Talk:3HO

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Dr. Trilochan Singh's creditbility:

Please check these links for references and credible evidence of Dr. Trilochan Singh's prominence as a Sikh scholar:

Dr. Trilochan Singh wrote 27 articles on Sikh history and philosophy for the respected [1]"The Sikh Review" established in 1953. Dr. Trilochan Singh was in fact one of the founding editors of The Sikh Review.

The Sikh Review, is published by 'The Sikh Cultural Center, Calcutta', and was founded in the summer of 1953 by a small group of dedicated scholars and devout Sikhs. Among them were: Sr. Raghbir Singh Bir, Capt. Bhag Singh, Mrs. Kuldip H. Singh (all deceased), later joined by Sr. Mohan Singh Kalra, Dr. Hari Singh Bindra, Dr. Trilochan Singh, D.Litt., Bhai Sahib Sardar Kapur Singh, ICS and Sr. Kulraj Singh, IRS (also deceased).


Please check these links for references and credible evidence of Dr. Trilochan Singh's prominence as a Sikh scholar: —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.44.182.82 (talk) 19:18, 3 April 2010 (UTC) http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Gurdwara_Reform_Movement During the Gurdwara Reform Movement, the Sikh leaders started a publication that was named Akali. From this paper and its policy the leaders began to be called Akalis, in view of which they formed the present Akali party. These Nihang Akalis should not be confused with the members of the Akali party.’ The Turban And The Sword’' , by Dr. Trilochan Singh. (Page 402 http://www.patshahi10.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=262:the-history-and-compilation-of-the-dasm-granth-part-1-dr-trilochan-singh&catid=34:english&Itemid=63 The History and Compilation of the Dasm Granth (Part 1) - Dr. Trilochan Singh http://www.gurmat.info/sms/smspublications/amritkihain/ Amrit Ki Hain - The Meaning of Sikh Baptism by Bhai Randheer Singh (translation by Dr. Trilochan Singh) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.44.182.82 (talk) 05:37, 3 April 2010 (UTC) http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=MzDtlI7p5qkC&pg=PA11&lpg=PA11&dq=dr+trilochan+singh&source=bl&ots=3GxTkXJoeP&sig=Q1xnlQMZOLT0QVSrNAAEoYH-WDU&hl=en&ei=dNK2S9aXMKG80gSO1aU1&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CCkQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=dr%20trilochan%20singh&f=false Guru Sant Singh —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.44.182.82 (talk) 06:35, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]


Concerning Dr. Trilochan Singh and Yogi Bhajan

To: Guru Fatha Singh Khalsa; you have obviously never talked to traditional Punjabi Sikhs about Dr. Trilochan Singh. Dr Trilochan Singh is a very well respected writer of Sikh history and religion. Search google and you'll find his writings at many traditional Sikh websites and read his entire book "Sikhism and Tantric Yoga" at Gurmukhyoga.com. My Punjabi Gursikh wife has high regard for Dr. Trilochan Singh. She is from the same home town in Ludhiana Punjab as he is. She read Dr. Trilochan Singh's biography of Bai Sahib Randheer Singh when she was a child and it inspired her greatly. I think you need to do more research on the values and practices of Yogi Harbhajan if you’re writing his biography. To begin with YB's surname is Puri and my wife instantly said when I told her this, "oh he is a mona Punjabi" these families are more Hindu than Sikh. If you google Puri you'll find that the Puri families are staunch Hindus. I think you'll find YB was really more of a Hindu than a Sikh. If you also search on Gurmukhyoga.com you'll find a post with pictures of Hindu gods in and around 3-HO Gurdwaras and prominently displayed at Siri Singh Sahib's (Yogi Bhajan's) estate. I spent two years in India recently and no one I met in Amritsar or the Punjab respected Yogi Harbhajan as a Sikh or even as a Yogi for that matter. Gurcharan Singh Tohra, ex president of the SGPC who you say supported YB, was nothing more than a crooked politician. I met the man in 1983 and he could hardly speak a word of English. I think any support he gave YB was because he saw all these white people supposedly converting to Sikhi but he didn't have the capacity or desire to understand what was really going on with all the sacrilegious tantric and hindu practices of Yogi Harbhajan. Gurcharan Singh Tohra was also completely disgraced during the blue star operation when he came out of the Darbar Sahib with his hands held up and surrendered to Indira Ghandi’s hooligans who attacked the Golden Temple. I am putting back sections about Dr. Trilochan Singh as it adds some balance and truth to this article on Yogi Bhajan.Guru Sant Singh (talk) 14:43, 21 March 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.44.182.82 (talk) [reply]


