothing to add to the work of dozens of Ph.D. historians. Without reliable and verifiable sources, any affirmative statement regarding Lincoln's ancestry is not appropriate. Rklawton 02:35, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

• As an American "white" man with documented African ancestry, I have no problem with Lincoln being identified as part African, just as long as there credible evidence for such a claim. That simply does does not exist (for the historical period, anyway). I have recently read Herndon's Abraham Lincoln, which does not postulate any African ancestry for Lincoln. I also have the understanding that the Melungeon people have West African ancestry, not East African. Edeans 08:22, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Jack248, please avoid suggesting that we are not allowing this info because it's "taboo" or b/c we're racist. My family is more ethnically diverse than you can even image. In addition, I have no problem accepting info like this on Presidents and others where there are reliable references to support it (such as in the case of Thomas_jefferson#The_Sally_Hemings_controversy). In Lincoln's case, though, the evidence does not rise to the level of Wikipedia standards. I would also add that the consensus appears to be to not add this info.--Alabamaboy 14:47, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, so far i have not read any evidence suggesting the opposite of what Lincoln's own biographer said. It seems like most of the reasoning above appear like this JUST CAN'T BE REAL or along the lines of "no way, there is no chance of this" etc... Well,i hope we can keep our discussion based on evidence and also with fairness for non-Westerner viewpoints. Also the wild claim that Melungeons only have "west African ancesty" is false. Notice that Melugeons have sub-saharan ancestry as well as Middle Eastern. Similarly, the nation that has Semetic groups in Africa is Ethiopia, formerly known as Abyssinia (Which was an empire that stretched from Eastern sub-saharan Africa all the way to southern parts of what we now call the Middle East) Also i am afraid both Abraham Lincoln's biographer and the Melugeons resources affirm Lincoln's Ethiopian ancestry. Also about the third evidence...well insulting the educated man who wrote that book by calling him a "crackpot" is not a very nice thing to say at all. I don't know what more to say about this one. I guess i will wait for somebody else to bring some kind of evidence before i edit the page and put back the resourced info. Thank you and i would really appreciate getting professional reply here. I realize it is a taboo subject but we have to address it in a civilized manner. Thanks. .--Jack248 1:47, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the overwhelming consensus here is to not add the info. Unless you can present evidence which changes the views of editors here, do not add this info back in. Best, --Alabamaboy 17:31, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I will reiterate what another editor has already said -- Herndon DOES NOT in his biography of Lincoln claim that Lincoln's parents had Ethiopian (or any African) ancestry. Tom 17:55, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

First President With Facial Hair

Lincoln was the first president with facial hair, and was the first in a 50 year long streak of Presidents (McKinley and Johnson being the only exceptions)with facial hair, ending with the close of William H. Taft's term. Since then, there has been no presidents with facial hair. Does this bear mentioning in the article? PS. Do Van Buren's fantastic sideburns constitute facial hair? What about John Quincy Adams' slightly less pronounced ones?74.67.228.2 23:24, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

This is irrelevant both Hayes and Garfield sported long beards, both after Lincoln and in the 19th century. McKinley and Johnson? They both came after Lincoln.A mcmurray 23:27, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

You've unfortunately misunderstood. I apologize for any lack of clarity. Lincoln was the first president to sport facial hair unless you count the sideburns of Van Buren and Q. Adams. After Lincoln's presidency, every president, until Woodrow Wilson, had facial hair, except for McKinley and Johnson. 74.67.228.2 23:32, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

They all had facial hair. It's just that some of them chose to shave it off every day or so. Rklawton 23:37, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, 74.67.228.2 [did I number your name right ?]. I think your observation, apart from the arguably included Van Buren and Q. Adams, that Honest Abe was the first American president to shun his Norelco beard burner is worthy of being included in the main article, possibly under a subheading of " Lincoln Trivia. " A category, I am sure, the curious president would have, himself, enjoyed. --Curious2george 00:52, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Ah. Ha at Lawton. I still am not sure it is relevant to the article though interesting trivia, maybe in the article beards?A mcmurray 23:41, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

There's a bit there already, but I would consider it culturally significant enough to merit a place on either Lincoln's or the US Presidents page. The president's style, fashions, and mannerisms can in many ways be considered a representation of more widely pervading attitudes of the time, and thus are important.74.67.228.2 00:12, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Whatever you do don't add a trivia section, I guarantee it will get deleted. See WP:TRIVIA

A mcmurray (talk • contribs) 00:56, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

That is completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

Huh? Just pointing it out. Add it in. I don't care.A mcmurray (talk • contribs) 06:08, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

This is WP:OR. With all due respect, the topic should be closed until someone comes up with a credible citation. Xiner (talk, email) 14:22, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I have very little experience here. Does anyone know where I could find information on whiskers and presidents?74.67.228.2 14:58, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Lincoln's First Law Partner?

I am concerned in the article where it says Lincoln practiced law in 1837 with Stephen T. Logan I cannot find any evidence to back this up but have found multiple references to John T Stuart being his first law partner including Lincoln in his own autobiography.I have also found one reference to a William Herndon as a possible option. Can Anyone confirm who it was Lincoln practiced law with?TAA 07:07, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

• You are correct; numerous sources (including the biography by Lincoln's third and final partner, William Herndon) confirm that John T. Stuart was Lincoln's original law partner. Logan was his second partner. I made the correction. Thank you for your post. Edeans 00:27, 2 March 2007 (UTC)