Dear Guru Sant Singh -

I know plenty about Trilochan Singh. I read his slander about Yogi Bhajan years ago. I also noticed that the man was so riled about Yogi Bhajan's work that he ended up re-writing his biography of Bhai Sahib Randheer Singh to edit out any reference to yoga. This is not scholarly conduct. This is polemics. I will take my Sikh studies from Yogi Bhajan and Siri Guru Granth Sahib and Bhai Gurdas over your wife's and Tirlochan Singh's slanderous opinions any day.~~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Guru Fatha Singh Khalsa (talk • contribs) 00:39, 4 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]



To: Guru Fatha Singh Khalsa

If Dr. Trilochan Singh has no credibility, in your opinion, then why is he referred to several times as a Sikh historian and scholar in articles on SikhiWiki which is of course a 3HO website and one you have yourself promoted? Why have you never posted Dr. Trilochan Singh's opposing views in this article about Yogi Bhajan when it is clear that Dr. Trilochan Singh is a respected scholar of Sikh history? I was around Yogi Bhajan for 30 years. I lived 100 yards from his residence in New Mexico and worked with Yogi Bhajan on many business deals and served as a sevadar at Guru Ram Das Ashram from 1981 to 1990 where I was in close contact with YB and witnessed his corrupt activities and sacriligious tantric practices. YB in fact sold me one of his houses in 1992 and I lived there for 17 years. I discovered “Sikhism and Tantric Yoga” during my two years in India. Why was “Sikhism and Tantric Yoga” hid from us by Yogi Bhajan? Dr. Trilochan Singh's book has been a real eye-opener for me to say the least and makes complete sense when I think about the last thirty years of my life with Yogi Bhajan. I suggest you read it again carefully and I think you will see that all the problems happening right now in 3HO are a direct result of Yogi Bhajan's corrupt Tantric yoga practices. [2]Link to entire book.

Signed Guru Sant Singh —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.44.182.82 (talk) 06:49, 4 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]


Dear Guru Sant Singh Khalsa -

I am not going to go where you are are going. TS's diatribe about Yogiji is one of the bitterest pieces of pulp I ever had the opportunity to read. Moreover I have to say Sikh historiography and scholarship has done little to ease the plight of the common Sikh or anybody at all for that matter, and I don't honestly care much for it.

Yogi Bhajan stood in a different class from these people and my impression is that TS was bitterly envious. He and his cohorts tried very hard to make inroads, to poach on Yogi Bhajan's students, to create doubts in their minds in the late 70s and early 80s. Mostly, they were spectacularly unsuccessful.

Jesus had a lovely saying: Judge a tree by its fruits. Judging by its fruits - his yoga teachings, 3HO, his interfaith initiatives, Peace Prayer Day, his revival of Sikh spirit, his work for peace in Punjab, his anti-drug work, his contributions to the healing arts, Miri Piri Academy, and his many notable and inspiring students - this was a very lovely tree indeed! Guru Fatha Singh Khalsa (talk) 03:30, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]



To: Guru Fatha Singh Khalsa

Since you are quoting Jesus I will refer to the entire bible quotation about this subject as stated in Matthew 7:15 through Matthew 7:23:

A Tree and Its Fruit

15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. 21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

I would say Yogi Bhajan’s fruit looks pretty rotten at this point if you consider the corrupt leaders in 3HO that Yogi Bhajan hand picked for the Unto Infinity Board and Sikh Dharma leadership. If you’re not already aware of the current corruption in the inner halls of 3HO then I will include here a quotation from MSS Guru Terath Singh whom you no doubt respect since you have included in this article’s discussion forum below, a long rebuttal he wrote in 1977 against the Time magazine article which was highly critical of Yogi Bhajan. Yes indeed, "Time will tell" if Yogi Bhajan was a false prophet and whether he produced good or bad fruit. Personally I would rather place my bets for salvation on the traditional values and teachings of Sikhism as exemplified in the lives and teachings of the Sikh Gurus, the scriptures of the Siri Guru Granth Sahib and Dr. Trilochan Singh’s writings rather than the sacrilegious hodgepodge of tantric and shakti cult rubbish which Yogi Bhajan espouses and no traditional Sikh supports. Signed Guru Sant Singh

From: gt khalsa <gtkhalsa_2000@yahoo.com> Subject: [khalsa-council] A Global Settlement To: khalsa-council@mail-list.com Date: Sunday, March 28, 2010, 6:24 PM

Sat Nam.

If I were a young man searching for a spiritual path - as I was at one time - and read the emails that have been posted for the world to read over the past year, I would see what appeared to be one group that was a bunch of crooks and the other that was a bunch of very angry, self-righteous, old people. The only thing they would have in common would be their spiritual practices. I would, of course, quickly move on with my search. This is the real danger that the SSS's legacy is facing.

If this goes on, I expect that there will be a well funded SDI with very few people. There will be a SDW with many more people, but with inadequate, ongoing funding to do much of anything in the years ahead………

M.S.S. Guru Terath Singh

Guru Terath Singh is right, of course. That is why people like me are investing in keeping the teachings, the authenticity and the legacy alive. Guru Fatha Singh Khalsa (talk) 16:12, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]


To Guru Fatha Singh Khalsa:

You seem to be overlooking the obvious 800 pound gorilla in the room. [3]The actions of YB’s students prove the result of Yogi Bhajan's corrupt teachings. In fact, Yogi Bhajan set up the insane power structure of the Unto Infinity Board which controls all of the 3HO finances. Yogi Bhajan installed five corrupt people who are not even Sikhs anymore and who control the Unto Infinity Board for life! Guru Terath Singh has so astutely alluded to Yogi Bhajan's folie and the danger of the truth coming out about Yogi Bhajan’s legacy. Signed Guru Sant Singh Signed Guru Sant Singh —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.44.182.82 (talk) 06:49, 4 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Bias and NPOV[edit]

The content of this page sounds like it was taken directly from a 3HO brochure - it is clearly biased, or at a minimum, one-sided. I will mark it as such.

A simple Google search for "3HO" reveals that this group is considered by many to be a dangerous cult. See the following links for more information about this perspective: http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/groups/h/3ho/ http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/66.html?1101310715 http://www.rickross.com/groups/3ho.html

If the original author, or any other contributor, makes changes to fix this article, great. Otherwise, I'll edit once I've had a chance to do some proper research. --205.156.188.254 18:33, 7 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know much about 3HO but I don't see the problem with the current article. It's a stub (i.e. it contains very little information) but there is nothing biased about the information contained within. It might not contain information about the controversies, but the article itself isn't biased. I'll remove the tag for now. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 19:55, 7 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Reprinting a controversial organisations claims about itself without mentioning it's detractors *is* unbalanced and dangerous. Sukh is clearly wrong on this one - the information presented in the stub may have been factual accurate but is presented with a biassed 'spin', and besides, omission of the detracors opinions is bias through absence of dissent.


In my edit, I tried to address the difference between 3HO and Sikh Dharma as organizations, given that 3HO does present itself as not directly associated with Sikhi. I did not do as well of a job as I would have liked, but maybe someone else can expand upon that. I also added a little to the cult section so it looks less like a "jab" and more like serious criticism. Sources added as appropriate - I used the footnote style because it appeared to be in use in the Sikhism main article. Lastly I changed the description of Yogi Bhajan, since the main page is more appropriate for his names and titles, and instead described him as founder of 3HO. I hope to keep working on this article over time, but this is all I had the chance to do for now and I wanted to make sure that I was going in the right direction. Harsimrankaur 19:48, 5 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Someone removed any reference to it being a new religious movement. Whether you agree with the "cult" accusation or not, I believe it should be included somewhere, possibly in a criticism section? I'm going to work on this. P.S. If you disagree with something, talk it out... Harsimrankaur 00:27, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I am reverting and then editing. Folks, criticism is valid, as is praise. If all references to criticism are removed, I can't say that the article has NPOV. I did notice one unsourced bit from before that is harsh criticism and will move it around and/or possibly remove it if I don't find a source. If you have an issue, please put it on this page. I want to keep this article neutral and informative. Harsimrankaur (talk) 17:08, 4 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I ended up deleting the controversial portion about the SSS title altogether, as it belongs on the Yogi Bhajan page, not on this one, since in every reference I could find, the title was not bestowed upon him by 3HO. Thanks for your patience. Harsimrankaur (talk) 17:28, 4 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Further Reading Section[edit]

I feel the "further reading" section might be better placed below the "detractors" section, so that Internet resources on both sides of the issue are kept together. What do you think? I'm going to wait a couple weeks for input before making any changes there. Thanks for your input! Harsimrankaur (talk) 09:12, 27 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Upon further consideration, I believe a German-language book does not fit well in the English version of Wikipedia. I also noticed that Alma Mater Studiorum spammed other articles with the same information. If the book is later translated into English, it will likely be an excellent addition to any further reading section relating to Kundalini Yoga, Yogi Bhajan, and 3HO, but until then it would be better included on a German-language article on 3HO. 71.107.132.78 (talk) 02:24, 1 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

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3HO and Sikh Dharma International[edit]

3HO and Sikh Dharma International are two separate nonprofit organizations started by Harbhajan Singh Khalsa, aka Yogi Bhajan. Until recently, the organizations each had separate Wikipedia entries. In May 2018, the Sikh Dharma entry content was deleted and the page turned into an automatic redirect to the main Sikhism entry. I have suggested that it would be more appropriate to redirect that page to 3HO, or to provide a disambiguation page. That discussion is ongoing at the Talk:Sikh Dharma page.

To keep the discussion all in one place, I suggest we use the existing discussion thread at the Talk:Sikh Dharma page. I will post additional content there to move the discussion forward.

- Lapith (talk) 20:02, 13 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Credibility of 3HO being a Sikh organization or a sect of Sikhism needs to be discussed, and possibly fixed[edit]

This article's 2nd paragraph, first paragraph under the heading 'Practices', and the first paragraph under 'Reception' clearly mention it is not a Sikh organization having no background of Sikhi either. 3HO is an organization spread vastly among European and Americas. However, there hasn't been any trace of 3HO practices in Sikhi. The Sikh organization (as mentioned under Reception) strongly condemned 3HO having relation to Sikhi. I don't see why someone would link it to Sikhi considering Wikipedia has neutral-content policy. Questions regarding how and why can be answered from my part. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.242.96.75 (talk) 01:14, 15 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The 3HO movement is discussed as a sect of Sikhism in numerous neutral sources, including the Encyclopedia Britannica and other sources cited in the article.[1][2][3][4] The organization is known as "Sikh Dharma in the Western Hemisphere" and considers itself a branch of Sikhism. I understand that mainstream orthodox Sikhs consider 3HO to be a heretical cult. Do you have any neutral source for the notion that 3HO should not be included among the Wikipedia articles on Sikhism?

I do note that you are correct, and the current article does not include much in the way of details about 3HO practices drawn from Sikhism. That is largely because hostile editors have deleted content, some of which probably needs to be restored. I would invite you to join the discussion at Talk:Sikh Dharma to determine how best to incorporate that content. - Lapith (talk) 21:24, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Eleanor Nesbitt (2016). Sikhism: A Very Short Introduction. Oxford University Press. pp. 101–102. ISBN 978-0-19-106277-3.
  2. ^ Sects in Sikhism, Encyclopedia Britannica
  3. ^ Pashaura Singh; Louis E. Fenech (2014). The Oxford Handbook of Sikh Studies. Oxford University Press. pp. 8, 358, 515–522. ISBN 978-0-19-100411-7.
  4. ^ Kristen Haar; Sewa Singh Kalsi (2009). Sikhism. Infobase Publishing. pp. 9–14. ISBN 978-1-4381-0647-2.

Bias against[edit]

This page seems to have been the site of an edit war. The “reception” section needs a citation, and to be reworded. The whole article needs a more neutral tone. -.+ThAYYta+.- (talk) 14:58, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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